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PFGBest Accounts Frozen (PFG scandal big thread)
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PFGBest Accounts Frozen (PFG scandal big thread)

  #501 (permalink)
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It is mind blowing that the regulators never picked up a phone to talk to anybody at the bank or have a procedure to confirm account balances or even confirmed bank mailing addresses...and to go on for 20 years!!!!

one fo the suckers.....

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  #502 (permalink)
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djkiwi View Post
@brevco, I think it is important to note the MF Global and PFG situations are entirely different beasts. Bear in mind MFGlobal used client funds to collateralize a massively leveraged $6b sovereign debt bet caused by a new CEO who wanted to turn MF Global into an investment bank.

They took advantage of legal re-hypothecation rules to use client funds to back the broker's own trades and borrowing. It was in the agreements clients signed with MF-Global. That is why nobody went to jail from MF Global. This loophole needs to be closed. My understanding is the brokerage borrowing rules allow firms to use client money to buy assets in their own name. Goldman and many other investment banks have been doing this for years so using an investment bank as your broker may not be a good idea.

So with MF Global you had money transferred to various institutions (such as $600m to JP Morgan) that could potentially be clawed back plus I assume liquidations of the sovereign debt position in itself. In other words at the time of liquidation the liquidator knew there were assets to recover.

PFG

With PFG it was blatant theft of client funds with what appears to be minimal assets to recover. The offer from CRT may appear to be generous in light of this as the risk of recovery appears to be much lower than MF Global. The lawsuits could keep this going for 5+ years . This is no different to any distressed debt sale situation. The price is generally low and then increases if more assets will be recovered than first thought.

Cheers
DJ


Yes, I understand now. About a year ago I started to open an account with AMP. I actually read the entire agreement and had a question about something I read regarding AMP using customer funds. I didn't understand it so when I spoke to the broker he still didn't explain it well enough and said it was "standard practice" in the industry. I still wasn't satisfied so I never completed the application to fund the account. Now, I am reading more as I follow this thread and various articles, as well as the NFA and CFTC websites. It's like trying to read the manual that comes with a new car! I find the car manual not only easier to understand, but more interesting as well!

Now that I'm researching other brokers, I'm looking for one that does not prop trade. And if a broker can't answer questions to my satisfaction....I move on to the next one. I expect customer service reps and brokers to understand and answer questions about how their firm operates.

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  #503 (permalink)
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olobay View Post
I don't care what people write in a forum or what reporters write in their articles about the potential return of customer funds. I would rather believe James Koutoulas from the Commodity Customer Coalition, who helped MFGlobal customers get 80% back and who has said he will do the same for PFG customers. And in the interview on CFRN which I posted, he said that after having spoken with PFG employees, he believes that only with the frozen assets already in PFG accounts, we should expect to get anywhere from 55% - 70% of our funds returned. CRT Capital would not offer to buy debt for 20 - 25 cents on the dollar if they didn't think they could collect at least double from PFG.

I have a friend who was with MF Global and I just heard he received 70% of his funds back. I'm happy for him! To avoid anymore "anguish" I've just told myself not to expect anything back. If I get a check in the mail, then I will accept it and be pleasantly surprised.

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  #504 (permalink)
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olobay View Post
I don't care what people write in a forum or what reporters write in their articles about the potential return of customer funds. I would rather believe James Koutoulas from the Commodity Customer Coalition, who helped MFGlobal customers get 80% back and who has said he will do the same for PFG customers. And in the interview on CFRN which I posted, he said that after having spoken with PFG employees, he believes that only with the frozen assets already in PFG accounts, we should expect to get anywhere from 55% - 70% of our funds returned. CRT Capital would not offer to buy debt for 20 - 25 cents on the dollar if they didn't think they could collect at least double from PFG.

@olobay

I sincerely hope you guys get 80% + back. It's a fair point you make, the total funds were supposed to be $400m and the segregated funds were $200m so where is the other $200m?

So I'm guessing the other $200m was tied up in initial and overnight margin so once these positions were/are liquidated went back into the pot for distribution.

At least there is a 20-25% offer on the table meaning as a minimum people will recover something. I don't blame CRT though as there are many unknowns. If people don't like the offer they don't need to accept it. As more positive information comes available it is likely this offer will be increased or other parties will step in and offer more.

Robin Hood type characters such as James Koutoulas can say whatever they like. At the end of the day all that matters is the market value of the assets the liquidator can recover....


Cheers
DJ

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  #505 (permalink)
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Cigarist View Post
He will never get out for the remainder of his natural life that's for sure But what's the point? Hes already so old. I really think they should bring back the death penalty for financial crimes of this magnitude.


I've often wondered about the death penalty. For his crime, it would be the easy way out....he attempted his own life so he wouldn't have to live through the disgrace and humiliation of what he did. He lived well on our money. He should pay for his crime by being forced to do without for the rest of his life.....no more fine cars, planes, suits, entertainment, wine and steaks! He should be behind bars for what he did, but then the taxpayer will have to foot the bill.

