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Dorman Complaint
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Dorman Complaint

  #11 (permalink)
Elite Member
San Diego, CA
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: NT
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
wilson619's Avatar
 
Posts: 64 since Jun 2010
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arbitration

consider going to arbitration ....

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  #12 (permalink)
Elite Member
Chicago, IL
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: NT8,NT7,TWS,FOREX.COM app
Broker/Data: InteractiveBrokers, NinjaTrader Brokerage FOREX.COM, IQFeed
Favorite Futures: The one I'm creating in the present....ES, ZF, ZN, ZB, FX pairs
 
Blash's Avatar
 
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LightWeight View Post
Just thought I would put it out there that due to a statement error made by Dorman, I ended up losing about $1500 on an open position that I thought was flat. The problem began when a long trade I made on the TF was not recorded or entered properly by Dorman into my statement, and when the trade was stopped out later, they recorded THAT entry as my first trade. I had a total of 4 trades made before market close which should have offset, but according to Dorman I was still short on my statement, causing me to be considered as in an overnight position, and booking an $1100 loss on the previous trades, which they had erroneously recorded.

I didn't notice the problem until I made another TF buy that evening in the overnight session, and noticed that instead of being in market and long, my account was showing as being flat. Both Ninjatrader's position tab in the control center, as well as R-Trader, showed me as being offset and flat, with no active trades or positions in the TF. That was when I noticed my account balance was over a grand less than I expected, and I checked my statement to see that they hadn't recorded the very first long trade I'd made in the previous session.

Dorman does not have an overnight desk, so I couldn't call to confirm my position, and made the mistake of assuming that Ninjatrader, R-Trader, and my Dorman account statement must be correct, and my execution log was wrong -- or the first trade had simply not been cleared or gone into effect. As such I assumed I was indeed flat as everything showed, and I emailed all of this information to my IB, Progressive Trading Group, with a concern about the errors and that I may still be in the market, but I didn't want to enter a short trade just in case I was, which WOULD have shown me as being in position AND naked in both Ninja and R-Trader.

Well long story short, when they finally sorted the mess out, which involved actually contacting the ICE to confirm whether I was still in or not (they told me at first that I WAS flat, and Ninja and R-Trader were correct), they discovered I was indeed long and naked still -- and by this time the TF had gone down 15 points. Not wanting to take any more risk I had to place a sell order to close the position out and book the loss.

Progressive and Dorman are putting all of this back on me of course, saying that because I saw I had an odd number of trades, I should have known I was long, despite what every other piece of information was telling me. Having not been through this before, I was under the impression that if anything my Ninja log would be incorrect, and the statements and both platform positions would be accurate, but I guess now I know. Although frankly, I find it not to hard to imagine the opposite scenario, one in which my log DID show a trade that never went through, and they would then be saying I should have known I was flat because of my statement and platform positions, in spite of what my log said....

At any rate my beef here is that Dorman improperly recorded my trades on my statement and then booked a loss to my account because of that, as well as putting me in a trade overnight, and then that also caused both of my available platforms to show an incorrect account position. Had I known for sure I was still in market I obviously would have never stayed in that long and would have closed out immediately. The bitter irony here of course is that had the market gone UP 15 points, I would have made a nice profit from the error -- but that's never the way these things work, is it?

I am also wondering if all of this is any sort of grounds for an NFA or CFTC complaint, I'm not familiar with this process and I can't find much info on whether this is or is not such a case. Dorman and PTG apparently consider this a closed issue with a simple "oops" on their end, and that at the end of the day it's my fault for not knowing my actual position in spite of all their reporting, and that there is inherent risk in trading, etc. While that may be true, it's hard to know your exact position when three other sources are all telling you the opposite and you have no way to confirm outside of them at the time. I've also been with Dorman for only a short period of time and find it pretty alarming to already encounter an error like this, when I've never seen such an error from the other brokers I've been with in the past. PTG is telling me they've never seen this issue with Dorman before (and that I wasn't the only one this happened to that day), but that doesn't put the $1500 loss back in my account or give me much confidence going forward.

