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AMP Futures / AMP Global Review

  #491 (permalink)
futures trader
san diego, ca USA
 
Posts: 29 since May 2014
Thanks Given: 25
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AMP just can't seem to get out of it's own way as it reveals private email conversation with customer in public forum

https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/i-have-decided-to-put-a-significant-amount-of-my-money-with-amp.345379/page-3

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  #492 (permalink)
futures trader
san diego, ca USA
 
Posts: 29 since May 2014
Thanks Given: 25
Thanks Received: 20

Elitetrader moderator is going into posts from forum users and editing their remarks in ongoing AMP review thread. Mind you, not simply deleting comments, but making edits to them! AMP is a paid sponsor at elitetrader. Buyer beware.

Here is a thread started on reddit referencing the event.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Daytrading/comments/gtsk5r/do_not_trust_amp_futuresamp_global_or/

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  #493 (permalink)
 RT777 
Toronto Canada
 
Posts: 41 since May 2020



josh View Post
From AMP in an email just now:

I hope everyone here understands the ONLY reason AMP took this action on the 21st, is because THEY failed to support negative pricing and caused at least 8 traders to be trapped in positions they could not get out of on the the 20th.

This was not the action of a hero, it was simply a pathetic attempt to misrepresent the facts of what really happened.

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  #494 (permalink)
 
mattz's Avatar
 mattz   is a Vendor
 
Posts: 2,493 since Sep 2010
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The support of negative prices is done through the technology FCMs use—my understanding through discussions that CQG, Rithmic, and TT is that they did support negative prices. You are more than welcome to confirm with them directly. They are independent ISV (independent software vendor).

According to Mr. Duffy head of the CME, there were less than 80 contracts traded at zero. Minute 1.25
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2020/04/22/cme-group-ceo-responds-to-requests-for-investigation.html
This means that when the price about to hit zero if you placed MKT, it could have been way in the negative already.

Once the price broke zero, the Bid-Ask has grown to dollars, not cents, and orders under such volatility may and do get rejected. Just because you see the price at X, does do not mean you will get X. You may get filled at X Minus 10 points if shorting at the market, or X+10 if long if placing MKT orders. Again, this is under very specific circumstances.

If you recall the Flash Crash of 2010, thee Bid-Ask was 12 points ($600), not the typical one tick you see.
I saw the same type of behavior on the ES Options during the meltdown of 2018.

My point is not to absolve brokers or FCM from their fiduciary duty. We have our roles, and we must comply with regulations and rules pertaining to us. However, Futures as an asset class can behave beyond the scope and control of the broker and the technology they carry. As an asset class, you are trading high leverage, global markets that go at times into harsh trading environments where you could potentially lose way beyond your initial investment. "Normal times" with less volatility make us at times "relaxed" about the asset class we trade. This year was a sober reminder of what happens when a global event shakes the market and how the Futures market behaves.

Thank you,
Matt Z
Optimus Futures

There is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results. The placement of contingent orders by you or broker, or trading advisor, such as a “stop-loss” or “stop-limit” order, will not necessarily limit your losses to the intended amounts, since market conditions may make it impossible to execute such orders.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
1 800 771 6748 local 561 367 8686 email [email protected]
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  #495 (permalink)
 RT777 
Toronto Canada
 
Posts: 41 since May 2020


mattz View Post
The support of negative prices is done through the technology FCMs use—my understanding through discussions that CQG, Rithmic, and TT is that they did support negative prices. You are more than welcome to confirm with them directly. They are independent ISV (independent software vendor).

What you are asking me to do is ask the people responsible for the negligence in this situation, to tell me they weren't negligent? That's hilarious but I don't need any more proof than I already have that they have completely LIED to all their customers as a result of this event. Perhaps I should start a new thread so that I can post all the FACTS that I do have that tell the REAL NEWS.

If you choose to believe what you have been told, in my opinion, you have been clearly duped if you think they supported negative pricing.

This screen shot was taken a full 6 days after the event via CQG desktop. I also have lots more proof. Perhaps I should share it all in a new thread titled AMP Global Clearing - Oil Losses - Breach of Fiduciary Duty - 4/20/2020.


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  #496 (permalink)
 
mattz's Avatar
 mattz   is a Vendor
 
Posts: 2,493 since Sep 2010
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RT777 View Post


Your image shows an exchange rejected order. I suggest contacting the exchange and match it with the time and sales logs that the broker could provide.

