dimkdimk 

... 3. Third, is not that true that whole educational system ( I mean Universities, etc. ) is the same big scum? Why teachers go to teach ? Yes, right, if they can't make money using their knowledge then they go teach :-) I saw a lot of talanted people teaching in University. Why they teach ? Go work and make money in business, economy, mathematics instead of brain washing young fellows. :-) ...

This is not true, some people (I'm not talking for trading teachers, as I don't know any of them) are teaching because they like teaching, that's it.
And it may sounds odd, but some very talented people are not interesting at all in making money, really not at all !!!

sam028 

This is not true, some people (I'm not talking for trading teachers, as I don't know any of them) are teaching because they like teaching, that's it. And it may sounds odd, but some very talented people are not interesting at all in making money, really not at all !!!

Exactly ! That is why I always try to explain to guys that not everything is scum in market trading education.

dimkdimk 

Exactly ! That is why I always try to explain to guys that not everything is scum in market trading education.

Maybe yes, but the ratio (scum/good people who likes teaching) is much much higher in trading than in music or math !!!
So not always scum, but a very large majority.

This was already posted once, but I'll share it again:
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/user/theRSAorg[/yt]

Studies show that once personal monetary benchmarks have been achieved, money no longer becomes a significant driving force behind our motives. I'd say I have to agree. I reached the limits of my aspirations in my career years ago & began looking for other things to achieve fulfillment. I began teaching & began my journey learning to trade for a living. You'd be surprised how many teachers do not fall into the category of "Those that can't do , teach"; but instead they are in the "Been there... Done that" group.

dimkdimk 

While 90% you are right, still 10% you are wrong. 1. Why Gurus are teaching ? Well, it might be just a matter of risk preference. If they become tired of everyday risk exposure and just want calm working day for example. However, young and energetic traders would prefer trade every swing, every move. 2. Second, you mentioned some chat rooms and books. Well isn't that a same scum ? I have read a lot of books where authors have nothing to say, basically. 3. Third, is not that true that whole educational system ( I mean Universities, etc. ) is the same big scum? Why teachers go to teach ? Yes, right, if they can't make money using their knowledge then they go teach :-) I saw a lot of talanted people teaching in University. Why they teach ? Go work and make money in business, economy, mathematics instead of brain washing young fellows. :-) 4. Afterall, what is this forum about ? Why you guys are here ? Go trade, make money for a living, don't teach us professionals how to trade :-) Don't waste money on post, lets trade. No offense mate. There is everywhere a place for scum and a place for real value. It is on us to decide. That is why I really stand for Rating agencies. In this case we ( this forum ) is a rating agency. And we say that the product is good or not. That is how open market works.

dimkdimk,

Everything is debatable, and I'm sure we could go back and forth until the cows come home. I will answer your reply and will leave it alone at that.

1. Everyone gets burned out in every occupation and business. And we all have our own goals and levels of acchievements and of course level of contentment. For me and I'm 99% sure that the overall goal for most traders is to build an equity curve to the level that would allow us to take several vacations a year or only trade 5 to 20 hours a week. And to the next level where you hire an CTA or Managed Futures account and have someone else do all the trading for them. Thus providing a passive income and at the same time having the freedom to live the life of their dreams. So, I really don't concur with your theory on this.

2. Again, thats what these forums are all about. Traders exchanging information and ideas on good and bad books, videos and other usefull information. As far as scum in the forums, they rise to the surface and get weeded out.

3. I believe you're drawing straws with this reply. What are you saying that our education system is about scum teachers brain washing young adults? Do you have a higher education? No offense, but it doesn't sound like you do with this reply. Are there bad teachers in the educational system? Of course there are, again they get weeded out and float to the top and move on. Seen it here in my local educational system in New York State.

4. I can't speak for others, but I'm in forums for several good reasons. A) Trading is a lonley business and the forums help with interaction with others that have the same interest. Why are you here???? B) I learn from others as well as trying to help others which is the concept of the forum. Which I think Big Mike would agree. Ask Big Mike why he's here. C) Not sure about you, but it doesn't cost me money to post in here or any other forum.

