NexusFi: Find Your Edge


Home Menu

 





Trading Leveraged ETF's


Discussion in Stocks and ETFs

Updated
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one RAM011558 with 4 posts (0 thanks)
    2. looks_two userque with 3 posts (1 thanks)
    3. looks_3 Quick Summary with 1 posts (0 thanks)
    4. looks_4 deaddog with 1 posts (0 thanks)
    1. trending_up 3,334 views
    2. thumb_up 2 thanks given
    3. group 5 followers
    1. forum 10 posts
    2. attach_file 0 attachments




 
Search this Thread

Trading Leveraged ETF's

  #1 (permalink)
RAM011558
Davenport Iowa USA
 
Posts: 9 since Oct 2016
Thanks Given: 0
Thanks Received: 1

Good Morning,

I am fairly new to this so please forgive what may be simplistic questions. Here's what I know. In order to avoid settlement delays, one must trade in a margin account. A pattern day trader must have a minimum balance of $25K. Here's what I don't know.

For a 3 X leveraged ETF, do you need to keep a minimum of $75K in a margin account ($25K x leverage)?

I won't be using margin, does this matter?

If the $75k is a requirement, is there a way around this?

I read somewhere that most people trading leveraged ETF's don't trade in a margin account. If this is the case, what other account type would they be using?


Appreciate the help with this.

Reply With Quote

Can you help answer these questions
from other members on NexusFi?
Increase in trading performance by 75%
The Elite Circle
Pivot Indicator like the old SwingTemp by Big Mike
NinjaTrader
REcommedations for programming help
Sierra Chart
Trade idea based off three indicators.
Traders Hideout
How to apply profiles
Traders Hideout
 
Best Threads (Most Thanked)
in the last 7 days on NexusFi
Just another trading journal: PA, Wyckoff & Trends
34 thanks
Tao te Trade: way of the WLD
24 thanks
My NQ Trading Journal
14 thanks
GFIs1 1 DAX trade per day journal
11 thanks
HumbleTraders next chapter
11 thanks
  #3 (permalink)
 choke35 
Germany
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Trading: ES, YM, 6E
Posts: 2,668 since Feb 2013
Thanks Given: 5,101
Thanks Received: 6,558


No. SEC PDT rule just states that your day trading account must always show a positive
equity of >= $25k. If your day trading account falls below 25k you can

a) deposit fresh funds to restore the SEC minimum;
b) wait 90 days until you can initiate the first new position.

Concerning your leverage question: Leverage isn't part of the SEC PDT rule.

P.S.: If you are interested in examples and details, see e.g. https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/index.php?f=marginnew&p=daytrade

Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #4 (permalink)
RAM011558
Davenport Iowa USA
 
Posts: 9 since Oct 2016
Thanks Given: 0
Thanks Received: 1

Thank you choke35. Below is an exert from an article in an ETF website. This was apparently enacted in 2009. Sorry, because I am new to this forum, I am unable to give you the link. What are your thoughts? Again, appreciate the help.



Under Rule 2520, such traders using margin accounts were required to put up a daily maintenance requirement of $25,000. With the new FINRA rule, that amount gets multiplied by the same factor of magnification of returns that a particular leveraged ETF uses, according to a notice on the rule FINRA circulated in September 2009.

For example, pattern day traders in margin accounts using ProShares funds that multiply returns by a factor of 2 would have a $50,000 minimum daily maintenance requirement. Such traders favoring Direxion triple-exposure funds would have a $75,000 minimum daily maintenance requirement.

Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)
 
suko's Avatar
 suko 
Kyoto, Japan
Market Wizard
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TW TOS LiveVol
Broker: TD, TW, IB, Saxo
Trading: VXX, VIX, SPY
Posts: 1,326 since Oct 2013
Thanks Given: 844
Thanks Received: 1,416

You could get an offshore account, such as Suretrader, as a workaround.

Being located offshore myself, I trade leveraged ETFs using Saxo via CFD, with no PTD restrictions. Admittedly CFDs are not an ideal arrangement, but they meet my requirements for that limited aspect of the trading.

Follow me on Twitter Visit my NexusFi Trade Journal Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)
userque
Chicago IL
 
Posts: 180 since Apr 2016
Thanks Given: 573
Thanks Received: 130


RAM011558 View Post
Thank you choke35. Below is an exert from an article in an ETF website. This was apparently enacted in 2009. Sorry, because I am new to this forum, I am unable to give you the link. What are your thoughts? Again, appreciate the help.



Under Rule 2520, such traders using margin accounts were required to put up a daily maintenance requirement of $25,000. With the new FINRA rule, that amount gets multiplied by the same factor of magnification of returns that a particular leveraged ETF uses, according to a notice on the rule FINRA circulated in September 2009.

For example, pattern day traders in margin accounts using ProShares funds that multiply returns by a factor of 2 would have a $50,000 minimum daily maintenance requirement. Such traders favoring Direxion triple-exposure funds would have a $75,000 minimum daily maintenance requirement.

Rule 2520 is obsolete:

finra.complinet.com/en/display/display_main.html?rbid=2403&element_id=3668

I'm not sure if your understanding is correct as I don't use margin for any 3x ETF's

Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #7 (permalink)
userque
Chicago IL
 
Posts: 180 since Apr 2016
Thanks Given: 573
Thanks Received: 130


RAM011558 View Post
Good Morning,

I am fairly new to this so please forgive what may be simplistic questions. Here's what I know. In order to avoid settlement delays, one must trade in a margin account. A pattern day trader must have a minimum balance of $25K. Here's what I don't know.

For a 3 X leveraged ETF, do you need to keep a minimum of $75K in a margin account ($25K x leverage)?

I won't be using margin, does this matter?

If the $75k is a requirement, is there a way around this?

I read somewhere that most people trading leveraged ETF's don't trade in a margin account. If this is the case, what other account type would they be using?


Appreciate the help with this.

If you don't use a margin account, the PDT rules don't apply.

T+3 (settlement requirement) only applies to the funds used, not necessarily the whole account.

Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)
 
deaddog's Avatar
 deaddog 
Prince George BC Canada
Legendary Market Wizard
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: National Bank Direct
Broker: NBD/BMO/Questrade
Trading: Stocks
Frequency: Every few days
Duration: Weeks
Posts: 1,298 since May 2013
Thanks Given: 184
Thanks Received: 4,021


RAM011558 View Post
Good Morning,



For a 3 X leveraged ETF, do you need to keep a minimum of $75K in a margin account ($25K x leverage)?

I won't be using margin, does this matter?



Appreciate the help with this.

No you only need $25K to day trade. It used to be that you could make 3 day trades in at 5 day period.

You require a margin account to get around the 3 day settlement but you do not have to use margin.

"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)
RAM011558
Davenport Iowa USA
 
Posts: 9 since Oct 2016
Thanks Given: 0
Thanks Received: 1

Thank you for the information. Very helpful.

Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)
userque
Chicago IL
 
Posts: 180 since Apr 2016
Thanks Given: 573
Thanks Received: 130



deaddog View Post
... It used to be that you could make 3 day trades in at 5 day period. ...

AFAIK, you can still make 3 day trades in a 5 day period with less than 25K.

Reply With Quote




Last Updated on November 12, 2016


© 2024 NexusFi™, s.a., All Rights Reserved.
Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama City, Panama, Ph: +507 833-9432 (Panama and Intl), +1 888-312-3001 (USA and Canada)
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice. There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
About Us - Contact Us - Site Rules, Acceptable Use, and Terms and Conditions - Privacy Policy - Downloads - Top
no new posts