OP I think you're just over trading. You are getting eaten up by 1-5 minute trades, death by a thousand paper cuts-style. You've got over three times as many losing trades in that block of time as winners, and while win rate to me is pretty meaningless, you are losing way more on the losers than you are profiting on the winners in the same time frame, simply because you're taking so many trades.

As another poster in this thread once said, "it isn't how often you are right, but by how much." Your edge seems to manifest itself the longer you stay in a trade but it's getting obliviated by the sheer number of small losses. Maybe ask yourself why am I taking so many trades that end up being quick losers?

Ideally, you make your millions outside of trading, and then throw it all in ETF, aka Jack Bogle's style, and hold forever.
If someone is rich from the start, I would definitely do this, instead of active trading.

tigertrader 

Personally, I believe the answer is deceptively simple. You can only "take" what the market gives you. If you go into the game without any expectations, there's a good chance you won't be disappointed, and you won't become frustrated. And, you will trade well! The trick is to make the best out of the cards that have been dealt you. Don't focus on your “expectations” of the market and how much money you're going to take from it; just trade what's there. There will be days you can trade from the opening-to-close, in a low volume, small range, low vol environment, and make very good money. You just have up your size and adjust your style. And, then THERE will be days when the market breaks out, reverses, or continues a trend; and, you can milk it for days, trading around the position. Be patient, then aggressive. P&L below is from 01/11/2023 the day before the CPI release. It was exactly the kind of day I described above. But, there were plenty of intraday moves. I was trading 1-3 units (7lots/unit) at a crack, with very little risk, using the $TICK, VWAP, and options flow. There is almost always money to be made, if you are able to adapt to the market presented you.

This post is just amazing!!! I think that this level of simplicity is something that you can achieve only after many many years of trading..... after "only" 4 years I can see that this will be the final answer but I still have to get rid of a lot of overhead (I don't know if this is the right word) to reach this semplicity. Over the years I got rid on many indicators, I simplified the charts and I don't even need fancy platforms anymore.
There are still many thoughts that I need to simplify.

I had days in which I was just in sync with the market and I could make thousands of dollars easily, everything seemed to flow.
I think it's like a musician that after some years he creates a simple music that becomes a great hit! The music is simple, but it's a simplicity that is obtained by reducing complexness.

Thanks for this post!

Pariah Carey 

OP I think you're just over trading. You are getting eaten up by 1-5 minute trades, death by a thousand paper cuts-style. You've got over three times as many losing trades in that block of time as winners, and while win rate to me is pretty meaningless, you are losing way more on the losers than you are profiting on the winners in the same time frame, simply because you're taking so many trades. As another poster in this thread once said, "it isn't how often you are right, but by how much." Your edge seems to manifest itself the longer you stay in a trade but it's getting obliviated by the sheer number of small losses. Maybe ask yourself why am I taking so many trades that end up being quick losers?

This is definitely true. I started trading in 2018 and I discovered how big was the impact of these fast fast trades only in 2022

Sent using the NexusFi mobile app

tigertrader 

Personally, I believe the answer is deceptively simple. You can only "take" what the market gives you. If you go into the game without any expectations, there's a good chance you won't be disappointed, and you won't become frustrated. And, you will trade well! The trick is to make the best out of the cards that have been dealt you. Don't focus on your “expectations” of the market and how much money you're going to take from it; just trade what's there. There will be days you can trade from the opening-to-close, in a low volume, small range, low vol environment, and make very good money. You just have up your size and adjust your style. And, then THERE will be days when the market breaks out, reverses, or continues a trend; and, you can milk it for days, trading around the position. Be patient, then aggressive. P&L below is from 01/11/2023 the day before the CPI release. It was exactly the kind of day I described above. But, there were plenty of intraday moves. I was trading 1-3 units (7lots/unit) at a crack, with very little risk, using the $TICK, VWAP, and options flow. There is almost always money to be made, if you are able to adapt to the market presented you.

Blessed you with your view on the market as a "living thing" and not as precise "enter here and exit there" within strict market conditions and timeframe.

I have an additional/different perspective to the ones shared previously:

Discretionary day-trading like any other style is only as simple, complex or difficult as you wish to make it. There are very simple methods, strategies and systems you can use that only day-trade once a week, or even less frequent.

Algorithmic day-trading attempts to eliminate much of the mental bandwidth and risks of inconsistency that can be associated with discretionary; but it does not eliminate some of the idiosyncracies that PsychoDude alluded to i.e being cut out for day trading, emotions etc.

One of the problems in the retail space is too many traders subscribe to the idea that day trading is:
- the "hardest" form of trading
- slower/longer timeframes are better than shorter-timeframes
- there's more "noise" on shorter timeframes
- day traders don't survive in the long-term
- day traders are just hamsters spinning a wheel

All the above are generalisations on the basis that most day traders lose money or this concept that "there's more noise thus more erratic movement, thus its riskier"; or something along that theme.

As most day-traders deal in smaller timeframes, all they really deal with is more data <-- And its only because of 'more data' that we have more "noise", but really more everything from volatility to opportunity. Note "opportunity", not reward (or risk for that matter).

Again I should stress that if lower timeframes were inherintly "riskier"- the likes of Citadel, market-makers or HFT would not engage in those timeframes or horizons. Yes they have plenty of tech and latency advantages; but there are edges everywhere that carry acceptable levels of risk and day trading is there too.

In essence- day-trading doesn't have to be what you may think it means. Many institutions and professionals have weekly, monthly and quarterly targets they adhere to. And they day trade towards those targets. On some desks I've been on, day traders only trade once a week on a news announcement or following some technical/orderbook event, and THATS IT!

