minskee 

.. if you want bang for buck go to South East Asia, you could probably do 6 months on that much money. Make some friends along the way and journey together. .

You could probably do couple of years with that much money in here(in Sri lanka). I know places that will cost you no money for food and lodging. They will give you free. All you need to do is do some spiritual practice.like meditation. If you can't do meditation then you can read books. You simply just need to do is behave. then they will allow you to stay even 10 years.

First Off... Thank you for sharing your story..

It is truly wonderful to see many strangers provide time out of their day to try and assist you in your endeavor.

You and I have pretty much have had a similar path growing up, but at least you got a taste of the riches that could be provided by trading.


This may not sound right but I will explain... Embrace Depression.....

It is a mental feedback that is providing you with insight. Just imagine if you touched fire and you had no feeling in your hand to tell you that it was going to harm you. You would simply touch the fire until you would do too much damage to yourself and possibly may not be able to recover. Embrace Depression and listen to use it as a time in your life to truly start generating a series of questions you want answered. Mental Strength is required to embrace and overcome the condition also has a lot to do with being a successful trader. It is critical to exercise mental strength at this time as it is needed the most in your life. If you need help and find you can't do it alone, you must reach out to a professional.

I was able to overcome by myself by digging deeper and creating the questions I wanted answered. I no longer used my emotions and feeling , but rationalized every new answer until I could not find much wrong with it. Your answers in life must make sense to you.

I was trained as a commodities trader that had multiple millions in his account. He taught me a trend following system that appears to work for him in the late 70's, early 80's. These systems may still continue to work ( or not work ) , but you must be content with long draw downs and you must go down with the ship as you never know when that trend will start. This type of trading was not for me and I lost money as market conditions have changed and I wanted to be more in control of my trading.

I've been trading for 20 + years, but I'm not a multi millionaire. I was in your position when I had a smaller account and wanted to turn it into millions. I was day trading Stocks, Options, Futures Forex, you name it... I even tried again recently day trading Futures but it is a difficult endeavor.

Many here are saying you should stop trading, but that isn't true. I have a day job and am quite happy with my day job. I stopped Day Trading and that is when my life took a turn for the better.

I traded Non Directional Options Spreads and practiced adjustments and active Options Management and that was the first puzzle piece that turned my trading around. It is quite boring and not as active as day trading, but I was showing a positive trend month after month. It was like with anything else, it does require a large investment of time and a love for math / statistics.

I then learned more about looking at the larger picture and trading with the general market. I would gauge market internals I made trades that were as large as 500 K in general directions, but would risk only a couple of thousands. Patience and a strong stomach are required, but when you get it right. It is the quickest way to a million. I've done the math and you must understand that risk/reward tilts in the same direction. It is very rare you get a great asymmetrical risk/reward situation. I only traded when I completely felt the market could only go Down or Up with conviction. You get about 5 - 7 opportunities ( This is my estimate and some may think there are more ) a year of these quick breakdowns or powerful thrusts moves in the ES.

Bonus Trade - KODK.... Did you not think it would revert? Why did it Revert? There are options trades that could of profited in both directions. Just some food for thought....


You will have to stop chasing the Million Dollar prize and start to face the reality of trading. Separate your Dreams from your Reality and structure your life in a way that works for you.

As for your 30 K Account, keep saving until you get to about 150 - 200 K. The chances of you being successful with a 30 K account day trading is slim to none. The more you trade, the more mental capital and real capital you spend on your trades. There is overhead that you do not see and you must understand that it is eating away at you. You must be in a " I don't care " Mental State and completely happy with your life before you can make sound decisions that may lead to profits.

As for meeting a Woman and settling down, It will always make your trading more difficult, even if she completely supports you through this process as less time will be dedicated to trading. That is why it is crucial to structure your life the way you want it right now, to allow for the life you want down the road.

I love trading and don't know what else I would do with my free time. I also love the family I have and would happily give away trading in a heart beat.

The market is always there for the rest of your life. It is the opportunities that pass us by.....


Hope this helps.....

Hi,

I understand the position you are in very very well. Been there and kept trying. Often said to myself: Jesus Christ why did I started with this whole shit. Will it EVER pay off????

