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Sierra vs. Ninja : why I chose .....
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Sierra vs. Ninja : why I chose .....

  #161 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Boca Raton
 
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Babool View Post
16) Server side OCO orders (if your connection supports it)

We have just implemented along with Sierra server side OCO for Rithmic.
This is only available via a new Rithmic API + connectivity
I will make an announcement on our thread as well

Matt

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.
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  #162 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
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I hope it's okay to bump this old thread I found through Google.

I'm just reading quickly through this thread and it seems like most people find that Sierra is the better choice?

Any new opinions three or four years later? Especially with NT8 finally being released?

I'm currently torn between sticking with NT8 (and being 'forced') to use NT Brokerage and having more flexibility of broker choice (AMP and others) while having to learn a new platform.

If I chose the latter, it seems like Sierra is the way to go, but there also seems to be a learning curve and I'm short on time these days.

My needs are fairly simple though. I trade ES only. For day trading, I currently use 1-minute/30-second charts, volume charts and tick charts.

A good swing/zig zag indicator would be great. I currently have a custom made one that I use in Ninja.

Also, an indicator that plots prior day highs and lows and current day high and low + Open would be nice also.

Finally, execution from charts (and it would be nice if one can easily switch between charts).

I'm sure both platforms do this fairly well out of the box. Would be interesting to hear some new experiences though if anyone got to share.

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  #163 (permalink)
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LaissezFaire View Post
I hope it's okay to bump this old thread I found through Google.

I'm just reading quickly through this thread and it seems like most people find that Sierra is the better choice?

Any new opinions three or four years later? Especially with NT8 finally being released?

I'm currently torn between sticking with NT8 (and being 'forced') to use NT Brokerage and having more flexibility of broker choice (AMP and others) while having to learn a new platform.

If I chose the latter, it seems like Sierra is the way to go, but there also seems to be a learning curve and I'm short on time these days.

My needs are fairly simple though. I trade ES only. For day trading, I currently use 1-minute/30-second charts, volume charts and tick charts.

A good swing/zig zag indicator would be great. I currently have a custom made one that I use in Ninja.

Also, an indicator that plots prior day highs and lows and current day high and low + Open would be nice also.

Finally, execution from charts (and it would be nice if one can easily switch between charts).

I'm sure both platforms do this fairly well out of the box. Would be interesting to hear some new experiences though if anyone got to share.


I won't mince words here: a few months ago I downloaded the latest NT (I have a lifetime license, unfortunately), fired it up, and was amazed at what absolute garbage it still is. I actually was excited to give it a try, assuming that in the 4 years since I'd touched it, it would be considerably better. However, it was not. It is one of the worst pieces of software I've ever used. If I could sell my license for $5, I would. I'm not joking. Sorry to be so blunt, but the usability alone is bad enough to warrant that. I'm not sure what NT's problem is, but they are plagued by a lack of innovation.

Their model to allow people to buy a lifetime license doesn't make much sense in today's market. Everything is SaaS, and I would imagine they create a situation where support becomes difficult, as they must support their product, but they receive no ongoing revenue from it. From what I recall, their support IS a nightmare. If you actually have a problem, good luck getting any traction on it. SC, on the other hand, actually responds to support requests, and they do something phenomenal to quite a few of them: they say "no." People get offended, because that's how people tend to be, but it at least gives a definitive answer. Much of the time though, they say "yes, we will change this," and the next release, usually a few days later, has the change. When they say no, they mean it, and you don't have to wonder if they'll do it or not. But generally they are very accommodating.

I'm still using Sierra (though after a 3 year break there was a little learning curve). Yes, there is a bit of a learning curve. No, it hasn't improved in 3 years as much as I'd hoped. But, it's a good piece of software, affordable, and leagues ahead of NT.

"Daily OHLC" is what you'll want for highs/lows. The indicators (called "studies" in SC) are extensive. There is chart trading, though I use the DOM instead (you can also put the DOM on a chart).

If I seem a bit brash, I apologize. I'm not sure what quite fires me up about NT exactly; perhaps it's that it's the go-to software for people who are new, for some reason, and they unknowingly think that it's "cool" because they've never used software with charts, trading, etc., and they miss out on better products that are cheaper. Or, maybe it's the poor support I've received when reporting problems before. Either way, at least you know where I stand.

Final thought: yes, you can both make money and lose money with either NT, Sierra, or anything else. The tool does not make the money; but, it helps to have a tool you are comfortable with, that gives you the information you need, and gets out of your way otherwise. I did not want to give the impression that SC will cause one to do well, because I sure as heck had some bad trading days with it.

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  #164 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
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Josh,

I really appreciate the extensive comment. It seems like I should seriously consider Sierra after all.

