Hi Jigsaw,

I am currently a Sierra user but loathe them both as a company and as a product. I want to switch to Jigsaw now that I read you are releasing complete charting shortly. One major thing that I use in every trade is my theoretical average. It is a simple calculation but one I had to write custom for Sierra. Bookmap comes with this feature built-in, so some platforms can do it out of the box.

Can the DOM or the charts have an ability to plot the traders theoretical average over the life of their "trade" while scaling in and out multiple times?

With kind regards,
MK

Midknight 

Can the DOM or the charts have an ability to plot the traders theoretical average over the life of their "trade" while scaling in and out multiple times?

While you wait for a reply from Jigsaw, yes, the DOM can track the trade profit taking in to account partial profits from scale outs to adjust the "theoretical average" during a trade. You check both the highlighted boxes in the DOM options for the Trade Column.

Thanks for the info Matthew. A lot of platforms say they do this (cough such as Sierra) but they do not actually do it properly. The problem at sierra is something like they match your entries to an exit in some sort of LIFO or FIFO queue rather than a simple all entries and exits need to be counted in one flat to flat cycle. It is crucial information for me as someone that is scaling in / out.

More questions about Jigsaw. Back in DEC 2021 I was in communication with "Bruno" about some feature queries.

- When I am doing research across timeframes it is easy for me to get lost. To help, it is super useful to have the crosshair in sync and replicated across all charts. Can Jigsaw do this?

- I am mostly trading in Asia on the Osaka Nikkei and on HKex with the Hang Seng or H-shares. Bruno had told me that you can only do market replay via your special "market replay providers", of which he only mentioned NT8 or Tradeovate. I am using CQG and to the best of my knowledge the data providers me mentioned do not offer my markets. I find it hard to believe that you cannot do a market replay on these markets as I thought I read they were supported by Jigsaw. Please give me some good news and tell me that it is possible to do a market replay on my Asian products.

With kind regards,
MK

Jigsaw Trading 

I found you on support. I agree with you - you got bullshit answers and I am going to ensue that stops. It's a growing pain - but one where a manager is in place to manage the growing. The replies you got were ludicrous. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. My apologies. You can have a a free lifetime license if you are on the look out again. This time I'll support you myself.

I sent you an email and a DM 10 days ago. Still no response.

@ Jigsaw Trading / Peter Davies

I read in this thread that you also offer a way to trial Jigsaw without upfront payment. Is that still an option? I shelled out so much money for software lately, that I really don't want to burn any more money before I know if the software actually works like I want it to. I paid a fortune for ATAS only to be ignored at the very first technical issue they caused with an update. I contacted support to ask about this possibility, but only got back the usual reply to get the money returned after 14 days. When I mentioned that you posted this option here in the futures.io forum, they just ignored me and never got back to me. So is this option no longer valid? I really am intrigued by Jigsaw, but since my bad experiences lately with software companies, I am just careful to put money anywhere without trying it first.

grodsky 

The differences in the pulling/stacking numbers between programs is an interesting one. It's puzzled me for a long time and I eventually got around to raising it with Jigsaw support last November but without much result. This was fair enough I felt as it really requires a detailed technical analysis between different vendors' products. I don't use SC anymore but it always gave very different results to JS. Also Overcharts gives different numbers (all using Rithmic). The Denali SC feed seemed to give the same numbers as Rithmic. So, my view is that it must be the timing, the frequency or other detail of how it's calculated that's causing the difference rather than the feed. Certainly JS gives few numbers away from the inside bid/offer in comparison. Now I just go with JS and just one level. It certainly shows icebergs on the ES very well. I would love some techically competent person to delve deeper.

I hear you - the trouble is - if we give you our rules, they'll be copied by everyone. We were the first to put this into the DOM, so everyone else has tried to reproduce what we did - with varying levels of success.

In terms of data providers - there can be a difference as we are synching L1 and L2 data. CQG for instance is synched for us. Other feeds, we have to manually synchronize.

IT does what it says on the box - but how it does it, we have to keep to ourselves as it's proprietary tech.

renegade2022 

@ Jigsaw Trading / Peter Davies I read in this thread that you also offer a way to trial Jigsaw without upfront payment. Is that still an option? I shelled out so much money for software lately, that I really don't want to burn any more money before I know if the software actually works like I want it to. I paid a fortune for ATAS only to be ignored at the very first technical issue they caused with an update. I contacted support to ask about this possibility, but only got back the usual reply to get the money returned after 14 days. When I mentioned that you posted this option here in the futures.io forum, they just ignored me and never got back to me. So is this option no longer valid? I really am intrigued by Jigsaw, but since my bad experiences lately with software companies, I am just careful to put money anywhere without trying it first.

Sorry this is late. We don't offer a free trial - but the refund is legit, so you are safe to get your money refunded if it's not.

This saves us money in license management and means we can take calls from people that are at least semi-serious. Tire kickers tend to take the most support resources.

