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Tape is my shape (tape reading, time and sales)


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Tape is my shape (tape reading, time and sales)

  #1331 (permalink)
bloom
Russia
 
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tpredictor View Post
@Ali1440 The whole concept of order flow revealing information is based on the cost to transact against the spread. If the spread is narrow the information is not going to be worth as much. Futures have larger spreads. This is why you find more futures traders who tape read. Order flow tends to have more value in leveraged products where the spread is significant cost to transact.

Most tape readers were never order flow traders anyway. What they were doing was something different.. They thought they were reading order flow but they really weren't.

Concept of order flow is to read how orders are moving and shift the price movement. THose orders are moving based on the ideas that affect the market. Spread is little little little part of it. You wrong about narrow spread and so. The whole concept of your reading based on dillusions

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  #1332 (permalink)
bloom
Russia
 
Posts: 473 since Apr 2011
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Ali1440 View Post
Hi)
I know that people here predominantly trade futures but I hope someone may answer this question

I`ve started to use order flow recently as complementary filter to my strategy setups on Futures markets. I want to get involved in stock markers as well and as I know classical tape reading is still used by stock traders. But they watch time&sales window only and I`ve never heard of anyone trying to utilize Footprints charts, software like Jigsaw etc. in the stock market.

I couldn`t find anywhere the explanation why do stock traders exclusively use time&sales only and ignore all order flow tools which we use on futures market? Is there any technical reasons behind that?

Why do they ignore other parts of order flow?
WHo said you that they are?
THe tape itself indicates the gradues of supply and demand. So you can see you how DEEP and STRONG supply or demand in a different context at different levels. But you see only market side if you use only tape. Still market are matching market to limit so you need to see limits too. Because you making money on disbalances.
THis can be only for few reasons that they are not using LVLII:
1) They are idiots
2) Theay are replaced LVLII with something else. I know few techniques how to see LVLII using the chart only.
3) This is tradition
4) Tape itself is enough - which is not
So i suppose those guys are pretty damn good with reading a context from charts so they can rely on it and not on the tape

Footprint is SLOW and makes you feel you know what is happening. But tape actually better. Cause it really makes you understand What is happening if you can read it.

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  #1333 (permalink)
Ali1440
Kiev Ukraine
 
Posts: 11 since Jan 2019
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bloom View Post
Why do they ignore other parts of order flow?
WHo said you that they are?
THe tape itself indicates the gradues of supply and demand. So you can see you how DEEP and STRONG supply or demand in a different context at different levels. But you see only market side if you use only tape. Still market are matching market to limit so you need to see limits too. Because you making money on disbalances.
THis can be only for few reasons that they are not using LVLII:
1) They are idiots
2) Theay are replaced LVLII with something else. I know few techniques how to see LVLII using the chart only.
3) This is tradition
4) Tape itself is enough - which is not
So i suppose those guys are pretty damn good with reading a context from charts so they can rely on it and not on the tape

Footprint is SLOW and makes you feel you know what is happening. But tape actually better. Cause it really makes you understand What is happening if you can read it.

Спасибо что ответил bloom

I agree regarding spread but didn`t really get your comment on Level2. It shows resting orders which can be removed in any moment. So big chunks of orders at some prices do not tell us anything until they executed. Whereas Time&Sale indicates actually executed orders i.e. which has been matched with market orders.
My point is that if we want to see imbalance between supply&demand why do we need Level2 if Tape already shows buyers/sellers aggressiveness and price respond on that pressure indicates imbalance? Or I simply didn`t understand smth?)

Also, what do you mean Footprint is "slow?" Doesn`t it displays the same information as the Tape just in way more readable way? That`s what really confused me when I started to dig deeper into Order Flow and Tape reading. I know one legit prop desk in the US and their stock traders use old school tape reading style. Whereas their Futures traders use Market Delta and Footprint. I just couldn`t understand why are those guys ignore tools which show the same data but in a more convenient way?

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  #1334 (permalink)
Ali1440
Kiev Ukraine
 
Posts: 11 since Jan 2019
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bloom View Post
You can ahd absolutely use Order Flow in a stocks trading. Supply and demand works fine with queve instruments based on matching size market to limits which stocks are.
If you want i can show you how you can trade stocks. It is has slight difference with futures, because of less numbers and differences between trading groups. Stocks are not that flexible as futures. This makes order flow reading there little bit different. but still fundamentally based on Supply and deman.

