I was in England last weekend and based upon several conversations I t seems to me the Brexit vote is pretty divided on age. The old are pro-Brexit and the young anti-exit.

"European history may be about to go into reverse.

If Britain votes to leave the European Union, it will likely start a process of fragmentation of the political and security structures on which the post-World War Two and post-Cold War European order was built.

Even if the British step back from the brink on Thursday, the bruising legacy of the debate, the growing trend of national referendums on EU issues and the backlash against globalization and internationalized elites on both sides of the Atlantic will not fade away any time soon. "




Full article on Reuters

xplorer 

"European history may be about to go into reverse. If Britain votes to leave the European Union, it will likely start a process of fragmentation of the political and security structures on which the post-World War Two and post-Cold War European order was built. Even if the British step back from the brink on Thursday, the bruising legacy of the debate, the growing trend of national referendums on EU issues and the backlash against globalization and internationalized elites on both sides of the Atlantic will not fade away any time soon. " Full article on Reuters

Thanks for the article.

It seems clear to me as a people on this rotating orbiting smallish planet we are better, stronger and will be ultimately wiser when we come together and the opposite divided. I can perceive mankind currently in its adolescent period (era) where rebellion, angst and contempt for authority are its defining characteristics. The cusps of maturity is dawning but the time scale for these types of milestones for humanity are massive viewed from a historical perspective.

Ron

Blash 

Thanks for the article. It seems clear to me as a people on this rotating orbiting smallish planet we are better, stronger and will be ultimately wiser when we come together and the opposite divided. I can perceive mankind currently in its adolescent period (era) where rebellion, angst and contempt for authority are its defining characteristics. The cusps of maturity is dawning but the time scale for these types of milestones for humanity are massive viewed from a historical perspective. Ron

I agree in general with the concept together = stronger.

Whether this is the case with the current referendum or not, remains to be seen.

Either way I think you're right: history will tell, in due course, whether whatever choice won made things better or worse...

Last week the Leave campaign really seemed to be gaining ground and have the remain team in a spin, especially Labour ministers with Corbyn's luke warm enthusiasm for the EU.
I think the murder of Jo Cox has changed things dramatically though. There are those who are very firmly decided one way or another but an awful lot of people still haven't decided. When the man charged with the MP's murder stands up in court and gives his name as "death to traitors, freedom for Britain", I think a lot of 'normal' people will pause and wonder whether those are the sort of people they want to be associated with (despite the suspect Thomas Mair having a history of mental illness). Then Nigel Farage, of the UK Independence Party, who last week was looking respectable and leaderly while being courted by the media and appearing in debate programmes with the Prime Minister; suddenly unveils a new anti-immigration poster and is loudly denounced by both sides as showing his true racist colours again. (A bit like during the last election campaign when he was doing his 'personable one of the people' thing with genuine concerns, but suddenly started talking about foreign Aids sufferers coming to our country just to try and save their lives with our free health care).
Last week the rhetoric was being ramped up so much with both sides practically claiming armaggeddon if we leave or stay, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer in effect threatening to punish us with tax cuts, I can't imagine that I was alone in almost thinking that I would vote to leave just to say "F**k U" to the government and to see what would actually happen.
Now though with everybody taking a few calm breaths and the campaign carrying on more soberly I think we will be okay. Such a tragedy that somebody had to die though. RIP Jo Cox.

matthew28 

Last week the Leave campaign really seemed to be gaining ground and have the remain team in a spin [...] RIP Jo Cox.

I know what you are saying about perceptions changing because of a deranged person, and unfortunately it's probably going to be the case.

I say 'unfortunately' because that argument is an emotional one, and people do tend to decide with emotion, rather than with logic and facts.

I too have been nauseated with the amount of media pressure both camps have subjected us to. Osborne now looks to me just like a buffoon. The only thing left for him to say is something like "leaving the EU increases the risk of cancer".

Having said that, the fundamental problem remains, as I said before, that people do not have sufficient, objective facts to be able to make an informed decision on this issue.

