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$5,000,000 account earning $3000 to $5,000 daily. is it possible?
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$5,000,000 account earning $3000 to $5,000 daily. is it possible?

  #111 (permalink)
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tradetree View Post
Lornz, This was hard to follow. :-) You do not use indicators, but then you do. But then you're also sure others who use indicators are "a little bit behind" and you have "not met anyone successful trading that way." Sorry if my head is spinning. I just wanted to clarify.

I guess my view is that either you are a trader of fundamentals or you are a technical trader. You can also try and mix the two, but usually you are really relying on one vs. the other. If you are a technical-discretionary trader, you still really have rules, they are just in your head. If you are a technical-mechanical trader, you put your rules into a computer.

What I have never seen is a technical-discretionary trader that had any advantage over a good mechanical system. I have seen fundamental traders (like Buffett) that are better at utilizing news. In short, there are good technical-discretionary traders and good mechanical system traders. The one exception to this that I mentioned is if there is news that you are using to change your rules in the discretionary case. In that case you are mixing fundamental analysis with technical analysis. Then I would agree that the human is superior at integrating news. But if you are a pure technical-discretionary trader, then you either don't stick to your own rules, or else you have not made your rules conscious. (I am also skeptical that traders do well anticipating news, because insider-knowledge discounts the news ahead of you and me).

Fundamental traders are by necessity long term position traders. This is the only way the "fundamentals" can be given expression, over time. So if you are speaking about day trading. then in my experience you can daytrade technical-discretionary or technical-mechanical. And I have not seen an advantage for one over the other in that case: only one trader who is better than another. - Assuming the discretionary trader sticks to his system and the mechanical system operator sticks to his, you see the same results. Naturally if you randomly apply rules, you will get random results. Not a plus that I can see in that! :-)

technical trader, fundamental trader... who cares... you are either a trader or you are not... what you use to create your opinion has no relevance on the "type" of trader... I use whatever allows me to form an opinion or view on a given market... some technical indicators and some fundamentals...does that make me favor one over the other? not really.. what I care about is... do they support or disprove my view and why or how? that is it... how to they help shape my conviction is what I care about, and based on that conviction and the level of "confirmation" I get from my analysis or the "indicators", then I determine my size based on my risk parameters and make my bet...

to me, the only reason for which no-one today can truly take a system that combines the human aspect (evaluation based on knowledge and understanding) is because there is no rule set that can replace the human side.. one can certainly find somethings that can be made mechanical that could take place all the time, or often enough to be significant and provide some sort of edge to trade automatically, but that requires years and lots and lots of man hours invested to find and create.. if it was simple to be mechanical, it would be done even by all the simpletons of the world.... and also, because the tools are not yet there..

oh, btw... Buffett is not a trader... he is a value investor.. when he goes after a company, it is due to fundamentals... he is not after trading profits or speculating, but after yielding above average ROI from his investments... now, if you said Soros.. then yes.. there is a fundamentals trader that speculates on commodities, futures, bonds and stocks.. but Buffett?

anyhow.. all my opinion, nothing else..

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  #112 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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sysot1t View Post
..
oh, btw... Buffett is not a trader... he is a value investor.. when he goes after a company, it is due to fundamentals... he is not after trading profits or speculating, but after yielding above average ROI from his investments...
..

Buffet trades derivaties, option too.
Wisdom of Warren Buffett: Defuse Derivatives? Risks

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  #113 (permalink)
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tradetree View Post
Lornz, This was hard to follow. :-) You do not use indicators, but then you do. But then you're also sure others who use indicators are "a little bit behind" and you have "not met anyone successful trading that way." Sorry if my head is spinning. I just wanted to clarify.

I guess my view is that either you are a trader of fundamentals or you are a technical trader. You can also try and mix the two, but usually you are really relying on one vs. the other. If you are a technical-discretionary trader, you still really have rules, they are just in your head. If you are a technical-mechanical trader, you put your rules into a computer.

What I have never seen is a technical-discretionary trader that had any advantage over a good mechanical system. I have seen fundamental traders (like Buffett) that are better at utilizing news. In short, there are good technical-discretionary traders and good mechanical system traders. The one exception to this that I mentioned is if there is news that you are using to change your rules in the discretionary case. In that case you are mixing fundamental analysis with technical analysis. Then I would agree that the human is superior at integrating news. But if you are a pure technical-discretionary trader, then you either don't stick to your own rules, or else you have not made your rules conscious. (I am also skeptical that traders do well anticipating news, because insider-knowledge discounts the news ahead of you and me).

