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Murrey Math
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Murrey Math

  #191 (permalink)
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Thanks Zambi

Probably one of the better discussions and explanations on the use of MML, I need to study it further.
Thanks again.

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  #192 (permalink)
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Hi all,

I've downloaded the resources on murrey math and I've been reading online, but the resources do not point out clearly how I am supposed to calculate the MM lines (like what is the trading frame, and what price to divide on what TF).

I trade mainly currencies. Maybe someone can point out a method to plot the MMlines manually on an EUR USD chart. I know there are indicators available that would sort out this kind of stuff, but I do not feel comfortable going into a system without prior knowledge on it.

Thanks.

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  #193 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
We need a discussion on Murrey Math and implementing it into your trading.

I know many of you had not heard of Murrey Math Lines (MML) prior to reading my blog or this forum. I must also admit I only recently discovered it, so we will all learn together!

First, let me give a shout out to ns_karthik over on forexfactory:
Trading using Murray Maths and Price Action @ Forex Factory

It was his posts that got me interested in learning more about MML, and as soon as I started playing with it I was immediately hooked.

From my blog you probably know I am not a fan of pivot points or fibonacci numbers, simply because I think there are too many of them and they end up covering your entire chart. You can find a reason to trade/not trade every few ticks it seems. I know that many traders are extremely successful using these methods, and that goes to my next point.

Successful trading is all about confidence. If you have confidence in pivot points and fib retracements, then you can make them work. If you have confidence in Murrey Math Lines, you can make them work. I believe this is mostly true of any system. It's when your confidence starts to falter, for instance due to holes in the method, that trouble arises.

So, let's get back on topic and discuss Murrey Math Lines!


You can download the MML indicator for NinjaTrader in our File Sharing/Downloads section:
View Download Details - Big Mike's Trading Forum

Attached to this post you'll also find a RAR archive with a PowerPoint presentation and a Word doc with a lot of very useful information for trading MML's.

I'll update this thread more soon...

Mike

Thanks Mike for being generous with your knowledge as always.

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  #194 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
Jeff, just saw your message.

I think you're saying you want the Chart to be a 24-hour chart, but the MML indicator to be time-restricted. With most indicators that would be easy to accomplish but I don't believe that is the case with the MML because it is very time sensitive, I don't think the normal exclusion code would work with it.

To see if it has 'merit' you might just want to keep two charts up. One with globex times only and the other with 24h chart, both with MML's, and see if there is any useful difference.

Mike

Mike:

Thanks for sharing your insight. I am wondering if someone attempted to have MML for 15min & 1HR as an addition to market watch on NT7. The use of this would be to replace having to browse dozens of charts and instead look at the table. Thanks in advance.

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  #195 (permalink)
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RT for QFEED


Zambi View Post
Hi Lmess.

I haven't used the MetaTrader script, but the past couple of days I downloaded the Ninja Trader demo and the MM script for them. I couldn't get it to work, but I did see it had an option to set a "number of bars back". This is NOT what I'm talking about when I say Frame 16 or Frame 64.

I think if your MT script gives you that option, it's best to leave it at default unless you like to experiment.

I'm now trying out the TradeStation platform and the MM Indicator I picked up here. It does not have the option of setting a number of bars back, but it does have the option of choosing the frame "size". In the screen capture attached it's the top-most field.

I think an "official" solution would be to use Murrey's own Real Time software. On his website they used to have a 60 day trial for $60. But it uses eSignal as a data feed, and navigating the options on eSignal's website is daunting to say the least.

In Murrey's RT software, like his EOD software, you can choose the Frame. My understanding of it is like I said before. If you choose Frame 64, it's like you're giving the stock a window of 64 bars to do what it's supposed to do.

With the EOD software, we were told to use 16 for stocks and 32 for indices. But I only attended one class of Murrey's and there's probably a lot more to juggling frame sizes around that he would've taught if I had attended more classes.

With TradeStation, the default is 8, but I set it to 16 and so far it seems to be working fine.

