SBtrader82 

I think that trading is comparable to playing a music instrument. You can watch many courses but you need to practice. I played classic guitar in music academy for 10+ years..... you basically get taught every technique in the first 3 years but the difference between someone who played 3 years and someone who has been playing for 10 years is incredible. Also after 10 years you have a good level but it takes much much more to become proficient..... and in a music academy you play at least 6 hours per day, every single day. Sent using the NexusFi mobile app

I played alto sax and before that, cello in elementary-->Junior HS.

I say they are very different.

Musical instruments heavily involve hand coordination, listening skills, memorization, etc. These skill sets will require much more training than a purely (basically) mental endeavor. (Admittedly, some trading styles may require hand coordination, and/or memorization, but I'm speaking generally imo.)

So much of that long training requirement for musicians is due to the non-mental aspects of playing an instrument. Whereas, it takes a long time to 'master' trading, even though there really are no such physical skills to learn, mostly mental.

Kinda like comparing a chess player to a golfer. A chess player can improve their game by completely training within their mind.

Just to be clear, I agree that it takes a "long" time ... unless you're a lucky one ... to excel at trading.

It kinda puts it in perspective when you can become a good musician after years of training, even though the training involves many different skillsets beyond the mental; yet becoming a good trader may take just as long, or longer, and only involves the mental.

userque 

I played alto sax and before that, cello in elementary-->Junior HS. I say they are very different. Musical instruments heavily involve hand coordination, listening skills, memorization, etc. These skill sets will require much more training than a purely (basically) mental endeavor. (Admittedly, some trading styles may require hand coordination, and/or memorization, but I'm speaking generally imo.) So much of that long training requirement for musicians is due to the non-mental aspects of playing an instrument. Whereas, it takes a long time to 'master' trading, even though there really are no such physical skills to learn, mostly mental. Kinda like comparing a chess player to a golfer. A chess player can improve their game by completely training within their mind. Just to be clear, I agree that it takes a "long" time ... unless you're a lucky one ... to excel at trading...

I think it is more like ... it takes a long time if you are lucky.

Those who learn quick, learn quickly they didn't learn everything.

Nothing beats experience - which can only be attained over time.

userque 

I played alto sax and before that, cello in elementary-->Junior HS. I say they are very different. Musical instruments heavily involve hand coordination, listening skills, memorization, etc. These skill sets will require much more training than a purely (basically) mental endeavor. (Admittedly, some trading styles may require hand coordination, and/or memorization, but I'm speaking generally imo.) So much of that long training requirement for musicians is due to the non-mental aspects of playing an instrument. Whereas, it takes a long time to 'master' trading, even though there really are no such physical skills to learn, mostly mental. Kinda like comparing a chess player to a golfer. A chess player can improve their game by completely training within their mind. Just to be clear, I agree that it takes a "long" time ... unless you're a lucky one ... to excel at trading. It kinda puts it in perspective when you can become a good musician after years of training, even though the training involves many different skillsets beyond the mental; yet becoming a good trader may take just as long, or longer, and only involves the mental.

Sounds like you're quite the musician. Very cool.

I imagine that some people learn to trade quickly but the majority of us take a lot of time. It took me four years just to understand that the vast number of "trading systems" didn't work and most "trading gurus" selling stuff weren't actually profitably trading.

kirkvan 

Sounds like you're quite the musician.

Thanks, but I'm afraid I've mislead you. AFAIK, I was average or below. As I got older, I just thought the sax was cooler ... so I switched.

EDIT:

Stayed on the Math team at the request of the coach. So played def. end/line backer and math team final two years of hs.

SBtrader82 

I think that trading is comparable to playing a music instrument. You can watch many courses but you need to practice. I played classic guitar in music academy for 10+ years..... you basically get taught every technique in the first 3 years but the difference between someone who played 3 years and someone who has been playing for 10 years is incredible. Also after 10 years you have a good level but it takes much much more to become proficient..... and in a music academy you play at least 6 hours per day, every single day. Sent using the NexusFi mobile app

Imagine how many years and hours someone like Christopher Parkening endured to get to his level.

That is one of the maddening things about trading - conceptually simple, very low bars to entry, but devilishly hard to actually PERFORM!

All the people I am aware of who trade daily and do it well said it took them 5-8-10 years to get profitable and really GET IT to the point they could make good money. Now they do, and they make a lot but that is what it took for them to get there.

