Hi all,

I'll speak generally, but it's my impression that these get-funded programs business model is mostly to generate income from traders failing the programs and continuing to try. Nothing wrong with that of course as they're offering a legitimate opportunity and as growns adults it's our choice entirely.

I'm even questioning if some of these firms have any legitimate interest in actually funding a trader and long term letting such a trader eventually be trading a larger account? The reason being that some of these rules may be considered way too restrictive and while I understand the need for risk management/discipline there's no need to make things designed for a trader to fail.

Does anybody know? It's my impression that many seem to withdraw profits as soon as they have some and quit. Or are there any accounts of people who stay with such a firm once funded and actually grow it into a big account?

Thanks in advance.

Howard

For what it's worth - I'm currently doing a program with one of these companies and I'm well on my way with 5/5 profitable days so far. The key for me to succeeding is to trade with very small size and shoot for conservative targets as that's the only way I can make it by program design. For example, I can't have a day that's 'too profitable' as that would screw up the so called consistency parameters.

I have a lot of stuff going on privately at the moment (day job + moving to a new flat +++), so that's the reason I decided to do one of these programs in the first place. It's great practice and with a low risk to me.

I do have a hope that if I get funded this could be the chance to actually be able to trade some real money in the future if I can stay consistent, but like I said, I'm curious if they even have an interest in profitable traders.

PS: I'm getting horrible slippage on ES (as much as 3 points multiple times this week) in simulator mode, so I'm wondering if that too is something they set up by design to make you fail. LOL. Or it's the simulator in Ninja that's too realistic. Slippage on ES with real money is virtually non-existent on small positions.

I've never really looked deep into prop-firms, but just by how most of their websites are structured, they try to trigger pretty much the same part of you, like various guru-courses. And with guru-courses I have a lot of experience and I claim that at least 95% of them are complete bs.

For me the question always was and still is why I wanted to trade. And that is that I don't want to have to answer to anybody or have to take anybodies bullshit on me, and hearing of some dumb restrictions sounds to me like sucking exact the same spirit out of someone that made him get into trading in the first place.
I really think the "why do I want to trade" is probably the most important part in trading. You want to get out of your day-job and be self-responsible, then do it and don't let those suckers that want to force their shit on you come back in through the back door.
You gotta do what you now think will make you push forward, but by just asking this question about your current funding program here, you've already answered it for yourself. The goal has to be to get rid of all those disgusting second-handers that try to take advantage of you!

I hope you mean 3 Ticks slippage. I only trade the MES and get about 70% of the time no slippage and sometimes 1 Tick with IB.

Best regards
Gail Wynand

MrMojoRisin 

I've never really looked deep into prop-firms, but just by how most of their websites are structured, they try to trigger pretty much the same part of you, like various guru-courses. And with guru-courses I have a lot of experience and I claim that at least 95% of them are complete bs. For me the question always was and still is why I wanted to trade. And that is that I don't want to have to answer to anybody or have to take anybodies bullshit on me, and hearing of some dumb restrictions sounds to me like sucking exact the same spirit out of someone that made him get into trading in the first place. I really think the "why do I want to trade" is probably the most important part in trading. You want to get out of your day-job and be self-responsible, then do it and don't let those suckers that want to force their shit on you come back in through the back door. You gotta do what you now think will make you push forward, but by just asking this question about your current funding program here, you've already answered it for yourself. The goal has to be to get rid of all those disgusting second-handers that try to take advantage of you! I hope you mean 3 Ticks slippage. I only trade the MES and get about 70% of the time no slippage and sometimes 1 Tick with IB. Best regards Gail Wynand

Hi, Gail,

Thank you for your message. I fully agree with you. And truth be told - I had written off these companies until I talked to someone who allegedly have accounts with several and have pulled money out of them to fund his private acccount. So, they can be a means to an end.

As I'm not quite suited for trading my own private account at the moment I figure it's 'free practice' with some potential upside.

No, I meant 3 full points. See attached from yesterday. I was long from 12,50, locked in 2 ticks with a sell stop and got 2,5 points (10 ticks) slippage. With 3 contracts I was instantly 7,5 points in the hole. I think I got 3 points slippage my first day, but wrote it off as an error then. I think the worst slippage I've had on ES in my real account through 1000s of exeucutions is about 6 ticks and that was a one time event. Usually, stop price = fill price or at worst 1 tick slippage.

