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Murrey Math


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Murrey Math

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We need a discussion on Murrey Math and implementing it into your trading.

I know many of you had not heard of Murrey Math Lines (MML) prior to reading my blog or this forum. I must also admit I only recently discovered it, so we will all learn together!

First, let me give a shout out to ns_karthik over on forexfactory:
https://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=159471

It was his posts that got me interested in learning more about MML, and as soon as I started playing with it I was immediately hooked.

From my blog you probably know I am not a fan of pivot points or fibonacci numbers, simply because I think there are too many of them and they end up covering your entire chart. You can find a reason to trade/not trade every few ticks it seems. I know that many traders are extremely successful using these methods, and that goes to my next point.

Successful trading is all about confidence. If you have confidence in pivot points and fib retracements, then you can make them work. If you have confidence in Murrey Math Lines, you can make them work. I believe this is mostly true of any system. It's when your confidence starts to falter, for instance due to holes in the method, that trouble arises.

So, let's get back on topic and discuss Murrey Math Lines!


You can download the MML indicator for NinjaTrader in our File Sharing/Downloads section:


Attached to this post you'll also find a RAR archive with a PowerPoint presentation and a Word doc with a lot of very useful information for trading MML's.

I'll update this thread more soon...

Mike

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First, it's a good idea to memorize what each MML represents.



This graphic illustrates the following:
8/8: Hardest line to rise above (overbought)
7/8: Fast reverse line (weak)
6/8: Pivot reverse line
5/8: Upper trading range
----------------------------------------
4/8: Major reversal line
----------------------------------------
3/8: Lower trading range
2/8: Pivot reverse line
1/8: Fast reverse line (weak)
0/8: Hardest line to fall below (oversold)

Price is between 3/8 and 5/8 MML's about 43% of the time.

Here is another graphic illustrating the buy/sell options:



As you start observing the interaction between price and MML's, you'll start to notice some patterns. Take a look at these:



What this is showing us is that many times, if price is above the 5/8 line and falling, it will generally stop and consolidate around 5/8 first before heading lower. The same is true in the opposite direction: if price is below the 3/8 line and rising, it will generally stop and consolidate around the 3/8 line before heading higher.

On top of that, if price is between the 5/8 line and 6/8 line and heading higher, the tendency is to bounce off/reverse off the 6/8 line and retest 5/8 before heading higher. The same is true for shorts, if price is between the 3/8 line and 2/8 line and heading lower, it tends to bounce off the 2/8 line and retest 3/8 before heading lower.

Why does price do this? Remember, price is between the 3/8 and 5/8 line about 43% of the time. So before it jumps outside of its comfort zone, it needs to be sure (hence the retest).

More soon...

Mike

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Now let's take a quick look at what happens when price moves above 8/8 or below 0/8. This does not occur too often, but when it does it's important to know what to expect.



The above illustration tells us the following: If price moves above 8/8, 75% of the time the price will reverse off the +1/8 line and retest 8/8 before moving higher to +2/8. Similarly, if price falls below 0/8, 75% of the time the price will reverse off the -1/8 line and retest 0/8 before moving lower to -2/8.

Now, if price moves beyond the +1/8 or -1/8 lines, then 95% of the time it will reverse when it hits +2/8 or -2/8. Remember, the market was already in overbought (8/8) or oversold (0/8) mode, so once we push that to the extreme (+2/8 or -2/8) it is extremely unlikely (95% chance) to reverse.

Check out this illustration to see it demonstrated:



I hope this has been a helpful exercise in better understanding Murrey Math Lines!

Mike

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Wow. 75 % and 95% probabilities. You got my attention ...

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very interesting, but what if it is just optical illusion, the way our mind is trying to do grouping against the lines? What if we use not 1/8, but 1/10, will we be able to see consolidations, bouncing against certain lines? I see it useful because it forces mind to be predictive and be prepared for certain price actions, play scenarios during trading, etc. I know MM is used by E-signal to establish targets for the trades. I don't see why not. (-:

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record100 View Post
very interesting, but what if it is just optical illusion, the way our mind is trying to do grouping against the lines? What if we use not 1/8, but 1/10, will we be able to see consolidations, bouncing against certain lines? I see it useful because it forces mind to be predictive and be prepared for certain price actions, play scenarios during trading, etc. I know MM is used by E-signal to establish targets for the trades. I don't see why not. (-:

I will leave it to the math scholars to determine why certain mathematics principles work. But I think when applied to trading, you should go with what makes you confident and comfortable.

For me, I felt I was missing a piece of the puzzle before I started using MML's. Why did price reverse out of no where? etc. MML can answer that question for me when price is reversing right off a MML level.

So for some people, they can find the same comfort in pivots or fibs or counting waves, etc. For me, it is Murrey Math. I think everyone should find what they can relate to the most and use that.

Mike

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Here is a 60 minute ZN 09-09 chart showing 6/12 to 6/16.



I've colored my chart the same way as the above graphics are illustrated to try and make it easier.

There are a lot of lines on this chart, but that is because I widened the view to show you more of the MML's. In a normal view you would see less lines because price is so far away from those lines they don't need to be on the chart.

I don't normally have a 60 minute chart up. However, I was noticing that by stepping back and looking at MML from this perspective, there was a lot more correlation with price against the MML's than say there was on my 6765 volume chart, which is normally my biggest chart for trading the ZN.

I was happy with the correlation of price and MML at this time frame. The MML's did a good job at each pivot/reversal, with the exception of the last move which is not seen on this chart. The penetration of the 6/8 line (magenta) should have not reversed until the 8/8 line (blue). Instead, it reversed at 7/8 (yellow). Now, if you advanced the chart a few more hours (off the screen shot), you will see price did move up to 8/8 like it was supposed to.

Clearly, trading solely based on MML is not an option. More researched is needed.

Mike

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Here is a 60m ES 09-09 for 6/12 to 6/19.



The initial consolidation at 4/8 is consistent with the MML theory, then we fall down to 3/8 which is hard to break the first time on a down move (remember, price is between 3/8 and 5/8 43% of the time). Once it's clear we're not going to reverse off the 3/8 line, we head lower to the 2/8 line and bounce between 2/8 and 3/8. That's where we are today.

If I were to try and predict the price action for Monday, I would say that the 900-905 area should hold and we should bounce off of it and head up to the 925 area. If there is a big push up, we could see 935.