Moderator Notice Thanks for keeping this civil itrade4income. BigMike's has the reputation as a place where the free expression of ideas are best exchanged with respect for each other. -- ZTR

In closing, the more I was typing this reply the more feeling I got that you're one of the Guru's preying on new traders. It's obvious that you are from some educational system. Like I said earlier they rise to the surface and get washed away. Good Luck Mate and no offense, just calling it as I see it. If the shoe fits.

Cheers
Itradeincome

itrade4income,
Amazing how you see into and past the page and can know the persons' (dimkdimk's) motives and who they are from their posts on one topic.
"Good luck and no offense" ??

Ron Schnee 

itrade4income, Amazing how you see into and past the page and can know the persons' (dimkdimk's) motives and who they are from their posts on one topic. "Good luck and no offense" ??

The point of my comment above was to keep this civil. These posts are now "off-topic" as they only have to do with motives of a community member, not training.

I will leave them as a reminder that this is a path we discourage, unless another mod or higher want to delete them.

Sasha 

T 2. There are fake guru's and a lot of them who are exploiting "strong emphasis on psychology and money management coupled with a strong de-empahsis of the importance of methodology" demand. Not to insult anyones feelings, but I can name a few that were highly regarded in this thread. To illustrate I'll mention only one such fake guru - L2ST Kam: he would not offer you an easy road to riches but an easy road to learning and conquering the psychological aspects of the trade for example. I couldn't complete his expensive 3 day course, had to quit after 3 hours, exhausted from his constant bragging and thousands of "OK's". Like Van Tharp himself Kam is a proud "NLP (and all other new wave discipline's) certified practitioner" and will try to hypnotize you and cure all of your problems in a very funny and naive sounding way. There are many others as well that will take your money promising what they have no clue how to do. P.S.fiki mentioned a truly good teacher that is not absolutely free anymore, but he is still good though. P.P.S. Where it come to trading methodology, I will concur on MarketDelta free video's and pdf's. These a truly good. The psychological aspects of the business are best covered by Brett N. Steenbarger in my opinion. He is a no BS professional and doesn't do voodoo magic. If you'd like to turn to hypnosis still, do not expect to fall in trance after listening to Van Tharp L2ST etc. It will save you time and money to use a professional here as well, thou on the surface it seems more expensive. But at least you'll get what you are looking for.

I am spending time in Kam's room for the past week. Currently they only do the US AM session, no live Euro session. During the week, they primarily traded ES though he also talked about his DAX trades he took in the Europe session.

In the beginning of the session he talks about the Market Profile and where he feels the market is likely to do business. He then comments on the market price action as he sees it on Market Delta and recommends entry points depending on the price action. While observing the price action, he comments on what he says, and how to manage the trades as they unfold. I find his technical reading of the market quite helpful.

I personally like the Market and Volume Profile based approaches, which I was introduced to via FuturesTrader71. The Discovery Trading Room videos hosted at MarketDelta are also very helpful. However, neither FT71 or the Discovery guys explain the actual setups live for you. That is where the L2ST live webinar based approach is really useful. I have seen a lot of people talking about trading the order flow/price action but very few people describing what exactly they are looking for, and how to validate their hypothesis.

I personally felt, that Kam captures the emotions and fears of what a trader is likely to feel very well. He specifically instructs people on what different emotions you are likely to go through prior to entering the trade, the first few minutes when you have risk on, after reaching your initial profit target and then with the runners. Each phase of the trade requires a different attitude and he continuously adapts his commentary as the trade progresses.

Though I am a big fan of Dr. Brett, I find Kam's demonstration of those ideas live very helpful. Kam understands both the technical aspects of trading and the psychological aspects of trading, and combines both of them live, in the heat of the market. You are unlikely to get the same experience with an outside psychologist.

Perhaps if you are an already profitable trader working in a professional environment, and want to take your game to the next level, an expert psychologist might help. However for most individual traders working in isolation, those expert options are not easily accessible or affordable.

On a technical level, I feel that his style works best for ES/DAX/YM type of products but not that well on CL. I think I can use elements of what he teaches in CL too, but not that well as ES.

