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Do you need a mentor to be successful?
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Do you need a mentor to be successful?

  #71 (permalink)
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devdas View Post
I think,

Market has been biggest mentor for me. I simply discard any human being as mentor when i compare them to market in terms of "size", "flexibility" and "the fee" .
Development and progress of a trader IMO, is just similar to a new born baby...and think his surrounding as Market.
Child grow with continuous non ending observations, not limited to any specific provided by human mentor , it grows with constant collision from real surrounding obstacle with simultaneous reward and punishments for his actions and progress. Surrounding never demanded a "fee"....it was inherent as punishment. Continuing with this process at last baby grow up to a standard approved by his surrounding...it took time...some one took more and some one less.
So i pay fee to biggest mentor and im proud to have it as my mentor.

I disagree with your analogy and your belief, but that is what makes us all great.

As a new parent, there is so much in which a child is 'impacted' by daily, but the thing I realize more than ever is how deeply good parenting can in fact affect the perception of that 'collision' and how they interpret and mold future response to these events.

Parents COULD BE MENTORS, but most choose to not apply themselves and to me, a parent's #1 roll is as MENTOR, ROLE MODEL, etc..

You can take any other profession and you see them have success:

Pizza Rest. = Pappa Johns, Domino's dude's
Oil = Lamar Hunt, J. Paul Getty
Dresses = Vera Wang
etc..

etc...

etc....

Trading is the only business I know that you never meet or see or rub elbows with guys that you actually KNOW made those results. I have met PRO NFL players, MLB, NBA, BJJ/MMA, etc..

Sooooo...... Having a mentor can be a great addition to someone who may doubt their own success or path. Modeling in my opinion is the quickest way to stand on the shoulders of giants and skip a lot of bullshit.

I am sure I most likely will get some 'bravado' back, "What, doubts.. I never had those, I am one badass dude, didn't I tell you that..."

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  #72 (permalink)
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Coach vs. Mentor

I have been working on the problem of how I can get educated/trained as a trader and in the process of doing research for that, I have stumbled upon this great website. Much appreciation to Mike for a great undertaking.



Question: What is it that most successful sports figures and business people have had?
  • Answer: Some sort of formal, structured, intensive, long term education.
Question: What is the difference between a mentor and a coach?
  • Answer: I don't want to and won't get into a debate on the semantics of these two words. It should be sufficient to say that the words don't mean the same thing although there may be similarities. To make this easier I will not provide a definition for mentor. I will however provide a working definition for the concept of a coach. I use the term working definition because this is not an 'absolute' definition but simply this is what I mean.
The best way for me to convey the first part of this is to refer simply to what I think most people will understand when they think of a coach in the professional sports environment, whether that be for a team (e.g. football) or for an individual (e.g. golf). I have not (yet) found anyone in trading who would measure up to that. Just take a few minutes to think what such a coach does and has his students do.

The second part relates to a more formal environment like university. If you have read many books on trading you will have probably seen it said that you would never have surgery by or go on a plane piloted by someone that has read some books and had a mentor. Yet that is what most of us traders do.

So here's the challenge. How do I, how do we get ourselves trained/educated in a way similar to a professional sports person or business professional?

I am looking to find out if there are many people who see this the way I do. Who knows where it might go from there?

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  #73 (permalink)
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bluemele View Post
....
I am sure I most likely will get some 'bravado' back, "What, doubts.. I never had those, I am one badass dude, didn't I tell you that..."


Well , i cant disagree totally with ur parenting...

I would say, consider the Parents also the part of Surrounding ( Market ) and their affection and care towards baby as frequent "Reward".

Harvest The Moon
Nest The Market
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  #74 (permalink)
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@gcaldridge

I agree that coaches and mentors are two different things, although, a coach
can be a mentor at the same time. Not all coaches are mentors, but the ones
that bring out talent that the individual might not have believed he had would
be considered mentors in my book.

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  #75 (permalink)
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Massive l View Post
@gcaldridge

I agree that coaches and mentors are two different things, although, a coach
can be a mentor at the same time. Not all coaches are mentors, but the ones
that bring out talent that the individual might not have believed he had would
be considered mentors in my book.

To me, Mentor is someone who walks the walk and guides that person to creating those habits within themselves.

