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Time to Give Up


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Time to Give Up

  #471 (permalink)
Mozart2112
Minoqua Wi USA
 
Posts: 119 since Sep 2019
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Great Thread... Psychology in trading and life in general is so important and not discussed enough I think. Understanding it or the lack of understanding can be the difference in the success of a trader. We, our selves, are our own worst enemy! But, the beauty is, once we realize and admit that to ourselves, we can flip the switch. Though it's not easy, you can be on the right path in life, making right decisions and being on the right side of the market building discipline through small goals and execution plans...

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  #472 (permalink)
 
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Maelstrom View Post
,

And my two cents....

I have always, always been a firm believer in the following: one can achieve anything in life, IF they are willing to sacrifice anything for it.

Bold statement to be sure, and it does have to be grounded in reality to a certain degree. If I decide I want to fly, the chances of me figuring out how to flap my arms fast enough to get airborne are pretty much nil. But... I can certainly get a pilot's license, or go hang gliding, or any number of things to achieve my goal.

My initial answer to your question about that person above.... IF that trader is willing to burn his kids college fund, IF he is willing to hand over that 20K in courses, and IF he is willing to sacrifice his marriage and family for trading... then yes, he should be trading.

Sound ridiculous? Absolutely. But, right or wrong, in a sick sort of way you would have to appreciate someone's absolute dedication to their goal no matter what. Brings to mind the Samurai mentality - duty above all else.

The only thing that doesn't fit in all that is this - by getting married, having kids, etc, this "trader's" first duty is to his family, to the commitments he has made to them, expressed or implied, to take care of them as a husband and father. If he/she wants to be a trader first, at all costs, then she should not sacrifice anyone else's lives or futures for that.

This thread, and that post of yours Mike, struck a deep and painful cord in me. Been there, done that to a certain degree, a long time ago. Having had much success in my life in so many different areas, I knew, just KNEW, that I could succeed at trading also. After all, how hard could it be.... buy low, sell high, right? Make truckloads of money and everyone will be happy as can be.

I was humbled beyond belief, lost A LOT, and not just talking about money. And it took me a long time to admit defeat. I am infinitely regretful for my blind pride and arrogance, but, I am also thankful in a way. I fell, I got up, and I have persevered. I have learned, and although I wish I had done things differently, I can now look back and see that every little thing was a lesson, painful as it may have been.

Wow, looking over my post, certainly didn't think I was going to spill my guts about my dark trading addiction days, and hesitating to hit the submit button. But, who knows, maybe it will help someone. I know for a fact that one can be successful in this endeavor - I trade, I am profitable, and more importantly, I am comfortable with what I do.

After all that, my answer to your question is....no, this person should not be trading. BUT.... if they are that far into that type of situation, they will absolutely not listen to anyone - you, me, their family - no one. They will have to take the absolute ass kicking that they are in for, and either be better for it, or not. I sympathize with your situation and all those types of communications I know you get on a regular basis, but someone like that has an addiction, and just like any other habit, is going to have to hit rock bottom before they come back up.

I know from experience.

@Maelstrom I just read your post now (1st January 2021). I want to say that your answer is helping me to stay positive.
I understand Mike's point of view that is very rational, but it helped me to hear that someone was disagreeing with his vision.

I risked half of my lifesaving in trading and I put in jeopardy my family (though my family was just me and my wife). I feel sorry and regretful for that but I think you only have one life and you have to chase your dreams.
If I hadn't chased my dreams years ago, I wouldn't have created my company and I wouldn't have even had the money to start trading.

I believe I can make it in trading because I had several successes in my life. I know I can make it, of course rationally I cannot justify it but how many of the worthy things in life can be rationally explained?
Can you explain music, passion or love?

I will just fight and work on my project. If it doesn't work at least I tried.