However, if it doesn't hold, we'll see a test of 875 before rebounding higher.

I do not like to predict the market, I am just doing this for entertainment sake to see how my understanding of MML will apply in predicting the future price of the ES.

Mike

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It looks like Murrey Math does not work with Range charts. I wonder if anyone else has this problem?

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Same here Eternum.

So I keep a one minute with MM on it to see if I can get used to the levels.

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Eternum View Post
It looks like Murrey Math does not work with Range charts. I wonder if anyone else has this problem?

The EOT version does.

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Thanks Mike.

The EOT stuff are impressive looking.

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Eternum View Post
It looks like Murrey Math does not work with Range charts. I wonder if anyone else has this problem?

I will post an update this afternoon or tomorrow, that fix the range problem.

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Thanx Prester and Mike,

i look today at MML on 16 Minute and 32 Minute for Daily and 64 Minute for Weekly S/R Level i found it looks very nice ... So i removed my rpc to clean up the charts ...

what is on range, tick and volume charts a good calculation to get an good overview ... i think this is a importent point of how to use mml correctly ...


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Hey that'd be super Prtester

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i found this on ff

if new code there will insert

 
Code
    /**if(AlertOn && NewBar()){
      if((High[0] >= mml[12]) || (Low[0] >= mml[12]))
         Alert(AlertPrefix+"MM[+2/8] SELL: TP1 @ 8/8, TP2 @ 7/8");
      else
      if((High[0] >= mml[11]) && (High[0] < mml[12]) || (Low[0] >= mml[11]) && (Low[0] < mml[12]))
         Alert(AlertPrefix+"MM[+1/8] SELL: TP1 @ 8/8th, TP2 @ 7/8");
      else
      if((High[0] >= mml[10]) && (High[0] < mml[11]) || (Low[0] >= mml[10]) && (Low[0] < mml[11]))
         Alert(AlertPrefix+"MM[8/8] If downtrend, SELL & Exit @ 6/8th");
      else
      if((High[0] >= mml[9]) && (High[0] < mml[10]) || (Low[0] >= mml[9]) && (Low[0] < mml[10]))
         Alert(AlertPrefix+"MM[7/8] If downtrend, SELL & Exit @ 4/8th");
      else
      if((High[0] <= mml[0]) || (Low[0] <= mml[0]))
         Alert(AlertPrefix+"MM[-2/8] BUY: TP1 @ 0/8, TP2 @ 2/8");
      else
      if((High[0] <= mml[1]) && (High[0] > mml[0]) || (Low[0] <= mml[1]) && (Low[0] > mml[0]))
         Alert(AlertPrefix+"MM[-1/8] BUY: TP1 @ 0/8th, TP2 @ 2/8");
      else
      if((High[0] <= mml[2]) && (High[0] > mml[1]) || (Low[0] <= mml[2]) && (Low[0] > mml[1]))
         Alert(AlertPrefix+"MM[0/8] If uptrend, BUY & Exit @ 2/8th");
      else
      if((High[0] <= mml[3]) && (High[0] > mml[2]) || (Low[0] <= mml[3]) && (Low[0] > mml[2]))
         Alert(AlertPrefix+"MM[1/8] If uptrend, BUY & Exit @ 4/8th");
      }
            **/

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Ok guys here is the deal, this is not fully tested, but should work on Range, and Volume Charts, I include some Bool in case you want the pivots to be calculated Hourly. When you guys think is ready we can move it to the download section.

Regards

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Prtester...Thanks!

I have it up and running and jumped back and forth between different range quantities and times and it worked no matter what.

Really appreciate the level descriptions too!



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Poocher View Post
Prtester...Thanks!

I have it up and running and jumped back and forth between different range quantities and times and it worked no matter what.

Really appreciate the level descriptions too!


Attachment 280

Also I round to nearest tick all the levels, I really hate the .021 or so :-)

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PrTester,

Thank you for all of your work on this indicator!! I hope you don't mind, I made a few changes for my personal use and wanted to share in case anyone else benefits from them.

Here is my version, which adds:

- Ability to use Right Margin on chart
- Ability to color the Text Labels differently than the line colors
- Raises the Text Label by 2px so it doesn't touch the line
- Right-aligns the MML text (0/8, 1/8, 2/8 etc)
- Sets default colors to match the colors presented earlier in this thread
- Sets ZOrder to -1 which puts the MML's behind price bars instead of on top

NOTE: I just made the last change a few minutes after I uploaded, so please re-download the indicator...

Mike

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sorry can not export can someone insert .... if you want

 
Code
                Add(new Plot(Color.Red,        "-2/8 - BUY: TP1 @ 0/8, TP2 @ 2/8"));
                Add(new Plot(Color.Red,        "-1/8 - BUY: TP1 @ 0/8th, TP2 @ 2/8"));
                Add(new Plot(Color.Red,        "0/8 - If uptrend, BUY & Exit @ 2/8th"));
                Add(new Plot(Color.Red,        "1/8 - If uptrend, BUY & Exit @ 4/8th"));
                Add(new Plot(Color.Red,        "2/8 - Pivot, Reverse"));
                Add(new Plot(Color.Red,        "3/8 - Bottom - ReEntry Short"));
                Add(new Plot(Color.Red,        "4/8 - Major Support/Resistance Line"));
                Add(new Plot(Color.Red,        "5/8 - Top - ReEntry Long"));
                Add(new Plot(Color.Red,        "6/8 - Pivot, Reverse"));
                Add(new Plot(Color.Red,        "7/8 - If downtrend, SELL & Exit @ 4/8th"));
                Add(new Plot(Color.Red,        "8/8 - If downtrend, SELL & Exit @ 6/8th"));
                Add(new Plot(Color.Red,        "+1/8 - SELL: TP1 @ 8/8th, TP2 @ 7/8"));
                Add(new Plot(Color.Red,        "+2/8 - SELL: TP1 @ 8/8, TP2 @ 7/8"));
            
                Plots[0].Pen = new Pen(Color.Blue, 2);
                Plots[1].Pen = new Pen(Color.Blue, 2);
                Plots[2].Pen = new Pen(Color.Blue, 2);
                Plots[3].Pen = new Pen(Color.Blue, 2);
                Plots[4].Pen = new Pen(Color.White, 2);
                Plots[5].Pen = new Pen(Color.Green, 2);
                Plots[6].Pen = new Pen(Color.DodgerBlue, 2);
                Plots[7].Pen = new Pen(Color.Green, 2);
                Plots[8].Pen = new Pen(Color.White, 2);
                Plots[9].Pen = new Pen(Color.Red, 2);
                Plots[10].Pen = new Pen(Color.Red, 2);
                Plots[11].Pen = new Pen(Color.Red, 2);
                Plots[12].Pen = new Pen(Color.Red, 2);

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Big Mike View Post
PrTester,

Thank you for all of your work on this indicator!! I hope you don't mind, I made a few changes for my personal use and wanted to share in case anyone else benefits from them.

