josh 

There is only one Tiger, and only one MJ. You mention the best golfer of all time (by the time he's done anyway), and the undisputed greatest basketball player the world has ever known. If you asked if someone had the willpower to be better than Paul Tudor Jones or run a better hedge fund than Ray Dalio, then that would be a more fair comparison (and most of us would say, that would be great, but only a few million a year will do, thanks). But I don't think anyone here is talking about being at that level. I think that simply preparing for trading alone is something that most people are too lazy to do. I also think that most are too lazy and scared to become introspective enough to face themselves and their faults with a view to transforming themselves (transforming their response to risk, their fear, greed, and all those things that we have to work on). Many are also not confident enough to think for themselves and formulate ideas and so they wind up on the grail quest, following others. I think maybe a select few simply aren't intelligent enough to trade but I think the percentage is small enough to be negligible. Besides that small percentage, I think most people are just unwilling to do the work that is required to really give trading a fair chance, and whether that's lack of willpower, lack of work ethic, or lack of something else, I don't know, but it's definitely true that most will not do it.

Yes I couldn't think of any average golfers or ball players to name.

Absolutely most people are "too lazy", have "faults", "not confident enough", aren't "intelligent enough", "unwilling to do work". These are quotes from above. That person is who he is. It is neither good nor bad, it is who he is. If that person says he wants to be a trader, there is only so much that he can change about himself. Some people are simply not good traders. Why would they want to force it? Why would they put themselves thru such a thing? Surely there are other ways to enjoy their lives other than trading.

The point of this thread was for struggling traders to re-evaluate what they are doing, their actual actions (not just trades), and what that is doing to their life.

I made several real life examples in the beginning of the thread. I cannot imagine how someone would think those people should keep trading just because they control their own destiny and can do whatever they want. That may be true, but it is also a terrible idea.

Mike

Big Mike 

That person is who he is. It is neither good nor bad, it is who he is. If that person says he wants to be a trader, there is only so much that he can change about himself.

I would draw a distinction: "who he is" is not the same as "habits he has" or "what he does" -- I do think people can change their habits dramatically. I have the opportunity to work with people who I have helped over months and years to dramatically improve their self image, and their confidence. I also consider myself as quite "lazy" earlier in life, but I changed my work ethic. If we 'are who we are,' it's quite a depressing life we have ahead of us, if we are so incapable of change, don't you think?

Big Mike 

Some people are simply not good traders. Why would they want to force it? Why would they put themselves thru such a thing? Surely there are other ways to enjoy their lives other than trading. I made several real life examples in the beginning of the thread. I cannot imagine how someone would think those people should keep trading just because they control their own destiny and can do whatever they want. That may be true, but it is also a terrible idea.

Just to be clear, I agree that someone with traits of gambling and other self-destructive behaviors should not be trading, as it could harm the person and family.

Interestingly, I was watching the Science Channel earlier and a program called "Secret Brain" was on. One part was about how people tend to be optimistic; they will take into account data that supports their overly optimistic belief, while ignoring hard factual data that contradicts their beliefs. It was fascinating. The thought is that this behavior is for a reason--it helps us survive and grow. Even if the chances of survival and discovery of new land was slim, Christopher Columbus still sailed; it expanded territory and pushed boundaries. We need this type of irrational behavior as a race because it enables us to push forward.

Without the expectation of success, why would we even get out of bed in the morning? Failure in a particular endeavor may be more likely, based on the past; but it's the expectation of success that motivates us to learn and grow and push, all of which are, as you mention, a prerequisite to gain knowledge, self-understanding, market understanding, and all of those other things we need in order to be successful.

The program on TV was also very enlightening as to conscious and subconscious activity. What we think we are doing, strategy-wise, is not usually what our subconscious is doing, which actually accomplishes a certain task. I think it's the same with trading--seasoned veterans of trading talk about what they do, but they are so tuned in to how things work that they likely do a whole other set of things altogether. From when I first started trading I was blasted for talking about how a trade "felt" -- and while I think that there should be a lot of conscious strategy involved in trading (i.e., know why you're taking a trade), my inner gut is still usually right when it comes to knowing whether a particular trade is going to work or not. The subconscious often knows the right thing to do--it's up to us very often to let go of attachment to outcomes/money/ego and to just trust ourselves enough to listen to our gut. Feeling is so much more important to trading than many people give it credit for, IMO.

