lightsun47 

Sorry to chime in randomly, but I have seen webinars of Bookmap developers getting stopped out themselves using their own Bookmap. Of course there might be an edge in Bookmap, but what will people (like me who are 'prospective customers') think of them if they themselves get stopped out during a live webinar? Sent using the NexusFi mobile app

lol, Bookmap is a great tool if you know how to use it, but it isn't the holy grail and of course there will be losing trades as well, but I've never seen someone who said every trade is a winner

I was waiting for someone to say these EXACT words. Here you go for my response as to why I wrote what I wrote there:

The way someone said some posts above that charts are not important, ONLY Bookmap shows the real, live picture, blah blah blah, then why do you get stopped out, IF YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO LOOK AT MARKET INSIDE OUT, AS IT IS?

If you and only you can see EVERYTHING as it is happening this very second, why there are losers? Why?

Why can't you go with the market pushers and have a nice ride stopping us out?

Reality is, charts DO matter, because previous prices matter. Not everything can be just live as it looks like and can be ridden on a bandwagon easily.

If the tool is really, insanely, IMPECCABLY perfect, then don't you think the market pushers also know about this and what to do counter act whoever is using this? Are they here to give you free money and show you what they're doing everyday?

tr8er 

lol, Bookmap is a great tool if you know how to use it, but it isn't the holy grail and of course there will be losing trades as well, but I've never seen someone who said every trade is a winner

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lightsun47 

I was waiting for someone to say these EXACT words. Here you go for my response as to why I wrote what I wrote there: The way someone said some posts above that charts are not important, ONLY Bookmap shows the real, live picture, blah blah blah, then why do you get stopped out, IF YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO LOOK AT MARKET INSIDE OUT, AS IT IS? If you and only you can see EVERYTHING as it is happening this very second, why there are losers? Why? Why can't you go with the market pushers and have a nice ride stopping us out? Reality is, charts DO matter, because previous prices matter. Not everything can be just live as it looks like and can be ridden on a bandwagon easily. If the tool is really, insanely, IMPECCABLY perfect, then don't you think the market pushers also know about this and what to do counter act whoever is using this? Are they here to give you free money and show you what they're doing everyday? Sent using the NexusFi mobile app

No one has ever said that Bookmap is "impeccably perfect". If that was your takeaway, then you're not seeing the big picture. It's a tool, not a crystal ball. Either you like what the tool does, or you don't.

I think Scott is taking a lot of hits in this thread from people misinterpreting what he said. A tool is like riding a bicycle - you can't comment on riding a bike until you've actually done it. The same goes for Bookmap. If you don't try to understand what the tool is doing, then commenting on it is rather meaningless. Whether you use charts or not is irrelevant. Killing the messenger without understanding the message is ignorant.

^ Try explaining all that to that dshahan87 guy.

The way he has marketed Bookmap here is like no tomorrow.

Of course I know it's a tool - but the way he was portraying it in a such a way that WHATEVER other tools you're using it, they're completely useless. Only and only Bookmap is THE KING. And if you're not using it, you're doomed.

I have to admire his confidence though in his sales pitch - for a moment even I thought he is a floor trader.

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dsheehan87 

I know this is old… But some of the things posted here are flat out wring re: icebergs. People need to know that icebergs are usually always right (you just don’t understand why). You don’t have to agree, but then you’d be wrong. 1) Icebergs are indeed usually the smart money. This is a fact. And they are usually always right. How? Because you don’t know what they are doing - but we have learned to guess what they are doing by knowing the game. Because it is a game. It’s not random. Those using icebergs are right because they make themselves right. Do you think that they simply absorb and then sit? Lol. No. They blast orders in their direction and pull their phony bids and offers driving the dumb money to jump onboard. And this is where you need to enter - with the iceberg - at its price(s) hopefully. But then guess what? They need to exit. And they don’t use market orders (they are for suckers), and they don’t want to loose ticks (who does), so they execute another iceberg - and this is here you fade the iceberg - if there’s some other player looking to drive the market still higher (or lower) - because their iceberg is an exit. They key is knowing when to trade with it or against it, or to not trade at all. They aren’t market makers lol. Not a chance. When they are losing, guess what they do? They’ll dump everything plus double their last iceberg into the market, and profit. They don’t lose lol. This is a game. I know many people friends of mine from the merc, these guys knew nothing of fancy things like charts and icebergs - they saw the icebergs in person. They indeed traded WITH the paper. I do too, when paper is initiating a position, I’m with the paper. If it is a loser, I’m out (and they, like I said, with blast the market and win - ask Baldwin how that works). 2) It’s easy to spot an iceberg. This is false. Believe me, sometimes it’s not an iceberg but smaller traders absorbing. Generally it’s only when you see ticking in the direction of the iceberg, pulling the orders, letting it go bid/offer, then taking then out, that it’s a true iceberg i’d want to trade with. Bookmap allows me now to confirm this (honestly that’s all I’m using bookmap for at this point because I’m a ladder trader). Again, what you think is an iceberg isn’t always an ice berg. That is a fact. Bookmap though, for me, helps me determine that for sure now. 3) All markets aren’t the same. I don’t touch the S&P. I did, and it was disaster lol. Starts off well usually lol. My friends were responsible for most of the volume in the S&P pit, and they made their many millions not looking at charts and nonsense. They traded the edge. The edge is useless in the minis. Useless. Unless you are Goldman’s HFT maybe, but they don’t always win. This guy was (and still is) trying to show you how to approach these markets. Bookmap looks to be a big help to identify when to get in on a move, icebergs, stops, absorption, etc. There are markets you can still trade the edge, but you need to be fast and trade with the guys who control the market. The guys who decide direction. 4) Bookmap and MBO is amazing. Jigsaw is amazing. For a retail trader. Without both of them, it would be a lot tougher. Without them I’d have many losing days instead of a few a month. Losing isn’t a good thing. TT is amazing for crushing the hopes and dreams of retail traders, for paper and big players. Amazing. Sent using the NexusFi mobile app

So I'm coming to this discussion a bit late and if you're still around, could you explain what you mean in point 1)?

From what I understand you mean, "they blast orders in their direction " so if the smart money want to get short they're not actually buying, but they are underpinning the price with large sitting buy orders just below the price (or near it) as it rises. This means the dumb money gets on board into the longs, and then the smart money pulls their unfulfilled buy orders and initiates an iceberg routine. They willingly absorb the dumb longs and it is at this point that we should actually be looking to go short. Trade with the iceberg and sell.
In order to exit you then wait for a second iceberg to form ("fade the iceberg", is that correct?

And if the initial iceberg position doesn't work for then (going short) then they will liquidate their short positions and instantly flip to long and in double the size of their initial short iceberg position.

And in point 2), in order to ascertain if it's a real iceberg then you want to see price go in the direction of the iceberg. Orders get pulled (the iceberg sell orders in this example?) which allows prices to rise and then the sell iceberg is reinstated which is in order to get as many contracts short as possible. And then these longs are also taken out.

I hope that makes sense and many thanks to anyone (or dsheehan) who can tell me if I have this the right way round!