Key thing is:
- forget to trade with 10k, even 30k - undercapitalization cost me so much time and nerves. It is mentally far too challenging, if you expect to earn "substantial" money and not only do pocket-change-trades where it is hard to project discipline. At some point the market will serve you a sequence of price action which will make you walk out of your risk parameters (like 5% max loss per trade) and once you are sitting in a deep loss position it's hard to get out of the position, because taking the loss would cut your account so deep that there is no more point in trading it at all. You know what I am talking about. Soon you will be in "all or nothing" mindset and sooner or later account is gone.
- it is 100 times easier for your mind to carry "substantial" positions with a 50k account or 100k account than with a 20k account - and I always talk as if that is basically all assets you possess.
xx with small money you will be forced to take on extreme leverage which needs constant live monitoring and still is super risky / not worth your time !!!!!
xx with small money you are very limited in market choice (to play in size) and strategy choice (no option selling for example) and no real diversification possible
xx in terms of opportunity cost having a decent fulltime job will pay you much more than targeting 50 EUR gross profits per trade + commissions and fees often have a floor

I am trading for 13 years now, trying all markets, products, timeframes, trying to balance private life/job with the dream of getting financially independent by trading, to fund a parttime-bohemian life with enough time to pursue other goals. For some years I more or less shut down my "private life" to absolute mininmum -> "I just need to try harder"-mindset. Being far beyond the 15.000 hours mark of "training" I guarantee you it works, BUT

AMBITION ALWAYS COMES AT A HIGH PRICE.

a) you need to make huge huge sacrifices (and you already made them).
TRADING actually is high performance mind-sports = controlling your mind and emotions, keep focus etc etc. Compare it to Top-Athlethes and think how much they need to sacrifice in their early years to even get a shot becoming masters and play top-level (many of them never achieve it). 80% comes down to well developed routines, rest is daily fitness.

b) you need to make sure that you have a life next to trading - I guarantee you it is impossible to keep your mind focussed if you are depressed by lonelyness/lack of being embedded in a structured setting (i.e. trading from home, alone, day after day), even if you are usually comfortable being alone with yourself. You need a mix, a balance. Maybe 2-3 days of week trading and rest of week work in a more social job - somewhere else.

c) The markets will not run away. You can always come back at some time in the future.

d) Don't fall into the trap of "sunk cost" thinking. What lies in the past is unchangeable. Don't throw good money and lifetime after bad if you are not at least 90% sure that you really want to do it and why / that it is not just a kind of obsession. Talk to a psychologist, read psychology and trading psychology books. I am amazed how my mind plays tricks on me all the time, selfsabotaging my efforts. Try to find the underlying reasons (often having their origin in childhood of course).

IT IS ALL A QUESTION OF YOUR (conscious and unconscious) MINDSET and YOUR ABILITY TO CONTROL YOURSELF/EMOTIONS. The trading itself is rather simple - you basically only have three choices - enter, exit, do nothing (of course also add/reduce position bla bla etc.). There is nothing more you can do. the rest is up to the market.

For people like you and me who have learned what scarcity means throughout their childhood and what troubles it brings I know that money = Freedom, giving you options. If you have money, you can throw it at so many problems in life in many creative ways. It makes life just so much easier.

Nevertheless if you have the opportunity to earn a decent income by "regular" work this money usually will suffice for a nice "ordinary" life. Good to have this fallback option.

One last thing from my experience, as someone mentioned taking out loans to trade:
- DO NOT. Bank won't give you money (only against illiquid assets you might possess) and if you lend from the 3F (Family, Fools, Friends) then there is no bankcruptcy exit + not good for relationship.

If you don't have the money, you just can't play. It makes no sense.
I learned that the hard way. You will keep hitting for the jackpot at some point (=gambling). It is just not worth your precious time on earth.
It's like with every other business. Undercapitalization is the biggest risk to success, because there is no room for error and trading requires a lot of room for being wrong.

Imho for making a real buck you need at least 50k being able to make it worthwhile (averaging 200-500 EUR per trading day is realistic (-500 to 5.000+ EUR) -> eg 10 trading days a month, 11 months = 110 days p.a. * 250 EUR = 25-30k -> with this kind of money you won't be able to grow your account base, but already live from it modestly.
Do the same math with a 200k account and it starts paying big.

If you manage to build a proper track record of 6 months you might have the confidence to ask people to invest in you (3F or prop shop or whatever).