Here is my version, which adds:

- Ability to use Right Margin on chart
- Ability to color the Text Labels differently than the line colors
- Raises the Text Label by 2px so it doesn't touch the line
- Right-aligns the MML text (0/8, 1/8, 2/8 etc)
- Sets default colors to match the colors presented earlier in this thread

Mike

Not at all! do all the mod you want. I think the main idea is that everyone had a nicer, usefull working version :-)

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Prtester View Post
Ok guys here is the deal, this is not fully tested, but should work on Range, and Volume Charts, I include some Bool in case you want the pivots to be calculated Hourly. When you guys think is ready we can move it to the download section.
Regards

Prtester, there is something strange going on in regards of Range bars. I get different lines for different interval settings. To replicate try /NQ and set Range to 5 and then switch to 6. I attached two screenshots to illustrate the problem.

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  #24 (permalink)
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Eternum View Post
Prtester, there is something strange going on in regards of Range bars. I get different lines for different interval settings. To replicate try /NQ and set Range to 5 and then switch to 6. I attached two screenshots to illustrate the problem.

This behavior is kind of expected due to the calculation structure, it uses High?Low from 200 last bars, 200 Bars (5-Range) != 200 Bars(6-Range), hope that explain the issue.

Regards

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  #25 (permalink)
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Murrey Math Line X — MetaTrader 4 Indicator

Murrey Math Line X

Murrey Math Line X MetaTrader indicator — a pivot line indicator that will definitely help every trader that know how to trade with support, resistance and pivot lines. It displays 8 different lines (with possible additional lines) on the main chart, helping you to find the best points to sell, buy and exit the positions.
Input parameters:

  • P (default = 64) — period in bars or in other periods (set by MMPeriod), on which the lines will be calculated. The lower is the number the more current but less accurate calculations will be.
  • MMPeriod (default = 1440) — a basic period in minutes (60 — for hourly pivots, 1440 — for daily pivots, 10080 — for weekly and 43200 — for monthly); if greater than zero, indicator will use P amount of MMPeriod minutes to calculate its lines. If zero, indicator will use P amount of the current chart bars to calculate its lines.
  • StepBack (default = 0) — a shift back for calculating the lines (in the current bars or in number of MMPeriod (if set) minutes).
  • Other parameters — affect only visual parameters of the lines.
It's easy to use Murrey Math Line X. 0/8P and 8/8P lines are the ultimate resistance and support lines — they are very hard to break. 1/8P and 7/8P lines are weak support and resistance lines, but if the price stopped near them, it will reverse and change direction. 2/8P and 6/8P lines are strong reverse points. 3/8P and 5/8P are the bottom and the top of the average trading range respectively; it is very likely that the price will either pierce this range fast or will remain inside it for a long time. 4/8P is a major support and resistance line; sell and buy when the price crosses it for a certain profit. The blue arrow marks the final calculated bar.

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  #26 (permalink)
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Mike,

Thanks for your work on this.

Did Richard give you any indication if he would add the labels or not?

I added the new MML's on top of my EOT MML's. Both sets of MML's seem to auto-adjust over the course of the dya but there are more EOT MML's at the end of the day. Notice in the screenshot, the EOT MML at 69.14 which doesn't have a matching colored MML.

2009-06-23_2315

The main question I have is...
Can the labels be "left justified" so they aren't sitting right on top of current price action at the right edge of the chart?

Todd

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Todd View Post
Mike,

Thanks for your work on this.

Did Richard give you any indication if he would add the labels or not?

I added the new MML's on top of my EOT MML's. Both sets of MML's seem to auto-adjust over the course of the dya but there are more EOT MML's at the end of the day. Notice in the screenshot, the EOT MML at 69.14 which doesn't have a matching colored MML.

2009-06-23_2315

The main question I have is...
Can the labels be "left justified" so they aren't sitting right on top of current price action at the right edge of the chart?

Todd

Yes they can be left justified, would require code changes. I'll look into it if I do any more changes, or maybe PrTester will do them. I like using the right margin chart option for them so am in no hurry to change the code.

The EOT version has more options. Some of which I don't understand, so I am not entirely sure of all the differences between them.

Mike

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  #28 (permalink)
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I also believe there may be a midnight/new day rollover bug.

Twice now, when I had a chart open prior to midnight and midnight came and went, the pivot lines went missing. The text labels remained, oddly enough.

Refreshing the chart actually does NOT bring the lines back. Now two nights in a row, I went to bed before 1am so I am not sure but I feel pretty certain the lines come back @ 1am because they were there waiting for me when I woke up this morning, without refreshing the chart.

I'm using the Hourly setting.



Mike

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  #29 (permalink)
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Here's a 5 min and 60 min on the ZN. Mike and I were getting some different figures.

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  #30 (permalink)
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Mike,

I gotta admit, this murrey math is pretty scarey stuff.

ES snapshot from this morning.

WOW!!!

RJay

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RJay,

I have renko bars but what are "renkomedium" bars?

Todd

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The bottom line is on top?????

The market has moved so far today murrey math has the bottom line on top?????

It is... it really is... top line says bottom of trading range.

See Attachment,

Rjay

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RJay View Post
The bottom line is on top?????

The market has moved so far today murrey math has the bottom line on top?????

It is... it really is... top line says bottom of trading range.

See Attachment,

Rjay

The "lowest" MML goes is -2/8 (Extreme OS -2/8). You are nearing it in that screen shot.

"Bottom of trading range" I think is what you are referring to here (the top line in your screenshot). The trading range is defined as 3/8 to 5/8, where price is 43% of the time.

Also, you might benefit from recalculating the MML's hourly (is option in indicator panel).