The closest thing I came across to Murrey's own software is a little applet called XchartMM. It should be somewhere on Yahoo or Google groups, but it used to work with Qcharts and stopped functioning since eSignal bought Qcharts. If there are any programmers on futures.io (formerly BMT) maybe they can have a go at making it work with MetaTrader or NinjaTrader?

On your current MT script, try looking for an option that gives you the choice of a bunch of numbers that appear to be multiples of 4 (4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256). That's what you need to play with when I say Frame 16 or Frame so-and-so.


Alright, let's make sure we're using the terms to mean the same thing. To me, an "octave" is the whole set of 8 lines. So when we go up from 0/8 to 8/8, that's one full octave.

Each line in Murrey lingo is an eighth (1/8) but it's much simpler to just call it a "line" :P

When I went short each line was slightly less than a point, and two lines would make up 1.953 which is a Murrey number I think (take the number 100 and start dividing by 2 repeatedly, you'll get Murrey's numbers).

And going back to what happened this morning, to be honest I didn't even look at what +2/8 was or became.. I just saw the ES punching through +2/8 on 60 mins, 30 mins and the rest of them. The TradeStation plug-in takes a bit of time to re-draw the frame. I wasn't about to wait so I just hit "Flatten" hehe. You can tell from the EOD screenshot that the likelihood was higher that they'd kill the shorts today.

The S&P cash stopped at 1296 which is 3/8 on the EOD chart. The Dow also stalled at 12,187.5 or thereabout.



Umm.. yeah you did lose me LOL
But I think you're on the right track.. especially with the soccer analogy.

Effectively, when we punch through a +2/8, it's like we're waving goodbye to the lower half of the pitch (from 0 to 4).

If El Salvador were at the lower half of the pitch, and they repeatedly devastated England, they'll call their goalie to move his goal post to 4/8. The bottom part now is gone off the screen.

And since El Salvador went past the English goal and pierced +2/8, yes, they're in the area where the fans used to be.

You can think of it as they completely pulverized the English team, swept them off the field, and are now looking for a tougher team to play against.

But remember, El Salvador should be a bit tired by now. They've run from their original goal, all the way up to England's goal. That's 8 lines. Then 2 more lines up, so the total is 10.

Fine, they're a good team. But now they're going to play a tougher team than England. They're already tired from running 10 lines, and here they are facing a fresh team that hasn't been playing at all.

In all probability, the fresh team will push El Salvador back a few lines, don't you think?

Hi Zambi:

Thanks for the insight. It seems I am going thru the same path you were on.

It seems the only software that gives the complete deal is Murrey. I am looking into trying it.

When you used EOD, did you have to subscribe to Esignal?

Also, I came across this "MureyMath Trading Frame Software 1.7.5 RT for QFeed". do u know much about it? Thanks for your feedback.

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  #196 (permalink)
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Pardy View Post
Probably one of the better discussions and explanations on the use of MML, I need to study it further.
Thanks again.

Thank you for your kind words, Pardy - I hope I've been of help.

And sorry to everyone for breaking off - I had a medical emergency in the family to deal with.



sam1197 View Post
Hi Zambi:

Thanks for the insight. It seems I am going thru the same path you were on.

It seems the only software that gives the complete deal is Murrey. I am looking into trying it.

When you used EOD, did you have to subscribe to Esignal?

Also, I came across this "MureyMath Trading Frame Software 1.7.5 RT for QFeed". do u know much about it? Thanks for your feedback.

Hello, Sam. My answers are below:


sam1197 View Post
It seems the only software that gives the complete deal is Murrey. I am looking into trying it.

If you're referring to Real Time calculation of MM lines, then yes, Murrey's own RT version should theoretically be the 'authoriative' version. Bear in mind, though, that you need an eSignal subscription to feed it with real-time data.

That said, I've recently been checking out the TradeStation version, developed by a bunch of TS users, and NOT sanctioned by Murrey himself. The Tradestation idicator is posted here on Big Mike's, and it's actually how I came to know of this forum. I found futures.io (formerly BMT) after searching for a Murrey indicator for Tradestation.

