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DeepDiscountTrading Broker

  #241 (permalink)
Elite Member
@ Germany
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: Mirus Futures/Zen-Fire
Favorite Futures: FDAX
 
Posts: 439 since Nov 2011
Thanks: 253 given, 367 received


Futures Operator View Post
... It is an extremely fast combo, between 6 to 15 seconds ahead of thinkorswim data during active trading sessions on CL. ...

Hi @Futures Operator,

does that mean that your CL bars are 6-15 seconds ahead with SC/TT/DDT? Thats a huge difference. Are there other methods to measure the delay of arriving data? I want to know if ZenFire Feed is also lagging that much. I think it's also an issue where your charting station is based. Do you know where the TOS Servers are based?

Thanks

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  #242 (permalink)
Elite Member
New York, NY
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Chart, thinkorswim
Broker/Data: Amp-Rithmic/TT, IB
Favorite Futures: CL, GC, NQ
 
Posts: 569 since Nov 2010
Thanks: 1,797 given, 249 received


Koepisch View Post
Hi @Futures Operator,

does that mean that your CL bars are 6-15 seconds ahead with SC/TT/DDT? Thats a huge difference. Are there other methods to measure the delay of arriving data? I want to know if ZenFire Feed is also lagging that much. I think it's also an issue where your charting station is based. Do you know where the TOS Servers are based?

Thanks

Yes, that's exactly what I mean, TOS data lagged by many seconds during active/busy/high volume market, which is when I trade, not sure about during slow markets. On a lightning fast instrument like CL this can mean price being inaccurate in real time by as much as 50 ticks! I experienced this on multiple occasions, along with quite infrequent but still present freezes of data from TOS' end, not on my end, it is just not bullet proof reliable, which is important to me. The easiest method I found for data speed comparison was just to compare Time&Sales windows, and DOM's, side by side. To be even more accurate, you could record video of this, and review afterwards while pausing to compare prints/times and when how long one takes to catch up to the other. If you really want to get technical, you could set up continously running ping tests to each data server as well, not sure if that would reflect delays in real-time price prints though.

Not sure where TOS servers are based, but if you research, the concensus seems to be that they are not the fastest at delivering intraday futures data real-time, but fine for longer term charts, I still use them for backup data/live pit audio.

Additionally, I also found TT more stable/reliable than Rithmic with less issues, and it also has ICE data for DX, Brent, etc, which Rithmic does not. This was also the concensus I received from independent engineers who work with it every day along with the other feeds, and don't have a bias towards one or another. Last, the cost is also less, for what is actually the better feed, in my experience. I recommend everyone to do their own indepdendent testing for their needs though.

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  #243 (permalink)
Elite Member
Haifa Israel
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: sierra chart
Broker/Data: Optimus Trading Group/Rithmic
Favorite Futures: es
 
Posts: 90 since Apr 2012
Thanks: 49 given, 65 received


Hi @Futures Operator,

My experience with Rithmic and Sierra Chart is flawless so far (about one year ) . I Never experienced any connection problems (except during weekend maintenance). Did you manage to find out what was the cause of the problems you had ? Was it the PC? the Feed? The Internet connection?

As to TT, I don't know much about them but I do know that if you want precise Tick-by-Tick bid/ask data then TT will not serve you well while Rithmic was shown to provide a 100% similarity to DTNIQ bid/ask data. Take a look at this thread from the SC support board - https://www.sierrachart.com/supportboard/showthread.php?t=42100

I never checked it myself but Rithmic is known to be very good when it comes to Speed/Latency. Did you find TT to be faster ?


Last edited by yonatan; June 1st, 2013 at 09:47 AM.
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  #244 (permalink)
Elite Member
Tel Aviv, Israel
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Chart
Favorite Futures: CL
 
Ticks Collector's Avatar
 
Posts: 11 since Apr 2011
Thanks: 0 given, 16 received

Hi There,

Since you guys agonize about data speed/latency/etc, I assume you scalp. other wise for swing even TOS is enough.
If you scalp, you need accurate Tick and Volume and Bid/Ask data for analysis.
If you're using TT, you don't get any of that. not that its 99.99% accurate... it's not even half way to be decent for scalping. don't take my word for it, do your own checks.

As for data speed, you need to make sure you compare apples with apples.
It's a different story if you live in North America, or in EU, or in the Middle East (like me) or in Asia or in Australia etc...
Where ever you live, you need to make sure your whole setup is built for performance.
For example I'm using SC/Rithmic setup via Optimus and I can tell you that not once and not twice I got data plotted in my charts, in Israel, before friends of mine got their charts plotted with TOS in Chicago!!!

Keep in mind that TOS is java based while SC is C++ code.
That alone can give 1-2 seconds of latency when market picks up speed.
It could be even more if your PC is not a current crop beast (which it should be anyway).
Also TOS is aggregated and Rithmic is unfiltered tick accurate which means TOS will wait at least for the last buffer to fill before sending data while Rithmic will make best effort to send data the moment there is a new tick.