I had a Dorman account thru S5T as a intro broker. All was fine. I now have IB. I have seen in Ninja as the account is selected, actually with any other program too, you click in a drop down list and pick a choice. and then move mouse away. But you don't yet click on something else but you roll the center wheel. Bam you just changed the choice you made a few seconds ago. Did you catch it and put it back? Or did it go unnoticed? So..... you just put your platform into your live account, great! But a second later you changed it back to sim and failed to know it. You took a trade..... now you might have a whole bunch of issues like described above....not even realizing it.

Probabilities say the rookie made the mistake NOT the well established brokerage house.....IMHO....

Ron

It is an axiomatic fact that while you meditate you are speaking with your own spirit. In that state of mind you put certain questions to your spirit and the spirit answers: the light breaks forth and the reality is revealed.
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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  #13 (permalink)
Elite Member
Toronto Canada
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
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mmaker's Avatar
 
Posts: 353 since Feb 2011
Thanks: 1,169 given, 393 received

As an aside...


What is really fun is seeing you are live in the market with an active order bobbing up and down..adding to and subtracting from your P&L. Where did this come from....lets cancel that sucker right away.

Well it won't cancel! No matter how many times you hit the cancel button - it stays there.

We are having fun now.

Ok so it is a long order - ok short it. That should do it. Nope.

For a couple of minutes - complete terror entering orders and cancelling them - a comedy worthy of a darwin award on youtube.

Then i realized i was trying to use live orders to get rid of a SIM ORDER.

A mistake never to be repeated. Ninjatrader needs to make SIM not so real.

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  #14 (permalink)
Elite Member
Chicago, IL
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: NT8,NT7,TWS,FOREX.COM app
Broker/Data: InteractiveBrokers, NinjaTrader Brokerage FOREX.COM, IQFeed
Favorite Futures: The one I'm creating in the present....ES, ZF, ZN, ZB, FX pairs
 
Blash's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,545 since Nov 2011
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How about this fear that was born when I started this trading thang...7-8 years ago.. I thought I was so start I could "scalp" (I called it) CIT stock I think it was but I might be wrong all I know is it was way under a dollar like $0.18 or something. So I had a great idea...lol.... I would trade 11,000 shares. This stock was bouncing up and down maybe 3 to 5 cent all day so I just wanted $0.03 and make $330. Well what ever I did I got in and out in less than 1 second. And stood there in complete astonishment as to what happened. Had zero clue and still don't. But it was all me. Extremely difficult to cleanses that fear from myself to this day. Only thing that helps is FIO. You all.

I also tried that trade again and lost $330 and quit toying with that idea licking my wounds. I should add a day or two before this I told my wife I was going to buy her a BMW X6 like this..as I whipped out its brochure.....lol

Ron


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It is an axiomatic fact that while you meditate you are speaking with your own spirit. In that state of mind you put certain questions to your spirit and the spirit answers: the light breaks forth and the reality is revealed.
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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  #15 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Boca Raton
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Variety
Broker/Data: Optimus Futures, LLC
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
mattz's Avatar
 
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Someone PM'd me about this thread to throw my 2 cents. So here it is:
You need to know where you stand as far as your trades, and you can not rely on your platforms at all times.
Sadly, technology is not perfect, and there could be a myriad of errors that can occur that while you trade where you could be off on long/short/flat.

Over the years, I have advocated a number of solutions that could be helpful:
1) If for example you use a platform that uses the Rithmic API, have R Trader open.
It has a window called "Recent Trades" that will confirm your trades with a ticket # and when it was sent to the exchange.
If you sent an order on Let's say Sierra, and it does not appear on the R Trader, you may have a reason to investigate.

2) You can ask your broker how is your platform integrated with the back office and how fast does it update. There is a thing called prelim, and this is where your trades may flow throughout the day.

3) Find out how your platform's M2M (Mark to Market) performs at the end of day. I will give CQG lots of credit here, and again you can use CQG Trader to enter your trades because they have a really good way to show balances and positions. They accuracy so far is impressive. You nay have to pay an additional $10 for an extra feed but it's well worth it.

4) Keep manual track. Yes, the old +1/-1. Because it helps.

All of the above will help you, but if you are not an organized person and do not have a plan to keep track, then nothing will help you and you are prone to run into a big error.