Mike

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Here's a look at some of this from today on the 5m:




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  #35 (permalink)
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hey guys,

thanks to all you for your input regard the MML. I've been playing around for the past few days and am really seeing the importance of the MML along with other indicators!!!

I just wanted to ask from the others using the MML, @ time frames have you found the MML the most useful (i.e. 60min chart)


for ZN & 6E charts!!


for me:

6E...MML on 4181 volume charts have been pretty good
ZN...MML on 10946volume charts have been pretty good

thanks in advance for your responses!!!

-suchen

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suchen View Post
I just wanted to ask from the others using the MML, @ time frames have

I think you already know mine, so hopefully you'll get some more responses from other people.

For ZN I use a 6765v for my big chart, and for ES a 10946v. I am also playing with Renko charts, and for ZN it would be 3 tick renko, for ES 4 tick renko. I have to admit I am leaning towards the renko charts to replace my big volume charts.

I only have MML on my big chart.

I also have it set to recalculate MML's hourly. That can make a big difference, so try it both ways.

Mike

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  #37 (permalink)
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I have mine set to hourly also on 3,5,8 and 12 range gbp/usd charts.

Just started using it a few days ago but so far seems to show significant support and resistance areas.

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  #38 (permalink)
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i look at 1 minute and four minute for hourly, 16 minute for daily, 32 minute for weekly and 4 hours for monthly on eurusd ... sometimes is eurusd flat i look gbp currencies they work fine for hourly mml ...

wh

imo mml works better on time based data, with the exception of hourly and range ...

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Poocher View Post
I have mine set to hourly also on 3,5,8 and 12 range gbp/usd charts.

Just started using it a few days ago but so far seems to show significant support and resistance areas.

look at 8 and 16 only ...

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  #40 (permalink)
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thanks Mike for your response!

quick question, how do have it to recalculate on the hourly chart, is that an enhancement you made for your own MML?

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suchen View Post
thanks Mike for your response!

quick question, how do have it to recalculate on the hourly chart, is that an enhancement you made for your own MML?

It is the very first option on the indicator. "Calculate the pivot hourly?"

Mike

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  #42 (permalink)
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wh, how did you come up the time frame of 16min, 32min & 4 hr charts to look when looking @ the EUR/USD?...i see it working pretty well on the 4min & 4181 vol charts

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I like the idea of the 4 minute bar when looking for harmonic or cyclic stuff.

4 minutes is one degree of a day or 1/360. The day being the full circle.

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@pocher thats true

@suchen

i will say 16 is the standard indication/attribut of mml in days so i will have a smaller frame i looked at 16 /2 = 8 and 8 / 2 is 4 or sqrt(16) = 4 ...
the main idea are the trading frames from murrey to copy in a minute anstead of hours or days

if you will look in timeless frames i think


wh

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without words
i will say murrey is the best what i have see
i look for S/R in the higher timeframes or better for goals and then i look at my 4 minute chart and go in and out in my 1 minute chart ...
i buy / sell only in blue line area / red line area see picture or on green line breakouts ...

so i wait in 1 minute the mml chances their conditions i look ... wait wait wait for some pips ...

michael jackson, i will never forget "Thriller" ... i was 7 years old and i had nightmares ... but good song

i forget on 240 minutes i looked if rangeday or trendday ...
if trendday i do not buy against the trend ...

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I just posted a new version, v1.5:
View Download Details - Big Mike Trading Forum

This version adds the ability to left-justify the text labels, as requested.

Enjoy!

Mike

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  #47 (permalink)
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Thanks Mike! It is very useful when the price in narrow range to define the support/resistance

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  #48 (permalink)
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Thanks, Mike..

I had requested this and I appreciate your willingness to modify the code


Todd

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Todd View Post
Thanks, Mike..

I had requested this and I appreciate your willingness to modify the code


Todd

No problem. Also, if the labels appear "short" in length it is because they get will display from their calculation point (Daily, Weekly, Monthly).

So, I have now switched from a Daily to a Weekly (still using hourly to recalculate) and am finding it just as helpful as before, but easier to read. More time will tell.

Mike

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  #50 (permalink)
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Murrey Math Lines for the ES are they plotted on a 24 hour chart??

Thanks
-D4

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  #51 (permalink)
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Mike,

I just started a new thread in programmers paradise asking a question about the murray math indicator. I probably should have just added my question/chart to this thread.

Can you look at that thread? The murray math indicator doesn't seem to be updating hourly.

Todd

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  #52 (permalink)
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MM with the 610T chart.

See how it lines up with the Fib extensions.

100% 127.2%

Rules for drawing fib extensions is that a minimum 50% retrace is a requirement.

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  #53 (permalink)
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You are on write path, Always when price moves and makes extension of previous swing then it find support or resistance in between levels 112.5 and 127.2%. Most of time price Bounce back from this level. You are providing good help for traders community on this forum.

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Big Mike View Post
Here is a 60 minute ZN 09-09 chart showing 6/12 to 6/16.

Attachment 269

I've colored my chart the same way as the above graphics are illustrated to try and make it easier.

There are a lot of lines on this chart, but that is because I widened the view to show you more of the MML's. In a normal view you would see less lines because price is so far away from those lines they don't need to be on the chart.

I don't normally have a 60 minute chart up. However, I was noticing that by stepping back and looking at MML from this perspective, there was a lot more correlation with price against the MML's than say there was on my 6765 volume chart, which is normally my biggest chart for trading the ZN.

I was happy with the correlation of price and MML at this time frame. The MML's did a good job at each pivot/reversal, with the exception of the last move which is not seen on this chart. The penetration of the 6/8 line (magenta) should have not reversed until the 8/8 line (blue). Instead, it reversed at 7/8 (yellow). Now, if you advanced the chart a few more hours (off the screen shot), you will see price did move up to 8/8 like it was supposed to.

Clearly, trading solely based on MML is not an option. More researched is needed.

Mike

Hi Mike,
I’m not very computer literate as I only use the computer for trading and after stumbling across the ”Murrey Math Line” method I did some further research and came across your site and I thank you for making something I thought was beyond me sound simple. However I am unsure of one question can use the indicators on the MT4 platform together with the MACD & moving averages.
Kindest regards & thank you,
Ted

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KJAVED View Post
You are on write path, Always when price moves and makes extension of previous swing then it find support or resistance in between levels 112.5 and 127.2%. Most of time price Bounce back from this level. You are providing good help for traders community on this forum.

