Moderator Notice Everyone, This is a review thread for Apex. Please keep this thread on topic.

None of the prop firms did this proposition Where they limit your losses to save your account if you go on tilt, revenge trade or just have plain bad luck. The cash cow is resets not the 10% they make when someone is funded. If I am wrong please do tell. Now, I will suggest, why not limit losses to $500 per day on a $25k account so traders don’t exceed this and you control this on your end. It is possible because once you blow the trailing drawdown your algos automatically stop trading and the account is done. So in theory they are limited to 3 $500 day losses and voila. End of day drawdown as well is another or static drawdown as well. Trailing drawdown is another cash revenue stream. There are firms with these types of accounts.

The competition is opening up. I see a future where prop firms and firms that provide funding challenges will end up moving to a business model where their main revenue is the 10% cut.

I could care less if I trade sim or with real money just as long as my winnings come to me. Investors lost with Enron, they lost with the Bernie madoff types. Certainly traders can lose with firms that give you live sim accounts as well.

I appreciate that these firms do exist. I love trading as a hobby even though I suck balls at it sometimes. Good luck to all.

Tudman 

None of the prop firms did this proposition Where they limit your losses to save your account if you go on tilt, revenge trade or just have plain bad luck. The cash cow is resets not the 10% they make when someone is funded. If I am wrong please do tell. Now, I will suggest, why not limit losses to $500 per day on a $25k account so traders don’t exceed this and you control this on your end. It is possible because once you blow the trailing drawdown your algos automatically stop trading and the account is done. So in theory they are limited to 3 $500 day losses and voila. End of day drawdown as well is another or static drawdown as well. Trailing drawdown is another cash revenue stream. There are firms with these types of accounts. The competition is opening up. I see a future where prop firms and firms that provide funding challenges will end up moving to a business model where their main revenue is the 10% cut. I could care less if I trade sim or with real money just as long as my winnings come to me. Investors lost with Enron, they lost with the Bernie madoff types. Certainly traders can lose with firms that give you live sim accounts as well. I appreciate that these firms do exist. I love trading as a hobby even though I suck balls at it sometimes. Good luck to all.

You can easily set a daily loss limit through Rithmic R Trader so if you trade with any funding firm that uses Rithmic (more than 90% of them do) you can set the daily losss limit of your choice.

Moderator Notice Everyone: This is the review thread for ApexTraderFunding. The discussion in this thread has suddenly become about @Topstep vs. Apex. This is a legitimate concern for members who are deciding between the two, since they are competitors in the same space. However, some of the recent discussion has been fueled by disagreement with posts by @Topstep itself in the thread, favorably comparing itself to its competition, and in one case directly to Apex. Competing vendors should not post in competitors' threads. If the thread was of a generic subject, then multiple vendors and competitors could post within it (within normal FIO rules regarding non-promotional vendor posting). But not in a thread where the primary subject is a competitor. I have deleted two recent posts by @Topstep in this thread. Unfortunately, because they quoted the deleted posts, I have also had to delete posts by @Baudo and @VirtualMark, who were doing nothing wrong, but whose posts preserve the @Topstep posts in this thread that have been removed. Disagreement about the value of different vendors is fine, and is part of the purpose of a review. We ask that all concerned stay within appropriate bounds, and respect the topic of the thread. Thanks. Bob.

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Edit: best location for Topstep questions/concerns would be their AMA thread:

Topstep's Nick Dolby (Social Media and Community Coordinator) - Ask me Anything (AMA) Michael Patak, the Founder of TopstepTrader, will be monitoring this thread so that he may answer any questions that you post here relating to TST products and services. Please keep in mind that some customer service/technical support issues are best …

bobwest 

[mod] I have deleted two recent posts by @Topstep in this thread. Unfortunately, because they quoted the deleted posts, I have also had to delete posts by @Baudo and @VirtualMark, who were doing nothing wrong, but whose posts preserve the @Topstep posts in this thread that have been removed. Disagreement about the value of different vendors is fine, and is part of the purpose of a review. We ask that all concerned stay within appropriate bounds, and respect the topic of the thread. Thanks. Bob.

Hereby I repost my reflections on APEX compared to Topstep without the quote.. Maybe it is of some interest to some readers.