The TS indicator is not bad, actually. It's quite good at calculating PRICE levels (i.e. the HORIZONTAL lines in a Murrey Math Trading Frame), but unfortunately it doesn't show the TIME lines (the vertical ones).

When I was testing it through a friend who has a TS account, I was tinkering with it to produce short alerts when a stock goes into 8/8, +1/8 and +2/8 territory, and long alerts when we hit 0/8, -1/8 or -2/8. I got the TS indicator here on BigMike's, so I'll post the modified version here if I eventually get it to do what I want.

Going back to what I said earlier that you need an eSignal subscription to operate Murrey's own RT software, I recently started an experiment with another friend who was already signed up to eSignal but did NOT have Murrey's RT software. Once you have an eSignal subscription, you have access to a free "formula" developed by a software engineer and published freely on eSignal's forums. I can post it here in the eSignal section if Big Mike says it's okay.

From what I saw of it on my friend's system, the free eSignal forumla is pretty good and calculates BOTH the horizontal price lines AND the vertical time lines.

Appearance-wise, it looks authentic enough, complete with even diagonal speed and momentum lines, and down to Murrey's "circles of conflict" (which stocks theoretically avoid and go around). I'd asked my friend to follow it for some time to see whether the time lines give reversal indications, but then I had an emergency and no longer checked with him

To sum up, to run Murrey's own RT you need eSignal. But if you have eSignal, you can temporary hold off getting the software and try the freely available eSignal formula.


sam1197 View Post
When you used EOD, did you have to subscribe to Esignal?

For the EOD version, no, you do NOT specifically need eSignal.

What you need to feed the software is daily (aka 'historical') data in Metastock format. Any source will do. I know several which cost between $29 to $39 per month.

Murrey's website recommends www.Primate.com which seems now to have been acquired by www.realtimedata.com. Monthly subscription is $29.99 and includes futures. I haven't tried them, but I did for some time in the past used Primate. Their data was good and clean.

Another source is www.EODdata.com. With their Platinum package, which also costs $30, you get all data including futures. If you just need stocks, you can sign up for their $10 or $20 packages. I haven't tried them.

eSignal, too, has a package for EOD daily data. It's called "On Demand" or something to that effect, and costs around $30 per month.

(Speaking of eSignal, if you're signed up to their Real Time subscriptions, you'll get the historical Daily data by default; but that's $139 plus exchange fees per month).

For my EOD requirements, since I'm still on/off when it comes to trading, I've written a couple of crude scripts in Python (a programming language) which download data from free sources (Yahoo and Google for stocks and indices, and TradingBlox.com for some futures). My scripts download the text data from web pages, then convert it to Metastock format.

If your broker lets you save daily data, it's quite simple to create a script (even in Windows' own DOS console, without any other programming language) to convert the text data to Metastock format. Let me know if you need help with that.


sam1197 View Post
Also, I came across this "MureyMath Trading Frame Software 1.7.5 RT for QFeed". do u know much about it? Thanks for your feedback.

Okay, another piece of history may be in order here. When Murrey's own Real Time software first came out, it required you to be signed up to www.Quote.com which was a data feed supplier with its own charting software called QCharts. Their "QFeed" data service would feed QCharts and other compatible software, like Murrey's.

They were competitors to eSignal. They still exist (Quote.com and Qcharts), but eSignal bought them out and killed their off their QFeed service. Anyone who needed QFeed was thus forced to switch to eSignal.

That's how Murrey's Real Time software switched to using eSignal. The software you came across is probably an older version, from the days Murrey used QFeed. It would probably start up (then ask for a License String to be obtained from Murrey). But beyond that it does nothing. It needs QFeed data and that is now defunct.

Sorry for the elaborate reply, but I hope it helps.

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  #197 (permalink)
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Zambi View Post
Thank you for your kind words, Pardy - I hope I've been of help.