Guys, nothing is perfect in life.
Make sure to compare different ISPs since maybe a feed provider will have better IP routing path to ISP_A than ISP_B. this is something that you as end users have no control over it.
I can share with you that until a year and a half ago Israel had only a single fiber connection to the internet.
I was getting pings to Rithmic's POP ranging between 190-280ms and sometimes odd ones of +350ms
Since then we had 2 more fiber loops added and now I get a constant stable 165ms pings.

Sure it's not even close to the sub 30ms my american friends enjoy, but luckily TOS is so popular at their end that my unfiltered Rithmic/SC setup fills the gap to their TOS setup
And my data is unfiltered

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  #245 (permalink)
Elite Member
Georgia, US
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: Various
Favorite Futures: Various
 
josh's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,898 since Jan 2011
Thanks: 5,143 given, 11,239 received


Ticks Collector View Post
Since you guys agonize about data speed/latency/etc, I assume you scalp. other wise for swing even TOS is enough.
If you scalp, you need accurate Tick and Volume and Bid/Ask data for analysis.
If you're using TT, you don't get any of that. not that its 99.99% accurate... it's not even half way to be decent for scalping. don't take my word for it, do your own checks.

Sure it's not even close to the sub 30ms my american friends enjoy, but luckily TOS is so popular at their end that my unfiltered Rithmic/SC setup fills the gap to their TOS setup
And my data is unfiltered

TT does not have accurate bid/ask, but a large majority of traders who are scalping use XTrader, and XTrader pretty much dominates even to this day exchange floors, so you might reconsider the view that "[TT] is not even half way to be decent for scalping." If viewing the prints themselves and knowing the bid/ask are important, then TT is definitely not the answer. But some people do not require that, so it would be fine.

Your assumption that those of us who agonize about latency and speed are scalpers is not an assumption that will hold true in many cases. I suppose it depends on how you define scalping. I am usually looking for between 12 and 30 ES ticks per contract, so I am certainly not a scalper, but not swinging either. When it comes to reading the market, most traders tend to look at the past, whether it's the past 2 hours of the day, or whatever. However, sentiment and mood can change quickly, and unfortunately a standard chart simply cannot show this like the order book and tape can, and this is where I require speed and low latency. Having a lagging data feed totally obscures the velocity, aggressiveness, and overall mood of the market. Viewing the order book is viewing what the market actually is; charts show very useful supporting information, but only by viewing depth and prints can I truly get a feel for current sentiment to best predict what's coming up in the near term, which is usually part of a larger overall market view and goes much farther than the near term.

So, even though I am not scalping for ticks, having a data feed that has close to no latency (and having a fast platform in SC, as you mention) delivers a very true picture of what the market is really doing, and is critical for me in making decisions regarding short-term order flow, which is part of an overall bigger picture and can have a huge effect on the direction of the market for a much longer period of time than most people realize.

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  #246 (permalink)
Elite Member
Tel Aviv, Israel
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Chart
Favorite Futures: CL
 
Ticks Collector's Avatar
 
Posts: 11 since Apr 2011
Thanks: 0 given, 16 received

Hey Josh

Few remarks.

1.
"TT does not have accurate bid/ask, but a large majority of traders who are scalping use XTrader"
That's like saying yea I know that gasoline is polluting and unhealthy, but a large majority or car drivers who drive for their livelihood do it with gasoline cars.
Driving cars doesn't crown gasoline as being environmentally friendly, same as using XTrader doesn't crown TT's feed as being something special.
Personally? I tend to first avoid, or at least doubt, anything that the "majority" agrees on.
The human herd mentality is the basis of many ills in our world
With that said, there could be many reasons why XTrader is popular (so I read. I never saw REAL user numbers. have you seen real numbers?).
It's a very mature piece of software, been around a long time. it offers many features that complement the needs of bigger traders like trading multiple accounts, its used a lot with spread traders and have many features that 99.8% of retail traders have no need for.
For example Rithmic added to their R|Trader an Iceberg order feature just recently and not long ago they added Drip order type, which meant that if you had to have any of those you had to use something else... like XTrader maybe? that means you had to use TT's feed maybe?
(btw, R|Trader is free)
Add to this that they have some patent on the static DOM ladder (even though TS and SC offer it as well) and you get many reasons why it got to be a common tool around desks and firms.

But, can you use XTrader with any data feed other than TT's?
Apparently not.
Can you drive a gasoline car without gasoline?
Apparently not.
Is gasoline clean and healthy just because it powers the so regarded internal combustion chamber engine car? nope.
Is TT's data feed top notch just because it powers the regarded XTrader? in your own words "TT does not have accurate bid/ask".
End of story


2.
Yup, in my book you're a scalper. human scalper.
2-3 handles is the noise factor of ES, or in the words of FT71, the first deviation of the Harmonic Rotation (love that name!) of ES.
7 handles can also be called scalping. not hyper scalping but still scalping since you use the same technics to get that target as you do for 2-3 handles.
True, "sentiment and mood can change quickly", but only scalpers look on that aspect which brings us to square one that only scalpers have a reason to agonize over low latency, accurate bid/ask etc.
Swingers trade setups that from the get go are meant to eliminate all those fast "sentiment and mood" changes.
"get a feel for current sentiment"?
Yup, you are a scalper.

