Maybe this question is best put to 4 people who I consider "best of the best" here:

@decarleytrading - Carley Garner, Broker Extraordinaire
@mattz - Matt Z, Owner of Optimus Futures, Terrific Resource
@SMCJB - Professional trader for many years
@artemiso - Pro's pro in trading arena


Question: Is it possible for a retail trader, trading less than XX lots, to enter a limit order for a CME product with their broker, but NOT have that quantity show up in the exchange order book? (Or maybe a better question is "under what circumstances would a CME retail trader limit order be excluded from order book?")


Sorry if I put you all on the spot, but this is an interesting question...

^From what I know, it is not possible to "hide" your filled orders, whether be it for a 1 contract or a 1,000 contract order.

Besides, the thread is trying to go in a direction showing how the vendors are trying to "show" their orders (x number of contracts) filled and executed with success, NOT trying to hide those orders.

Not sure why you asking this.

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lightsun47 

^From what I know, it is not possible to "hide" your filled orders, whether be it for a 1 contract or a 1,000 contract order. Besides, the thread is trying to go in a direction showing how the vendors are trying to "show" their orders (x number of contracts) filled and executed with success, NOT trying to hide those orders. Not sure why you asking this. Sent using the NexusFi mobile app

I asked because the general consensus is that ALL limit orders have to be shown in the book. If there is a way to keep limit orders out of the book, then the analysis earlier in the thread becomes questionable. That analysis assumes orders placed must show up in order book.

If there truly is no way to hide limit orders, then something odd is going on with the trader in post #100 - he claims his limit order did not show in book.

lightsun47 

^From what I know, it is not possible to "hide" your filled orders, whether be it for a 1 contract or a 1,000 contract order. Besides, the thread is trying to go in a direction showing how the vendors are trying to "show" their orders (x number of contracts) filled and executed with success, NOT trying to hide those orders. Not sure why you asking this. Sent using the NexusFi mobile app

Also, it is open orders, not filled orders that are the issue...

JonnyBoy 

Part 1 @gotmetoo I briefly spoke with a very respected trader on this forum via DM about what you are seeing and his response was “maybe his broker holds orders? He should probably ask his broker what is going on. He may be getting duped by his broker, for example. Why a broker would hold limit orders, I do not know.” .

Sometimes I wonder about my fills. I have had many instances in the past were I place a limit order to go long at $1.00 the market trades at 0.99 then proceeds to decline, I get filled at a dollar then drops to 0.30 cents then a send a market order to get out at .30 cents and get filled for like 0.25. When I would call my broker and asked why this keeps happening he keeps saying I am getting owned by the spread in a fast market. personally I think I was getting taken to the cleaners, paying the tab for my own shellacking, and not getting so much as a thank you for the contribution.

kevinkdog 

I asked because the general consensus is that ALL limit orders have to be shown in the book. If there is a way to keep limit orders out of the book, then the analysis earlier in the thread becomes questionable. That analysis assumes orders placed must show up in order book. If there truly is no way to hide limit orders, then something odd is going on with the trader in post #100 - he claims his limit order did not show in book.

If orders can be hidden in this fashion, would that not make order flow indicators and volume based indicators useless?

To put simply and in general your broker is probably correct.

A LMT order is a guaranteed fill at the price you specified. A MKT order will get filled at the best available price, which might be better or worse than you expected depending on where the market was trading at that moment the MKT order was actually filled.

In a thin liquidity market you may see a wide spread between the bid and ask and depending on where the market was trading at that moment it can also be a factor.

There are rules around this kind of thing with respect to your brokers behavior when handling your orders etc.

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With all the available information from the CME (links provided in prior posts), experience and confirmation from NinjaTrader (the trading platform in use here) - no matter the data feed - all LMT orders reside at the exchange via your broker if the exchange supports it, which the CME does.

If not, you could argue that it brings into question the validity of those tools if the level 2 data is 'missing' resting orders.

jeliner 

If orders can be hidden in this fashion, would that not make order flow indicators and volume based indicators useless?

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jeliner 

Sometimes I wonder about my fills. I have had many instances in the past were I place a limit order to go long at $1.00 the market trades at 0.99 then proceeds to decline, I get filled at a dollar then drops to 0.30 cents then a send a market order to get out at .30 cents and get filled for like 0.25. When I would call my broker and asked why this keeps happening he keeps saying I am getting owned by the spread in a fast market. personally I think I was getting taken to the cleaners, paying the tab for my own shellacking, and not getting so much as a thank you for the contribution.

I seem to never have that problem with NT, but I only have done futures lately and had my limit order sit at the price and take a second to fill due to all the other orders at the same price. But almost always it is instant buy or sell and its fast. I did do Forex for a very short period of time on MT4 and the spread was so bad I don't see how anyone got in or out at the price they wanted to sell or buy. I guess that's Forex and its fees is the spread of the broker. Didn't last long on that platform or Forex. But I use to use Market in and out for all my trades when I first started. It was with penny stocks and seen a lot of slippage up to 10 cents. But never had any on Futures or any problems with slow orders on NT. I used TD for penny stocks and they was pretty fast before they was free commissions. Now on TD I cant place a trade with out t bouncing around waiting to get filled. They went to crap fast with free commissions. I only use them to buy and hold a stock where to the penny isn't to much of a issue on getting in. But I have market in on Futures on NT and get in with in a tick or 2 when its moving fast. But all I think it is the broker on getting filled due to how they route the orders. The only thing I cant stand about NT is wire fee in wire fee out to get money. They need ACH deposit and withdrawals, and don't see why they don't. They said they was going to over a year ago but still nothing on it.

But anyway, has anyone set up using the indicators that DTC uses and been successful ? Still wondering how good they really stack up.