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What do you do when you want to change everything?
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What do you do when you want to change everything?

  #11 (permalink)
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mindfultrader View Post
To you who have been there, what did you do when you want to change everything to get rid of the pain of failure: start over, buy another system, apply new indicators, change your chart frame, pretend you'll get through it or deny this urge to escape for these emotions and urges by changing things.
I made a big dumb mistake on Friday. Right now it is now 9 am PST Monday morning and I want to change everything and experiment with sim trades - I feel like I can't even read a chart - I want to start over - look for better indicators, a different chart frame (maybe tick charts or even time-based the 1 min maybe?) - it is desperate feeling of frustration, disappointment and embarrassment - need to change things, find a better system - Big Mike suggested not to change anything - good idea except that right now I want to change almost everything - I feel lost as if I have never done this before - been here before - the only difference is I am writing about it and owning it - these feeling really suck and I want to run from them by searching for a better indicator, better chart frame, a book, anything to get me out of this feeling - and I feel alone even though I doubt I am - what am I trading - double tops and bottoms, retracements, abc's? - right now I couldn't tell you.

Sounds like you are losing money so stop trading and stop the bleeding. This is a head game. I don't know a lot about you so hard to advise but happy to help. Are you full time - part time? What is your trading experience. Experience is the key here. How much time do you spend looking at the markets? Burnt out or green?

As far as change. OK - Change it, bend it, stretch it, twist it, look at tick charts, range charts, renko, etc. Swing trade, scalp. Sure look at indicators - all of them. Learn how they are similar - how they are different. This can be a long journey. It's all the same though - just what filter resonates best with you. Big video game - you get to design it. Be creative. Learn what others have done to be successful. Start with the basics. Price is making a new high or coming off of one. What is trend? - whole threads on this one.

Can you afford to trade? Hard question but a real one. Maybe ES is too expensive and is stressing you out. Should you trade smaller?

I watched tick charts for years. The price action is the same but you get to see a whole lot more of it in a shorter period of time. Study, read, read, read. Stare at the markets until you go cross-eyed.

...or maybe you have done all this above already and you just need to relax. Sometimes it takes months for an idea to click. People and beliefs are stubborn. I think your mind works on it subconsciously. I dream about trading - sick I know. Everything is cycles. The time you have spent so far is not wasted. How much time have you spent?

Why do you want to trade? - yeah I know Zen and all.

Make a list of 10 or more well known traders - now go read their story and how they did it. Now realize you don't need to create a Microsoft here. You can make a great living with a lemonade stand if you do it right.
+++++++++++++++++

Joe DiNapoli interview - Futures Trader Joe Dinapoli Faring Well in a Tough Business - Traders Log

“The approach I take to the market is exactly the same–whether I use monthly charts or 5-minute charts. In 1980, I was trading primarily daily charts, and in about 1983 I went down to the 5-minute world.

“I could learn more and develop my approach more quickly in the 5-minute world than on dailies–particularly relative to Fibonacci analysis. So, in the development phase of it, I gained more experience in less time, by trading 5-minute charts.

“I went through this development process by actually trading–not theorizing. I think most good systems should be applicable across timeframes. If they are not, it’s a red flag.”

++++++++++++++++++++++

Just don't risk your very valuable capital on a new setup until you have lived with it for awhile. - I believe this is the jist of what Mike is saying. The chart change or indicator change is NOT the holy grail and if you believe that you will be constantly disappointed. Some people it helps them to know the mechanics. The sum of your experiences is incredibly valuable. So get some more experience... education, tinkering, etc.

Do not spend money on any indicators - holy smokes - there is enough of that stuff on this site for free. 90% of it "better" than any paid indies.

“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.” - Dr. Seuss
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  #12 (permalink)
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I agree with taking time off. It doesn't matter how much you make next month compared to the EV of still trading 10 years from now. I do notice new traders are always in such a rush, it is a guarantee you will still be able to trade in 2030 so take your time. Rushing starting out is just being in a hurry to go broke.