Two Sheds 

Imagine how many years and hours someone like Christopher Parkening endured to get to his level. That is one of the maddening things about trading - conceptually simple, very low bars to entry, but devilishly hard to actually PERFORM! All the people I am aware of who trade daily and do it well said it took them 5-8-10 years to get profitable and really GET IT to the point they could make good money. Now they do, and they make a lot but that is what it took for them to get there.

yes, and imagine that what you see is just the tip of the iceberg of what he can do. I could play most of the pieces that you can see on youtube like "la Sevilla", "the chaconne by Bach", "Asturias" etc....many tens of pieces, but the professionals can play the same pieces in front of a big audience and with emotions. That's a completely different game.

So, when I am playing the same piece as a professional player, I am probably grasping only a little bit of what there is behind his understanding of that piece. That was one reason why I decided to stop playing music.
I will tell you a story (which I think has a lot to do with trading). When I was at the conservatory we had to take classes of "group music", I don't know how to say this in English. So a friend of mine who played the flute and I, got together and we found an old piece of 17th century. We studied it and we presented in front of the professor.
The professor was a famous violinist, he was the first violin in big orchestra and worldwide famous.

We played the whole piece, that he didn't know, it was quite an unknown piece. When we finished he said: "I think you played a B sharp somewhere that is wrong".... he did not look at the music scores and to explain us where the mistake was, he sat at a piano and played the whole piece by hear. The whole piece from the beginning to the end both the guitar part and the flute part.
My friend and I were almost fainting, because we realized that this professor was at a completely different level. He had been a child prodigy but indeed you don't think that these things happen.
Basically he was perceiving the music at a completely different level, for him it was really a language, it was as easy as to speak.
I know that most of you will not believe this story, but if you read about Mozart and famous composers you will see that this is something that they could do, and that is is related in many stories about them.

How this relates to trading? well, ask yourself, what if we are just seeing the surface of what big traders see?
Imagine someone seeing a professional pianist playing some study by Chopin, or a virtuoso violinist playing the Caprices by Paganini. If the spectator know nothing about music he will think that it takes 3 years to perform that piece. In reality it takes 10 + years if you are gifted otherwise you will simply never reach that level.
This sometimes scares me. Are we really perceiving the difficulty of trading ?
We see the charts, we see the ladder etc... but what if the brain of big traders works completely differently? what if there is something we are missing? Quite scary!!!

SBtrader82 

this professor was at a completely different level. He had been a child prodigy but indeed you don't think that these things happen. Basically he was perceiving the music at a completely different level, for him it was really a language, it was as easy as to speak. I know that most of you will not believe this story, but if you read about Mozart and famous composers you will see that this is something that they could do, and that is is related in many stories about them.

Reminds me of Rachmaninov - they say he could play something he only heard one time, many years before, and play it correctly.
A musical sponge LOL. Very gifted people out there.

I remember Pianist Valentina Lisitsa saying that she only has to read thru a score one time, then she owns it - its just practice and polish after that. A true photographic memory, and she can 'see' any page from any of the scores to study and rehearse. Amazing stuff!

I wonder how a brain like that would adapt to trading.

Have you also noticed that there are many musicians involved in trading? Maybe it's just my impression, but I have heard many traders that also play an instrument. For instance Steve Burns, Bruce Kovner, James Dalton and many others... it would be nice to see if the prevalence is skewed among traders compared to the rest of the population.

I think trading and music attract people with an introspective personality, and a willingness to focus on process.

Two Sheds 

Reminds me of Rachmaninov - they say he could play something he only heard one time, many years before, and play it correctly. A musical sponge LOL. Very gifted people out there. I remember Pianist Valentina Lisitsa saying that she only has to read thru a score one time, then she owns it - its just practice and polish after that. A true photographic memory, and she can 'see' any page from any of the scores to study and rehearse. Amazing stuff! I wonder how a brain like that would adapt to trading.

Sent using the NexusFi mobile app

SBtrader82 

Have you also noticed that there are many musicians involved in trading? Maybe it's just my impression, but I have heard many traders that also play an instrument. For instance Steve Burns, Bruce Kovner, James Dalton and many others... it would be nice to see if the prevalence is skewed among traders compared to the rest of the population. I think trading and music attract people with an introspective personality, and a willingness to focus on process. Sent using the NexusFi mobile app

Yes, Adam Grimes is one! Dude even built his own harpsichord and composes his own work.

https://adamhgrimes.com/

Rick at Fit Traders check out .. I have been around markets 15 years very few teach and demonstrate like Rick and others there