Never give up until you have to! Don't beat a dead horse.
Routinely assess what options you have going forward
Cheers!

zetsurin 

Is it worth it for me to continue this dream?(long post, non technical related question) For anyone/trader who will take the time to read my experience, I appreciate it as this is the first time I share my personal life on the internet because I am depressed. Should I continue trading and chasing the million dollar dream? I grew up with a trader father, and all I ever heard from his mouth growing up was money, and the markets. He was rich and went broke when I was 8 years old. He was so confident in his skills that he was sure he would someday bring us back to the more comfortable side of life. Naturally, hearing nothing but trading, combined with growing up living in poverty and immense stress for a teenager, I decided then, I would do it for myself because I don't belong in this impoverished neighbourhood. Fast foward from the space of age(25-30) I have made every single sacrifice possible to save money and keep retrying. I lived in the hood, I never bought a car, I finished university but still decided to work only night jobs to be available for the volatile mornings. I havent gotten a girlfriend because I dont have confidence that I wont let a family go through what I went through, even though I am desperately lonely. All that just to maximize my savings in order to keep funding an account. I havent lost much, but I haven't made much gains either so far. At age 31, I have no friends(close friends), no confidence to build a network( I dont even have a car), no girlfriend obviously, when I look in the mirror, I am decent looking, and healthy, and good with women. But why am I in this predicament.. that eats me away. My father is sick, and gave up his confidence in trading. I have my trading method, but my motivation is 20% of what it was 4 years ago. Mainly due to my age, and the desperate desire to have human relationships (Even though I tell myself its sacrifice, it's mostly shame of my living environment). Please share your opinions, should I keep trying until I am 40? I have 30000 ish in savings, buying a house in cash and creating a happy family is a dream I share with many people. However, I don't know how risky it is to devote my next decade to hardcore trading. I might end up in the same situation, or slightly better by 40 if I do pursue this. If I quit, I probably will have to join the debt prison and take out loans like people to start a life. In return, I have someone to hug, but I will never be wealthy. I am confident in my trading skills over the long haul, the P&L will be positive and continue to magnify, but currently, I am 31, and alone, with a sense of regret of the people I sacrificed to do this. Because I haven't succeeded. Please share your thoughts if you were in my shoes, would you keep chasing this million dollar dream. I can't express my gratitude for those of you who spared your time to read. Thanks

Hi first time i post here an answer (I think). I read your story. And immediately laughed and thought my SELF. I am coming from a poor family. No assets no money low paycheck to paycheck. I have no personal life, no friends , no girlfriend and health problems in the past. No financial education. No help no funds. Futures brokers dont even open me an account. I was working minimum wage night job. Trading at the day. I was getting tired my mind was dying. Everyone point me and said what a looser!

But man i stayed to the game, i surrender to it and BOOM i started making money. I went live, i put all of my money on a account. I target it 5% a day and i achieve it. No more no less. Dont go further you cant. But you can always compound your 5% value. Small steps every day.

Now you will ask how i went there?

I devoted years no Christmas new year eve etc, charting analyzing reading everything, even the tape stamps (bid ask lots.).

From all the time i spent and everything i have read almost nothing worth the time.

The Problem why most people dont make money is they have no static plan and money management.

How you or i make money ? Simple, constantly staying in the market. Dont leave the system even after a cluster of failures. Risk managementis is your friend there.
Go with the flow. Market has a mean and diversions but in the end price will go from 2000 to 2500. Doesnt matter how that looks as price action or volume. It will go.
Keep stops at logic places not to small not too big. Cant win 30 pips with 2 pips sl.

Get OUT OF YOUR MIND ALL THE MATERIAL YOU HAVE READ about markets and trading. Dont read others. Dont use their opinions. Even they have the holy grail you may not be able to use it with success. Look your chart. Use stable thing like a moving average , indicator , TPO , Vol Profiles, Pivots, SupRes lines etc. PA and patterns are TERRIBLE. Use things that are static and you compare the current price with them and then you get decision. Things that every time there. No matter volatility price action structure time-frame.
And ofcourse accept that you dont know where the market is going , neither me or banks, or buffet , or other gurus. And even if they know they will not tel you. But what you know is that price will move from a "x" price to "z". THere is your opportunity for following it. Grab it.

Being and growing POOR s**ks a lot. Most people in those forums(no offense). Start with like 10000 or more. They dont have the same problems as we do. They have a safe net. I dont i am close to get to streets. My first account was like 100 euro. So my friend push your self against the bottom and RISE. If you need someone to talk and understand you p.m. me. I dont have a system to share with you, but i may help you to clear the noise.