Again, to be clear, I know this is not really what the thread is about--but I think the topic affects us all so that's why I relate the above.

To be clear, I also believe people can change. To a limited extent though. I am proof of this, I had to change a lot about myself to be a good trader.

But, I do believe there is a limit. And I also believe some people will suffer a lot of pain, which usually also spills over to their family, if they try to force it.

The point of the thread is not so black and white as what led us to this discussion.

Mike

josh 

I would draw a distinction: "who he is" is not the same as "habits he has" or "what he does" -- I do think people can change their habits dramatically. I have the opportunity to work with people who I have helped over months and years to dramatically improve their self image, and their confidence. I also consider myself as quite "lazy" earlier in life, but I changed my work ethic. If we 'are who we are,' it's quite a depressing life we have ahead of us, if we are so incapable of change, don't you think? Just to be clear, I agree that someone with traits of gambling and other self-destructive behaviors should not be trading, as it could harm the person and family. Interestingly, I was watching the Science Channel earlier and a program called "Secret Brain" was on. One part was about how people tend to be optimistic; they will take into account data that supports their overly optimistic belief, while ignoring hard factual data that contradicts their beliefs. It was fascinating. The thought is that this behavior is for a reason--it helps us survive and grow. Even if the chances of survival and discovery of new land was slim, Christopher Columbus still sailed; it expanded territory and pushed boundaries. We need this type of irrational behavior as a race because it enables us to push forward. Without the expectation of success, why would we even get out of bed in the morning? Failure in a particular endeavor may be more likely, based on the past; but it's the expectation of success that motivates us to learn and grow and push, all of which are, as you mention, a prerequisite to gain knowledge, self-understanding, market understanding, and all of those other things we need in order to be successful. The program on TV was also very enlightening as to conscious and subconscious activity. What we think we are doing, strategy-wise, is not usually what our subconscious is doing, which actually accomplishes a certain task. I think it's the same with trading--seasoned veterans of trading talk about what they do, but they are so tuned in to how things work that they likely do a whole other set of things altogether. From when I first started trading I was blasted for talking about how a trade "felt" -- and while I think that there should be a lot of conscious strategy involved in trading (i.e., know why you're taking a trade), my inner gut is still usually right when it comes to knowing whether a particular trade is going to work or not. The subconscious often knows the right thing to do--it's up to us very often to let go of attachment to outcomes/money/ego and to just trust ourselves enough to listen to our gut. Feeling is so much more important to trading than many people give it credit for, IMO. Again, to be clear, I know this is not really what the thread is about--but I think the topic affects us all so that's why I relate the above.

Big Mike 

To be clear, I also believe people can change. To a limited extent though. I am proof of this, I had to change a lot about myself to be a good trader. But, I do believe there is a limit. And I also believe some people will suffer a lot of pain, which usually also spills over to their family, if they try to force it. The point of the thread is not so black and white as what led us to this discussion. Mike

The whole point of this thread has been validated by these two posts. @josh, that is post whose value is far beyond the sum of its words. @jimjones26 made a very powerful point a few posts ago, you have made an even better one. So close to being a polemic he-said-she-said, and then you and @Big Mike showed the mature way to talk about the point. Kudos

We are nothing, without our dreams. Would I ask my child to curtail his/her dreams for fear that failure may crush them? No, Despite my every emotional tug that would seduce me to tell them to be safe and do something "reachable". I would stand by them for every hard decision taken if done with purity of heart, and that of purpose. In all honesty, I would encourage them fully.

Trading is fantastic and unique avenue that allows us to be masters of our own self. Done right, it will and does improve our lives, it is a quality multiplier. That path is, of course, harsh and life changing, as it should be. As Jack Palance said, find your one thing, and run with it. This is, and should be purpose of this forum.