TWDsje 

What chipwitch was talking about is likely to be an issue with sorting out the right settings as Peter pointed out. You're bringing up a much more interesting issue which has nothing to do with the software, but rather how market data works. So this could lead to a situation where in one feed the market depth update comes before the volume, and in the other feed the update comes after the volume. That small difference of a few milliseconds could change how your cumulative delta or current trades classifies the market orders. It could also change what your stacking/pulling columns show. MBO data would fix the problem because when the level 2 updates it does it by order, and thus tells you if the order was canceled or filled. It's not a problem that should ever factor in for a retail trader though as the difference is quite trivial. Seems to me that the exchange / data providers could fix this by attaching exchange timestamps to every data event, but whatever. It's not worth the resources to change.

@TWDsje........in your research have you ever run across an add-on to Ninja (or any app for that matter) that can do the following below? I was disappointed to discover that Jigsaw "snapshot" column simply tallies and nets out changes in working quantities posted at each price rather than something I wrote in the Ninja forum in a add-on thread on my wish list:

I've called the CME support desk (GCC). They've confirmed Time & Sales which the CME disseminates are timestamped snapshots of the bid/offer price; the bid/offer size & last buy/sale price w/size for every trade. SO theoretically we should be able to do the math every time a trade occurs that's greater than the DOM bid/offer posted working orders in that nanosecond. That net difference represents some portion or all of a "hidden" order lurking in the weeds. What I'm envisioning is a column along side the imbalance "Sell/Buy" columns with the cumulative value of this net difference for each price up/down the range for the session. This way we can see how the imbalances are accumulating for price levels greater than posted limit order sizes. IMHO Its all about getting a weather vane for supply and demand at various prices inclusive of all orders eg hidden ones too. I'm betting that we will begin to see true support and resistance prices as all the big guys hide their true positioning most probably in concert as they suss[sic] each other out with far more sophisticated algo tools than we have available on the retail level. This may be a bit half baked but I hope the concept is sound. I've been watching several MarketDelta vids on Youtube by Trevor Harnett where he mentions in one that he noticed trades sized > the posted bid/offer size as he remembered it just prior to that last size trade. That was 8 years ago when Icebergs the new game in town for retail traders; I think. I know from my work experience @an FCM we offered canned order types even more sophisticated than Iceberg algos to customers that will only shoot in limit orders to grab a particular price as it appears in the market; otherwise not shown in depth of market. I'm sure the really big guys have DIYs of even better algos.

Bottom line is in a centralized marketplace without duel listings on multiple exchanges, trades don't lie and we can all see them.

Regards

trymph 

@TWDsje........in your research have you ever run across an add-on to Ninja (or any app for that matter) that can do the following below? I was disappointed to discover that Jigsaw "snapshot" column simply tallies and nets out changes in working quantities posted at each price rather than something I wrote in the Ninja forum in a add-on thread on my wish list: I've called the CME support desk (GCC). They've confirmed Time & Sales which the CME disseminates are timestamped snapshots of the bid/offer price; the bid/offer size & last buy/sale price w/size for every trade. SO theoretically we should be able to do the math every time a trade occurs that's greater than the DOM bid/offer posted working orders in that nanosecond. That net difference represents some portion or all of a "hidden" order lurking in the weeds. What I'm envisioning is a column along side the imbalance "Sell/Buy" columns with the cumulative value of this net difference for each price up/down the range for the session. This way we can see how the imbalances are accumulating for price levels greater than posted limit order sizes. IMHO Its all about getting a weather vane for supply and demand at various prices inclusive of all orders eg hidden ones too. I'm betting that we will begin to see true support and resistance prices as all the big guys hide their true positioning most probably in concert as they suss[sic] each other out with far more sophisticated algo tools than we have available on the retail level. This may be a bit half baked but I hope the concept is sound. I've been watching several MarketDelta vids on Youtube by Trevor Harnett where he mentions in one that he noticed trades sized > the posted bid/offer size as he remembered it just prior to that last size trade. That was 8 years ago when Icebergs the new game in town for retail traders; I think. I know from my work experience @an FCM we offered canned order types even more sophisticated than Iceberg algos to customers that will only shoot in limit orders to grab a particular price as it appears in the market; otherwise not shown in depth of market. I'm sure the really big guys have DIYs of even better algos. Bottom line is in a centralized marketplace without duel listings on multiple exchanges, trades don't lie and we can all see them. Regards

When volume comes in you're getting and update for every limit order that was filled rather than an update for each market order that went through. So if one market order of 1000k takes out several hundred different limit orders you'll get a bunch of updates. Hence the whole purpose behind Jigsaw's reconstructed tape. There's also still the issue of whether the volume gets reported first or whether you see the change in the level 2 first.

The easiest solution for this is to just run Jigsaw's Reconstructed Tape, and set the alert to be larger than what the usual resting liquidity is. So if we're putting up 1000's in ZN right now, an alert for 1200 or more would probably alert you to this condition well enough.