KEEP ON


P.S. EVERYTHING NEEDS TIME THATS THE CURRENCY OF LIFE. SO DONT EXCHANGE IT FOR A PRICE THATS LOWER THAN ITS VALUE JUST BECAUSE YOU FEAR! (i mean working an average everyday job)

With Love Stoxos !
Today.

zetsurin 

Is it worth it for me to continue this dream?(long post, non technical related question) For anyone/trader who will take the time to read my experience, I appreciate it as this is the first time I share my personal life on the internet because I am depressed. Should I continue trading and chasing the million dollar dream? I grew up with a trader father, and all I ever heard from his mouth growing up was money, and the markets. He was rich and went broke when I was 8 years old. He was so confident in his skills that he was sure he would someday bring us back to the more comfortable side of life. Naturally, hearing nothing but trading, combined with growing up living in poverty and immense stress for a teenager, I decided then, I would do it for myself because I don't belong in this impoverished neighbourhood. Fast foward from the space of age(25-30) I have made every single sacrifice possible to save money and keep retrying. I lived in the hood, I never bought a car, I finished university but still decided to work only night jobs to be available for the volatile mornings. I havent gotten a girlfriend because I dont have confidence that I wont let a family go through what I went through, even though I am desperately lonely. All that just to maximize my savings in order to keep funding an account. I havent lost much, but I haven't made much gains either so far. At age 31, I have no friends(close friends), no confidence to build a network( I dont even have a car), no girlfriend obviously, when I look in the mirror, I am decent looking, and healthy, and good with women. But why am I in this predicament.. that eats me away. My father is sick, and gave up his confidence in trading. I have my trading method, but my motivation is 20% of what it was 4 years ago. Mainly due to my age, and the desperate desire to have human relationships (Even though I tell myself its sacrifice, it's mostly shame of my living environment). Please share your opinions, should I keep trying until I am 40? I have 30000 ish in savings, buying a house in cash and creating a happy family is a dream I share with many people. However, I don't know how risky it is to devote my next decade to hardcore trading. I might end up in the same situation, or slightly better by 40 if I do pursue this. If I quit, I probably will have to join the debt prison and take out loans like people to start a life. In return, I have someone to hug, but I will never be wealthy. I am confident in my trading skills over the long haul, the P&L will be positive and continue to magnify, but currently, I am 31, and alone, with a sense of regret of the people I sacrificed to do this. Because I haven't succeeded. Please share your thoughts if you were in my shoes, would you keep chasing this million dollar dream. I can't express my gratitude for those of you who spared your time to read. Thanks

Hi, after reading your post I thought I could give you some politically correct answers etc.... but I think it is more helpful if I give you very direct advice on how I would get out of this situation. I was in a situation similar to your years ago, for other reasons. I have always been a lonely person, with little friends and I dedicated my whole life to study. So I ended up without a social life and with very little life experience.

1) First things first: social life, dealing with people and dealing with girls are not uncorrelated to trading. They are part of being smart. This is the most important thing you must understand. When I was 18 yo I was a brilliant student but there was a girl who was much more brilliant than me...the reason is that she was getting laid very often whereas I was still virgin. Having intimate experiences will girls will boast your intelligence by a factor of 10.... and it will solve 90% of your psychological problems. Also it is important to build emotional security.
So you must always have girls in your life, they bring joy and happiness and a lot of understanding about psychology. Also if you are good looking you can date girls that can give you insights on how the world works. Maybe you can date an older lady and she can find a well paid job for you.

2) forget trading for a while, let's say 6 months but better for 2 years, in this time enjoy your new job, enjoy your new girlfriend(s), go out enjoy life....go to restaurants and eat nice food and wine. Enjoy the fullness of life, forget trading. Forget it!! Live life to its full extent, and go to a psychologist because maybe you just want to trade to emulate your father.

3) If you feel that trading can bring more joy to your life... open an account with 3000 USD and trade the micros.... focus on Risk Reward and try to make 60 USD per day. This is after taxes 1000 USD per month more or less. If you can do that, you know that in East Europe or Portugal or south America, you could be a full time trader.

4) Keep your job and make 100 USd per month.... once you can make 3000 per month you are ready to...to still keep your job and trade in your spare time.

The goal of life is to be happy not to trade.

SBtrader82 

1) First things first: social life, dealing with people and dealing with girls are not uncorrelated to trading. They are part of being smart. This is the most important thing you must understand. When I was 18 yo I was a brilliant student but there was a girl who was much more brilliant than me...the reason is that she was getting laid very often whereas I was still virgin. Having intimate experiences will girls will boast your intelligence by a factor of 10.... and it will solve 90% of your psychological problems. Also it is important to build emotional security. So you must always have girls in your life, they bring joy and happiness and a lot of understanding about psychology. Also if you are good looking you can date girls that can give you insights on how the world works. Maybe you can date an older lady and she can find a well paid job for you. The goal of life is to be happy not to trade.

That's really a good one, I should have followed that plan 40 years ago!

But I have to say that I really had my time....and now that I'm very happy with my wife who really understands ALL my trading demons and current issues and gives me the appropriate support when I need it....

From my point of view and in regards to my experience(s), I can fully subscribe to your points.