And sorry to everyone for breaking off - I had a medical emergency in the family to deal with.




Hello, Sam. My answers are below:



If you're referring to Real Time calculation of MM lines, then yes, Murrey's own RT version should theoretically be the 'authoriative' version. Bear in mind, though, that you need an eSignal subscription to feed it with real-time data.

That said, I've recently been checking out the TradeStation version, developed by a bunch of TS users, and NOT sanctioned by Murrey himself. The Tradestation idicator is posted here on Big Mike's, and it's actually how I came to know of this forum. I found futures.io (formerly BMT) after searching for a Murrey indicator for Tradestation.

The TS indicator is not bad, actually. It's quite good at calculating PRICE levels (i.e. the HORIZONTAL lines in a Murrey Math Trading Frame), but unfortunately it doesn't show the TIME lines (the vertical ones).

When I was testing it through a friend who has a TS account, I was tinkering with it to produce short alerts when a stock goes into 8/8, +1/8 and +2/8 territory, and long alerts when we hit 0/8, -1/8 or -2/8. I got the TS indicator here on BigMike's, so I'll post the modified version here if I eventually get it to do what I want.

Going back to what I said earlier that you need an eSignal subscription to operate Murrey's own RT software, I recently started an experiment with another friend who was already signed up to eSignal but did NOT have Murrey's RT software. Once you have an eSignal subscription, you have access to a free "formula" developed by a software engineer and published freely on eSignal's forums. I can post it here in the eSignal section if Big Mike says it's okay.

From what I saw of it on my friend's system, the free eSignal forumla is pretty good and calculates BOTH the horizontal price lines AND the vertical time lines.

Appearance-wise, it looks authentic enough, complete with even diagonal speed and momentum lines, and down to Murrey's "circles of conflict" (which stocks theoretically avoid and go around). I'd asked my friend to follow it for some time to see whether the time lines give reversal indications, but then I had an emergency and no longer checked with him

To sum up, to run Murrey's own RT you need eSignal. But if you have eSignal, you can temporary hold off getting the software and try the freely available eSignal formula.



For the EOD version, no, you do NOT specifically need eSignal.

What you need to feed the software is daily (aka 'historical') data in Metastock format. Any source will do. I know several which cost between $29 to $39 per month.

Murrey's website recommends www.Primate.com which seems now to have been acquired by www.realtimedata.com. Monthly subscription is $29.99 and includes futures. I haven't tried them, but I did for some time in the past used Primate. Their data was good and clean.

Another source is www.EODdata.com. With their Platinum package, which also costs $30, you get all data including futures. If you just need stocks, you can sign up for their $10 or $20 packages. I haven't tried them.

eSignal, too, has a package for EOD daily data. It's called "On Demand" or something to that effect, and costs around $30 per month.

(Speaking of eSignal, if you're signed up to their Real Time subscriptions, you'll get the historical Daily data by default; but that's $139 plus exchange fees per month).

For my EOD requirements, since I'm still on/off when it comes to trading, I've written a couple of crude scripts in Python (a programming language) which download data from free sources (Yahoo and Google for stocks and indices, and TradingBlox.com for some futures). My scripts download the text data from web pages, then convert it to Metastock format.

If your broker lets you save daily data, it's quite simple to create a script (even in Windows' own DOS console, without any other programming language) to convert the text data to Metastock format. Let me know if you need help with that.



Okay, another piece of history may be in order here. When Murrey's own Real Time software first came out, it required you to be signed up to www.Quote.com which was a data feed supplier with its own charting software called QCharts. Their "QFeed" data service would feed QCharts and other compatible software, like Murrey's.

They were competitors to eSignal. They still exist (Quote.com and Qcharts), but eSignal bought them out and killed their off their QFeed service. Anyone who needed QFeed was thus forced to switch to eSignal.

That's how Murrey's Real Time software switched to using eSignal. The software you came across is probably an older version, from the days Murrey used QFeed. It would probably start up (then ask for a License String to be obtained from Murrey). But beyond that it does nothing. It needs QFeed data and that is now defunct.