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  #473 (permalink)
lightsun47
Toronto, Canada
 
Posts: 357 since May 2018
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^You know what WILL help you? Start with very small goals regarding your profit targets. E.g. If you're an ES trader, try to get only one point a day and quit. Of course, manage your stops too, equally good. This way, you're risking less and gaining confidence.

Let me tell you this: A person I know stayed with making one and only one point a day on one contract (ES) for FIVE straight months (only a few stopouts throughout that stretch). Then, once he knew it was ok, he went to 2,3,5,10....50....100..... and THREE HUNDRED contracts! He opened his own LLC as retailers are capped at max one hundred contracts.

How did this happen? Well you start from one contract and then move on of course. Build confidence. Manage stops. This is a game of probabilities. Watch and learn from Mark Douglas' videos. That is it.

P.S. That trader is the only reason I am still in the game today, otherwise I would have quit a long time ago. He also reiterated and sculpted something in my mind: You can achieve anything you want in life - just try harder and look more carefully. Hope it helps. Good luck.

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  #474 (permalink)
 
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lightsun47 View Post
^You know what WILL help you? Start with very small goals regarding your profit targets. E.g. If you're an ES trader, try to get only one point a day and quit. Of course, manage your stops too, equally good. This way, you're risking less and gaining confidence.

Let me tell you this: A person I know stayed with making one and only one point a day on one contract (ES) for FIVE straight months (only a few stopouts throughout that stretch). Then, once he knew it was ok, he went to 2,3,5,10....50....100..... and THREE HUNDRED contracts! He opened his own LLC as retailers are capped at max one hundred contracts.

How did this happen? Well you start from one contract and then move on of course. Build confidence. Manage stops. This is a game of probabilities. Watch and learn from Mark Douglas' videos. That is it.

P.S. That trader is the only reason I am still in the game today, otherwise I would have quit a long time ago. He also reiterated and sculpted something in my mind: You can achieve anything you want in life - just try harder and look more carefully. Hope it helps. Good luck.

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Thanks for the feedback, I must say that I thought a lot about this approach. In the past my best trading months were the ones in which I stopped trading after making a certain amount of money.
I tried this in the past but I had the following issues with this approach
1) after making a couple of good trades and reach the daily goal I didn't know what to do the rest of the day. (it seems so strange to stay disconnected from the market until the next day)
2) I feel that by being away from the market, I give up valuable learning opportunities (basically the good trades I take are based on experienced built in the past, if I stop trading only after 2/3 trades per day when will I be learning and improving?)
3) rationally it doesn't make sense to stop trading while you are in sync with the market and I would like to be able to trade throughout the day and don't feel fear of giving it all back.

I think your advice is really wise but in my mind I want to "build a style of trading" in which I can sit in front of my computer as much as I want without taking stupid trades. I know from monetary standpoint it would be wiser to walk away.
Do you think that I should focus more on "making money" rather than on trading?

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  #475 (permalink)
lightsun47
Toronto, Canada
 
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What is the title of this thread?

Time to give up.

Why you think people give up? Because when you start losing, you start going down mentally as well - especially if you start losing what you cannot afford to.

I would rather make my goal for today, EVERYDAY, then quit happily knowing the market can do WHATEVER it wants to - I just hit my goal for the day. I am done for today. I will do EXACTLY the same thing tomorrow, with confidence, be done and shut off.

Regarding your monetary goals, they will start appearing by themselves once you know this secret of sustainability everyday - you just have to be consistent in what you're doing with confidence everyday. Yes, focus on your monetary goals because that's what they drag you everyday there too, but keep all these facts in mind too that all these are just random probabilities and you are just exploiting your edge for your gains everyday. Good luck.

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  #476 (permalink)
 
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lightsun47 View Post
What is the title of this thread?

Time to give up.

Why you think people give up? Because when you start losing, you start going down mentally as well - especially if you start losing what you cannot afford to.

