bobwest 

How utterly, totally strange. I used to be more on top of what they were doing, so this must have been added after my interest drifted away from them. Or maybe I just skipped over it. But what a strange rule this is. I do get their point about sim trading being different from live, and you can have a lot of unrealistic fills and so look better than you really are.... but not to such a great extent that it lets you pass the Combine due to many 1 or 2 tick inaccuracies in your fills. Even a whole lot of extra 1 and 2 ticks is not going to push you over the top. I do, by the way, totally agree with the statement that many or most traders who typically hold under 20 seconds lose.... also, many or most traders who hold under 20 minutes lose.... also, under 20 hours.... or, 20 days. Etc. Most traders lose, some quickly, some more slowly. The seconds don't matter, except if you trade poorly you can lose more quickly. But I don't think that slightly better sim fills will boost a trader up into apparent profitability, not consistently. And I don't think that x number of seconds matters, except that a bad trader who is doing a lot of bad trades will lose faster. Anyway, I agree with you that this is a ridiculous rule. But you're right, they don't want very short-term trading, even if the trader can pass the test in sim. Oh well.... Bob.

I'm not trading my personal account while in the OneUp evaluation (this, of course, is costing ME money). Anyway, I do have my live data feed up with my algo running and watch the order flow as I execute a trade on the OneUp sim account.
I have them on separate computers so there's no problem with Ninja. My observation has been that there is little or no difference between the live and sim account. I have the algo running on both accounts and the executions are the same for the most post. The order flow is exactly the same so I'm not getting bad data - and that's the most important aspect of my trading style. So you are right - 1 or 2 ticks isn't going to blow your account or make you a star trader.

What's strange is that they eliminate that 20 second rule when you're funded. Doesn't make sense. If their statistics are so convincing, why would they allow funded traders, who are risking real money, to engage in a behavior they believe is detrimental? More questions than answers on the 20 second rule. I'm a trader, not a crystal ball operator. I have no idea how long I'm going to be in a trade once it's executed - and it would be a distraction to worry about it.

My guess would be (and it's strictly a guess) is that TopStep and/or their investors have lost money with some scalpers. Some may have tried to game the system too which resulted in losses for TopStep.

I trade 6 on my live account. I'm trading 6 on the evaluation account. My motivation is to see whether I can scale up without adding $3,000 per lot to my live account (3x margin requirement). If I can scale up on their dime, it might be worth it.
Howard Roark is correct on the cushion. OneUp requires a $5,500 cushion on the $150,000 account to withdraw. This actually makes sense because once you hit your trailing draw down of $150,000, it's your money that you're really trading. TopStep will allow you take all your profits out - however, if your trailing draw down is at $150,000, you have no capital to trade!!
I could trade 6 with a $5,500 cushion. My average loss is about $1,000 so I haven't gotten anywhere near the $5,5000 in the evaluation account.
But I would add $1,000 for each additional lot. That's a lot less than $3,000 per lot.
We'll see how it goes.

Howard Roark 

It looks to me like another rule designed to help them eliminate traders. Like the silly rule OneUp have for funded traders who need to generate 50 % of the volume they did in the evaluation on a weekly basis. By contract, OneUp (MES) can actually cancel an account if a trader have a profitable week, but doesn't meet his weekly volume requirements. I know there are funded traders who actually trade micros just to meet their volume quota. Just silly. All these rules and restrictions and a whole lot of other stuff have me convinced that they have no real interest in actually funding traders. That's not to say they are scams or that they won't pay out. I certainly believe they do. And have talked to people who have withdrawn. However, I'm pretty much convinced it's not something they really have any interest in. They're just selling the dream of a $150K account which really is at best a $5K of margin. That's the good thing about LeeLoo. They virtually have zero rules. You can trade through the Close, too. And hold overnight. The drawback is that they have a trailing drawdown which trails from unrealized profits and which never drops. So, effectively you're always one bad day from a blow-up. Of course, if you trade very small or simply are very good you can survive. But that kind of defeats the purpose of such a deal. If there exist a company that have serious interest in funding a trader and letting him trade some size. Even if further down the line. Please let me know.

