Ty199 

But anyway, has anyone set up using the indicators that DTC uses and been successful ? Still wondering how good they really stack up.

I was unsuccessful using the DTC indicators.

kevinkdog 

Maybe this question is best put to 4 people who I consider "best of the best" here: @decarleytrading - Carley Garner, Broker Extraordinaire @mattz - Matt Z, Owner of Optimus Futures, Terrific Resource @SMCJB - Professional trader for many years @artemiso - Pro's pro in trading arena Question: Is it possible for a retail trader, trading less than XX lots, to enter a limit order for a CME product with their broker, but NOT have that quantity show up in the exchange order book? (Or maybe a better question is "under what circumstances would a CME retail trader limit order be excluded from order book?") Sorry if I put you all on the spot, but this is an interesting question...

Can't say I've been in the exact situation, but combination of Series 3/7 regulatory knowledge and domain knowledge tells me if the explicit instruction is to withhold that order on server-side, e.g. using ISV order routing functionality for spreading or custom execution algo like Quantitative Brokers's fixed income algos - then yes. For that reason, it is plausible that a retail trader will experience the same treatment, though not likely.

What's more likely is that whatever data feed the retail trader is using to make this determination is highly desynced from the order gateway. I've seen that happen when I cross-reference my working orders on CME Firmsoft with a retail feed for my personal account (IQFeed) literally when my orders were making up like 20% of the top levels; I was routing directly to CME through my own iLink over colo - and the depth on IQFeed was lesser than my own orders alone! I've seen this even between the Tokyo and London sessions on FX, where there's often only 3~20 contracts at touch that don't move for long enough for you to visually compare.

The solution? For CME, I recommend everyone just inquire with their broker if they can use the CME Direct platform for click trading. I don't see why brokers won't support it, it's industry standard and I think (I don't remember paying an iLink session cost, although it might've just have been waived so I didn't remember it), much cheaper than any retail platform. You only pay for the display data, and it's waived if you do a few contracts. I use that for last resort click trading if everything else breaks. Edit: it has all the data, and I think has better UI and symbology than all of the retail platforms I've touched.

I would especially use it for options. It comes with QuikStrike which I think is the best vol curve fitting tool you can get for free. Even my colleagues at top 10 OMM firms use it.




But most importantly for this situation, CME Direct's data feed is the most correctly sync'ed I've seen over a public internet line and you can see your own order's exact queue position.

Edit: No, it cannot do charting, but you could just pair it with a charting application but use it for the order entry itself.

artemiso 

Can't say I've been in the exact situation, but combination of Series 3/7 regulatory knowledge and domain knowledge tells me if the explicit instruction is to withhold that order on server-side, e.g. using ISV order routing functionality for spreading or custom execution algo like Quantitative Brokers's fixed income algos - then yes. For that reason, it is plausible that a retail trader will experience the same treatment, though not likely. What's more likely is that whatever data feed the retail trader is using to make this determination is highly desynced from the order gateway. I've seen that happen when I cross-reference my working orders on CME Firmsoft with a retail feed for my personal account (IQFeed) literally when my orders were making up like 20% of the top levels; I was routing directly to CME through my own iLink over colo - and the depth on IQFeed was lesser than my own orders alone! I've seen this even between the Tokyo and London sessions on FX, where there's often only 3~20 contracts at touch that don't move for long enough for you to visually compare. The solution? For CME, I recommend everyone just inquire with their broker if they can use the CME Direct platform for click trading. I don't see why brokers won't support it, it's industry standard and I think (I don't remember paying an iLink session cost, although it might've just have been waived so I didn't remember it), much cheaper than any retail platform. You only pay for the display data, and it's waived if you do a few contracts. I use that for last resort click trading if everything else breaks. Edit: it has all the data, and I think has better UI and symbology than all of the retail platforms I've touched. I would especially use it for options. It comes with QuikStrike which I think is the best vol curve fitting tool you can get for free. Even my colleagues at top 10 OMM firms use it. Attachment 306635 Attachment 306636 But most importantly for this situation, CME Direct's data feed is the most correctly sync'ed I've seen over a public internet line and you can see your own order's exact queue position. Edit: No, it cannot do charting, but you could just pair it with a charting application but use it for the order entry itself.

Wow, what an amazingly in depth piece of information. Thank you!

Sharpening the pencil back to the vendor in question. They trade the RTY on the CME using the NT platform.

They are trading from Canada, likely via a broker that supports Canadian's and/or direct to the NT brokerage themselves.

On many of their trades that I have analysed where the DOM is visible, the the LMT orders they have showing in their NT DOM are much (in some cases double or triple) higher than what is actually shown in the order book.

This activity is usually a tell that the vendor is trading in SIM but masquerading the trade as if it were a LIVE dollar account.

NinjaTrader have confirmed that real LMT orders (not SIM) will get directed to the order book via the broker (regardless of data feed) providing the exchange supports it. Which of course the CME does.

In their opinion and general consensus is that this vendor is trading in SIM.

Extenuating circumstance of course would exist but these would be rare.

So, we are trying to establish the legitimacy of whether LMT orders could be disguised from the order book either via the broker or the NT platform on the CME and whether this is even allowed via SEC rules.

Remember, we are talking about a 'mom and pop' style setup here. A guy with an NT trading platform going through a reputable broker.

