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Ichimoku Reconstructed...!
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Ichimoku Reconstructed...!

  #41 (permalink)
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Right on, kbit. I've been studying stock and futures markets since '05. I've been trading live since Sept. '09.

Yes, it's basic math. highest high + lowest low / 2 for x periods.
Shifting the cloud forward doesn't make any sense. Line it up with price
and have chikou span 26 periods behind (like usual) if you want to compare the current price with
moving averages (the cloud) from x periods ago. It's that simple.

I do understand why the cloud is overrated, but it's not that much different than CS.
CS is based on the close and the cloud is made up of two averages (highest high +lowest...you know).

I discovered the same thoughts as Linkon when using averages and that is to change
the number of periods to match the time frame. It's much better than a random number
or even numbers that don't correlate to today's trading schedules.
i.e. 22 periods for an hourly chart looking at data for the past 22 hours (1 Full day of Index/Currency futures trading)

4 moving averages are unnecessary IMO.
i.e. Traditional ichimoku uses a 9, 17.5, 26, and 52 highest high + lowest low / 2
Why not just use TS/KS or just use the cloud, but shift it to align with price?

I personally haven't used a moving average for trading in a long time.

Cloud shifted to match price.
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Last edited by Massive l; September 24th, 2011 at 02:43 PM.
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  #42 (permalink)
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Responding to a couple of recent requests in the Upcoming Webinars thread, does anyone know of solid reputable traders teaching Ichimoku with some experience doing online webinars? I'd like to reach out.

Mike

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  #43 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
Responding to a couple of recent requests in the Upcoming Webinars thread, does anyone know of solid reputable traders teaching Ichimoku with some experience doing online webinars? I'd like to reach out.

Mike

@Big Mike...I sent you a pm on a guy

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  #44 (permalink)
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I recommend Linkon.

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  #45 (permalink)
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Is it really necessary to shift the cloud forward when you can get the same information with the cloud
aligned with price while referencing the chikou span to the cloud?

What do you see when you look at the cloud and price?
You see of course price represented in candles or bars and then you see two averages that have been shifted x periods ahead. Then you have Chikou Span that is x periods behind. So when price gets to the cloud, you're seeing prices relationship to two moving averages that are from x periods ago.

So again, the whole idea of the cloud is that you're seeing two moving averages shifted x periods ahead so that means when price meets up with the cloud, you're actually seeing the averages of price from x periods previously.

Then of course you have TS/KS that are two moving averages aligned with price.

Isn't that what you are seeing when you compare chikou span to TS/KS? When the chikou span interacts with TS/KS, you're are really seeing price (in the form of the close) interacting with two moving averages x amount of periods ago.

Regular Ichimoku Setup - Note the location of price compared to the cloud.

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Cloud shifted back with TS/KS. 4 moving averages are redundant and unnecessary IMO. Leave them in you prefer though.
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TS/KS taken out with the cloud still shifted back. The information that we saw previously between price and the cloud (regular ichimoku setup)
can still be seen using the Chikou Span and the cloud moved back. It gives the trader the same exact information in a simpler format IMO.

In other words, all of the information that we gather from the regular ichimoku setup is still seen in this setup (minus TS/KS but add them if you want to).
If there are two solutions that give the same information, but one is simpler, then the simpler solution should be used.
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Does this make sense? Occam's Razor anyone?

If you want 3 averages, then half the cloud (ssa+ssb) / 2)) makes the most sense.

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Note - I put a few thousand hours into Ichimoku when i first started.
Now I only trade using price and volume but Ichimoku is still one of my favorites to play around with.

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  #46 (permalink)
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Massive l View Post
Is it really necessary to shift the cloud forward when you can get the same information with the cloud
aligned with price while referencing the chikou span to the cloud?

What do you see when you look at the cloud and price?
You see of course price represented in candles or bars and then you see two averages that have been shifted x periods ahead. Then you have Chikou Span that is x periods behind. So when price gets to the cloud, you're seeing prices relationship to two moving averages that are from x periods ago.