Yes, I agree that for some traders, the 50% volume rule just wouldn't work. For me, I do the same thing every day - same time, same trades so it really shouldn't affect me too much.

You're right about the cushion of $5,500. But it actually makes sense because I think they all have the trailing draw down rule i.e. once you reach the $150,000 mark, that's it. You're on your own. So if you keep $5,500 in the account that's essentially your margin, as you said. It's still better than 3x day margins. I know some people don't agree with me on the 3x margin, but I've been around long enough to know that a Black Swan day happens. In any case, I don't see it as a big detriment.

As I said in another post to Bob, my motivation is to see if I can scale up on their dime without adding $3,000 per lot. We'll see how my idea works out.

phantomtrader 

What's strange is that they eliminate that 20 second rule when you're funded. Doesn't make sense. If their statistics are so convincing, why would they allow funded traders, who are risking real money, to engage in a behavior they believe is detrimental? More questions than answers on the 20 second rule. I'm a trader, not a crystal ball operator. I have no idea how long I'm going to be in a trade once it's executed - and it would be a distraction to worry about it.

I had the same question. I can see why they would have a rule like this (whether I agree with it or not) in the Combine, because when a trader gets funded the company suddenly is at risk for their losses, up to a point at least. So if they think it's a bad way to trade, then keeping them from getting funded in the first place is a good idea. But when they then allow it for funded traders they are going to have to deal with it then. I guess they figure that if someone makes it out of the Combine they will have shown they are not as bad a risk.

Quoting 

My guess would be (and it's strictly a guess) is that TopStep and/or their investors have lost money with some scalpers. Some may have tried to game the system too which resulted in losses for TopStep.

My guess is the same. Once burned, twice shy.

Bob.

phantomtrader 

Yes, I agree that for some traders, the 50% volume rule just wouldn't work. For me, I do the same thing every day - same time, same trades so it really shouldn't affect me too much.

Yeah. I just question the motivation behind the rule I suppose.

phantomtrader 

You're right about the cushion of $5,500. But it actually makes sense because I think they all have the trailing draw down rule i.e. once you reach the $150,000 mark, that's it. You're on your own. So if you keep $5,500 in the account that's essentially your margin, as you said. It's still better than 3x day margins. I know some people don't agree with me on the 3x margin, but I've been around long enough to know that a Black Swan day happens. In any case, I don't see it as a big detriment. As I said in another post to Bob, my motivation is to see if I can scale up on their dime without adding $3,000 per lot. We'll see how my idea works out.

As a funded trader you start with a 150K account. You can have a drawdown all the way to 145 001 and still be in the game. The trailing drawdown then trails as your account grows and will stop at 150K once your account reaches 155K. At that point, I don't think it decreases (or increases). So if you dip below 150K then you're out of the game.

Building a cushion isn't a big detriment long term, but if you compare for example with Earn2Trade you start earning money right away. Meaning if you earn 8K as a funded trader - those 8K are yours. While with OneUp/MES you have to earn 13K to earn 8K.

OneUp says the first 8K of profits are yours, but it's a bit misleading when they don't say you have to first earn a 5K of cushion to withdraw those 8K.

I'm sure it's all in the fine print, but it's not something they make sure to mention as far as I can see.

Wishing you continued success.

Howard Roark 

Yeah. I just question the motivation behind the rule I suppose. As a funded trader you start with a 150K account. You can have a drawdown all the way to 145 001 and still be in the game. The trailing drawdown then trails as your account grows and will stop at 150K once your account reaches 155K. At that point, I don't think it decreases (or increases). So if you dip below 150K then you're out of the game. Building a cushion isn't a big detriment long term, but if you compare for example with Earn2Trade you start earning money right away. Meaning if you earn 8K as a funded trader - those 8K are yours. While with OneUp/MES you have to earn 13K to earn 8K. OneUp says the first 8K of profits are yours, but it's a bit misleading when they don't say you have to first earn a 5K of cushion to withdraw those 8K. I'm sure it's all in the fine print, but it's not something they make sure to mention as far as I can see. Wishing you continued success.

