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who is liable for a loss due to a software problem ?
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View Poll Results: are They liable ?
yes 2 15.38%
no 11 84.62%
Voters: 13. You may not vote on this poll

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who is liable for a loss due to a software problem ?

  #11 (permalink)
Elite Member
Portland, OR
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: tos
Favorite Futures: NQ, SB, 6J, CL, GC
 
Massive l's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,458 since Mar 2011
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It depends. If your computer sucks than that's all on you.
If you have a legit computer, it should be them.

At the end of the day, it's almost always going to be you.

The best you can do, I've found, is get a few free trades.

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  #12 (permalink)
Fortitudo et Honor
Austin, TX
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: TradeStation
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
Posts: 882 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 128 given, 703 received

Like I said,

The first issue is liability. Are they liable, I'm absolutely positive, that if you pull up the agreement you signed, they have you dead to rights with respect to their hold harmless.

Like I also said, just because you sign something, doesn't mean it's enforceable. A judge can throw something out that's unenforceable. If your landlord has you sign a hold harmless that says he's not responsible for ANYTHING that happens with your rental, and a faulty wiring causes the house to burn down and burn up you and all your stuff....your family could sue him (even though you signed an ironclad agreement saying you understood there was danger and the landlord was not responsible for ANYTHING). That's because the document you signed was unenforceable. A carnival ride operator can put up all the signs and posters he wants and make you sign anything, but if the thing crashes and kills someone, best bet he's gonna see the inside of a courtroom.

Having said all that, the next issue is feasibility.

IF you can somehow prove it's the broker/datafeed/platform's fault, the next issue is the obstacle of getting your money back. The broker has to really weigh giving your money back vs. whatever negative effects they might incur from stiffing you. If you leave, how much money will they lose (have you been paying a lot in commissions). If you convince other people they're crap, how much business will they lose? If you file a complaint with regulatory authorities, how much grief will they receive?

Like I said, they know that unless you combine your efforts with someone else.....it's not worth $15k in legal expenses and evidence investigation to salvage $3k in bad trades. They know this.

Your best bet is to attempt to recoup your losses from them, and if they refuse, to post your findings on places like futures.io (formerly BMT) and find another, more reliable broker/data feed/platform.

When the marketplace begins to reward reliable brokers and punish shoddy brokers (and platforms/datafeeds) then you know capitalist pressures are working properly.

"A dumb man never learns. A smart man learns from his own failure and success. But a wise man learns from the failure and success of others."
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  #13 (permalink)
Elite Member
Chattanooga, Tennessee, USA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: currency futures
 
Posts: 32 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 3 given, 20 received


In my case, I lost money on 7/27 around 10 AM as a result of the CQG/AMP disconnect/reconnect problem.

Based on the thread in this forum about the problem, it appears that the issue was known a day or two before my loss occurred. So don't you think the broker/datafeed company has some responsibility to let their customers know that they are having problems? if i choose to continue trading after i'm aware of the problem then it's on me, but if i'm not even aware of the issue but they are, they have duty to inform, in my opinion.

to add insult to injury, when I called AMP about the problem and determined that i was in a losing trade while the platform told me i was flat, they directed me to Ninjatrader who then wasted time and effort determining the source of a problem AMP already knew about. see Dan's post around 1.5 hours before my problem occurred around 10 am. https://futures.io/brokers-data-feeds/12457-anybody-having-problems-w-amp-cqg-loss-off-connection-5.html

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  #14 (permalink)
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One piece of advice: and this is not broker specific... just make sure you are taking ownership for all of your trading.

For example, if your platform regularly crashes - don't keep using the platform and blame losses on it. If your computer is slow, don't blame losses on it, either get a new computer or stop trading until you do. If your internet connection drops all the time, find a replacement provider and don't blame losses on it.

Likewise, if your broker is giving you trouble, then replace the broker.

Mike

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  #15 (permalink)
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Honolulu, Hawaii
 
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rsmtrade View Post
In my case, I lost money on 7/27 around 10 AM as a result of the CQG/AMP disconnect/reconnect problem.

Based on the thread in this forum about the problem, it appears that the issue was known a day or two before my loss occurred. So don't you think the broker/datafeed company has some responsibility to let their customers know that they are having problems? if i choose to continue trading after i'm aware of the problem then it's on me, but if i'm not even aware of the issue but they are, they have duty to inform, in my opinion.

to add insult to injury, when I called AMP about the problem and determined that i was in a losing trade while the platform told me i was flat, they directed me to Ninjatrader who then wasted time and effort determining the source of a problem AMP already knew about. see Dan's post around 1.5 hours before my problem occurred around 10 am. https://futures.io/brokers-data-feeds/12457-anybody-having-problems-w-amp-cqg-loss-off-connection-5.html

It will take a few minutes to file a complaint. This is the point of the NFA!

File a Complaint

Other than that, it does no good to send out negative vibes.

CFTC keeps the other parts in place, the NFA is a self-policing group that can put down big fines on a FCM and IB.

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  #16 (permalink)
Membership Revoked
Chicago
 
Futures Experience: Master
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: AMP/CQG & Zenfire
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Posts: 40 since Feb 2011
Thanks: 2 given, 17 received

If you ever have any questions or concerns about live trades, orders or positions, immediately call the 24 hour Trade Desk. Their initial function is to provide any information regarding a customers trades.

Program the Trade Desk direct line into speed dial!!! There is no charge for calling the desk to confirm orders or positions.

In my opinion, this is #1 importance when selecting a broker. This is the true support you need when money is on the line.

Here is a brief explanation of Risks Associated with System Failure:

Every trader executing orders electronically has acknowledged reading and understanding the risks associated with trading electronically. Brokerage firms cannot reasonably be expected to guarantee every order as computers and networks are known to be fallible. Outages will occur on several different levels; exchanges will have problems, trading platforms will experience issues, traders' computers and networks will have issues and trading engines will have outages.

The electronic traders' first line of defense is the brokerage firm. The broker is there to help the trader recover from outages with and try to minimize the impact on the account. This is dramatically different from 'traditional' pit brokers as today's brokers no longer fill the orders, they serve as support for the electronic traders that take order placement into their own hands.

Trading on an electronic trading system may differ not only from trading in an open-outcry market but also from trading on other electronic trading systems. If you undertake transactions on an electronic trading system, you will be exposed to risks associated with the system, including the failure of hardware and software. The result of any system failure may be that your order is either not executed according to your instructions or is not executed at all.

Trading through an electronic trading or order routing system exposes you to risks associated with system or component failure. In the event of system or component failure, it is possible that, for a certain time period, you may not be able to enter new orders, execute existing orders, or modify or cancel orders that were previously entered. System or component failure may also result in loss of orders or order priority.


Brokerage firms are unable to eliminate these risk, so we have put in place all the tools - such as the 24 hour trade desk and 24 hour technical support - in order to assist our customers.

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