I'm not of the belief that Ninja is a superior software in any way, but it does what I need it to do and in live trading in the past, I've never had it crash on me.

What you mention about being comfortable with a tool and may I add for me, familiarity, is what keeps me with NT at the moment.

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  #165 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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josh View Post
I won't mince words here: a few months ago I downloaded the latest NT (I have a lifetime license, unfortunately), fired it up, and was amazed at what absolute garbage it still is.
...

I'm still using Sierra (though after a 3 year break there was a little learning curve). Yes, there is a bit of a learning curve. No, it hasn't improved in 3 years as much as I'd hoped. But, it's a good piece of software, affordable, and leagues ahead of NT.

I respect everything @josh says, and I recall that he never liked NT, and obviously still doesn't.

I do, and I like the NT8 version a lot, having just come to it after staying away to avoid it initial growing pains. I also like SierraChart a lot, and it really has always been a better choice in many ways for a lot of people.

I just wrote out a long post in another thread, mostly about SC. The person starting that thread had some performance issues with NT8 when he was running a lot of third-party indicators, and his requirements were fairly detailed, more so than yours. But I think it may be of help to you, and I don't want to just retype it all , so I thought I would just quote it here. Take what you can use from it.


bobwest View Post
Here are my two cents. Note that I am only now starting to look into NT8 (I was worried about stability in the beginning), although I have a long experience with NT7. I also have some experience with SierraChart, and am a semi-retired programmer.

My first thought is to just go to the SierraChart website, download a free trial, sign up for a free data trial, and work with it for a while until you can decide if it gives you what you want. Site is here: Sierra Chart

Now some warnings: you will probably start tearing your hair out after about a half hour of navigating the website. This is because, although it is logical once you understand it, it is very hairy until you do. I would add that about the same is true about the documentation (very complete, very hairy) and, for that matter, the platform itself.

With that said, it is fast as hell (although it takes a good time to load up charts). It has probably some version of almost everything you have ever wanted (you will pay a little more -- about 10 bucks/month) for what they call "numbers bars" -- footprint charts (which may be what you mean by "ladder charts", and some of the volume profile stuff, although some VP is in the base version. It is cheap (I think about $25/month without data feed, then you can add in your or their data for something more.) It has something they call, as I recall, FlexRenko, which some UniRenko users have said is the equivalent of UniRenko (I don't use any renko, so I can't say.) Finally, almost every broker (probably not NT ) will connect to it. IB does.

I do not know if it will meet all your requirements. I do not trade the DOM, and while I admire Peter and his work, I do not use Jigsaw, so you will have to see about that.

It does have a robust programming interface if you want to write your own code, but be warned that the documentation was written by the same guy who wrote all the other documentation, so don't expect it to be easy to learn. Also, there are user-coders who occasionally kick in some code, but nothing like on NT. There are a few third-party guys also, but not as many.

Unlike NT, it is written in C++, which runs rings around C# in terms of performance (note to C# enthusiasts: I like C# too, but don't comment me about this, this is what I do for a living ). I assume that it is multi-threaded, and has been for a while, from the way it acts and from the obvious fact that whoever codes it (and writes their docs, etc.) is hardcore. Multi-threading is not simple, mind you, but it is the best choice if you are hard-core enough .

None of this will matter if it doesn't support the functionality you want, but you might check it out.

Other than that, it is quite possible that the third party code you are using in NT is in fact the cause of your problems. The move to multi-threading blew quite a few minds among the NT coding community, as did a number of other changes, some of which (such as properly disposing some objects) used to cause serious memory issues and performance slowdowns. I don't know what you can do about that, other than one-by-one adding in an indicator and testing it, a time-consuming process, as you have said.

I just remembered that Jigsaw has a free-standing platform that runs on its own -- which you probably know about, but it doesn't need NT. I don't know if that is a workable arrangement for you, since it may mean essentially running two platforms at once.

Lastly, although I said a lot in favor of SierraChart, I am moving back to NT, which I am more familiar with and just like better. But SierraChart is still something to look at, and you can look for free.

I hope all this gives you something to work on.

Bob.

Update: I also should say that, since I have come back to NT, I am impressed by it quickness, compared to the old NT. I do think it is likely that it can support what you are looking for, and that some of the third-party code is likely at fault.

You might want to check out some of @gomi's work, which includes volume profile and volume ladders, and who is well-known and trusted in the community. He has some third-party commercial indicators out for NT and Sierra, and I believe he has a free trial. There is a review thread on his current stuff here: https://futures.io/trading-reviews-vendors/39027-gomi-all-ninjatrader-7-8-sierra...s-com-original-gomi.html

Also, he may see this and may have an opinion about your performance issues.