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  #13 (permalink)
Breathe the body deep.
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mindfultrader View Post
To you who have been there, what did you do when you want to change everything to get rid of the pain of failure: start over, buy another system, apply new indicators, change your chart frame, pretend you'll get through it or deny this urge to escape for these emotions and urges by changing things.
I made a big dumb mistake on Friday. Right now it is now 9 am PST Monday morning and I want to change everything and experiment with sim trades - I feel like I can't even read a chart - I want to start over - look for better indicators, a different chart frame (maybe tick charts or even time-based the 1 min maybe?) - it is desperate feeling of frustration, disappointment and embarrassment - need to change things, find a better system - Big Mike suggested not to change anything - good idea except that right now I want to change almost everything - I feel lost as if I have never done this before - been here before - the only difference is I am writing about it and owning it - these feeling really suck and I want to run from them by searching for a better indicator, better chart frame, a book, anything to get me out of this feeling - and I feel alone even though I doubt I am - what am I trading - double tops and bottoms, retracements, abc's? - right now I couldn't tell you.


I feel your pain deep within my bones! I, and I'm sure almost everyone else, has been there. I still suffer from this at times but I'm working on it. It's getting easier and easier to stay on the right path. Not easy, just easier. But takes time.

What's helped me is to...

1) Figure out what my strengths and weaknesses are. Both as a trader and in everyday life.
2) Figure out what I enjoy doing and what I hate doing. Both as a trader and in everyday life.
3) Brainstorm an outline for trading that plays favorably to my answers to 1 and 2.
4) Find a base method of someone who appears to be a legit successful trader and who's method meshes with the ideas from the brainstorm in 3 (not easy!)
5) Using the info from 3 and 4, create a trading plan and rules.
6) Test it. Consistently. Over and over. And observe price. Does it do what I expect it to do? What else does it do? When does it do it? Are there ways to exploit it that play to my strengths? Observe myself. How am I feeling when I trade? What level do I need to be at to trade well? Am I at that level now?
7) Make improvements based on my answers to 6.
8) Repeat 6 and 7.

I've strayed a few times, but like I mentioned, it's getting easier to stay correct.

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  #14 (permalink)
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Maybe many will disagree with me, but I think that change is always necessary. But, sometimes one can apply only small changes like changing monitors, changing the configuration of sitting, or sometimes read a new book about what I am struggling with, like some traders have recommended. If you need to change your method, it’s ok, go for it…but don’t view this change as extreme in your mind, rather think of it as a small step towards a positive outcome.

The way traders view their life is via their P&L (profit and loss) where you could also view it as productive versus not productive. Every profession where you are in business for yourself experiences unproductive periods where it might reflect in lack of funds coming in or just personal stagnation. This is the time to see what you can do to be more productive.

Some have mentioned “emotional capital” which is such a valuable asset. The way you think of your loss of funds would have a direct impact on your progress, so don’t think of it as a loss rather as unproductive event. Make your changes slow towards productivity.

When you do well reward yourself with the things you like, this is sending a positive to your cognition. If you experience stagnation or lack of productivity…take a break. Taking a break is not “doing nothing”! ...it’s when you recharge and think of small changes you might need to apply.

Imagine where I want to be in life daily. Your vision of where or who you want to be is the greatest asset you have.
Without having a goal it’s difficult to score (applies to profit targets as well, LOL)

I appreciate that you have started this thread because writing this as motivated me as well.