Maybe he should be forced to perform some kind of supervised work and earn a regular paycheck . Then a percentage of his earnings would be garnished to pay back what he stole. It would never put a dent in what was lost, but his punishment would be to learn what it is like for the "common" person to have to live with a budget. He would be forced to wear donated clothes and eat hot dogs, hamburger and peanut butter. He would probably attempt suicide again....let him. At least the burden of his upkeep wouldn't be on the taxpayer like Bernie Madoff!

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  #506 (permalink)
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brevco View Post
He would be forced to wear donated clothes and eat hot dogs, hamburger and peanut butter.

50 Million on food coupons and you want to give him a Burger and hot dogs? LOL

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.

Last edited by mattz; July 15th, 2012 at 02:08 PM.
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  #507 (permalink)
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djkiwi View Post
@olobay

I sincerely hope you guys get 80% + back. It's a fair point you make, the total funds were supposed to be $400m and the segregated funds were $200m so where is the other $200m?

So I'm guessing the other $200m was tied up in initial and overnight margin so once these positions were/are liquidated went back into the pot for distribution.

At least there is a 20-25% offer on the table meaning as a minimum people will recover something. I don't blame CRT though as there are many unknowns. If people don't like the offer they don't need to accept it. As more positive information comes available it is likely this offer will be increased or other parties will step in and offer more.

Robin Hood type characters such as James Koutoulas can say whatever they like. At the end of the day all that matters is the market value of the assets the liquidator can recover....


Cheers
DJ

The CCC does all their work pro bono and James Koutoulas said himself that it's still too early to tell what would happen but he seemed to think that PFG customers are in a better position than MFGlobal customers because they froze the assets immediately and because PFG filed Chapter 7 so quickly. At least that was my understanding after having listened to the conference call and his interview on CFRN. I am sure that once they start doing some forensic auditing, they wil be able to trace where the money went and hopefully they will be able to recover some of the missing assets and we will get back close to 100%.

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  #508 (permalink)
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Property transferred to son of Russell Wasendorf, Peregrine Financial Group founder, could be clawed back - NYPOST.com

"In 2008, four years before his Cedar Falls, Iowa, brokerage firm was discovered to be a self-confessed fraud, Russell Wasendorf Sr. started transferring personal assets to his son, The Post has learned."

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  #509 (permalink)
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mattz View Post
50 Million on food coupons and you want to give him a Burger and hot dogs? LOL

No! He'd have to buy his own with what's left out of his paycheck! lol

If he is put behind bars, then we would be paying for his burger and hot dogs. I say let him scrimp and
scrounge to buy his own burger and hot dogs! If he can't afford it, then he can eat peanut
butter or other family members could support him. Under these circumstances, he should not even be
allowed to collect any government benefits or any social security that he would normally qualify for.

I read an article a long time ago about a young man who committed some kind of crime in his community.
This happened in Alaska. The punishment he was given was to live in the wilderness with nothing more than
the clothes on his back and a hunting knife. He would have no contact with family or friends and he was not
allowed to return to his community.

Evidently, some countries/communities/tribes have harsher penalties than death itself.

I just found this article online regarding this type of punishment. I'm not sure if this is the same story I read
because it was so long ago but here it is:

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-07-15/news/mn-15840_1_alaska-indians


Last edited by brevco; July 15th, 2012 at 02:59 PM.
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  #510 (permalink)
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brevco View Post
There is a lot of money to be made in teaching trading courses. I don't know Steve or Curt and as long as I've been with PFG I never took advantage of their courses/education. But, they are probably just as much in shock as everyone else over this mess. They are probably just trying to "stay in the game" and do something to stay busy/involved until they figure out their next step. It is quite possible they might start their own educational program when the dust settles (and charge for it). Or, they might move to another brokerage and take their educational/teaching skills with them. I've taken advantage of "free" education over the years and also spent big $$ for others. Some were good, some were not as good. But for anyone who just lost their job, to be willing to spend their time (possibly without pay), to help others is not a bad thing. I'm sure PFG had some good employees and their lives have been turned upside down too. The action of these two guys (Steve and Curt) speak to their personal integrity and the actions of Wasendorf are not necessarily a reflection of everyone at PFG. (This is just my opinion.)

And, Hedvig, I'm upset over this too. This is the 4th time I've lost money with brokerages over the last 30 years through no fault of my own. Two of those times literally wiped me out so I had to start over more than once. But I appreciate reading the opinions of others, even if I don't necessarily agree with them.

Thank you, Zelek11 for sharing.

--------------------
Good perspective gentlemen; indeed. This issue has I think made me a bit angry at the audacity and utter f*ckery of it all. Crazy and not cool in my opinion.

I guess someone like myself with 27+ years of full-time trading shouldn't spit out my opinions so much from time to time--it does upset me though. I have been fortunate and never have lost money in a broker account.

I do very solid and thorough due diligence and have 7+ brokerage accounts for the 'corporations.' It is an extra-ordinary event & fiscal crisis.

Again, all we can do as moneychangers is keep minimum margins and even if we personally know the owners of brokerages (not the FCM's)~~hey, I guess anything is possible in this day and age.

peace

hedvig

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