A coach is someone who rah rah rah, you are supposed to do this, you are supposed to do that, but do not do it themselves or would fail to achieve those results.

mentor = modelling via attached direction (replicating, copying, wanna be like Mike...)
coach = guidance through unattached direction (person who brings the best out, those who can't do, teach...)

What we find is 'coaches' pretending to be 'mentors'.

I think if you are a good trader, coaches are probably what you need for mental game.

If you are not yet successful, a mentor can be a great gap leap.

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  #76 (permalink)
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Here's an example of how a coach can also be a mentor.
This is just one example out of many throughout sports.

Tom Brady's mentor is/was also coincidentally his community college football coach.
Tom Brady’s mentor given a week-to-month to live - Shutdown Corner - NFLBlog - Yahoo! Sports

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  #77 (permalink)
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Deucalion View Post
Go attend the New York Traders Expo, take notes.
Have you heard about these traders (among others, I am leaving out at least 4 more)
  • George Kleinman
  • Don Miller
  • Jeff Quinto
  • Linda Raschke
  • Larry Pesavento
  • Timothy Morge


...

just in time I will hunt them down.

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  #78 (permalink)
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bluemele View Post
To me, Mentor is someone who walks the walk and guides that person to creating those habits within themselves.

A coach is someone who rah rah rah, you are supposed to do this, you are supposed to do that, but do not do it themselves or would fail to achieve those results.

mentor = modelling via attached direction (replicating, copying, wanna be like Mike...)
coach = guidance through unattached direction (person who brings the best out, those who can't do, teach...)

What we find is 'coaches' pretending to be 'mentors'.

I think if you are a good trader, coaches are probably what you need for mental game.

If you are not yet successful, a mentor can be a great gap leap.


I think it is sufficient to agree that there is some fundamental difference between a coach and a mentor. After that we can argue definition until .....

The way I like to think of a coach is exactly the way we think of a coach in professional sports. Their job is to make you do what you have to do to perform. Can you imagine how a professional sports team would do with a mentor?

My point is this and I hope it is simple. If you can't do it yourself then you can try a mentor and if that doesn't work you probably need a coach - to tell you what to do, when to do it, how to do it, etc. Changing your behavior requires (seemingly) endless repetition of the basic activies/skills that eventually will make you a success - whether that is football, baseball, golf, playing piano, surgery or trading. Sure not everyone needs a coach but for those that do, I don't see any out there.

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  #79 (permalink)
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Massive l View Post
No, a mentor is not needed to be successful (consecutive + monthly/yearly returns) at trading.
There is nothing magical about trading that hasn't been already exposed.
A mentor is merely a guide that may shorten the learning curve.
You have to find it within yourself to be successful at this game.

There's lots and lots of traders that sign up for mentorship programs that
are still unable to turn consistent profits.

There are also lots of extremely intelligent programmers that are still
unable to turn consistent profits.

Then there are the 23-29 year old skateboarder types
that figure out a way to get their slice.

Crazy, isn't it?

No a mentor (or a coach) is not necessary to be successful. The key word is necessary.

It should be rephrased as "A mentor is not necessary for everyone to be successful". However, since 95% of traders are not successful might that be a clue that something else is necessary?

I would think that is not necessary for everyone to have a mentor/coach/teacher etc. to be a successful surgeon but I should would hate to go under the knife with those 19 out of 20 who didn't go through the rigor of medical training. Every profession I can think of needs formal, long term training. Why is that traders think they don't?

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  #80 (permalink)
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gcaldridge View Post
No a mentor (or a coach) is not necessary to be successful. The key word is necessary.

It should be rephrased as "A mentor is not necessary for everyone to be successful". However, since 95% of traders are not successful might that be a clue that something else is necessary?

I would think that is not necessary for everyone to have a mentor/coach/teacher etc. to be a successful surgeon but I should would hate to go under the knife with those 19 out of 20 who didn't go through the rigor of medical training. Every profession I can think of needs formal, long term training. Why is that traders think they don't?

Most traders think they will find a mechanical solution to trading. An "if a = y and b= z then go short" sort of thing.

So, they don't learn how to trade, they look for the solution.

Once armed with that solution, they simply trade it repeatedly and the bank fills.

I think this is why people don't look at it like a career.

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