Could you explain in details what is the difference at your point of view?

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  #1335 (permalink)
 skann 
California
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, TOS, Sierra
Trading: ES, SPY Options
Posts: 55 since Jun 2013
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bloom View Post
Why do they ignore other parts of order flow?
WHo said you that they are?
THe tape itself indicates the gradues of supply and demand. So you can see you how DEEP and STRONG supply or demand in a different context at different levels. But you see only market side if you use only tape. Still market are matching market to limit so you need to see limits too. Because you making money on disbalances.
THis can be only for few reasons that they are not using LVLII:
1) They are idiots
2) Theay are replaced LVLII with something else. I know few techniques how to see LVLII using the chart only.
3) This is tradition
4) Tape itself is enough - which is not
So i suppose those guys are pretty damn good with reading a context from charts so they can rely on it and not on the tape

Footprint is SLOW and makes you feel you know what is happening. But tape actually better. Cause it really makes you understand What is happening if you can read it.

Hi bloom, do you have any video that can show how to read the tape. Also, do you use aggregated tape? or jigsaw?

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  #1336 (permalink)
bloom
Russia
 
Posts: 473 since Apr 2011
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Ali1440 View Post
Спасибо что ответил bloom

I agree regarding spread but didn`t really get your comment on Level2. It shows resting orders which can be removed in any moment. So big chunks of orders at some prices do not tell us anything until they executed. Whereas Time&Sale indicates actually executed orders i.e. which has been matched with market orders.
My point is that if we want to see imbalance between supply&demand why do we need Level2 if Tape already shows buyers/sellers aggressiveness and price respond on that pressure indicates imbalance? Or I simply didn`t understand smth?)

Also, what do you mean Footprint is "slow?" Doesn`t it displays the same information as the Tape just in way more readable way? That`s what really confused me when I started to dig deeper into Order Flow and Tape reading. I know one legit prop desk in the US and their stock traders use old school tape reading style. Whereas their Futures traders use Market Delta and Footprint. I just couldn`t understand why are those guys ignore tools which show the same data but in a more convenient way?

all of that just illussions. Limit orderd can be executed or cancelled - BOTH this impact the price. If you want to pretend you know OF well you should know this.
Footprint - not only tool you use but also the way your attention works influence your perfomance. Tape is easier to track and read. This is why Footprint is slow. Delta is shit. It doesnt tell you anything because number of sellers = number of buyes. It only shows which side were more agressive. Thats it
If you wanna learn you wanna to listen. If you dont, you wanna to argue. I am not for that.

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  #1337 (permalink)
bloom
Russia
 
Posts: 473 since Apr 2011
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Ali1440 View Post
Could you explain in details what is the difference at your point of view?

No i cant cause you dont want it. You just want to prove your point of view. This is not my interest.

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  #1338 (permalink)
bloom
Russia
 
Posts: 473 since Apr 2011
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skann View Post
Hi bloom, do you have any video that can show how to read the tape. Also, do you use aggregated tape? or jigsaw?

I dont have the videos anymore. I can show you in Real Time. History doesnt mean a shit. What is matter if i am capable to execute today. If i am not - it is not worth it. If you want i can show real time futures.

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  #1339 (permalink)
bloom
Russia
 
Posts: 473 since Apr 2011
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I want to make it clear GUYS
REAL ORDER FLOW is a hard stuff. I do not know for this moment of my OF carrier any of opened sources who teaches the OF in a correct way.
The whole concept that was in the begining of this thread had changed drasticly. Tape itself is only 20-30% of order flow. The rest things are context, trade management and flow of orders. If you cant understand it, your reading will be sporadic. Sometimes it will be above 50% but never 80-100% correct.
And if you want results you NEED to read 80-100% correct. Or in a long run you will fail. Thats it. The end of the game.

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  #1340 (permalink)
 skann 
California
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, TOS, Sierra
Trading: ES, SPY Options
Posts: 55 since Jun 2013
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bloom View Post
I dont have the videos anymore. I can show you in Real Time. History doesnt mean a shit. What is matter if i am capable to execute today. If i am not - it is not worth it. If you want i can show real time futures.

Hi Bloom,
Thanks for the reply....would like to learn.....how can we connect, so you can show in real time? my email is [email protected], in case you are ok to contact me for further discussion.

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