NexusFi: Find Your Edge


Home Menu

 





Trading REAL MONEY


Discussion in Stocks and ETFs

Updated
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one DetroitMoney with 69 posts (10 thanks)
    2. looks_two Big Mike with 16 posts (9 thanks)
    3. looks_3 kevinkdog with 12 posts (9 thanks)
    4. looks_4 shodson with 7 posts (2 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one kevinkdog with 0.8 thanks per post
    2. looks_two Itchymoku with 0.8 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 Big Mike with 0.6 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 DetroitMoney with 0.1 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 26,807 views
    2. thumb_up 48 thanks given
    3. group 15 followers
    1. forum 131 posts
    2. attach_file 10 attachments




 
Search this Thread

Trading REAL MONEY

  #81 (permalink)
 DetroitMoney 
Detroit Michigan United States of America
 
Posts: 86 since Oct 2013


Quoting 
I don't know anyone who can consistently take 20 points a week out of ES per contract.

Hell I don't either.

All I know is that 4 points is do able at one time in there and if one was to try to stay in for more than that day trading you'd be playing with fire. I don't have the account size yet to take a position to bed anyway so I don't even worry about it.

Example is 1 position last week got me 200. 2 positions early this week got me 262.50 each in 2 days. Then on the very next position I lost 250. At the end of the month my if account is worth more than what I started with I'm good.

You don't get rich by being reckless you get rich by being slow and cautious and trust me I am.

I am not in this for fun as it says on my label. Dunno who posted that. I am in this to make money everyday. Does that always happen? Pretty much. There are losers though and yesterday was the day. I didn't give them any of my own money though so it is still a win win for me the way I see it. It was their money and money I did not have before so I could care less about that loss. While it did suck it's not the end of my trading.

Reply With Quote

Can you help answer these questions
from other members on NexusFi?
My NT8 Volume Profile Split by Asian/Euro/Open
NinjaTrader
Better Renko Gaps
The Elite Circle
The space time continuum and the dynamics of a financial …
Emini and Emicro Index
Exit Strategy
NinjaTrader
NexusFi Journal Challenge - April 2024
Feedback and Announcements
 
Best Threads (Most Thanked)
in the last 7 days on NexusFi
Get funded firms 2023/2024 - Any recommendations or word …
61 thanks
Funded Trader platforms
39 thanks
NexusFi site changelog and issues/problem reporting
26 thanks
The Program
18 thanks
GFIs1 1 DAX trade per day journal
18 thanks
  #82 (permalink)
 DetroitMoney 
Detroit Michigan United States of America
 
Posts: 86 since Oct 2013


Quoting 
I'd never recommend someone try to trade based on such a low margin requirement. It is a recipe for disaster.

FreakinA no doubt it is. LOL

I am very disciplined KD. I am resolved to the fact that my account is very small and I must build it up to get what I want. I did this on purpose. My account is severely underfunded by most parameters. Here's the thing though.

When traders go in the live market after trading sim and find that all the kooky s### they where doing on sim is getting them wrecked they wonder WTF happened.

I had already been in the live markets twice with real money and wasn't ready yet and GTF outta there as fast as I could without blowing out either time. Again it's about being smart vs reckless IMHO.

I got constantly profitable this year and was getting a lot of flack from my mentor to go in the live markets to see if I really had game. He trades in multiplies of 3,6 9, and 18 in ES live at any given time. Interestingly we do not trade any where near the same way. The end result is the only outcome needed though.

MAKE MONEY EVERYDAY

Reply With Quote
  #83 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
Posts: 3,645 since Jul 2012
Thanks Given: 1,890
Thanks Received: 7,338



DetroitMoney View Post
FreakinA no doubt it is. LOL

I am very disciplined KD. I am resolved to the fact that my account is very small and I must build it up to get what I want. I did this on purpose. My account is severely underfunded by most parameters. Here's the thing though.

When traders go in the live market after trading sim and find that all the kooky s### they where doing on sim is getting them wrecked they wonder WTF happened.

I had already been in the live markets twice with real money and wasn't ready yet and GTF outta there as fast as I could without blowing out either time. Again it's about being smart vs reckless IMHO.

I got constantly profitable this year and was getting a lot of flack from my mentor to go in the live markets to see if I really had game. He trades in multiplies of 3,6 9, and 18 in ES live at any given time. Interestingly we do not trade any where near the same way. The end result is the only outcome needed though.

MAKE MONEY EVERYDAY

I posted this in another thread a while back, but I could not find it. Here is why small accounts usually lose, even if the trader has a winning system...


Let's say you have a neat day trading system. It trades 2 times a day. Winning trades are $200 after all costs, 50% of the time. When it loses the other 50% of the time, it loses $175 net.

