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Gambling (with life)


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Gambling (with life)

  #41 (permalink)
 lancelottrader 
west palm beach florida usa
Market Wizard
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: ninja trader
Broker: Optimus Futures/ Rithmic
Trading: NQ
Posts: 1,112 since Oct 2011
Thanks Given: 1,113
Thanks Received: 5,386

I first started trading after a friend took me to a Forex seminar sponsored by a company called Wizetrade. The product was called Forex made easy. It basically eschewed conventional trading procedures like Candle charts or price action. Instead you entered on a combination of green or red lights and crosses of green and red lines. Did I mention the software cost close to $4000.00? For reasons I still can hardly comprehend, I bought the software and embarked on a "life ruining" journey.
Was I a Gambler? I didn't think so at the time. I never had any interest in gambling in my entire life. Even the couple of times I went to Las Vegas, I never bothered gambling. I always thought it was silly. Nor would I say I had an addictive personality. I was able to drink alcohol moderately and do a few other things without ever having problems. I had always considered myself to be fairly well disciplined as well. I worked out, ate extremely healthy and never missed any obligations. But trading brought out a side to me that I had no idea existed.

When I began, I was in very good financial shape. I had plenty of money in Savings and I owned a nice home free and clear. I had done well investing in Real Estate, but since this was around 2009 and the market had crashed..I got out of Real Estate. I SIM traded for a few months and did great, even with the silly Forex Made Easy program. I found that I was good when there was extreme volatility in the currency pairs. I was totally deluded. I opened up a $50,000.00 account and started trading a sizable number of lots. Looking back, the amount of delusion and stupidity I had almost defies belief. I started having some serious losing days..$5000.00 and up. I found I was totally unable to stop trading when I was down. No max daily loss limit could be adhered to. My heart would pound and my palms would sweat as I would try to double or triple my lot size in order to recoup my losses.

I started keeping a journal and when I'd read what I did, it was like I was seeing a whole different person. I blew out at least three $50,000.00 accounts. My girlfriend begged me to quit. I couldn't. I felt, I had put too much time and money in to give up. I tried automated trading and lost lots of money on that. I finally stopped trading for a few months...

Then I decided to try Futures. That was several years ago. I took many losses at that too, but now I was trading smaller amounts. But those small accounts were also blown out. Why I continued is a total mystery. I am doing fairly well now, but it will be a long time before I ever recoup what I lost. Honestly, all the time, money and anguish this has caused me is probably not worth whatever small success I have now. If I could go back in time, I would never get involved in this. Let's face it...like I wrote a while back..finding actual consistently profitable Retail traders is about as easy as finding Sasquatch.

Failure is not an option
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  #42 (permalink)
 
Oriole's Avatar
 Oriole 
Naples FLA
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Ninja Trader 8
Broker: NinjaTrader
Trading: Currency Futures, RTY, ES, NQ
Posts: 97 since Dec 2019
Thanks Given: 202
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Medboy View Post
I can so relate to this thread. I'm one of the little hopeful guys trying to figure trading out. I've read Al Brooks (I respect him a lot), watched Mack's Youtube's for years and I keep searching for the right method for me. I got laid off 6 months ago so I have had a lot screen time lately. But the unemployed doesn't need to give up money and I have. Not given up the farm, but I have paid some trading "tuition" to learn what does not work. I will probably just have to get a real job again. Been applying. I'm not sure how anyone really learns to daytrade unless already financially free, unless you work at night, but that won't work for me. And you can't cheat on your employer and trade during work hours. Not ethical.

And then there are all the emails I get from Ninjacators promising me they have discovered the next miracle solution for trading and getting rich. Really? I'm watching Market Depth Orderflow today and see that prices knife through "support" and "resistance" at will. But I can be a sucker for these things. True confession. Anyone making money with the Volume Spread Scalper they pushed a few weeks ago? I bought it. Made a few bucks with micro contracts, but only because I scaled in to trades. A bit scared to really trust it. Just one of many ideas I've tried.

I've even been in Al's trading room, which is great education, but most of the time the market is in a "limit order market phase" and he can't call those trades out complete with entry, stop, and exit, and still run the trading room. He does give good advice and things to consider, but no short cuts to profits. Each person must do their own hunting.

My problem is my time is running out. I wanted to prove I could trade by making some money so I wouldn't need to get another job. That is not a good recipe for starting out.

Ok I vented pretty well for my first post. Sorry, but this thread really hit home for me.

Good stuff. I laughed at the NINJACATORS reference because I want to buy a lot of their stuff but have not yet. Wow do they email blast that S*** outta you. All day long. Like that ORDER FLOW gimmick that expires TODAY for only $197. I want it.