Yes, you can take all your profits out with E2T, but if you withdraw the first $8,000 and your balance is back at $150,000, you have nothing to trade with. The draw down stays at $150,000 once you reach it. So with all these companies it looks like you must build a cushion which remains in the account. If you don't, the risk of going below $150,000 is high and you'll lose the account. The only difference I see is that OneUp requires $5,500. TopStep has another convoluted method for withdrawals, but the same draw down rule applies - once your reach $150,000 it stays there.

phantomtrader 

Yes, you can take all your profits out with E2T, but if you withdraw the first $8,000 and your balance is back at $150,000, you have nothing to trade with. The draw down stays at $150,000 once you reach it. So with all these companies it looks like you must build a cushion which remains in the account. If you don't, the risk of going below $150,000 is high and you'll lose the account. The only difference I see is that OneUp requires $5,500. TopStep has another convoluted method for withdrawals, but the same draw down rule applies - once your reach $150,000 it stays there.

I understand. Considering you actually need to retain a cushion in your E2T account that's a fair point. Of course, some traders would be happy to just withdraw their 8K and be gone, but for a long term trader I can see why it wouldn't make that much of a difference.

Still something that's worth keeping in mind for those interested in trying this.

Howard Roark 

Update: I had an ongoing correspondance with MES Capital customer support yesterday and wanted to see how it ended before giving any details. I was hoping my account would be re-opened, but it ended with me getting paid 20 % of the $3.8K I had generated prior to the rulebreak. I do think OneUp / MES is probably the best get-funded company, but I’m not convinced that they actually want traders to succeed? And my recent experience kind of proves that. I was $7K in profit – yet they chose to liquidate my account without giving me a warning. In customer support they later on accused me of having broken the rules FIVE times prior to that and holding overnight on the 29th (I was not funded then), too. It turns out they were mixing my account up with someone elses. I wonder why that guy wasn’t liquidated when he held overnight then? It seems to me that as a funded trader you’re initially trading on a simulator. So, if you progress so far as to getting paid, your profits are paid directly from the company. As such, they might not really want you to get that far. Their main income is probably collecting subscription fees. I may very well be wrong, but this does seem suspicious to me if I can be perfectly honest. Now, let's just all root for phantomtrader to continue his great trading and stay funded!

LOL. Good to see they're still using that excuse.

Well tomorrow is the 15th day. I'm up at $160,000. Had a bad day yesterday with one very questionable trade - when reviewing my trades I saw I was long 12 lots at one point! The max I trade is 6. I will add 2 if the numbers suggest there's a break, but never 12. I hit my max daily draw down because of that. I was up at $163,500. Made $2,000 back today. Haven't decided whether I'm going to ask them about that 12 lot trade. I traded badly and took too many trades overall. I was ahead right to my target goal for the day. Should have stopped there. Would've, should've, didn't!! (I think it was Hillary Clinton who said that).

Zambi 

LOL. Good to see they're still using that excuse.

What? They did that with you?

phantomtrader 

Well tomorrow is the 15th day. I'm up at $160,000. Had a bad day yesterday with one very questionable trade - when reviewing my trades I saw I was long 12 lots at one point! The max I trade is 6. I will add 2 if the numbers suggest there's a break, but never 12. I hit my max daily draw down because of that. I was up at $163,500. Made $2,000 back today. Haven't decided whether I'm going to ask them about that 12 lot trade. I traded badly and took too many trades overall. I was ahead right to my target goal for the day. Should have stopped there. Would've, should've, didn't!! (I think it was Hillary Clinton who said that).

That's the thing. One such mistake and you could be toast.

But with the evaluation it shouldn't be a problem.

If you were up 8K on the funded account - maybe it would?

Glad to see you recovered.