I almost given up many times. Especially when i blew my first $12000 account. That was when i first started 5 years ago. I was very naive about trading back then.

I almost gave up last year when a propshop said no to me.

I almost gave up when i kept trading for 3 months after the prop shop said no to me. I was a rocking horse plenty of action just not going anywhere. Trading 7 hours a night and keeping my day job and working around 16 hours a day (including trading) and seeing no signs of success.

I almost gave up when the losses kept piling up.

I almost gave up when i spet 6 months developing a trading system and I turned $5000 into $13000 and it went down to $2500.

I almost gave up on countless times.

Only this year did i see the progress i was looking for. It was right in front of my face. I adapted the training propshops use to train there trainees. Then everything changed. Now im a pure price action order flow trader and now starting to see consistency. But more importantly CONSISTENT PROGRESS IN A POSITIVE DIRECTION.

To directly answer your question: I don't think you should ever give up if this is your dream. I didn't and that mentality is the only thing that brought me to this point. I now have 1 Prop Shop very interested in me and i feel there will be more. I literally failed my way to this point and i know i will fail my way to becoming a fully funded successful prop trader.

If this is not your dream, if you don't live and breathe trading. If you don't work your ass off. If you don't trade every day. If you don't want it as bad as you want to breathe then that is the time to give up. You could take what you learnt in trading and put it into something else. Talk to any prop shop and they will tell you the ones who make it are the ones who are over the top obsessed with being a trader. If that isn't you, maybe its time to give up and do something else.

I will tell you one more thing. That if you are seeing progress it motivates you even more. Keep a journal and find a successful prop trader trading what you trade and see how they do it. You will have to look hard but if you really want this you will find someone. Just a heads up they probably wont tell you shit all but you must try to get as much information about this person as possible. I did this and it changed everything. John Grady, The Flipper and some Traders at Propex helped me develop my trading style to mimic what real successful traders do. Follow the bread crums of real traders trading right now. Not in some book. Fk the book most of it is bull shit. Find a real trader trading real money right now! Thats where you will find some answers. Again i say "some answers" because most of them aint gona tell you shit but its enough to direct you in the right direction.

If you're thinking about giving up do this.

1) Find a successful trader or prop trader that trades your instrument. It will be dam hard. The better they are the hard they are to find. Go strait to the source. Find out what they look at. I mean for goodness sake. I live in Australia and i found them. They didn't talk much but i got enough info of them to direct me in the right direction. You guys who live in the USA, or UK have no excuse. If i can do it in Australia you can do it too.

2) Once you know what they look at. Work your ass off and trade every day looking at what they look at. You will fail 1000 times before you start to see any signs of success. You will literally fail your way to successful trading. Time line for junior prop traders before they become consistent is 9 months on average based on my knowledge. And they trade every day for the entire session. Most do this without pay! So ask yourself how bad do these guys want it?

What have i done to become consistent and see progress every day.

I'm letting you know what ive done so you have a baseline of what might be expected of yourself. I can say for me personally that all 5 points are critical to me being at this point in trading.

1) Focus on become 1% better. Every day.
2) Trade every day as much as you can. I work 9 hours a day then trade 6-7 hours a night. I live in Australia so i trade during the night. I work around 16 hours a day. Ever day.
3) Journal every day.
4) Visualize 15 min a day about making good trades. I generally visualise making good trades and focusing on my weaknesses. At this point i visualize making good fade trades. Why? Because i always miss them. What happened last night when i traded? I made one good fade trade that gave me 3 ticks.
5) Don't look at the big picture too much. Success in trading and anything is a whole pile of little steps put together to make one giant leap. Only focus on the next couple of things you should work on. If you look at the entire picture it gets overwhelming. For instance right now Im working on Fade Trading better. Before that I was focusing on not getting chopped up in shallow ranges. Before that it was over trading and not making One Good Trade at a time.

I will be completely honest. At the start of the year i sucked really bad, about April i started seeing positive progress I wasn't losing as much. For the last 3 months i've become consistent. I can make 4 ticks a night on average. Through fading better I could get this to 6-8 ticks. Judging by progress Im looking at 2 more months before 6-8 ticks happens on a consistent basis. Then i will go to Topstep Trader get funded. Then go to Propex next year.