I am still studying 6E. I got sick of ES. Bots really messing up the market.

Checking out the range bars.

This is how would the fibs work. I tried range 5 bars. It is a mess. Very difficult to read. Range 10 seems to work well and you can see the trend but 10 tick range can make you miss the market and the stop loss might not be ideal. Anyway MM works on range charts too.

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  #56 (permalink)
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6E and the 610T with MML

See how it lines up.

6E is very different from ES or NQ.

The ABC pattern can appear in the middle of a trend.

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Big Mike View Post
We need a discussion on Murrey Math and implementing it into your trading.

I know many of you had not heard of Murrey Math Lines (MML) prior to reading my blog or this forum. I must also admit I only recently discovered it, so we will all learn together!

First, let me give a shout out to ns_karthik over on forexfactory:
Trading using Murray Maths and Price Action @ Forex Factory

It was his posts that got me interested in learning more about MML, and as soon as I started playing with it I was immediately hooked.

From my blog you probably know I am not a fan of pivot points or fibonacci numbers, simply because I think there are too many of them and they end up covering your entire chart. You can find a reason to trade/not trade every few ticks it seems. I know that many traders are extremely successful using these methods, and that goes to my next point.

Successful trading is all about confidence. If you have confidence in pivot points and fib retracements, then you can make them work. If you have confidence in Murrey Math Lines, you can make them work. I believe this is mostly true of any system. It's when your confidence starts to falter, for instance due to holes in the method, that trouble arises.

So, let's get back on topic and discuss Murrey Math Lines!


You can download the MML indicator for NinjaTrader in our File Sharing/Downloads section:
Downloads - Indicators - Murrey Math Lines - Big Mike Trading Forum

Attached to this post you'll also find a RAR archive with a PowerPoint presentation and a Word doc with a lot of very useful information for trading MML's.

I'll update this thread more soon...

Mike

Hi Mike,
HELP!!!
What have I done wrong? I downloaded some indicators on the MML’s yesterday and finished up with 55 different indicators on my charts relating to this system.
All I would like is the S& R lines + the 4-hour overlay and anything else you think might be helpful. However bear in mind you have a complete novice on computers as I only use mine for trading.
Kind regards,
Ted

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  #58 (permalink)
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Starting to reverse at 6/8 line

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These are the indicators used by Karthik, on another post I will add more

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Hello Big Mike and all im new to the site. Im looking at MML"s for possible reload point on trades on an intraday basis. I mainly trade ES And ZN . Im a hard core Market profiler for the bigger picture structure and and use that for my entries into the trend or to fade a range at times. Im lacking reload points or ways to get in in the mid day range stuff if I miss my morning entry or just screw it up. MM looks like a good match. Im extremely comfotable using a 3 min chart is there a problem with that time frame with reguards to MM? Also I tried to run the info off the site but it wont run any suggestions? Look forward to participating in the future.

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  #61 (permalink)
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I've been checking out the Murrey Math lines and I'm wondering if starting them at midnight is the best idea?

Isn't the start of a day in futures trading the open of the Globex? So for me that would be 1:30 PM PST.

Would this be a valid idea or would this make the calculations more or less accurate?

Thanks, Jeff

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Jeff Castille View Post
I've been checking out the Murrey Math lines and I'm wondering if starting them at midnight is the best idea?

Isn't the start of a day in futures trading the open of the Globex? So for me that would be 1:30 PM PST.

Would this be a valid idea or would this make the calculations more or less accurate?

Thanks, Jeff

You can fine tune the calculations to be based on monthly, weekly, or daily price points and then calculate those on an hour-by-hour basis, or use the normal calculation method. That is part of the indicator.

If you want to restrict the indicator to only seeing certain data, like 9:30am - 3:15pm, then set your Session Start and End times in the chart properties.

Mike

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  #63 (permalink)
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I want it to see all the data but I would want to start it at the open of the Globex. Is this possible? And.... do you see any merit in this idea?

Thanks, Jeff

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Well... been fascinated with the MML on CL lately, so decided sure why not, I wrote a strategy to try and trade solely based on MML's. No moving averages, no trend, no MTF, nothing -- MML the end period. In fact, I didn't even filter for time (cash open) or filter for news (I normally use my indicator TimedBarSpan to filter news events [it detects when bars are coming too fast]).

I use perish's GO so I wanted to allow the strategy to determine a few things:

- Individually select which combination of the 12 MML's to use or discard
- Control the threshold of how close Price is to a MML before triggering an entry
- Control the stop and target factors which are based on the distance between each MML
- Choose to recalculate MML hourly or not

So it crunched for a while on all the CL tick data I have (June 20 to present, which I've combined into a continuous contract) and came back with the results I've attached. The drawdown is huge but I like that the win/loss $ ratio is > 1 and the win rate over 50%. The results include commission, which on Amp is about $7 per RT (overpriced).

I may keep working on it... this is with 1 contract btw.



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Jeff Castille View Post
I want it to see all the data but I would want to start it at the open of the Globex. Is this possible? And.... do you see any merit in this idea?

Thanks, Jeff

Jeff, just saw your message.

I think you're saying you want the Chart to be a 24-hour chart, but the MML indicator to be time-restricted. With most indicators that would be easy to accomplish but I don't believe that is the case with the MML because it is very time sensitive, I don't think the normal exclusion code would work with it.

To see if it has 'merit' you might just want to keep two charts up. One with globex times only and the other with 24h chart, both with MML's, and see if there is any useful difference.

Mike

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Ok two posts up I was talking about MML and CL. I decided to run against ES. Mind you, I haven't even looked at the ES in months... but I always like to run strategies on more than one instrument, it gives you a sense of curve fitting.

It came back amazingly well on the ES. With nearly identical settings as on CL, it produced the attached results on ES. And boy, I couldn't believe how fast the optimizer is on ES... it's been a while since I've done anything other than CL, and CL has ** sooo ** much more tick data than ES it takes forever longer...

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  #67 (permalink)
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Is it me or does MML not work with range bars?

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tellytub View Post
Is it me or does MML not work with range bars?

Works very well for me. What is "not working" about it?

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  #69 (permalink)
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Sorry Mike, I had a old version, must of got it from Ninjatrader forum, for some strange reason, it didnt plot on a range bar chart. I just downloaded your version and it works.