So, per day, on average, you'd make $25 a day. In a year, you'd make $6,300 per contract. If you traded this with a $10K account, always with one contract, you'd make 63% annual return, with somewhere around 15% drawdown. By most measures that is really good.

Now, let's say you take this positive expectancy system, and trade it with a small account, $5K and under. Let's say your broker allows $500 day trading margin, so that is your "ruin" point - if your account drops below $500, you are ruined and you quit trading.

In one year of trading, how likely are you to be ruined (drop below $500, and cease trading)?

The results might surprise you.



Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #84 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
Posts: 3,645 since Jul 2012
Thanks Given: 1,890
Thanks Received: 7,338

If you give me your particulars (% win, net avg win, net avg loss, account size, # trades per year) I can do this same analysis for your $300 day trading margin case.

Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #85 (permalink)
 MeanBean 
San Francisco, CA
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: my fist
Broker: DDT
Trading: cement
Posts: 63 since Sep 2012
Thanks Given: 39
Thanks Received: 56


kevinkdog View Post
If you give me your particulars (% win, net avg win, net avg loss, account size, # trades per year) I can do this same analysis for your $300 day trading margin case.

Hey Kevinkdog, What do you consider to be properly funded then? Would it be with your math be a person who can trade close to full margin per contract? Or is it something else. Or do you have a formula that you would use (if so give formula if you can). thanks.

the meanest bean of all,
MeanBean
Reply With Quote
  #86 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
Posts: 3,645 since Jul 2012
Thanks Given: 1,890
Thanks Received: 7,338


MeanBean View Post
Hey Kevinkdog, What do you consider to be properly funded then? Would it be with your math be a person who can trade close to full margin per contract? Or is it something else. Or do you have a formula that you would use (if so give formula if you can). thanks.

If you google "risk of ruin" you should be able to find an equation on calculating it. I use a simple Monte Carlo simulator to generate the results I get.

There are really 4 things you want to look at:

1. Minimize risk of ruin
2. Minimize maximum drawdown
3. Maximize annual return
4. Maximize return/drawdown ratio


For #1 and #2, it becomes a personal decision. What odds do you want to accept that you'll be wiped out in a year? 1%? 5%? 10%? 50%? Same question for maximum drawdown.

Once you know what you can live with, you can work backwards and figure out what kind of account size you need to meet your parameters.

Of course, all this assumes that you know the detailed performance metrics of your trading system, in order to feed into the calculator or simulator. Problem is 1) many people have no statistics like this, and 2) if they do have the numbers from a backtest, chances are the results are bogus, since most people don't know how to backtest properly (that is a whole other thread topic).

Hope this helps.

Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #87 (permalink)
 DetroitMoney 
Detroit Michigan United States of America
 
Posts: 86 since Oct 2013

I am trading for income mostly KD. I have a another business which is very high profit margin and low over head. It's the type of business that enables me to only have to work 6 months a year. I can then do anything I want anywhere in the world I wish to do it for the other 6 months.

As you know you can trade form anywhere in the world or so they say. The one thing to keep in mind is how good/strong the internet is where ever you are especially if you are in Europe. My other business is very physically demanding however since I only have to do it for six months it's a trade off on the harshness of it. I can heal up trading at the beach in the winter. LOL

I also am in a good position because I own everything I have. House, vehicles, my one work machine, 0 credit card debt. Losing some money in the market is no fun however it's not the worst thing that can happen because I can always make more at some point. No one wants to loose $200- 300 on a 50-50 set up. However if you had a good 4-5 trading days ( or months, years) $300 becomes immaterial.

Having and/or starting with a large account size is a two way street. A bigger account size just let's you have bigger balls is all. Someone here in futures.io (formerly BMT) said to increase size and decrease risk. I agree with that 100%. Most professional traders I know use less than 1% risk and are very successful AND RICH!! LOL However if you are not trading proportionately then it is a moot point. I get ROR for sure. Van Tharp is the bomb and he knows whats up for sure.

You could start with 100k 200k would not matter because if you don't know what you are doing in the live market you WILL lose all of your freaking money. No doubt. Sim is all fine and dandy to learn how to use SL and PT's and that however it's all BS because there is no one there but you. I doubled my sim account every month from January of this year to May. I would zero it out and start over with 10k every month. Then from June I let it go and ran the 10k up to over 500K. As my mentor say's DON"T MEAN S###.

To really know if you have game or not you must go into the live market and trade against real other traders most of which are trying to take your money. Here's what I did. I took out almost all of the money from my futures account and put it into 19 value positions in equities. The money is now all deployed and working. Nothing to do on that now.

I left in 580 and change. I over doubled it in just 4 trades in the live market. If indeed that can be a good thing and is like that at the end of the month it is all good. Will there be losers? Of course. Could I lose all of my money in the live market on 1 position. Not a chance. My ATM strategy is designed to open the position, place the SL and PT upon clicking the mouse. Nothing to do except sit back and either make money or lose it. How much I lose is set so again there is nothing to do. There is no stress. LOL NOT!!!