Check out this video
Type into youtube The most motivating 8 min of your life! go to 3:20 min. That person is me. I'm not smart but i dont give up. If i can get to this point in trading you can too. But you must be this guy.

the only reason I know as much as I do about HVAC and Refrigeration is because of the many times I screwed up.

Big Mike 

So the point of this thread is not to talk about really any of that but instead to talk about when it is time to give up, or simply to move on. Mike

I don't think you (or I) can really decide when it's time for someone else to give up or move on. People came to trading from different backgrounds with different goals. So "when" it is time to give up for someone might not work for others.

Think about other questions in same way, when it is time to stop making money? When it is the time to retire? etc.

I think if you rephrase the question, you will get the right answer. So instead when it is the time to give up, it should be when it is the time for me to give up.

giving up is no big thing, just to our ego(s)

..one guy had his whole family implode. his wife and children had to seek protection from the state/city and leave him (the trader). I felt so bad, it haunted me to the point I couldn't even trade properly for the next two days....

..one guy lost his marbles, to be polite, and simply contributes in conversations, just to hold his place holder and his substantial previous contributions to these theads. Sad to say, the willies have contributed to him seeing his friends as foes and losing even those well wishers and their collective concerns for his well being.

..one gal not only lost her marbles and monies but her relative place (i.e. sanity) in having put so much effort and time towards trading. Fortunately, she was able to dust off the resume and pass multiple interviews and have a bidding war on her talents that she was able to return to corporate and with a cushion. Certainly not the norm, and especially in these rigged economic times, where the middle class are simply supposed to just disappear

so, giving up isn't all that bad after all,
at some point its forced upon your account by being under margined anyways....

the question remains,
once more into the breach dear friends,
or swan song?

savvy?

My answer the question when should I quit, is when I determine I won't succeed. I've tried and failed at many endeavors and I have succeeded in several as well. I have my own unique criteria for deciding when to fold and walk away. BUT I have many options for making money and satisfying my intrinsic needs. I also have a sufficient nest egg to take me comfortably to my end of life. I don't need to succeed at trading. I want to. I have a loss limit, if I hit it I will roll up the tent and move on much more wise in a fascinating area of the economy.

Sent from mobile phone

Threads like this really get to the heart and soul of who we really are as people IMHO.

Thank you everyone for being vulnerable and expressing your stories, feelings, and journey on here. I apologize about the length of this but I hope it reaches some traders and perhaps opens some eyes.

In my very humble opinion making a career as a trader has much to do with sacrifice. I often sit out on my surfboard in the open ocean and reminisce about my journey to become a successful professional trader. Although I have "made it" , and achieved consistent financial independence over the past 6 years, the cost has proven extremely great.

I was 26 when i started trading, I was a professional bodybuilder and fitness trainer with no formal education in anything remotely close to finance. I had a young wife who was my lifes love and 2 children (6 and 10 years old at that time).

Clearly defining what i took as my "strengths' that gave me success in my life( Iron discipline and the ability to execute a plan unerringly), I took to the markets guns blazing.

Guys Im really not trying to discourage or encourage anyone. I am mearly attempting to inject a dose of realism into a trade where unrealistic expectations run paramount by sharing my experiences and the rewards/repercussions of it.
I hear stories all the time of people saying how they are the types "who never give up", or who " will always persevere no matter what because they KNOW they can do it!" And other such colloquialisms.

Such a pollyannic attitude of thinking that "if you just hang in there long enough eventually you will win out", or that "if you win some sort of war of attrition with the market ultimately you will become a great trader" is just suicidal. We are inundated in society with the "Rocky" movies and other such "against all odds" type scenarios. Fellas, there is a REASON that these are movies. They are the dream, and they are absolutely the exception to the norm. Primarily done by exceptional people with untapped exceptional qualities.

We ALL want to be like that. We all love to think we are able to separate from the masses. And possibly in some ways we can. In fact I happen to have been an extremely successful champion bodybuilder. It took a massive amount of dedication, work, discipline and fortitude to bring a 265lb shredded physique to a stage. THAT was my gift and I found that trading took that PLUS a WHOLE lot more.