Thanks Mike

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tellytub View Post
Sorry Mike, I had a old version, must of got it from Ninjatrader forum, for some strange reason, it didnt plot on a range bar chart. I just downloaded your version and it works.

Thanks Mike

Glad to hear it --- the majority of credit goes to PrTester, he did most of the coding.

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The strategy you wrote "looks" aamzing Mike, however, does it include slippage?

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tellytub View Post
The strategy you wrote "looks" aamzing Mike, however, does it include slippage?

Nope no slippage. When I write strategies I always use market orders to get around all the Ninja bugs, but when I run them live I always use GetCurrentAsk() or GetCurrentBid() instead. It will take me a while of real live testing to see how it really performs.

I've written 100 strategies that look just as amazing but turn out to be curve fitted. However, I will admit this is the first strategy that has not been based on a traditional type of indicator. This is also the only strategy that I've written (that I recall) that has only used one single indicator. And it's the only strategy I've written that uses any type of pivot or S/R lines, as I mainly don't trade them.

So it's new ground in that way. But I'll let you know if I'm rich in a couple weeks after it forward-tests some more. I really want more historical tick data to test against, there is a thread in VIP where I suggested a group-purchase of historical data and we could all split the costs...

I'll run a new optimization that includes a tick of slippage each way and see what happens. I'm using my own optimizer type that weighs the # of trades per day, SQN, expectancy and profit all in one, so it likes to gravitate towards higher frequency trading that results in large winners, we'll see what the slippage does to it.

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  #73 (permalink)
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Im more then happy to "chip" in for the tick data

Quick question Mike. If you ran the strategy whilst trading CL, that would give you an indication if it was successful or not?

obviously you're not going to really buy/sell real money. The reason I ask is, running the strategy against market replay isnt really going to give you the correct information, where as running it during market open will accommodate slippage?

Dont know, I may be wrong.

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  #74 (permalink)
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Market replay is pretty worthless in my opinion for testing the real-world performance of a strategy. There are just too many bugs and limitations. Market replay is useful for trying to solve a problem with code, that's about it.

The only test that matters is trading for real. But before I trade for real with any strategy, I first do my absolute best to not curve fit the strategy. Then I do as much testing as I can stand (patience) in sim, and then finally cash if all goes well. Sim is pretty accurate for most of what I do because I really don't care about that extra tick and place all my orders @ the ask, so it's rare that sim is a real problem, but the sim engine is not the best...

Specifically, slippage should work in theory on both sim and market replay. But real world, they both suck. Cash is king.

For more strategy-specific discussion let's continue this in this thread:


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tellytub View Post
Im more then happy to "chip" in for the tick data

Join me here:


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Ok last post about the strategy... you can read more on strategies on the other link I posted two posts ago.

This is CL, I excluded pre-market and after hours, I filtered for news (bars that come too fast) and I included 1 tick slippage each way. Commission is already included on above results as well.

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  #77 (permalink)
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Mike,

Now you you have done it. You have got me extremely PO'ed. Seeing those results I was thinking "Way to good to be true". Now I am thinking "What if". Was going to take a break from serious NT coding until the first revision of NT 7. Not any more. So now I will attempt to duplicate what you have done. I am sure our logic will be different which is a good thing because we might want to compare results. Nothing wrong with taking a little from this and a little from that in an attempt to create an AutoTrader that might actually work. Chances are slim but like a moth to a flame I have to go for it.

Thanks for the idea.

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  #78 (permalink)
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With MML's, the example on post 1 is great, my question is, what happens if a trend never touches a line? lets say it goes between 2 lines i.e.



At what point would you sell/buy? Also, on the purple line, according to post 1, we should of bought there, in which case, we would of made a huge lose because it went down big time.

Thanks

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  #79 (permalink)
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tellytub View Post
With MML's, the example on post 1 is great, my question is, what happens if a trend never touches a line? lets say it goes between 2 lines i.e.

Attachment 2001

At what point would you sell/buy? Also, on the purple line, according to post 1, we should of bought there, in which case, we would of made a huge lose because it went down big time.

Thanks

I don't think a post ever says what MML line to buy or sell at and that is the end of it. MML's are meant to act as support and resistance areas, but it does not mean automatic buy or sell at each and every MML. You need to look at how price is interacting with the MML.

In your screen shot, I would not have taken the long that did not come down to the MML at the end of the shot. But, it was clear it was struggling to move higher and then looks like another opportunity to short once it failed to do so. Plus you need to look at the overall trades not one individual trade, if you look at the three prior MML's they were all nice shorts.

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  #80 (permalink)
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It doesn't matter where you plot the lines. Price only moves up and down.

It doesn't matter what chart period you use. Price is the same on all chart periods.

Do you really believe that just because you give a line a name like ULTIMATE SUPPORT that it actually effects what price is going to do?

Don't you realize with all the traders in the world that just about every price on the chart has a "name" associated with it? Think about all the traders, chart periods, and indicators.

DO NOT BE FOOLED or else the rat will beat you.

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  #81 (permalink)
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Do you really believe D1(daily) is more important than H1 (hourly)?

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  #82 (permalink)
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Do you really believe W1(weekly) is more important than D1(daily)?

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  #83 (permalink)
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TheRumpledOne View Post
Do you really believe W1(weekly) is more important than D1(daily)?

No.

Draw a horizontal line that makes sense to you and trade away from it in the direction of the candle color.

There are many ways to do this. I prefer to draw the line on a higher TF and trade that line on a lower TF.

Forget about shooting stars, twisting swirlers, dumping dumplings or whatever they are called Since many people know them, their alleged significance becomes less anyway; they will fail many times.

This might provide some more insight as well: The illusion of control:

The illusion-of-control effect in MG results from the fact that a strategy that has performed well in the past becomes crowded out in the future due the minority mechanism: performing well in the recent past, there is a larger probability for a strategy to be chosen by an increasing number of agents, which inevitably leads to its demise.
https://www.er.ethz.ch/presentations/Illusion_of_control_Zurich_CCSS-conf19Aug08.pdf

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  #84 (permalink)
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Mike,

Will Murrey Math Lines display on end of day data only? I tried with Yahoo feed with any stock data but they don't seem to display.
Can anyone check it on their side? Thanks

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  #85 (permalink)
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Just downloaded this indiactor...are there any setttings I need to be aware of? I wonder what timeframe it is using to calculate the lines (i.e. whether it works in an Australian timezone)? Most pivot point indicators either allow you to enter OHC manually or enter in the timeframe used fro calculation. I see no such option with the MML indicator (but maybe this is unnecessary?)