Example is yesterday It was all good and then PA turned back. DO you want to get shaken out on a few candles? Not me. I just stayed in it. I actually watched the candle blow up in front of my eyes and watched it hit my hard money SL. Now I honestly have to say I hate that witch that comes on and says "stop filled" however it is what it is
because it is all in the ATM. I just sat there and took the 250 loss then turned off the charts and went to the strip club for gentleman's breakfast as it was only like 0945. LOL

Reply With Quote
  #88 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
Posts: 3,645 since Jul 2012
Thanks Given: 1,890
Thanks Received: 7,338


DetroitMoney View Post
I am trading for income mostly KD. I have a another business which is very high profit margin and low over head. It's the type of business that enables me to only have to work 6 months a year. I can then do anything I want anywhere in the world I wish to do it for the other 6 months.

As you know you can trade form anywhere in the world or so they say. The one thing to keep in mind is how good/strong the internet is where ever you are especially if you are in Europe. My other business is very physically demanding however since I only have to do it for six months it's a trade off on the harshness of it. I can heal up trading at the beach in the winter. LOL

I also am in a good position because I own everything I have. House, vehicles, my one work machine, 0 credit card debt. Losing some money in the market is no fun however it's not the worst thing that can happen because I can always make more at some point. No one wants to loose $200- 300 on a 50-50 set up. However if you had a good 4-5 trading days ( or months, years) $300 becomes immaterial.

Having and/or starting with a large account size is a two way street. A bigger account size just let's you have bigger balls is all. Someone here in futures.io (formerly BMT) said to increase size and decrease risk. I agree with that 100%. Most professional traders I know use less than 1% risk and are very successful AND RICH!! LOL However if you are not trading proportionately then it is a moot point. I get ROR for sure. Van Tharp is the bomb and he knows whats up for sure.

You could start with 100k 200k would not matter because if you don't know what you are doing in the live market you WILL lose all of your freaking money. No doubt. Sim is all fine and dandy to learn how to use SL and PT's and that however it's all BS because there is no one there but you. I doubled my sim account every month from January of this year to May. I would zero it out and start over with 10k every month. Then from June I let it go and ran the 10k up to over 500K. As my mentor say's DON"T MEAN S###.

To really know if you have game or not you must go into the live market and trade against real other traders most of which are trying to take your money. Here's what I did. I took out almost all of the money from my futures account and put it into 19 value positions in equities. The money is now all deployed and working. Nothing to do on that now.

I left in 580 and change. I over doubled it in just 4 trades in the live market. If indeed that can be a good thing and is like that at the end of the month it is all good. Will there be losers? Of course. Could I lose all of my money in the live market on 1 position. Not a chance. My ATM strategy is designed to open the position, place the SL and PT upon clicking the mouse. Nothing to do except sit back and either make money or lose it. How much I lose is set so again there is nothing to do. There is no stress. LOL NOT!!!

Example is yesterday It was all good and then PA turned back. DO you want to get shaken out on a few candles? Not me. I just stayed in it. I actually watched the candle blow up in front of my eyes and watched it hit my hard money SL. Now I honestly have to say I hate that witch that comes on and says "stop filled" however it is what it is
because it is all in the ATM. I just sat there and took the 250 loss then turned off the charts and went to the strip club for gentleman's breakfast as it was only like 0945. LOL


With $580 in your futures account, your chances of dropping below the $300 you need to open a new trade (your ruin point) are practically guaranteed, even if you have a winning approach (most people don't).

But you say you understand risk of ruin, so you know this. But for people reading who don't get this, maybe they will now.

As far as your statement: "Could I lose all of my money in the live market on 1 position. Not a chance." I sincerely hope you never experience how wrong this statement is.

Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
  #89 (permalink)
 supermht 
Naperville IL
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninjatrader
Broker: NT broker
Trading: NQ ES 6E GC CL
Posts: 962 since Feb 2010
Thanks Given: 1,189
Thanks Received: 661

$580 account to trade futures? did i miss anything? joke?

Reply With Quote
  #90 (permalink)
 DetroitMoney 
Detroit Michigan United States of America
 
Posts: 86 since Oct 2013


Here is a chart.

I am not worried about losing some money. I AM certainly trying to keep ALL of the money I already have though

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	ES trades.JPG
Views:	122
Size:	159.4 KB
ID:	129386  
Reply With Quote




Last Updated on November 23, 2013


© 2024 NexusFi™, s.a., All Rights Reserved.
Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama City, Panama, Ph: +507 833-9432 (Panama and Intl), +1 888-312-3001 (USA and Canada)
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice. There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
About Us - Contact Us - Site Rules, Acceptable Use, and Terms and Conditions - Privacy Policy - Downloads - Top
no new posts