Another, perhaps retail trader-friendly analogy I can give is this:
1 ES point p/ week. Do that.
1 point per week is nothing to laugh at, when it's achieved 52 weeks in a year. Consistently, day in day out. There are many ways to do this obviously.

Also- this just 1 example of a strategy, which could be used aside many other strategies, or across various markets; or even just in one market with size.

^^ And on that point: Serious money isn't made by extracting more from the markets. Its made with size (volume).

In summary:
- Day trading is no more "risker" in terms of tech, capital or mental bandwidth than swing-trading, HFT, or even long-term buy & hold; as all have their risk profiles and caveats.

- It really comes down to what you make of it.

- What the market offers is definately one thing <-- that is the opportunity.
But that shouldn't stop you from also thinking outside that, by considering how to make your trading as easy, as almost guaranteed as possible.

In other words:
1. What can you do to protect your downside ALL THE TIME when day trading, leaving nothing to chance
2. What can you do to almost guarantee success after every kind of loss.

If you:
- Protect your capital
- Build so much robustness & redundancy in your approach/strategy/systems (i.e loose pants fit all)
- Account for being punched in the face 3x more than you expect

you're on your way to winning the game before you even start.

Too often I saw guys lose because unrealistic expectations or simply not having the mindset of already having won the game (knowing with full confidence they can reach their targets because they are small or realistic).

If you believe you can make 1 point every week without fail, you're halfway there.
All thats left is a strategy that can be executed consistently.
When you do that consistently, you can then try for 2 pts.

If you can't do that per week, try 1point per month!
Because there's no shame in making money every month when most people lose.

Again, its just a different perspective, a different mindset. Clearly not only way; but it was how I went from retail to insto.

If you believe you can make 1 point every week without fail, you're halfway there.
All thats left is a strategy that can be executed consistently.
When you do that consistently, you can then try for 2 pts.
If you can't do that per week, try 1point per month!
Because there's no shame in making money every month when most people lose.



GIGO...

It's this kind of advice that sets new traders back interminably.

It's going to be impossible to develop a "strategy that can be executed consistently" trying to make 1 point a week /mo.

This is teaching someone how to maximize the chance of gain, rather than how to maximize their gains.

tigertrader 

consistently

That is one of those words that must not be in use in high-margin speculations.

The only consistent thing in this world is that we all gonna die lol)

tigertrader 

GIGO... It's this kind of advice that sets new traders back interminably. It's going to be impossible to develop a "strategy that can be executed consistently" trying to make 1 point a week /mo. This is teaching someone how to maximize the chance of gain, rather than how to maximize their gains.

Executing a strategy consistently isn’t impossible. Automation and algorithms exist for this precise reason (amongst others). If not automating, you can execute consistently enough (i.e 60-80%) and still come out consistently profitable the other side.

Note I’m referring to execution here, not win rate. As mentioned earlier- if you build enough robustness and redundancy into your trading and account for all manner of mistakes/inconsistency/missed days/trades/tech failures etc; then you are well on your way to where you need to be.

I can see how that all can be interpreted as maximising the chance of gain (or having a high win rate)- and ultimately there is nothing wrong with that as at the end of the day, all of us are simply playing a probability by utilising an edge.

That is not the point though.

The point is that of consistency which is what alludes every new trader. Having weekly or monthly targets is a layer of money management on top of any strategy to help with consistency in the beginning. Irrespective whether you have a 30% win rate @ 1:4 RR, or 40% win rate @ 1:2 R:R.

As I said- once you’re consistent, then you can focus on increasing points (maximising gains) later.

I know this because I spent many years trying to maximise gains, thinking I would make more money, before realising that real gains come from position sizing as stated earlier.

I’m not against maximising gains, but consistency comes first even if it means you are consistently there every day and not trading (if that is your plan towards becoming a day trader).

There are also risks associated with the mindset of trying to “maximise gains”; which in the algorithmic world can be viewed as optimising.

Consider that:
- Not all edges last forever, they can come & go or completely stop working
- You carry less risk with 5 setups or 5 strategies that do 1 point each, rather than 1 strategy that does 5 points (diversification)
- It’s easier to have a non-optimised, loosely fit strategy/system that works across a variety of market environments/regimes by taking out a little rather than try and maximise gains (robustness)

Additionally- not all forms of trading focus on maximising gains (i.e some scalping methods, arbitrage, pairs trading/net neutral, hedging etc). Many methods/styles are also actually more consistent by not trying to maximise gains.

And this comes back to the original question/topic of the thread - trade duration.

I’ve always found trade duration to be a reflection of the type of setup/strategy it is. It must make sense relative to what you’re trying to achieve. For example:

With momentum & trend following strategies, you obviously need time to maximise gains required for those strategies to work; and at the same time cutting positions quick (so majority of losers will be grouped in shorter time windows as profitable positions run longer).

With scalping the distribution is a lot more even (normal) and time/trying to maximise gains can work against the strategy.

Mean reverting strategies also tend to favour higher win rates over maximising gains so again, shorter time windows of profitability.

As to whether SBtrader82 should use a time stop- there’s only one answer to that: Test it.

@NQturnal: Good stuff! I agree with most of what you wrote. It was the statement in your initial post about 1 point a month that perplexed me. That would be like Tom Brady’s youth coach saying that Brady should be happy with 1 completion a week/month. Then all he has to do is learn how to run an offense, and learn how to read defenses. What’s so difficult about that? Something tells me Brady threw a lot of balls to get where he is today!