Sent using the NexusFi mobile app

@artemiso, it looks like something in your post is throwing off the formatting on this page, and it is affecting the whole page. I had to scroll way over to the right to find the Thanks button, which was off-screen.

Perhaps the second image needs to be trimmed. This does sometimes happen on this software.

Thanks.

Bob.

bobwest 

@artemiso, it looks like something in your post is throwing off the formatting on this page, and it is affecting the whole page. I had to scroll way over to the right to find the Thanks button, which was off-screen. Perhaps the second image needs to be trimmed. This does sometimes happen on this software. Thanks. Bob.

Looks fine here?

Thanks, @kevinkdog

Our platform(s) offer traders the ability to use Iceberg orders. These are basically limit orders in which the entirety of the quantity is held on the platform server not the exchange server. This way, the exchange and other traders only see the "tip of the iceberg" regarding the quantity. As those contracts are filled, the platform dribbles the remaining desired quantity to the exchange servers to be seen by others.

This is a more formal and detailed description: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/icebergorder.asp

decarleytrading 

Thanks, @kevinkdog Our platform(s) offer traders the ability to use Iceberg orders. These are basically limit orders in which the entirety of the quantity is held on the platform server not the exchange server. This way, the exchange and other traders only see the "tip of the iceberg" regarding the quantity. As those contracts are filled, the platform dribbles the remaining desired quantity to the exchange servers to be seen by others. This is a more formal and detailed description: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/icebergorder.asp

Thank you! Yeah, the orders in question here are definitely not Iceberg orders!

I quite literally just got sent this from a DTC member.

I have the entire email chain but for brevity I have provided the most pertinent clips here. This person apparently sent NT support a screengrab from the forum! I am just trying to work out which one. I have asked them but I guess it doesn't matter too much as anyone of them would have been OK.





If anybody has any doubts as to the legitimacy of this they can always contact NT support themselves.

Here is the remaining part of the email message that came from another DTC member via Big Mike and bobwest.

Hey JonnyBoy! I am a current DayTrading.coach member. I am trying to sort out for myself if I have been duped or not. I understand what you are saying about the indicators being, for lack of a better word, replicas of other cheaper indicators. I also watched your video of the DOM while you put in orders on the cash account vs the sim account. I am waiting on the market to open back up to test this myself with my cash account and my sim account. What you are saying certainly makes 100% sense, I just need to see it for myself. (Note: The market opened up while I was typing this and so I did test it. I do not see the increase in the number of standing orders when I placed my order with the cash account. What you are saying makes 100% logical sense as I said earlier, so it may be a setting, the instrument, or some other explanation.)

I will say that when I first looked at DTC, I got the feeling it wasn't legit. I think the more I watched, the more I convinced myself it was possible. Hope is a powerful thing I suppose. Over the last few weeks there have been some changes which I now think are a result of this forum. All these things are seemingly minor but caught my attention for some reason.

1) All the videos were taken down on the youtube channel. This was explained away by DTC. They said that there were so many videos that they were slowing down the site so they were going to take them down and would put them back up later on. This seemed odd to me as I thought all the videos were hosted on Youtube (not the actual daytrading.coach website). So taking the videos down would not change the speed of the website (and indeed it is still quite slow). But I am not a web coder so maybe I am reading too much into it.

2) Around the same time #1 happened, I noticed that the new videos that have started to appear have the "Level 2" market data covering the number of contracts "Jovan" is trading. Not sure why this caught my attention or why he would do that because it is easy to calculate the number of contracts he is using by noting the number of ticks and the PnL shown in the DOM during two different points during the trade. Probably an easier way is just to see how many contracts are listed at the profit/stop loss lines during the trade (if the trades are videoed). Either way, the box was not on the screen in any of the previous videos that I recall.

3) The students formerly had access to the coaches via email and it was posted clearly on the student portal ([email protected] [Jovan], [email protected] [Lane Jardie], etc.) but they have moved away from that system and all emails are routed through "[email protected]". Not sure this shows anything, just another change I have observed over the last few weeks. After reading this forum, I am wondering if some of the "coaches" have started to distance themselves from this?

4) "Jovan" used to post screenshots of his trades to the forum regularly. I just checked the site and I have not seen him post since Nov. 6th. However, I have seen a new "admin" post a few times since then. I do not recall seeing "Admin" post before although "Jovan" is an admin, his screen name usually appears with (@coach-jovan) underneath it. There are no trades from any of the other coaches since coach Lane posted on 11/2. Admittedly, they never posted as often as "Jovan" but still not having a post from any coach in the last 2 weeks seems strange and may point back toward my point in #3.

I feel like this is turning into a ramble at this point so I will stop. I am still struggling with all of this as I see people post trades (most likely sim trades) to the forum everyday. So does the system work? Or more likely, everyone is trading sim because it works only sometimes (as with all strategies.) Anyway, if you have any words of wisdom that you haven't already posted to the forum, I would appreciate it!

P.S.: I wasn't allowed to post to the forum since I just created an account. Truth be told, I think that is for the better until I come to a more formal conclusion.

Big Mike 

Looks fine here?

Hi @Big Mike, both @snax and I have put posts in the changelog about this problem. We both got it after viewing a post in his thread, and now the formatting is too wide on every post we view. Details in the changelog.

Bob.