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  #43 (permalink)
SunTrader
Boca Raton, FL
 
Posts: 260 since Nov 2018
Thanks Given: 81
Thanks Received: 182



lancelottrader View Post
I first started trading after a friend took me to a Forex seminar sponsored by a company called Wizetrade. The product was called Forex made easy. It basically eschewed conventional trading procedures like Candle charts or price action. Instead you entered on a combination of green or red lights and crosses of green and red lines. Did I mention the software cost close to $4000.00? For reasons I still can hardly comprehend, I bought the software and embarked on a "life ruining" journey.
Was I a Gambler? I didn't think so at the time. I never had any interest in gambling in my entire life. Even the couple of times I went to Las Vegas, I never bothered gambling. I always thought it was silly. Nor would I say I had an addictive personality. I was able to drink alcohol moderately and do a few other things without ever having problems. I had always considered myself to be fairly well disciplined as well. I worked out, ate extremely healthy and never missed any obligations. But trading brought out a side to me that I had no idea existed.

When I began, I was in very good financial shape. I had plenty of money in Savings and I owned a nice home free and clear. I had done well investing in Real Estate, but since this was around 2009 and the market had crashed..I got out of Real Estate. I SIM traded for a few months and did great, even with the silly Forex Made Easy program. I found that I was good when there was extreme volatility in the currency pairs. I was totally deluded. I opened up a $50,000.00 account and started trading a sizable number of lots. Looking back, the amount of delusion and stupidity I had almost defies belief. I started having some serious losing days..$5000.00 and up. I found I was totally unable to stop trading when I was down. No max daily loss limit could be adhered to. My heart would pound and my palms would sweat as I would try to double or triple my lot size in order to recoup my losses.

I started keeping a journal and when I'd read what I did, it was like I was seeing a whole different person. I blew out at least three $50,000.00 accounts. My girlfriend begged me to quit. I couldn't. I felt, I had put too much time and money in to give up. I tried automated trading and lost lots of money on that. I finally stopped trading for a few months...

Then I decided to try Futures. That was several years ago. I took many losses at that too, but now I was trading smaller amounts. But those small accounts were also blown out. Why I continued is a total mystery. I am doing fairly well now, but it will be a long time before I ever recoup what I lost. Honestly, all the time, money and anguish this has caused me is probably not worth whatever small success I have now. If I could go back in time, I would never get involved in this. Let's face it...like I wrote a while back..finding actual consistently profitable Retail traders is about as easy as finding Sasquatch.

You may or may not have now realized by now NOT to try to make back the money lost.

Obviously the goal for a struggling trader should always be to make it to profitability long term. And stay there.

But what happened in the past is in the past.

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  #44 (permalink)
 smtlaissezfaire 
Oakland, CA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Phone
Trading: US Treasuries Futures
Posts: 83 since Jun 2018
Thanks Given: 95
Thanks Received: 120


lancelottrader View Post
I first started trading after a friend took me to a Forex seminar sponsored by a company called Wizetrade. The product was called Forex made easy. It basically eschewed conventional trading procedures like Candle charts or price action. Instead you entered on a combination of green or red lights and crosses of green and red lines. Did I mention the software cost close to $4000.00? For reasons I still can hardly comprehend, I bought the software and embarked on a "life ruining" journey.
Was I a Gambler? I didn't think so at the time. I never had any interest in gambling in my entire life. Even the couple of times I went to Las Vegas, I never bothered gambling. I always thought it was silly. Nor would I say I had an addictive personality. I was able to drink alcohol moderately and do a few other things without ever having problems. I had always considered myself to be fairly well disciplined as well. I worked out, ate extremely healthy and never missed any obligations. But trading brought out a side to me that I had no idea existed.

When I began, I was in very good financial shape. I had plenty of money in Savings and I owned a nice home free and clear. I had done well investing in Real Estate, but since this was around 2009 and the market had crashed..I got out of Real Estate. I SIM traded for a few months and did great, even with the silly Forex Made Easy program. I found that I was good when there was extreme volatility in the currency pairs. I was totally deluded. I opened up a $50,000.00 account and started trading a sizable number of lots. Looking back, the amount of delusion and stupidity I had almost defies belief. I started having some serious losing days..$5000.00 and up. I found I was totally unable to stop trading when I was down. No max daily loss limit could be adhered to. My heart would pound and my palms would sweat as I would try to double or triple my lot size in order to recoup my losses.

I started keeping a journal and when I'd read what I did, it was like I was seeing a whole different person. I blew out at least three $50,000.00 accounts. My girlfriend begged me to quit. I couldn't. I felt, I had put too much time and money in to give up. I tried automated trading and lost lots of money on that. I finally stopped trading for a few months...

Then I decided to try Futures. That was several years ago. I took many losses at that too, but now I was trading smaller amounts. But those small accounts were also blown out. Why I continued is a total mystery. I am doing fairly well now, but it will be a long time before I ever recoup what I lost. Honestly, all the time, money and anguish this has caused me is probably not worth whatever small success I have now. If I could go back in time, I would never get involved in this. Let's face it...like I wrote a while back..finding actual consistently profitable Retail traders is about as easy as finding Sasquatch.

Why did you go for options + futures?

It seems to me that most beginners should start with unlevered / retail instruments like stock. Curious what attracted you to futures + options.

(FYI I just re-read "how i trade for a living" by gary smith - highly recommended and zero bs. one thing that I've been picking up from several investors across the spectrum is how they hate leverage.)