10 Ticks is really bad, especially in such a slow market like yesterday was! Do you have to use their broker, so that they could possibly have some agreement with them and some sort of high-frequency trading firm that frontrun you?
Depends on how good you know this someone, but for me, I see the worst in almost everybody in the retail-trading sector. They try to rip you off on every frickin corner and lie all the time.


Of course everybody has his own approach, but my opinion is that it's more useful to trade very small size live and with own money, than sim-trading. It's a growing process and I know for myself that if I can't even trade 1 MES contract profitable for a few weeks, I'll definitely not be able to handle more size.
I think which relationship you have with the money you are trading is a very important factor and it's best to learn in the same style as you want to do it "finally".

MrMojoRisin 

10 Ticks is really bad, especially in such a slow market like yesterday was! Do you have to use their broker, so that they could possibly have some agreement with them and some sort of high-frequency trading firm that frontrun you? Depends on how good you know this someone, but for me, I see the worst in almost everybody in the retail-trading sector. They try to rip you off on every frickin corner and lie all the time.

Note that this was in simulator mode. It's possible it's a setting in Ninja to make fills more realistic. The problem is that with ES this is not a realistic fill.

As for broker selection I don't think I have any say in that. And I'm not really afraid of a HFT company front-running me either to be honest.

Quoting 

Of course everybody has his own approach, but my opinion is that it's more useful to trade very small size live and with own money, than sim-trading. It's a growing process and I know for myself that if I can't even trade 1 MES contract profitable for a few weeks, I'll definitely not be able to handle more size. I think which relationship you have with the money you are trading is a very important factor and it's best to learn in the same style as you want to do it "finally".

Agreed.

However, there is a learning curve in this game and one of my regrets is not trading more in simulator before going live.

I'm wondering why these people charge for demo? That's the business model obviously. Real prop firms require a track record and a methodology but truly your live acct track record should be all that is needed.

Prop firms that are legit offer excellent fees commission since everyones trades aggregate for discounts as well as member rates and top technology as well as lots of other traders to talk to work with. Real prop firms want you making money of course.

But these recent gauntlet tryout prop firms seem unusual but they must be making tons on people paying to trade demo.

Doubtful any real prop firm would accept demo results as real result

i wanted to say something about my precious post n the gauntlet type prop firms where you pay to trade demo.

I WILL SAY that if you are doing this then it should help your actual trading! i mean we all cheat at DEMO.

these same companies should also offer a much cheaper tier of demo trading where you are not trying to get FUNDED but you are trying to stay honest with your demo trades.

so eventhough I am suspect of these types of "propfirms" that allow demo trading results to fund people i do see a REAL WORLD benefit to new or struggling traders who want
to froce themeselves to keep it real in demo and also to keep certain risk parameters set by the prop firms in order to trade properly so

if you want to shell out real money to trade demo then go for it because it will probably save you money in the long run if you were trading real money in the marekts.

Have a great day

Cutloss 

I am suspect of these types of "propfirms" that allow demo trading results to fund people

I think that's relatively easdily accounted for by the reality that they're funding only a very small proportion, and only temporarily, and with pretty small amounts really, when you look at their loss-limits, maximum permitted drawdowns trailing open equity, and so on.

(In these days of micros, it might be harder for many aspirants to justify the cost, but that's a different matter and one we can all work out for ourselves.)

Howard Roark 

Note that this was in simulator mode. It's possible it's a setting in Ninja to make fills more realistic. The problem is that with ES this is not a realistic fill. As for broker selection I don't think I have any say in that. And I'm not really afraid of a HFT company front-running me either to be honest. Agreed. However, there is a learning curve in this game and one of my regrets is not trading more in simulator before going live.

if you really want an answer to the slippage in the ES question and your demo account then you would need to give the exact time including the seconds that your demo order gave you a "bad fill" anyone who says there is no slippage in ES even on 1 lots has never traded live before! 1 is a gift lately 2 is almost the norm in a fast mkt.. ticks that is ticks. not points. a full pioint in the es is 50 bucks made up of 4... 12.50 ticks. people tend to throw aroudn points and ticks as if they are the same!

it is entrierly possile to get a 2 point slippage depending on the mkt conditions and order type that you placed.