On a psychological level, I can relate to many of the issues and problems he is trying to address. Perhaps you already have a very strong trader psychology and do not need help there.

Like cunparis, I also feel that spending at least a month or two in his trading room is going to be truly worth the money spent. He has also opened a blog https://partners.wsj.com/etrade/in-the-trading-zone/ which has tons of free videos etc, which are definitely worth checking out.

--------------------------------------------

On a different note, some other people have questioned why these vendor are selling their services if they are very good traders themselves. Here are some comments based on my personal interaction with the vendors.

-> One person runs an active trading room, also markets a variety of technical indicators and products. He has a fairly successful business selling those products. In his own words, he trades MUCH better, knowing that he DOES not have to make a living from his trading profits but can rely on his secure revenue stream of products.

-> The trading room is also a marketing mechanism for up-selling. A low-cost trading room helps them sell higher value add products. The person I mentioned above has a variety of different products and a lot of people are very happy subscribing to them and profiting from trading those.

->For many traders, being able to communicate and share their thoughts is like a journaling process in itself. It helps enforce discipline and sticking to a trading plan better. They might be gurus, but they are still human and experience the same ups and downs in life as any one else.

aviat72 

I am spending time in Kam's room for the past week. Currently they only do the US AM session, no live Euro session. During the week, they primarily traded ES though he also talked about his DAX trades he took in the Europe session. In the beginning of the session he talks about the Market Profile and where he feels the market is likely to do business. He then comments on the market price action as he sees it on Market Delta and recommends entry points depending on the price action. While observing the price action, he comments on what he says, and how to manage the trades as they unfold. I find his technical reading of the market quite helpful. I personally like the Market and Volume Profile based approaches, which I was introduced to via FuturesTrader71. The Discovery Trading Room videos hosted at MarketDelta are also very helpful. However, neither FT71 or the Discovery guys explain the actual setups live for you. That is where the L2ST live webinar based approach is really useful. I have seen a lot of people talking about trading the order flow/price action but very few people describing what exactly they are looking for, and how to validate their hypothesis. I personally felt, that Kam captures the emotions and fears of what a trader is likely to feel very well. He specifically instructs people on what different emotions you are likely to go through prior to entering the trade, the first few minutes when you have risk on, after reaching your initial profit target and then with the runners. Each phase of the trade requires a different attitude and he continuously adapts his commentary as the trade progresses. Though I am a big fan of Dr. Brett, I find Kam's demonstration of those ideas live very helpful. Kam understands both the technical aspects of trading and the psychological aspects of trading, and combines both of them live, in the heat of the market. You are unlikely to get the same experience with an outside psychologist. Perhaps if you are an already profitable trader working in a professional environment, and want to take your game to the next level, an expert psychologist might help. However for most individual traders working in isolation, those expert options are not easily accessible or affordable. On a technical level, I feel that his style works best for ES/DAX/YM type of products but not that well on CL. I think I can use elements of what he teaches in CL too, but not that well as ES. On a psychological level, I can relate to many of the issues and problems he is trying to address. Perhaps you already have a very strong trader psychology and do not need help there. Like cunparis, I also feel that spending at least a month or two in his trading room is going to be truly worth the money spent. He has also opened a blog L2ST - www.inthetradingzone.com - L2ST - www.inthetradingzone.com which has tons of free videos etc, which are definitely worth checking out. -------------------------------------------- On a different note, some other people have questioned why these vendor are selling their services if they are very good traders themselves. Here are some comments based on my personal interaction with the vendors. -> One person runs an active trading room, also markets a variety of technical indicators and products. He has a fairly successful business selling those products. In his own words, he trades MUCH better, knowing that he DOES not have to make a living from his trading profits but can rely on his secure revenue stream of products. -> The trading room is also a marketing mechanism for up-selling. A low-cost trading room helps them sell higher value add products. The person I mentioned above has a variety of different products and a lot of people are very happy subscribing to them and profiting from trading those. ->For many traders, being able to communicate and share their thoughts is like a journaling process in itself. It helps enforce discipline and sticking to a trading plan better. They might be gurus, but they are still human and experience the same ups and downs in life as any one else.