It is exactly because both sides have distorted facts and spreaded BS all around, that I think most people are confused and don't really know what to do. Crying wolf has done way more harm than good.

When I opened this thread I was hoping people would chip in armed with hard data from an economical point of view, which would have helped understand both sides of the coin better. But I accept it's been a difficult task, what with the amount of misinformation going around.

In the end whatever happens happens. I am still convinced most people will opt for the status-quo though.

I assume the establishment elites will threaten to shoot voters dogs and boil their cats,
if they don't vote against brexit.

as the latest Speccie reports - the elites are already doing something close to that:

Quoting 

David Cameron, the Prime Minister, threatened pensioners who voted in the referendum for Britain to leave the EU: ‘If we leave, the pensioner benefits would be under threat, and the “triple lock” could no longer be guaranteed.’ He also said he might take away their ‘free bus passes and TV licences’, even though the latter are paid for by the BBC. George Osborne, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, said he would put up taxes if there was a vote to leave the EU, but 57 Tory MPs said they would vote against what they called a ‘punishment budget’.

xplorer 

Having said that, the fundamental problem remains, as I said before, that people do not have sufficient, objective facts to be able to make an informed decision on this issue.

Agreed. In the end it will just come down to how one personally feels about the key issues of the economy or immigration.

Interesting article from The Guardian.

"The EU has given us cheap mobile phone roaming charges, cheaper flights and proper compensation when things go wrong. It has helped clean up the environment, improving our rivers and beaches. It has given us unprecedented freedom to travel visa-free across the continent. And I’m voting out.

Why? I know a painter/decorator who has not been able to raise his wages for 15 years. There’s always someone else, he says, willing to work for less. A driver who arrived from Turkey 18 years ago, who says the bus companies used to pay more than £12 an hour, but can now pay £10 or less because they have so many takers (and yes, the irony is noted). A care-home cleaner in a rundown seaside town who reckons her hopes of ever getting more than the minimum wage are zero. Each blames an influx of workers from the EU. Each of them are voting out. Tell them the EU protects workers’ rights and they just laugh."

Well my (postal) vote is to remain, I see the argument about wages however if people have more money, prices are higher.

I recall very well the blessed relief everyone had when they could get an affordable Polish plumber. It was like inviting organised crime to your home (the same in Rep of Ireland) via the yellow pages before. Revenge pricing will arise fairly fast.

One only has to look here to see a wee problem? As resources become more stretched I feel organisation needs to improve not fragment. But I also feel as traffic congestion increases cars should be made to drive faster not slower so I may have a screw loose.

Overall it seems like the plot of the Angry Birds movie. Pigs Vs Angry Birds. Ok that I keep expecting to see Nigel Farage's tongue lick his eyeball does not help me listen to his lizard people argument. Similarly George Osbourne is a revolting boor as with many others.

My two reasons:
a. I recall my friends from Croatia (years after) in London describing a state of absolute shock as their middle class lives went from in hindsight, relative paradise in Yugoslavia, to the nightmare of active war seemingly overnight and out of the blue. They never believed it could possibly happen and so quickly. The same time I had to go to Congo/Rwanda to rescue my Tutsi friends in 1994 who were similarly feeling very WTF?. A few weeks I will never forget and was fortunate to survive (thanks Bill, but still anyone but Trump).

b. The EU has pigs in a trough of gravy for sure but fueled by greater negotiating powers many greedy sods in England will get bigger and fatter anyway so the moral indignation won't change. China has big pigs, Russia has big pigs, the USA has really big pigs and so does the EU. I have traveled the world and the EU is (all caps) massively the best place to live of the large global federations regardless of deficiencies.

My moving to Colombia (sort of) was mostly down to a desire for a fresh experience rather than lack of opportunity back home.

Its a complex issue, everyone must vote with their head and heart. That it can get a lot worse may seem a bad argument but devil-you-know is a rational response. I have some faith in the EU recognizing it has to dial back some of the nonsense.