For me Topstep is DEFINITELY TOO EXPENSIVE compared to others.
- Same account size, much higher costs.
- You have to finish the combine twice (where in other accounts this second pass would have become profits in the paid account). After that a sim account
- Tricky rules than can accidentally get your account closed
- Data fees of 110$ per exchange are ridicilously high compared to other providers. The explanation that that is the case because of the master account, doesn't change anything to that.


If people are tricked into cheap accounts, and for example take 10 eval accounts at apex for the price of one topstepaccount, that increases their chances of failure indeed because you tend to loose focus if account is cheap and easily replaceable - especially when there's no scaling or consistency rule in place. But to say that the expensive structure of Topstep increases your chances because it makes you more cautious because it is expensive, that is in my opinion a VERY AWKARD defense of maintaining high prices.

Had topstep, passed it, and got paid. Nevertheless Topstep ahs become a no-go for me. Too much rules, too much combines (after which you still get offered a sim account), too high prices, and way too high, recurring data fees.

Michael Patak calls himself Chief Visionary Officer. However completely missed the boat with the new wave of prop firms and made it a totally unattractive proposition. TopStep rules also got changed very often last two years, so Topstep doesn't seem to be very steady or 'visionary' in their view of what is best way to design an evaluation program. So in my opinion, not much vision there.


Transparancy?
Regarding the transparency argument of Topstep above. Other companies are very transparant about the costs too. For example Apex: 85 bucks after eval monthly, 140 for lifetime. That's all.


I see one big advantage of Topstep: they come across as, and have been proven to be, very trustworthy also when it comes to payouts. Customer service was imo good indeed, but not that much better than other experiences I had.

However unfortunately, like other firms, they do have rules about the amount you can get paid out and what you need to achieve before you are eligible for payout. I had to make a certain amount of profit days (5?) in order for them to pay out your profits... talking about shady and not transparent, hadn't read that ANYWHERE until I got the contract.

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bobwest 

[mod] I have deleted two recent posts by @Topstep in this thread. Unfortunately, because they quoted the deleted posts, I have also had to delete posts by @Baudo and @VirtualMark, who were doing nothing wrong, but whose posts preserve the @Topstep posts in this thread that have been removed. Disagreement about the value of different vendors is fine, and is part of the purpose of a review. We ask that all concerned stay within appropriate bounds, and respect the topic of the thread. Thanks. Bob.

Hereby I repost my two reflections on APEX compared to Topstep without the quote.. Maybe it is of some interest to some readers.This was a direct reply on the response that topstep posted here on my former post above. The Topstep post has been deleted from this thread.

I revisited point 3 about the rules (thanks to their reaction in their deleted post. Topstep clarified they have discarded a lot of the previous rules like weekly loss limit or trading the news in the combine).


I'd prefer Apex ANYTIME above Topstep, although there are other interesting options, in my opinion Earn2Trade and TakeProfitTrader but all three for different reasons.

Let's address this point by point by the response of topstep above:

1. Topstep has with same account size much higher costs?
APEX runs a permanent 50% off so it's half as expensive as topstep 50k account. Therefore you can't say topstep is at the low end as topstep states above.
Additionally, the 'discounts' of topstep are never as spectacular as with the other companies.

2. You have to finish the combine twice
This is stilll true. As is confirmed with the response above. You have to do it twice at topstep instead of once. Also: if you fail, you have to immediately enter again (in 1 month). Of you apply later than that, you have to do both combines again. This way they try to motivate you to stay in the program and pay a new monthly fee asap.

3. Tricky rules
Ok, many of the rules have been removed. Topstep has the advantage that you have an end of day loss limit instead of a live trailing drawdown, this is a HUGE ADVANTAGE above APEX because the trailing drawdown is tricky to keep track of (you have to login to Rithmic for that). Not having this trailing DD increases your chances of quickly finishing the combine big time because you can safely scale up your risk per trade if you are somewhat up for the day, with no effects on your drawdown as is the case with APEX. Earn2Trade also has EOD-drawdown and take profit trader too. So it's not unique, but a disadvantage of apex (this is killing a huge amount of the evals I suppose). So this is disadvantage of APEX, I stand corrected. However, Takeprofittrader and E2T are much easier because only one evaluation step there instead of 2 with topstep. A big advantage with these two firms.

4. Data fees
You still have to pay them up front, ridiculously high. No costs at apex for this; costs at takeprofittrader are only 12 bucks per exchange (non-professional fees) so 90% less as with topstep. Earn2trade I don't know but if I'm right with the Trading Career Path they subtract it from your payout, so you are not billed on your credit card for that.