I put in my 10,000 hours of trading forex. I went to the ends of the internet and back. I focused on money management, risk analysis, price action, fundamental analysis, etc etc...

ENDLESS hours with no sleep... studying studying... persevering in some blind hope that I could achieve the same successes as many we hear about...

But... Success escaped me.... The doors just kept closing, accounts just kept slowly dwindling down... and the dream was dying a very quiet death.... All the while i found my interpersonal relationships with my wife and kids starting to suffer... More on that later..

I think perhaps it boils down to more than just "Can i make it in trading?" It is more a question of " Do I want to LIVE the traders life?" Frankly I feel that the vast majority are not near adequately ready to answer that question nor are most in anyway prepared for what an undertaking it is.

Being a zero sum business it is truly a journey into a complete unknown hostile battlefield for most without the help of even a compass or a weapon. In alignment with that analogy the odds are overwhelmingly against most. As somber of a thought as that may be, it is the hard truth.

I personally went through a very in-depth study of the marketplace after my first 6 months of floundering about. I studied the infrastructure of what creates the markets(forex, futures, equities, options, bonds, warrants, etc..). I studied how liquidity works, how are orders are filled, the interbank system. I learned about all the players across all the major markets, how they place their orders, what their aims are(commercial, institutional, CB's and retailers, etc). I studied Price Action for endless hours, staring at charts, plotting lines at support/resistance/supply/demand levels on all time frames to trade to and from. I studied the intricacies of market timing, the Gold fixes, how swap works, how brokers work. I went into in depth studies and read books on fundamental analysis. I learned a tremendous amount about the bond markets, yield curves, gold/oil ratios, correlating markets. I read every central bank book I could find. I know about the Fed top to bottom, the ECB, the RBA, the BOE. From the major players in those banks to how they originated. I studied fractional reserve banking because i wanted to learn how to asses how any of the policy makers could move the prices of currencies in relationship to one another. I read endless books on orderflow and macroeconomics. I strived to try and understand how and why certain policies and catalysts around the world would move one currency agaisnt the others.

All this time endlessly looking at charts. Hours and hours spent putting in demo trade after demo trade testing and endlessly testing.

I never believed in any technical indicators. I still dont. I always just traded Naked charts. Maybe at the most I used a stochastic early on but id be hard pressed to explain what almost any of the other lagging indicators does. To me they have never made sense. Trust me, I studied ALL of them in massive detail.

I placed together my system using multiple time frames with S/R, S/D zones, fundamental drivers, watching for news catalysts, my endless charting knowledge of PA, my risk management in place, looking at market timing, pre-panning my trades, etc etc..... it met with failure time and time again. days turned to weeks and weeks turned to months as I tried tweaking and adjusting, studying harder, working more and more. I REFUSED to be undone! I changed my risk management, time frames, used only PA I thought had the BEST chances of working. I called on help from every trader more veteran than myself and they all gave me advice. Still, I failed.

I figured it must be my psychology. So I delved heavily into self exploration, meditation, read books. Sought out gurus, got my mind right. Tried to identify my fears of losing or attachement to money. I made Goals, endless goals. Every day. I planned my life 10 years into the future in every aspect i could to achieve the "trading mindset".

I felt as ready as ever and went back into the market. More months fell off the chart as my accounts kept slowly dwindling down and dying. If I was using a 3:1 reward to risk Id lose 4 out of 5 trades consistently. It was always a slow bleed.

I then went the path of trying to find a mentor. Someone who could help me to identify my flaws in my trading/self and guide me to correct them. At this point years had already been spent and frustration was starting to set in. I had sacrificed much. My family had fallen apart, my work was suffering, as was my health(which I had prided myself on for my whole life) from the many nights up late trading and focusing. Trying to self sustain on negative returns.

Relentlessly I pushed on.

The mentors all were dead ends. I was watching my close friends starting to achieve success. They tried to help me, going so far as to try and copy their systems. All met with more failure.