I keep on repeating to myself "there is no skill in clicking the button" - aka it takes no more wisdom to trade than not to trade. Also, while developing, it makes zero sense to trade in ES or SPX/ES options - it makes much more sense to trade SPY or something less levered (now - maybe /MES). AKA be product indifferent and size according to your account size.

It takes no different skill to use order entry "1" vs. order entry "10" (except psychologically).

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  #45 (permalink)
 
Adolpho911's Avatar
 Adolpho911 
Amsterdam + Netherland
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: EdgeProX!!
Broker: Edgeclear and Rithmic. (Nordnet 1 year more for Norwegian stocks)
Trading: ES, NQ, GC, CL (Maybe Dax if I bother to get euro data, probably dont need more.) futures only
Posts: 21 since Jan 2020
Thanks Given: 108
Thanks Received: 27

I have not read all of this. I just want to comment on alot of post said ;"your not gambling, you are trading. "
I will point out that all trading including risk management and targets are built on game theory. You ARE gambling. You just trying to be the casino that have the little edge. You will lose alot of times, depending on your approach. The trick is to have checked your edge if it gives you more winnings than you loose. (avg%winxavg win - avg%lossxavg loss gives you your expected win pr every trade from now. If you win your next trade tho is a coin flip. And I really don't know any better way to describe how to gamble than a coin toss!

Adolpho911
"Faith does not always let you fix the tuition fee; she delivers the educational wallop and sets her own bill" Jesse Livermore
"I am not curious when I know everything" Adolpho911
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  #46 (permalink)
 lancelottrader 
west palm beach florida usa
Market Wizard
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: ninja trader
Broker: Optimus Futures/ Rithmic
Trading: NQ
Posts: 1,112 since Oct 2011
Thanks Given: 1,113
Thanks Received: 5,386


smtlaissezfaire View Post
Why did you go for options + futures?

It seems to me that most beginners should start with unlevered / retail instruments like stock. Curious what attracted you to futures + options.

(FYI I just re-read "how i trade for a living" by gary smith - highly recommended and zero bs. one thing that I've been picking up from several investors across the spectrum is how they hate leverage.)

I keep on repeating to myself "there is no skill in clicking the button" - aka it takes no more wisdom to trade than not to trade. Also, while developing, it makes zero sense to trade in ES or SPX/ES options - it makes much more sense to trade SPY or something less levered (now - maybe /MES). AKA be product indifferent and size according to your account size.

It takes no different skill to use order entry "1" vs. order entry "10" (except psychologically).

I never said options..I said I started with Forex and went to Futures.

Failure is not an option
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  #47 (permalink)
SunTrader
Boca Raton, FL
 
Posts: 260 since Nov 2018
Thanks Given: 81
Thanks Received: 182

It is a great misnomer that stocks are somehow "safer" than futures.

IMO having traded them both for many years it is exactly the opposite.

At least in so far as considering either "safer".

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  #48 (permalink)
 smtlaissezfaire 
Oakland, CA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Phone
Trading: US Treasuries Futures
Posts: 83 since Jun 2018
Thanks Given: 95
Thanks Received: 120

Interesting. How do you figure that?

For instance, based on notional value + being product indifferent: 2 ATM SPX options = 1 ES future = 10 SPY options = 1000 SPY shares.

So (and this is all assuming you're trading equity indexes + not spreading to reduce risk + before MES was introduced) - how could trading 1 ES be less risky than trading 1 share of SPY?

Also, if you do the math, you'll see you really need a non-trivial account to trade 1000 SPY at brokerages where you can buy an ES contract intraday for < $500 margins.

But yes - I think all things are risky if you don't know what you are doing. Walking down the street can be risky, as can driving an automobile at 120mph. But clearly (aside from certain situations) you'll be more alert when doing one over the other.

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  #49 (permalink)
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 Big Mike 
Manta, Ecuador
Site Administrator
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Swing Trader
 
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Platform: Custom solution
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Trading: Stocks & Futures
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What is your response to this situation?

Tom1978 View Post
My 14 year old son is always on his phone.
My wife regularly confronts him with his behavior.

Nowadays he says: but dad is always looking at his charts. He is doing the same...

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  #50 (permalink)
SunTrader
Boca Raton, FL
 
Posts: 260 since Nov 2018
Thanks Given: 81
Thanks Received: 182



smtlaissezfaire View Post
Interesting. How do you figure that?

For instance, based on notional value + being product indifferent: 2 ATM SPX options = 1 ES future = 10 SPY options = 1000 SPY shares.

So (and this is all assuming you're trading equity indexes + not spreading to reduce risk + before MES was introduced) - how could trading 1 ES be less risky than trading 1 share of SPY?

Also, if you do the math, you'll see you really need a non-trivial account to trade 1000 SPY at brokerages where you can buy an ES contract intraday for < $500 margins.

But yes - I think all things are risky if you don't know what you are doing. Walking down the street can be risky, as can driving an automobile at 120mph. But clearly (aside from certain situations) you'll be more alert when doing one over the other.

Your words:

2 ATM SPX options = 1 ES future = 10 SPY options = 1000 SPY shares.

and

how could trading 1 ES be less risky than trading 1 share of SPY?

1 share? Typo I guess?

Anyway I said stocks, not ETF equivalent.

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