Cheers
Simon

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  #86 (permalink)
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Been doing a little testing on the 6E Euro, using a 3 minute chart. Here's 4 consecutive screen shots . . . .

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  #87 (permalink)
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And the subsequent 4 shots . . .

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  #88 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
PrTester,

Thank you for all of your work on this indicator!! I hope you don't mind, I made a few changes for my personal use and wanted to share in case anyone else benefits from them.

Here is my version, which adds:

- Ability to use Right Margin on chart
- Ability to color the Text Labels differently than the line colors
- Raises the Text Label by 2px so it doesn't touch the line
- Right-aligns the MML text (0/8, 1/8, 2/8 etc)
- Sets default colors to match the colors presented earlier in this thread
- Sets ZOrder to -1 which puts the MML's behind price bars instead of on top

NOTE: I just made the last change a few minutes after I uploaded, so please re-download the indicator...

Mike

Looks really cool guys anyone have a version for Tradestation by chance? Thanks!

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  #89 (permalink)
wichita
 
 
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Mike

Here is my breakdown of Murrey Math confirmed by a professoinal trader who is a certified teacher of MM by Murrey himself.

Price is traveling through all the sub-octaves of a binary algorithm of the square of the number base simultaneously. Wow what a statement! Let’s break it down. We use a 10 number base system. The square of the number base is 10 squared or 100. The binary algorithm of 100 is 100 divided by 2 divided by 2 repeatedly down to very small numbers. Each subdivision of 100 by 2 represents a sub-octave’s interval size. The sub-octave interval is the distance between the Murrey Math Lines. There are about 19 total sub-octaves down to about 2 pips (0.000191).

Murrey Math on one price screen looks at the price range over a specified amount of time and finds the one appropriate sub-octave. The indicator starts at current time and looks backwards to find the sub-octave that will still contain the current price. It may go further than you specify to do this, but it will use the number of periods specified. This is the Square-in-Time. We need to have multiple screens of different amounts of time to find all the pertinent sub-octaves simultaneously. Of the 19 total sub-octaves there are about 8 that are meaningful for currencies. I use a 14 screen approach to find the 8 sub-octaves. I vary time from 256 days down to 1/32 of a day, by always halving time. This is consistent with the binary algorithm.

Each sub-octave represents where price is relative to an extreme, average or retracement condition. The same rules apply in each sub-octave about strengths or weaknesses of the Murrey Math Lines. I am looking for price at the weak 1/8th or 7/8th lines to move through these lines, long and short respectively, for safe trades. These lines are weak and price will run through them at least to the next 1/8th line. Prices within the “pipe” which is 3/8 to 5/8 are channeling and are avoided. Price breaking through the pipe is trending and moving. Bouncing off the pipe is support or resistance. Price above 8/8 or below 0/8 is extreme and may reverse. A break beyond +2/8 or -2/8 will result in a frame shift and moving probably with the trend. 2/8 and 6/8 are pivot lines. 0/8, 4/8 and 8/8 are support or resistance lines.

Retracements in a bigger sub-octave are apparent as opposite directional moves in a smaller sub-octave. So when all sub-octaves are saying the same thing you have a movement in that direction with strong momentum. If a smaller sub-octave stops the price movement at its extreme levels, price may start reversing against the trend.



The MM interval sizes that are possible are 100 divided by 2 to the Nth power. N is an integer between 5-19 for currencies. An N of 1 to 4 would be more applicable to stocks. Of these total 19 sub-octaves only 15 relate to currencies and really only 8 apply to short term trading. Currencies are in two groups of 8 sub-octaves because of their price values. Ones worth 70 to 250 (GBPJPY) would be in a different group than those selling for less than 2.00 like the GBPUSD.

I have highlighted in Murrey’s book many places where the words he uses suggest that all sub-octaves control the price movement by the MM Lines rules in different amounts of time. So my approach is to try various amounts of time and let the MM indicator find each sub-octave for a read of where price is within that sub-octave for a decision as to a trade direction and entry. When you specify P (periods) in the MM indicator you will find only one sub-octave.

A 64 day sub-octave interval will be large enough to trade for a good amount of pips. Typically 60 or 78 pips. These come from the subdivision of 100 by 2 repeatedly. Then smaller amounts of time 32-16-8-4-2-1-(1/2)-(1/4)-(1/8)-(1/16)-(1/32) days will find the other 7 possible sub-octaves for a complete read of what price is doing as to trend and imbedded trends. Analysis of 128 and 256 days is just to get a longer trend read out to one year of time (256 trading days).

Joe

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This behavior is kind of expected due to the calculation structure, it uses High?Low from 200 last bars, 200 Bars (5-Range) != 200 Bars(6-Range), hope that explain the issue.

Regards

Bump please. I have been studying MM very hard over the last couple of weeks and using it in my trading.

I take it that you are implying that range bars will often produce different results?

Is there a way to standardize them? Probably not because of the H to L calculation right?

When I run the same settings on a minute charts they appear more effective? That is due to the swings being more consistent more often in time based charts than range correct?

MML appear to work well with SBS renko but I need more screen time validation.

It would be great to get some constructive feedback to on my questions.

TIA

Dan

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  #91 (permalink)
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Murrey Math always calculates based on the action of the particular chart it is on. Here aresome examples:

Chart one is 4 tick ES, 32 frame (frame size also makes a big difference)
Chart two is 6 tick ES, 32 frame
Chart three is 1 min ES, 32 frame

The first three charts have historical lines plotted so you can see the MM WILL shift frequently.

Chart four is the same 1 min chart at 64 frame and historical lines off. You can see the difference in the line spread.

The point is every chart can look different depending on the type of chart, time frame of the chart, the frame setting of the indicator, etc. Even data from different sources on the same chart and settings can have an effect, so MM is certainly no grail. It also CAN be a big help to people who know how to use it.

Dan

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  #92 (permalink)
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I am really liking MML, but there is a nagging question which I hope some nice person on this forum might address.

When the market trades above +2/8 or -2/8 line the frame shifts, at least when set to auto. All of the sudden we go from completely overbought/OS to the 4/8 line which is the middle of the "playing field". That's a quantum leap and creates a lot of confusion and ambiguity IMO. How do you reconcile that please?