So again, the whole idea of the cloud is that you're seeing two moving averages shifted x periods ahead so that means when price meets up with the cloud, you're actually seeing the averages of price from x periods previously.

Then of course you have TS/KS that are two moving averages aligned with price.

Isn't that what you are seeing when you compare chikou span to TS/KS? When the chikou span interacts with TS/KS, you're are really seeing price (in the form of the close) interacting with two moving averages x amount of periods ago.

Regular Ichimoku Setup - Note the location of price compared to the cloud.

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).


Cloud shifted back with TS/KS. 4 moving averages are redundant and unnecessary IMO. Leave them in you prefer though.
Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).


TS/KS taken out with the cloud still shifted back. The information that we saw previously between price and the cloud (regular ichimoku setup)
can still be seen using the Chikou Span and the cloud moved back. It gives the trader the same exact information in a simpler format IMO.

In other words, all of the information that we gather from the regular ichimoku setup is still seen in this setup (minus TS/KS but add them if you want to).
If there are two solutions that give the same information, but one is simpler, then the simpler solution should be used.
Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).


Does this make sense? Occam's Razor anyone?

If you want 3 averages, then half the cloud (ssa+ssb) / 2)) makes the most sense.

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).


Note - I put a few thousand hours into Ichimoku when i first started.
Now I only trade using price and volume but Ichimoku is still one of my favorites to play around with.

I'm really green on this stuff and I may agree with what your saying, I'm not sure. I guess what I want to know is why don't you want to see the cloud...just less stuff on your chart or what. I like seeing the cloud because it makes it easy to understand what's coming up and even visualize what's going on currently if you know what I mean. Maybe you lost me somewhere. Are we talking about the same thing or not ?

Just out of curiosity what was the main time frame did you generally use with this stuff ?

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  #47 (permalink)
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Yes, it is the idea that less is more.
Take out unnecessary and repetitive indicators.
It makes no sense to have the cloud forward when you already have price shifted back (Chikou Span).

The cloud is two basic moving averages and the idea is to see how price reacts to it in the future.
Of course you're also looking at the averages crossing signaling uptrend/downtrend.
So by aligning the cloud with price, you can still see how price reacts to it in the 'future' because
you already have price n periods back (represented as the chikou span).

By shifting it back you get to see how price interacts with all 4 moving averages, how each of these averages interact with each other, plus you still get to see how price will react with them in the 'future' with the Chikou Span.

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I personally don't use Ichimoku anymore but when I did I used it on the weekly, daily, 4hr, and 1hr charts.
I used it for approximately 2000 hours of chart time.

It's too slow for me when trading futures on smaller time frames.
It works for a lot of people...just not me or my style.

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  #48 (permalink)
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I know this is a bit off-topic here but just ran across it and tought I would share it here...it's an overview of Ichimoku and some trading strategies. (click it)
Ichimoku Reconstructed...!-ichimokuwiki.pdf

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  #49 (permalink)
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I want to let you Ichimoku guys that we have tentative webinars from Manesh Patel and Chris Capre in the coming weeks for Ichimoku education and Q&A.

More updates will be posted here:
https://futures.io/elite-circle/3383-upcoming-webinars-training-education.html

Mike

Due to time constraints, please do not PM me if your question can be resolved or answered on the forum.

Need help?
1) Stop changing things. No new indicators, charts, or methods. Be consistent with what is in front of you first.
2) Start a journal and post to it daily with the trades you made to show your strengths and weaknesses.
3) Set goals for yourself to reach daily. Make them about how you trade, not how much money you make.
4) Accept responsibility for your actions. Stop looking elsewhere to explain away poor performance.
5) Where to start as a trader? Watch this webinar and read this thread for hundreds of questions and answers.
6)
Help using the forum? Watch this video to learn general tips on using the site.

If you want
to support our community, become an Elite Member.

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  #50 (permalink)
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Wow, that is awesome Mike! When I first started trading and was looking for information on trading ichimoku, those were two of the traders (including Linkon) that I went to for ideas. These guys are the real deal. Very cool...congrats!

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