3.
The "agonizing" bit wasn't an insult or a joke on anyone's expense, it only meant that if ppl trade very long setups for them it's just a waste of time to peruse this matter with vengeance
If you take your trades based on 240min bars, what the hell do you even have to look on market depth or use unfiltered tick data?
"get a feel for current sentiment"?
Sorry to inform you, you ARE a scalper


Last edited by Ticks Collector; June 2nd, 2013 at 09:25 AM.
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  #247 (permalink)
Elite Member
Georgia, US
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: Various
Favorite Futures: Various
 
josh's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,898 since Jan 2011
Thanks: 5,143 given, 11,239 received

Neither my risk profile (nowhere near the size a scalper needs to trade), nor time spent in trades (mine, about an hour, a scalper, 5 to 300 seconds), nor size of W/L per contract traded (mine, a few ES points, a scalper, 1 to 8 ticks max), nor number of trades per day (mine, 3 to 6, a scalper, 50 to 200) even remotely approach what those numbers would be for a real scalper. I scale into trades pretty often; a scalper would never dream of it.

Since you are a fan of FT71's information, it might be interesting for you to know in this past week's AMA (at the 9 minute mark here) he specifically said "I am a short term trader; I am not a scalper...I do scalp around positions, but I am mainly looking at what is going to happen in the next hour or so in general" -- yet his first scale out is 2 ES handles. Perhaps you should join the next AMA and try to convince him that he is in fact a scalper, as you are doing with me now.

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  #248 (permalink)
 Vendor: www.traderwerks.com 
Taipei Taiwan
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: Optimus
Favorite Futures: TW
 
Posts: 693 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 440 given, 440 received


josh View Post
Neither my risk profile (nowhere near the size a scalper needs to trade), nor time spent in trades (mine, about an hour, a scalper, 5 to 300 seconds), nor size of W/L per contract traded (mine, a few ES points, a scalper, 1 to 8 ticks max), nor number of trades per day (mine, 3 to 6, a scalper, 50 to 200) even remotely approach what those numbers would be for a real scalper. I scale into trades pretty often; a scalper would never dream of it.

Since you are a fan of FT71's information, it might be interesting for you to know in this past week's AMA (at the 9 minute mark here) he specifically said "I am a short term trader; I am not a scalper...I do scalp around positions, but I am mainly looking at what is going to happen in the next hour or so in general" -- yet his first scale out is 2 ES handles. Perhaps you should join the next AMA and try to convince him that he is in fact a scalper, as you are doing with me now.

Hi @josh. I think what @Ticks Collector said was his opinion and a he was getting off topic anyway. Just best to add him to you ignore list and just move alone.

If you are happy with your trading, that who cares what it is called?

Math. A gateway drug to reality.
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  #249 (permalink)
Site Administrator
Manta, Ecuador
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: My own custom solution
Favorite Futures: E-mini ES S&P 500
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 46,237 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 29,350 given, 83,148 received

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  #250 (permalink)
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josh View Post
TT does not have accurate bid/ask, but a large majority of traders who are scalping use XTrader, and XTrader pretty much dominates even to this day exchange floors, so you might reconsider the view that "[TT] is not even half way to be decent for scalping." If viewing the prints themselves and knowing the bid/ask are important, then TT is definitely not the answer. But some people do not require that, so it would be fine.

Your assumption that those of us who agonize about latency and speed are scalpers is not an assumption that will hold true in many cases. I suppose it depends on how you define scalping. I am usually looking for between 12 and 30 ES ticks per contract, so I am certainly not a scalper, but not swinging either. When it comes to reading the market, most traders tend to look at the past, whether it's the past 2 hours of the day, or whatever. However, sentiment and mood can change quickly, and unfortunately a standard chart simply cannot show this like the order book and tape can, and this is where I require speed and low latency. Having a lagging data feed totally obscures the velocity, aggressiveness, and overall mood of the market. Viewing the order book is viewing what the market actually is; charts show very useful supporting information, but only by viewing depth and prints can I truly get a feel for current sentiment to best predict what's coming up in the near term, which is usually part of a larger overall market view and goes much farther than the near term.

So, even though I am not scalping for ticks, having a data feed that has close to no latency (and having a fast platform in SC, as you mention) delivers a very true picture of what the market is really doing, and is critical for me in making decisions regarding short-term order flow, which is part of an overall bigger picture and can have a huge effect on the direction of the market for a much longer period of time than most people realize.

Hi josh,

I saw that DDT also offer other data feed for SC. Since you said TT does not have accurate bid/ask data maybe Rithmic is a better option even if it cost more.

Thanks.

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