Good trading to all of you.

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If it always shifts to the 4/8's line then it is not working correctly. It should re-plot according to the data it is analyzing, not to any preset condition. You can clearly see that in a couple of the prior chart pics. Also the shift should not be dependent on price moving beyond any line as you can also see.

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eDanny View Post
If it always shifts to the 4/8's line then it is not working correctly. It should re-plot according to the data it is analyzing, not to any preset condition. You can clearly see that in a couple of the prior chart pics. Also the shift should not be dependent on price moving beyond any line as you can also see.

Thanks Dan.

I have listened to a number of Murrey's free events recently and he stated that it should shift when price close above or below the + - 2/8 line. Murrey mentioned once if it closed 4 cents above and then another time 5 cents close above the + - 2/8 line it should shift frames. Even the Murrey indicators floating, ie Esignal MML efs 4.04, around seem to do this as well.

I am not sure about the reset to the 4/8 line as it doesn't happen often but I will check it closer.

My question is more about how to handle the frame resets, I will call them. Going from extreme OS/OB to a completely different area creates some confusion/conflict.

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You are right also. There seems to be a number of reasons why they will shift and price moving to the extremes will do it. Coincidently the 4/8s line may move close to current price but not always. As far as needing a shift at all, what if price moves through all the upper lines and beyond before 11:00 AM and all subsequent movement is above the highest line? Does that mean MM is useless at that point if there are no recalculations? Think of fibs as an analogy. When price makes new highs, lows or major swings you would redraw your fibs according to the new price action. MM does the same thing. Extreme OB or OS is a temporary condition and is changeable. Look at a Stochastic. Say price is rising nicely and the Stochastic is way in the overbought zone near 100. Price starts to move sideways for a bit but the Stochastic may move all the way down into the oversold area. Wait, what? It doesn't look oversold. When price resumes its upward march the Stoch moves up again. It was a kind of reset so it can work again. I know this example is sloppy but the point is when conditions change, indicators can too and still be effective.

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I noticed today what you mentioned E Danny. Market was at 8/8 and gaped up on the volatile action, probably past + 2/8 and frame reset leaving price action to 6/8 then it kept going up to 7/8 and then dropped pretty hard.

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Has anyone here actually paid and taken any Murrey Math training????


Quotes below are by Murrey from his intro webinar this morning:


"$123.50 combo special to get started with Murrey math: 2 months of software: manuals: leanring CD: and free $50.00 Murrey Rules classes plus several live real time classes and you get to join Murrey's online weekly predicitons...jump in and join winners who have beeen pauing Murrey for the past ten years"

"join us pay us money to get the rythm of the markets or continue to lose money and use outdated software line "

"tell everyine the world standard is mm lines"

"if you dont know them you are years behind: catch up and pay us and get 5,000 pages of knowledge recorded the past 15 momnths in the mm online forum at: murrey math ofr 90 days $90.00 to get Murrey's weekly predifitons"

"doens't it piss you off to have someone ask you to pay for knowldege? when you can steal for free off Internet like songs and movies?"

"Do you encourage your 1st grader chikdre to steall off the Intenrext all their hoimework?"



He doesn't seem to spell very well.

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I took his class several years ago. The remarks you posted by him are the same stuff he was dishing out then. He is a drunk and womanizer that doesn't trade, but I have to admit he can be very charming and personable. I would put him the class of an excellent side show barker and oddity.
As for the efficacy of his methods- it turns out that if you do a statistical analysis of the hit rate of 8 random equidistant lines drawn across a daily chart, you get the same hit rate that his lines provide, roughly around 40%.
At the time I took his course, he also had a book that was offered- it was totally unreadable- as many pages were repeated at odd intervals. When I asked him about this, he said he knew and that he had so many copies to sell that he wasn't even interested in fixing it until he sold out.
Also, he was continually promising to have his software fixed of its many bugs, but because his software guy was in Germany and the Murray owed him money-it might take some time.
Due to the fact there are so many misspellings in his remarks, I would think things have gotten worse for him rather then better(substance abuse can do that to you).

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I took his class several years ago. The remarks you posted by him are the same stuff he was dishing out then. He is a drunk and womanizer that doesn't trade, but I have to admit he can be very charming and personable. I would put him the class of an excellent side show barker and oddity.
As for the efficacy of his methods- it turns out that if you do a statistical analysis of the hit rate of 8 random equidistant lines drawn across a daily chart, you get the same hit rate that his lines provide, roughly around 40%.
At the time I took his course, he also had a book that was offered- it was totally unreadable- as many pages were repeated at odd intervals. When I asked him about this, he said he knew and that he had so many copies to sell that he wasn't even interested in fixing it until he sold out.
Also, he was continually promising to have his software fixed of its many bugs, but because his software guy was in Germany and the Murray owed him money-it might take some time.
Due to the fact there are so many misspellings in his remarks, I would think things have gotten worse for him rather then better(substance abuse can do that to you).

Interesting. Thanks for your feedback. As someone once posted I don't know if he is crazy or crazy like a fox. The only thing I would take some exception with, since we all can agree Murrey is Gann based, Gann drew from swing high to low and the sectioned into to 8ths not just random.

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I took his class several years ago. The remarks you posted by him are the same stuff he was dishing out then. He is a drunk and womanizer that doesn't trade, but I have to admit he can be very charming and personable. I would put him the class of an excellent side show barker and oddity.
As for the efficacy of his methods- it turns out that if you do a statistical analysis of the hit rate of 8 random equidistant lines drawn across a daily chart, you get the same hit rate that his lines provide, roughly around 40%.
At the time I took his course, he also had a book that was offered- it was totally unreadable- as many pages were repeated at odd intervals. When I asked him about this, he said he knew and that he had so many copies to sell that he wasn't even interested in fixing it until he sold out.
Also, he was continually promising to have his software fixed of its many bugs, but because his software guy was in Germany and the Murray owed him money-it might take some time.
Due to the fact there are so many misspellings in his remarks, I would think things have gotten worse for him rather then better(substance abuse can do that to you).

That's kind of the idea I was getting about him after watching and listening to his intro webinar for 2 days. Taking a swig off the bottle between sentences and his only interest is peddling his wares to support his whatevers. I'll watch his lines out of curiosity but I haven't found a suitable time frame or range for them yet.

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