The comment made earlier that a platform should have better visibility when it's in sim is ridiculous!! If you don't know if you are in real or sim, consider twice whether you should trade or play lego. The same people do not know their user ID, because they have entered it years ago and now it's just "there".

Guys, stay organized and know the advantages and disadvantages of your platforms and their corresponding technologies. If something heaven forbid happens, you can minimize the damage by being prepared.

Matt Z
Optimus Futures

There is a risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.
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  #16 (permalink)
Elite Member
Toronto Canada
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninjatrader
Favorite Futures: es
 
mmaker's Avatar
 
Posts: 353 since Feb 2011
Thanks: 1,169 given, 393 received

Yup i have done some pretty naive things.

I too bought illiquid stock in the morning at 60 cents. Sold it later in the day at 90 cents when i saw it was up. When i discussed it with my broker the next day (back when we all used brokers) he said my buying drove the stock up (prolly on 500-1000 shares) lol. I was a small retail trader and probably the youngest of his customers.

Then there was the time when i started daytrading, I lost about $9k in 9 seconds. I think that one was called vrts and if i remember correctly i thought i was gonna teach the market a lesson. LOLOL

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  #17 (permalink)
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Futures Experience: Intermediate
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mattz View Post

The comment made earlier that a platform should have better visibility when it's in sim is ridiculous!! If you don't know if you are in real or sim, consider twice whether you should trade or play lego. The same people do not know their user ID, because they have entered it years ago and now it's just "there".

Guys, stay organized and know the advantages and disadvantages of your platforms and their corresponding technologies. If something heaven forbid happens, you can minimize the damage by being prepared.

Matt Z
Optimus Futures

There is a risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

Ummmm....are you insulting me or you just never had the pleasure of trading live with Ninja?

I am not the only user who has been caught in this issue.

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  #18 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Boca Raton
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Variety
Broker/Data: Optimus Futures, LLC
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
mattz's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,040 since Sep 2010
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mmaker View Post
Ummmm....are you insulting me or you just never had the pleasure of trading live with Ninja?

I am not the only user who has been caught in this issue.

Prior to NT becoming a brokerage, I supported it for about 5 years.
In fact, I had one of the most comprehensive video libraries on YouTube for NT, 20 technical usage blog entries, etc.
Further, I was one of the first IBs to develop my own engine of Rithmic demos for NT.
All This removed at their request when they became a brokerage.
So to answer your questions, yes, I know it well.
We at Optimus try really hard to learn each software we carry.

My comments were not meant to insult you. I just care about the fact that if you come to to the markets and risk your capital, you should not "feed" the pros rather be careful, diligent, organized and always know where you stand. No one has endless amounts of risk capital and so I just want you to be careful. I am direct person and have always been like that as a broker. My tone may not be "nice" at times, but I truly respect traders and help as much as I can.

Matt Z
Optimus Futures

There is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.
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  #19 (permalink)
Elite Member
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Futures Experience: None
Platform: NT8,NT7,TWS,FOREX.COM app
Broker/Data: InteractiveBrokers, NinjaTrader Brokerage FOREX.COM, IQFeed
Favorite Futures: The one I'm creating in the present....ES, ZF, ZN, ZB, FX pairs
 
Blash's Avatar
 
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mattz View Post

The comment made earlier that a platform should have better visibility when it's in sim is ridiculous!! If you don't know if you are in real or sim, consider twice whether you should trade or play lego. The same people do not know their user ID, because they have entered it years ago and now it's just "there".





Matt Z

Optimus Futures



There is a risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.



We love Lego. Keep them in business....
Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).
.

Wife and mines on the right..... It's a Bank.... Yep...lol

Ron

It is an axiomatic fact that while you meditate you are speaking with your own spirit. In that state of mind you put certain questions to your spirit and the spirit answers: the light breaks forth and the reality is revealed.
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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  #20 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Boca Raton
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Variety
Broker/Data: Optimus Futures, LLC
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
mattz's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,040 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 1,920 given, 2,753 received
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Blash View Post
....
Wife and mines on the right..... It's a Bank.... Yep...lol

Ron

Too funny! Way too funny! LOL

M

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.
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