Source thread is here: https://futures.io/platforms-indicators/44113-platform-recommendations-please.html

I do think SierraChart is an excellent platform, and a good one for anyone to try out.

Bob.


Last edited by bobwest; March 1st, 2018 at 07:52 PM.
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  #166 (permalink)
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bobwest View Post
Source thread is here: https://futures.io/platforms-indicators/44113-platform-recommendations-please.html

I do think SierraChart is an excellent platform, and a good one for anyone to try out.

Bob.

I actually run SC using Wine on Ubuntu 17.10 -- how's that for crazy? It takes a few more CPU cycles but they're available

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  #167 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
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bobwest View Post
I respect everything @josh says, and I recall that he never liked NT, and obviously still doesn't.

I do, and I like the NT8 version a lot, having just come to it after staying away to avoid it initial growing pains. I also like SierraChart a lot, and it really has always been a better choice in many ways for a lot of people.

I really appreciate your comment, Bob. Thank you for your time and patience.

I'm on the run now, but I will study that thread later.

I'm starting to think that maybe I will go for NT8 for now and rather consider making a switch IF I should find that I'm having issues with NT8 AND/OR their brokerage.

It does seem like Sierra might be a better choice in many/some ways, but I'd like to avoid the learning curve right now as I'm a little short on time as it is.

When people say NT is a 'piece of garbage' or similar, I wonder if it's really a fair statement or what their experience truly is. Or maybe it's just me who don't have much comparative experience with other platforms. But I feel that NT has pretty much always been good to me. That said, I typically chart a maximum of three symbols and my charts are usually fairly simple.

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  #168 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
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I'll be downloading a Sierra demo this weekend just to test it a little.

Maybe this sounds odd, but from screenshots, I always thought Sierra charts looked a lot less 'beautiful' than the charts on Ninja. I'm a visual guy, so I do like my charts to look good. I've seen some people say Sierra has an 80s look and I feel that's a good description. Anyway...

Maybe not the best thread to ask, but:

1) Does Sierra charts have a good zig zag out of the box?

I don't really like the standard Ninja zig zag. And have thus been using one a trader friend gave me.

2) Does Sierra have a ruler?

One of my favorite things with Ninja.

Thinking of it, I don't use a lot of technical stuff, but I do think Ninja could improve a bit here.

One of the things I really like in my trading is to reference the prior day(s) and current day High/Low/Close. I'd like to have these plotted as horizontal lines for historical data (yesterday and earlier) and also for the day today as it evolves.

NT7 can only offer to plot the OHLC from yesterday on TODAY's chart.

I talked with Ninja about this and they said it wasn't currently available. This is an indicator that my non programmer friend made very quickly.

Shoot me if I'm wrong (I'm at another computer and can't check now), but Ninja did NOT include this in NT 8. I consider this a very basic tool and one that customers have requested, so it's a huge disappointment that they can't bother to add something so basic and simple.

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  #169 (permalink)
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LaissezFaire View Post
I'll be downloading a Sierra demo this weekend just to test it a little.

Maybe this sounds odd, but from screenshots, I always thought Sierra charts looked a lot less 'beautiful' than the charts on Ninja. I'm a visual guy, so I do like my charts to look good. I've seen some people say Sierra has an 80s look and I feel that's a good description. Anyway...

Maybe not the best thread to ask, but:

1) Does Sierra charts have a good zig zag out of the box?

I don't really like the standard Ninja zig zag. And have thus been using one a trader friend gave me.

2) Does Sierra have a ruler?

One of my favorite things with Ninja.




Thinking of it, I don't use a lot of technical stuff, but I do think Ninja could improve a bit here.

One of the things I really like in my trading is to reference the prior day(s) and current day High/Low/Close. I'd like to have these plotted as horizontal lines for historical data (yesterday and earlier) and also for the day today as it evolves.

NT7 can only offer to plot the OHLC from yesterday on TODAY's chart.

I talked with Ninja about this and they said it wasn't currently available. This is an indicator that my non programmer friend made very quickly.

Shoot me if I'm wrong (I'm at another computer and can't check now), but Ninja did NOT include this in NT 8. I consider this a very basic tool and one that customers have requested, so it's a huge disappointment that they can't bother to add something so basic and simple.

SC has it all you mentioned.
And the look bother you only in first month.

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).

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  #170 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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And one important thing


@LaissezFaire

If you setup the SC in "Data/Trade Service Settings" "Intraday Data Storage Time Unit" must be set to 1 tick
I think by default its 1 second. And if you use not time based chart ( tick, volume, ... ) it messes up the chart.

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