Fundamental traders are by necessity long term position traders. This is the only way the "fundamentals" can be given expression, over time. So if you are speaking about day trading. then in my experience you can daytrade technical-discretionary or technical-mechanical. And I have not seen an advantage for one over the other in that case: only one trader who is better than another. - Assuming the discretionary trader sticks to his system and the mechanical system operator sticks to his, you see the same results. Naturally if you randomly apply rules, you will get random results. Not a plus that I can see in that! :-)

Haha, are you trying to ridicule my magnificent post?
I apologize if I was coming across as arrogant and for being imprecise!

The particular approach I was referring to is pure intraday momentum trading. I don't need any technical indicators for that. As I said, I use market breadth indicators and other RS measures. My point was more that I don't have anything on my charts, but I use a spreadsheet for tracking the broader picture. I also use statistical analysis to help set targets based on information about gyrations and other metrics...

I only need a DOM and a chart to trade, though. The other stuff just increases my profitability... Especially by helping me to hold my runners much longer.

As for fundamental analysis. I am just trying to "read" the sentiment. I don't really try to predict a certain outcome, but I make up hypothetical scenarios to help me to execute better. It's more in the realm of game theory than fundamental analysis really.

But you are right, though; I am sure my brain is just good at modelling the market, but I haven't been able to consciously quantify it. I hope to be able to do some one day, but until then I guess I just have to keep doing the work manually...

I will write a little more about this in my newly created journal, and therefore I will not elaborate more at the moment.

I also want say that I agree with @sysot1t; trading is about making money, it doesn't really matter what tools one uses! (Except for a gun, maybe )

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  #114 (permalink)
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cory View Post
Buffet trades derivaties, option too.
Wisdom of Warren Buffett: Defuse Derivatives? Risks

everyone who wants to hedge risk, trades derivatives... which includes options btw.. is not like options are its own class.. anything that "derives" its value from the underlying is a derivative..

"Derivatives were covered in Buffett’s 2008 and 2009 shareholder letters. Although derivatives are extremely dangerous, Buffett trades them in a way that major risks are defused"...

I didnt say the guy was stupid, but rather that he was a value investor... any value investor will hedge their risk... or wait, his operations also trade FX in volumes.. does that make him a currency trader now?

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  #115 (permalink)
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Lornz...

you tend to be a typing contradiction...saying one thing and then another. Everyone, if Lornz can't do it or has never seen it then it must not occur! You actually said Buffett and trader in the same sentence. Then you go on to classify people AND not only tell them what they do but also how you view their approach. I anticipate your posts for the inherent humor of your delusion.

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  #116 (permalink)
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wldman View Post
you tend to be a typing contradiction...saying one thing and then another. Everyone, if Lornz can't do it or has never seen it then it must not occur! You actually said Buffett and trader in the same sentence. Then you go on to classify people AND not only tell them what they do but also how you view their approach. I anticipate your posts for the inherent humor of your delusion.

@wldman, FYI... only three people have mentioned Buffett on this thread, and within the context of what kind of trader he is, and that is @tradetree, @cory, and myself... and I dont think anyone has classified anyone, but rather we have expressed our views as to what kind of traders there might be...

but I think we have gone off the subject quite a lot by now... and we are now just raising arguments for the sake of arguments, which is getting boring..

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  #117 (permalink)
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I would like to say, that if someone is going to mention Buffet in a sentence, the inclusion of the word 'tool' should be in that sentence somewhere.

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  #118 (permalink)
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Buffett..

is a tool. That said, I own more BRK than any other equity. Yes, sysot1t, three of you mentioned Buffet, now 5 of us. I was going after Lornz because of the percieved tone of his posts. I will stop that though as it is a waste of time. Any of you can type anything you want. Trade well guys.

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  #119 (permalink)
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forrestang View Post
I would like to say, that if someone is going to mention Buffet in a sentence, the inclusion of the word 'tool' should be in that sentence somewhere.

i dont follow the joke... elaborate a bit please...

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  #120 (permalink)
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I don't need to defend anyone. But why insult people? I am guilty of it, but it is a matter of who is right and who is wrong and we all are.

Chill out, no need to call anyone 'tools' and just help us all become better traders and people.

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