Hey, I've understood that we are sort of comrades here so felt a duty to warn you about another little thief out to get us. It is up to you to listen to my warning or ignore it. I am sure that you'll come to the same conclusion at the end thou since all that I heard from the poor fellow was pretentious mumbling and million times repeated self-compliments -- the guy is not shy at all.
But again if it works for you -- great! The only suggestion is: before advertising here another NLP black belt professional, why don't you show us your results first? Can you post your profits for us to see? I swear that would be very impressive, to the point that most of us, right after thanking, you will be joining L2ST room next day. Including myself.
How about it? Take another week or 2 trading with that guru and show us what you have achieved.

Sasha 

Hey, I've understood that we are sort of comrades here so felt a duty to warn you about another little thief out to get us. It is up to you to listen to my warning or ignore it. I am sure that you'll come to the same conclusion at the end thou since all that I heard from the poor fellow was pretentious mumbling and million times repeated self-compliments -- the guy is not shy at all. But again if it works for you -- great! The only suggestion is: before advertising here another NLP black belt professional, why don't you show us your results first? Can you post your profits for us to see?

(1) In the week or two I have spent in the room, the guy has been nailing it. Part of the reason is that we have been a range bound market where market profile based responsive actions make great trades. He did recognize the trend day breakout which occurred after the BOJ decision (Oct 5) and warned people not to fade the move.

Here are some videos which summarizes the day's action for the past few weeks. Judge for yourself. You may have to register at the blog to view them.
The List of Videos: L2ST - www.inthetradingzone.com
October 5 The Trend Day Video: L2ST - www.inthetradingzone.com
October 4 Summary: L2ST - www.inthetradingzone.com
September 28 Summary: L2ST - www.inthetradingzone.com



(2) If you read Dr. Brett's Daily Trading Coach book, the first few chapters themselves focus on your on psyche and what is needed to bring about the change. Those changes are not easy to make. They require time and effort.

At least to me, having a plan which makes sense, and then sticking to it, is perhaps the most important part of being a successful trader. The money eventually follows, as long as you have done your home-work. The biggest challenge of course is sticking to the plan and that requires a lot of work on your own self-being.

In the words of the active trading-room guy I referred to in the previous post "..Trading is about confidence ...". If you do not have confidence in your system, and your ability to execute on your system it becomes a losing game.

Quoting 

I swear that would be very impressive, to the point that most of us, right after thanking, you will be joining L2ST room next day. Including myself. How about it? Take another week or 2 trading with that guru and show us what you have achieved.

(3) I think there lies the problem. You are looking for the holy grail and believe that you can train for two weeks and nail it. The process of becoming a consistently profitable trader requires a lot of time/effort. Above all it requires work on yourself.

On a technical basis, Kam's approach is fairly straightforward. He first marks the zones where responsive sellers/buyers are likely to appear and then looks at order flow for confirmation of that hypothesis. There is no magic in that and it a fairly well understood system.

However, making money not only requires a good technical understanding of the system, but the ability to adapt to what the market is telling you. That is where the psychological part comes in. Are you willing to cut your losses when the order flow is showing more initiative action? Are you willing to hold on to your runners and maximizing your profits?

FWIW, in the L2ST mentor-ship program, Kam strongly recommends that new traders do NOT trade live for AT LEAST six months. He first wants you to have confidence in the technical system you are trading and master its nuances, and then have confidence in your psychological ability to execute that system.

I personally agree with him, even though I am not a part of the program and do not plan to not trading for the next 6 months.

(4) It would really be helpful if you can specify what exactly you disliked about the L2ST folks. Perhaps they themselves have grown as educators and are doing a better job communicating now than they did a few months ago when you joined them.

I do not know how long you have been trading and how many ups and downs you have been through. I personally have had a front row experience (as a front desk quant) at a group which first made 10 digits USD profits, and then lost 11 digits USD. It was OPM but still it was real money. I have seen the Lords of the Universe lose it psychologically, up close and personal. Those trades happened over a period of many months, but the psychological component was not dramatically different from what a day-trader experiences. That is perhaps why I can relate to many things which Kam talks about.