I would rather make my goal for today, EVERYDAY, then quit happily knowing the market can do WHATEVER it wants to - I just hit my goal for the day. I am done for today. I will do EXACTLY the same thing tomorrow, with confidence, be done and shut off.

Regarding your monetary goals, they will start appearing by themselves once you know this secret of sustainability everyday - you just have to be consistent in what you're doing with confidence everyday. Yes, focus on your monetary goals because that's what they drag you everyday there too, but keep all these facts in mind too that all these are just random probabilities and you are just exploiting your edge for your gains everyday. Good luck.

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Thanks a lot for your feedback, I never thought about it that way but I think you are completely right: when you start losing you go down mentally and this has a big impact on the P&L.
I will try to fix some daily goal and stop once I reach them.

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  #477 (permalink)
 ZviTradingCoach   is a Vendor
 
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SBtrader82 View Post
Thanks for the feedback, I must say that I thought a lot about this approach. In the past my best trading months were the ones in which I stopped trading after making a certain amount of money.
I tried this in the past but I had the following issues with this approach
1) after making a couple of good trades and reach the daily goal I didn't know what to do the rest of the day. (it seems so strange to stay disconnected from the market until the next day)
2) I feel that by being away from the market, I give up valuable learning opportunities (basically the good trades I take are based on experienced built in the past, if I stop trading only after 2/3 trades per day when will I be learning and improving?)
3) rationally it doesn't make sense to stop trading while you are in sync with the market and I would like to be able to trade throughout the day and don't feel fear of giving it all back.

I think your advice is really wise but in my mind I want to "build a style of trading" in which I can sit in front of my computer as much as I want without taking stupid trades. I know from monetary standpoint it would be wiser to walk away.
Do you think that I should focus more on "making money" rather than on trading?

Yes, your goal should definitely be to be able to "sit as much as you want without stupid trades".
Moving from the screen is a tool to help tackle unsolved mind issues which mess up the trading. It's a short term solution that, while very important, shouln't distract us from the real goal which is to get ourselves focused mentally while trading.

Reading your comment, and being with background in subconscious work, some subconscious limiting beliefs just scream from your text, which I hope may be beneficial for you or others with similar thoughs to be aware of.
I could of coures be mistaken as I am only basing this on your comment, not on any personal aquaintance or conversation.
But if any of this rings a bell for you, you may want to consider exploring these issues.

They are in the following areas:
- First and foremost: Need for activity. Is it possible you are seeing trading as relief from boredom, and feel discomfort/difficulty when facing boredom/"vacuum"? (very common in our activity-addicted society).
- Fear of missing out on opportunities.
- Equating "activity" with learning or progress.
- Giving much weight - to a near mystical degree - to being "in/out of synch with market" rather than to just following your rules. It's really more about being out of synch with yourself.

I Wish you good trading success.

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  #478 (permalink)
ArmaTrader97
Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
 
Posts: 5 since Jun 2021
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If someone invest years in trading and now give up, he will probably also give up on other stuff in life. MM, consistent, discipline, emotion control, patience are key words

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  #479 (permalink)
bobwilliamstn21
nashville, tn
 
Posts: 3 since Aug 2021
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Hey Mike, great post. I hear a lot about a trading plan and wondered if you could share an example here. It would be helpful to learn your experience in this area.

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  #480 (permalink)
 Harveys 
brisbane queensland australia
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: CQG
Trading: SPI 200futures
Posts: 9 since Jan 2017
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Hi Mike.Harveys here.I really appreciate your words of wisdom.This post really cuts deep with me as I have been trading for over 20 years now.I have given up more times that I wish to remember,but I keep coming back.I haven’t lost a lot of money,but mentally it has nearly destroyed me.I just believe that there no logical reason stopping me from being what I have always wanted to be.That is a successful futures trader.Even though I am 73 now I refuse to give up.
So here I go again reopening my futures account.Wish me luck this time.
I will keep you informed as to my success.
Thanks Harveys

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