I did not come here to defend anyone. I am merely talking about and explaining the mechanics of Futures.
Orders entered below Zero could be rejected, or exited at prices that are not in one's favor.
I suggest that no one should attempt to trade in any conditions that they have not to seen before.

(pasted screenshot)


Thanks,
Matt Z
Optimus Futures

There is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
1 800 771 6748 local 561 367 8686 email [email protected]
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  #497 (permalink)
 RT777 
Toronto Canada
 
Posts: 41 since May 2020


mattz View Post
Your image shows an exchange rejected order. I suggest contacting the exchange and match it with the time and sales logs that the broker could provide.

I did not come here to defend anyone. I am merely talking about and explaining the mechanics of Futures.
Orders entered below Zero could be rejected, or exited at prices that are not in one's favor.
I suggest that no one should attempt to trade in any conditions that they have not to seen before.

My post was not about the mechanics of the market at that time. THAT is a completely different topic that CFTC is investigating. Please don't confound the topic about support for negative pricing with concepts about the mechanics of futures.

I find it sad in that your possible explanation is as lame as the one AMP gave customers caught in their negligence. AMP/Dan also made the same point stating is was rejected by the exchange. Since when did demo orders get rejected by the exchange? THAT'S HILARIOUS.

Apparently you don't even have a basic understanding of how the pipeline works and where certain codes are generated. As a side note, I also have evidence that the exchange did NOT reject any orders at that time.

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  #498 (permalink)
 
bobwest's Avatar
 bobwest 
Western Florida
Site Moderator
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Trading: ES, YM
Frequency: Several times daily
Duration: Minutes
Posts: 8,162 since Jan 2013
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RT777 View Post
My post was not about the mechanics of the market at that time. THAT is a completely different topic that CFTC is investigating. Please don't confound the topic about support for negative pricing with concepts about the mechanics of futures.

I find it sad in that your possible explanation is as lame as the one AMP gave customers caught in their negligence. AMP/Dan also made the same point stating is was rejected by the exchange. Since when did demo orders get rejected by the exchange? THAT'S HILARIOUS.

Apparently you don't even have a basic understanding of how the pipeline works and where certain codes are generated. As a side note, I also have evidence that the exchange did NOT reject any orders at that time.

Hi @RT777,

It is important that this matter be discussed, and so all factual information and reasoned argument is welcome.

Whatever of a factual nature you can contribute will be welcomed for this reason, so this situation can be understood by the other traders here, and any risks can be assessed and taken into account.

What is not important is disparagement of other members. Refutation of their assertions of fact are fine, accompanied by factual evidence and reasoning of your own. Personal comments to the effect that they don't have a "basic understanding" of anything, particularly something that is intrinsic to their business ( @mattz is a broker) are not. All members are expected to be civil and essentially respectful of other members, even if they think they are dead wrong. Tell them where they are wrong, and have the facts when you do.

You are new here, and I have no reason to think you will not be a strong contributor. I have read your posts to date and think you will fit in just fine and will be a positive factor, as we all wish to be.

But please tone down the personal remarks. Give us some facts and we will eat it up, and members will be happy to have them.

Bob.

When one door closes, another opens.
-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
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  #499 (permalink)
 
mattz's Avatar
 mattz   is a Vendor
 
Posts: 2,493 since Sep 2010
Thanks Given: 2,440
Thanks Received: 3,789

@bobwest Thank you as always trying to keep it civil. I tried to help while he is just busy insulting me.

When you place a price of -1.00 as his demo indicates while the market is 16, it would be out of Exchange daily limits whether live or demo.
His demo simply telling the rules of the exchange - not rejecting it because the order is price negative.


Matt Z
Optimus Futures

There is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
1 800 771 6748 local 561 367 8686 email [email protected]
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  #500 (permalink)
 
bobwest's Avatar
 bobwest 
Western Florida
Site Moderator
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierra Chart
Trading: ES, YM
Frequency: Several times daily
Duration: Minutes
Posts: 8,162 since Jan 2013
Thanks Given: 57,344
Thanks Received: 26,267


Oh, and one other thing.

Other forums allow rudeness and personal remarks between members. We do not, and the moderator team is absolutely hard-ass on the subject, and will be.

So play by the rules and add to the conversation and we will all benefit. It works a lot better this way.

Thanks.

Bob.

When one door closes, another opens.
-- Cervantes, Don Quixote
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