Sorry for the elaborate reply, but I hope it helps.

Thanks much for the detailed response. I would be interested to see what you ll find with esignal solution and its cost to implement. I d like to experiment with Time lines, circles of conflict....

I just opened a Tradestation and once funding get there by tomorrow, I ll download the software and get familiar with it. So, I d appreciate any info you have on that indicator.


Last edited by sam1197; August 28th, 2011 at 12:42 PM. Reason: addition
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  #198 (permalink)
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Thanks Zambi!

Very interesting explanations on MML. Now I've a better understanding about how to trade MML.
Thanks Zambi

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  #199 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
Jura,

I'm no longer using Murrey Math. I'm focused more on just pure price action. I don't think there is anything magical about Murrey Math, no matter how brilliant the guy was or how much math is involved. I don't believe the markets can be quantified into a pure science.

Murrey Math's usefulness can be duplicated by just drawing your own S/R lines at common sense equally spaced intervals on your chart, you will suddenly start to envision these lines as having magical power It's all in the mind.

And before MM lovers rip me a new one, let me say that trading is NOT a science, which also means that there is more than one right way! If MM works for you, then keep using it by all means! Personally, I think it works for you not because of the math, but because you've learned to see price patterns with the help of MM's lines.

Enjoy

Mike

I am quite happy to see this post from you. As also this being the first productive post on this forum. I have experimented a lot with MM lines myself, used automated logic to trade, used different time frames, different look back periods... and can conclusively say, that the charts look great after the price action, but when the decision to trade is made at a particular level, its like tossing a coin - since there is no predictive interpretation with the levels. So to say, as Mike says, you could draw random S/R lines and trade with them. Or simply toss coins. Thats the success rate of trades entered.

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  #200 (permalink)
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Lmess View Post
I can only speak from my experience with indicators, not the actual official software. Like I said in my previous post, the way the MMLs are drawn depends greatly on how far back it's looking for the highest high (HH) and lowest low (LL).

For example, if you set that number at 240 and use a Daily, 60 min, 30 min, 15min, 5min and 1 min chart. Then the amount of time through which it is searching for HH and LL to draw the lines in each timeframe would be:

Daily-----240 days
Hourly---10 days
30 m-----5 days
15 m-----2.5 days
5 m------20 hours
1 m------4 hours

It will be very hard for all of them (meaning all the lines, not just 1 or 2) to coincide at one point in time. The market would have to be trading within the 4 hour range in the 1 min chart for 240 days for all of them to coincide. This is probably never going to happen unless trading halts for good. Some sort of confluence could happen between the 30m and 15m; the 15m and 5m, 5m and 1m, or even perhaps the 60m and 5m in just one line. So I would consider that trading solely from 0/8 to 8/8 while trying to use multiple timeframes, you're probably going to take very few trades, especially if the timeframes are too different, like a 5 min and a 60 min.

This is where using all the lines would come into play. I would think, but my knowledge on this subject is very limited, that if in 5 min chart, price is trading around the 8/8 line and in the 60 min chart, the line is a 6/8 line (which, if I am not mistaken, is a line that serves as resistance when price is coming up), then perhaps one could take the trade based on the 5 min chart, but maybe look to exit at the 4/8 line which might also turn out to be the 4/8 line in the 60 min chart, as perhaps 1 eighth in the 60m equals 2 eighths in the 5 min.

I have found that when using my indicators when the market opens, the lines tend to be much closer together than at the afternoon, since during pre-market hours, price is more likely to be ranging than during the early part of the market session. For example right now in the 1 min chart, at almost 6pm ET, the distance between lines in the ES is just one point, where as at around 10 am ET, the distance between lines was 2 points.


An option for intraday trading is to use MM calculations from start of day. You get levels which are not colored by previous day price movements. On the efficacy of this or any other approach, I have my doubts, as I have moved away from using them.

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