RESET fees
If you take 1 topstepaccount and need to reset you pay a ridiculous 99$ for that! Apex it's 80$ for a reset.

So total costs for example 1 month 50k account + 2 resets:
- Topstep 165+2x99$ = 363$
- APEX 82,50 + 160$ = 242$
So topstep 50% more expensive than APEX

After that you pay at APEX a monthly activation fee 85$ and with Topstep 110$ data fees PER EXCHANGE. If you trade ES/NQ and UB (treasures) that's 220 for topstep and 85$ per month for apex.

So with the funded account topstep then is 2,5 times more expensive than Apex. You can choose for an intermediate account where you don't have to pay fees until you reach 5k, but after that your first have to pay your fees (and gain 5 profitable days in a row) to be eligible for payout at topstep. So you still have to get billed AND prove to trade 5 profitable trading days before being able to pay yourself your profits from the pro account.


Hands down APEX, EARN2TRADE and TAKEPROFIT are the better one for me. Topstep for me is too expensive as mentioned above, the post above by topstep confirms that to me, as I elaborated in this post.

APEX's model is heavily designed for profiting of failing traders, by giving them a lot of freedom, motivate them to buy a lot of evaluations at a huge discount etc. But I don't mind. All these companies earn their money off failing aspiring traders.

APEX are masters in customer psychology by playing the game in completely different way, for example large discounts 90% last December and two weeks later offering 50% off for the resets (because probably 95% of the accounts have been blown), how smart from a business perspective. They know how to sell a lot and how to make everything sound as a bargain while their customers are probably spending much more than they normally were intended to do. Smart salesmen.

Topstep paid out 7.2 mil last three years where apex paid out 8.1mil last year alone. So not only failing traders there. Topstep is previous era prop firm for me. Nothing distinct in their proposition, no vision (they stripped all the rules that were intended to shape you into a good responsible trader, so no distinction there). Not a leading firm anymore, no convincing proposition to me. At least I don't see it. Its proposition is a mess. Time for a new Chief Visionary Officer you'd think. But since he is the founder, I expect he'll probably stay in place and drag the company down to nothingness. The futures funding market is too competitive now, I don't see how you will stay in the game as a company if you don't have a specific advantage to offer, like E2T (props for the excellent trading career path), TPT (props for the quick payout) or APEX for example (props for the freedom and the discounts).

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In this thread we can compare funding firms:

TST/OneUp/LeeLoo/Earn2Trade Hello, Looking to try one of these funding companies but wanted to get some feedback from those have done research on any of them, funded by them or looking to try one out? Question regarding the trailing drawdown. Lets say you have $1500 max trailing …

Baudo 

Data fees of 110$ per exchange are ridicilously high compared to other providers. The explanation that that is the case because of the master account, doesn't change anything to that.

Baudo 

4. Data fees You still have to pay them up front, ridiculously high. No costs at apex for this; costs at takeprofittrader are only 12 bucks per exchange (non-professional fees) so 90% less as with topstep. Earn2trade I don't know but if I'm right with the Trading Career Path they subtract it from your payout, so you are not billed on your credit card for that.

Slightly off the primary subject but the CME rules on this are very simple. If your trading somebody else's money then your a professional and you pay professional data fees.
If somebody isn't charging you these fees (for CME) then either
a/ They are cheating CME
b/ Your not really trading real money (ie your really only trading sim - very possible case??)
c/ The provider is paying the data feed themselves. (Unlikely since these are obviously money making enterprises!)

Phoenixoboros 

In this thread we can compare funding firms:

Good idea @Phoenixoboros I was going to suggest to @bobwest that he move the relevant posts to a new thread rather than delete them.

SMCJB 

Good idea @Phoenixoboros I was going to suggest to @bobwest that he move the relevant posts to a new thread rather than delete them.

It is legitimate for non-vendor members to compare the plusses and minuses of firms in the same line of business within a review thread. The problem was when Topstep entered into a competitor's thread, essentially with its own review.

The other posts were deleted only because they quoted the Topstep post, not for their own sake, and can be reposted, as @Baudo did (he asked if he could, by the way, via DM) without the quote.

Bob.

ApexTraderFunding 

I did not make the rules but I will forward it to the boys in charge.

Hi,

It's exciting that you now offer the ability to trade EUREX through Tradovate, can you please suggest to the boys in charge to enable it in Rithmic also? That would be amazing!

Regards,