More years went by. My wife and love left me with the kids. I made sure the door didnt hit them in the ass on their way out....Such was my obsession to not be undone...

Success did not come with it.

I moved into studying the quantside of trading. Learning to program code. Momentum trading, mean-reversion trading, Sharpe ratio, etc etc. Trying to learn to achieve positive kurtosis through algo identification of price trends. I delved deeply into this thinking that maybe, just maybe it was my only way. I ran into a brick wall. My algos would get taken out, my hidden markov models did not have the proper risk management protocols built in to keep me safe from many of the hidden liquidity issues in the fx markets and again.... suffice to say, I again was met with more defeat

At this point, utterly defeated, not knowing where to turn. I withdrew deeply into myself and saw what my life had become. I had become a shell of who i once was. I took a long break and a long period of self reflection and came to the end of my rope.

I was busted, homeless, alone, living in my car and sustaining on $.29 taco Tuesdays at taco bell. I showered at the gym and studied trading on Starbucks Wifi. I had no idea where my wife or kids were until the divorce papers showed up at my parents house since i didnt have a physical address.

When doors open in life. It is wise to walk through them. I believe we all have a calling. Im not religious, but I believe in a higher "self. To listen to the signs of life makes life much easier and it goes more smoothly. It was only after this realization I finally made my decision that the doors were firmly closed on my decision to become a trader. I learned a great deal about finance, markets, ect... but Mostly about myself.


I am far from a fascinating case study. I committed to giving my all to learning these markets much like many other aspiring traders start out. I was never one to easily give up on anything in life.

Tenacity and discipline has given me many of the things in my life I am the most proud of as well as thankful for. There just came a point to where the cost benefit of working to master the markets and live the "lifestyle" became more than I was willing to pay.

I ended up one night sitting on the beach, utterly destroyed, with the barrel of a loaded .44 between my teeth. I sobbed and sobbed and cried out to whatever powers that be that if this was the end for me just give me the strength the pull the trigger.... I got my answer when i woke up in the morning, soaking wet and freezing cold, but alive. That was my bottom.

I was still certain it was possible to trade these markets successfully. There is far to much evidence to support it and I would never be so obtuse as to argue in opposition. I simply came to the simple realization that we are all NOT created equal, nor do we all have the same capacity for successes and failures in different ventures in this life.

I ultimately realized the fact that maybe I had overcomplicated a more simplistic business. That being said it is quite a feat "unlearning" everything. Armed with the knowledge I had nothing to lose I resolved to cut out as much as possible to create a trading system that was simplistic, profitable, and viable. With what i had been through the concepts of losing money being the worst thing that could happen simply disappeared and I started to see profit in my trading.

Then more profits, and MORE profits. To my astonishment in less than 12 months I reached a peak watermark in my finances for life. Unfortunately I cannot say the same about my health or my relationships. I have never met anyone else and feel as though I have truly sacrificed my true soulmate for my fiscal successes. My children dont want to see me as Im afraid I destroyed those relationships too in their formative years in my unrelenting pursuit of success in trading.

All this being said, I have accepted my life where it is. I am listening more than ever to my "inner-self" and going along with the type of life that I feel is more in alignment with who I want to show up as in life. I opened up a small training studio and have rekindled my passion for helping others through fitness.

The vast majority of traders are extremely introverted and highly analytical. While I am certainly the latter, I am by no means the former. Trading is a lonely business. Traders do not really give anything meaningful back to society in the way that doctors, engineers, teachers, and any other more humanitarian type career does. I personally always had a difficult time with that aspect. As a personal trainer by trade I have always loved the aspect of helping people look better, feel more youthful, and improve the quality of an individuals life . It is a different sort of gratification than watching the GBP/JPY go +50 pips in profit. I am sure we have all heard of and possibly lived(I know i have) through a personal relationship falling apart due to the demands of the financial markets. It, by the very nature, breeds isolation from the rest of society.

Knowing who we are from what we are not is an integral part of our lessons in this world. Once you do know who and what you are it is wise to act in accordance to it.

Make certain the cost of what you want to do with this business is what you are prepared to bear


Wulf