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Can you open an account with $3000? and start trading the ES
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Can you open an account with $3000? and start trading the ES

  #21 (permalink)
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sptrader View Post
*********************************************************************************

** Pilots learn to fly with simulators , so why shouldn't traders ?? both crash and burn, if they fail..
My point was, if you can't make money in Sim trading , you shouldn't try trading with real money...

while I don't equate death with losing money, I won't argue with the logic of your latter stement

that being said...

success on sim in no way guarantees you are going to be successful trading live, nor in any way, is it an accurate proxy for trading live

its largely an invention of the retail brokerage industry;

created to enlist inexperienced, risk averse, and under capitalized people into the world of trading


Last edited by tigertrader; June 23rd, 2013 at 10:39 PM.
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  #22 (permalink)
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tigertrader View Post
while I don't equate death with losing money, I won't argue with the logic of your latter stement

that being said...

success on sim in no way guarantees you are going to be successful trading live, nor in any way, is it an accurate proxy for trading live

its largely an invention of the retail brokerage industry to enlist inexperienced, risk averse, and under capitalized people into trading

I can drive a McLaren F1 like a boss in Gran Turismo on PS3. But on a real course I doubt the same would be true

Sent from my Nexus 4

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  #23 (permalink)
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better way to rephrase the original question


What is the absolute minimum you need to open an account and start day tradingthe ES ?

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  #24 (permalink)
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budfox View Post
What is the absolute minimum you need to open an account and start day tradingthe ES ?

If you just want to "trade" until you blow your account, there are brokers out there that let you do it for a couple thousand probably.

If you want to actually have a chance of succeeding, you need to stop immediately this entire line of thinking and rethink your entire game plan...

Mike

Due to time constraints, please do not PM me if your question can be resolved or answered on the forum.

Need help?
1) Stop changing things. No new indicators, charts, or methods. Be consistent with what is in front of you first.
2) Start a journal and post to it daily with the trades you made to show your strengths and weaknesses.
3) Set goals for yourself to reach daily. Make them about how you trade, not how much money you make.
4) Accept responsibility for your actions. Stop looking elsewhere to explain away poor performance.
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  #25 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
If you just want to "trade" until you blow your account, there are brokers out there that let you do it for a couple thousand probably.

If you want to actually have a chance of succeeding, you need to stop immediately this entire line of thinking and rethink your entire game plan...

Mike

couple thousand?

why does champion futures let you open an account for 1000 then?

I'm just looking to trade one contract......and flatten by 16h00 CDT

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  #26 (permalink)
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budfox View Post
couple thousand?

why does champion futures let you open an account for 1000 then?

I'm just looking to trade one contract......and flatten by 16h00 CDT


Simple answer: Risk of ruin.

With $1000 you have very little wiggle room until you are ruined. You can have a winning strategy, and if you are underfunded, you still may get ruined, just due to random chance.

If you had $2,000, and still traded 1 contract, you odds of survival (assuming you really have a winning strategy) go up a ton.


Here is an example:

Let's say you start with $1,000, and your "ruin" point is $250 (you can't open new trades if you have less than this). You win 50% of the time, and your net wins are $200, and your losses $150. Let's say you take 2 trades per day. A positive expectancy system, generating about $12,500 per year in profits. Pretty good.

In the first year of trading...

Start with $1000, you have a 23% chance of ruin (dropping below $250)

Start with $1500, you have a 10% chance of ruin (dropping below $250)

Start with over $2500, you have less than a 1% chance of ruin (dropping below $250)


That is why undercapitalization kills many new traders. They can't handle the inevitable drawdowns.

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  #27 (permalink)
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kevinkdog View Post
Let's say you start with $1,000, and your "ruin" point is $250 (you can't open new trades if you have less than this). You win 50% of the time, and your net wins are $200, and your losses $150. Let's say you take 2 trades per day. A positive expectancy system, generating about $12,500 per year in profits. Pretty good.

The risk of ruin is closer to 100% for someone that doesn't know what they are doing and that wants $500 or $1000 accounts.

Now what they do after they ruined is up for debate, perhaps they will learn from it... but I think most don't unfortunately.

The better question is why does this person want such a tiny account? Is it because they think they can turn that tiny account into something of value? Or do they really have a very large discretionary income and simply know that they will almost certainly lose all their money up front, and want to start small to begin the learning process?

Unfortunately I believe from experience the answer is usually the former.

Mike

Due to time constraints, please do not PM me if your question can be resolved or answered on the forum.

Need help?
1) Stop changing things. No new indicators, charts, or methods. Be consistent with what is in front of you first.
2) Start a journal and post to it daily with the trades you made to show your strengths and weaknesses.
3) Set goals for yourself to reach daily. Make them about how you trade, not how much money you make.
4) Accept responsibility for your actions. Stop looking elsewhere to explain away poor performance.
5) Where to start as a trader? Watch this webinar and read this thread for hundreds of questions and answers.
6)
Help using the forum? Watch this video to learn general tips on using the site.

If you want
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  #28 (permalink)
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When I joined this forum I didn't even have a sim account--My only experience was long term stock investing. I read all the threads about the various aspects MM, RR, psychology. They made sense and it all seemed like great advice but--

None of it really sunk in until I experienced it first hand.

So I think if budfox wants to risk $1000 trading ES - maybe money well spent

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  #29 (permalink)
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Im a beginner also, I loose my 5000$ account, after being a winner during 3 months in SIM. I've never felt that feeling in my stomach and my back and it also hurts me. I had really pain in my back during the next 2 months because my nerves. You can not understand why can win in SIM, and then REAL blow your account.

You need to feel this, better with a small account, though. But prepare yourself at SIM and had to know you will lose your money. Trading is like that, learn about theese feelings and maybe with 1 or 2 years more after loosing your account training simulated you can try again with a bigger account, 5000 or 10000$. Who knows, if we prepare well and fight again exciting and could be more patience will be winners some time...

Cheers

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  #30 (permalink)
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noyss View Post
Im a beginner also, I loose my 5000$ account, after being a winner during 3 months in SIM. I've never felt that feeling in my stomach and my back and it also hurts me. I had really pain in my back during the next 2 months because my nerves. You can not understand why can win in SIM, and then REAL blow your account.

You need to feel this, better with a small account, though. But prepare yourself at SIM and had to know you will lose your money. Trading is like that, learn about theese feelings and maybe with 1 or 2 years more after loosing your account training simulated you can try again with a bigger account, 5000 or 10000$. Who knows, if we prepare well and fight again exciting and could be more patience will be winners some time...

Cheers

WOW sorry to hear that

i went through a very stressful period when I started live trading also-- i would enter a trade and I would have to get up and leave my pc--i couldn't watch it--i would go do situps--brush my teeth-- I'd be in the shower and I would hear-"stop filled" those were bad days---im over that now- so i trade mostly in sim but i do take live trades and can sit there without issue--why? risk management -- and I guess some stress management

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