Matt

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.
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  #15 (permalink)
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mindfultrader View Post
To you who have been there, what did you do when you want to change everything to get rid of the pain of failure: start over, buy another system, apply new indicators, change your chart frame, pretend you'll get through it or deny this urge to escape for these emotions and urges by changing things.
I made a big dumb mistake on Friday. Right now it is now 9 am PST Monday morning and I want to change everything and experiment with sim trades - I feel like I can't even read a chart - I want to start over - look for better indicators, a different chart frame (maybe tick charts or even time-based the 1 min maybe?) - it is desperate feeling of frustration, disappointment and embarrassment - need to change things, find a better system - Big Mike suggested not to change anything - good idea except that right now I want to change almost everything - I feel lost as if I have never done this before - been here before - the only difference is I am writing about it and owning it - these feeling really suck and I want to run from them by searching for a better indicator, better chart frame, a book, anything to get me out of this feeling - and I feel alone even though I doubt I am - what am I trading - double tops and bottoms, retracements, abc's? - right now I couldn't tell you.

Hi,

You shouldn't change anything with your method. In addition, the key statement in your quote, I've highlighted it with bold letters. You said..."I made a big dumb mistake on Friday."

It would seem to me that whatever happen on Friday is what spark your frustration. Thus, it only seems logical for you to discuss in detail everything that occurred on Friday that includes your pre-market preparation (routine) and the details of each trade you did along with providing a chart example you were using that Friday to make those trades.

Simply, that last thing or worst thing you want to do is start learning a new method or get involved in re-designing your current method if the problem is not the method when the problem could be how you prepare to trade and/or you're unknowingly sabotaging your trade methods. Also, if you don't want to discuss in great details what happen on Friday...it would be a message from you that you want to tweak your methods instead of determining if the problem is you.

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  #16 (permalink)
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wrbtrader View Post
Hi,

You shouldn't change anything with your method. In addition, the key statement in your quote, I've highlighted it with bold letters. You said..."I made a big dumb mistake on Friday."

It would seem to me that whatever happen on Friday is what spark your frustration. Thus, it only seems logical for you to discuss in detail everything that occurred on Friday that includes your pre-market preparation (routine) and the details of each trade you did along with providing a chart example you were using that Friday to make those trades.

Simply, that last thing or worst thing you want to do is start learning a new method or get involved in re-designing your current method if the problem is not the method when the problem could be how you prepare to trade and/or you're unknowingly sabotaging your trade methods. Also, if you don't want to discuss in great details what happen on Friday...it would be a message from you that you want to tweak your methods instead of determining if the problem is you.


wbtrader:

Thank you. I know now what that Friday was about - the repeat of a pattern I have done for years in other parts of my life - the only difference is that trading is almost immediate feedback. So I am taking steps to transform that pattern of avoidance. I describe it all in my 3/29 post and also today.

All the best in your trading, MT

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  #17 (permalink)
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Sorry to hear that. I've definitely been there. All I can say is don't panic and you'll get through it.

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  #18 (permalink)
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mindfultrader View Post
To you who have been there, what did you do when you want to change everything to get rid of the pain of failure: start over, buy another system, apply new indicators, change your chart frame, pretend you'll get through it or deny this urge to escape for these emotions and urges by changing things.
I made a big dumb mistake on Friday. Right now it is now 9 am PST Monday morning and I want to change everything and experiment with sim trades - I feel like I can't even read a chart - I want to start over - look for better indicators, a different chart frame (maybe tick charts or even time-based the 1 min maybe?) - it is desperate feeling of frustration, disappointment and embarrassment - need to change things, find a better system - Big Mike suggested not to change anything - good idea except that right now I want to change almost everything - I feel lost as if I have never done this before - been here before - the only difference is I am writing about it and owning it - these feeling really suck and I want to run from them by searching for a better indicator, better chart frame, a book, anything to get me out of this feeling - and I feel alone even though I doubt I am - what am I trading - double tops and bottoms, retracements, abc's? - right now I couldn't tell you.


Your biggest friend is empirical evidence for making the trade in the first place. And, the only way to reach empirical evidence, is through researching ideas until you find trading set-up that produce the results that satisfy your expectations. Your expectations should be anchored in historical evidence. Historical evidence = Probability for Trade Success.

There is no easy way around this issue. The Grail does exist! The Grail = Setting Appropriate Expectations based on the Tools (indicators/methodologies/systems/etc.) that you have empirical evidence for and that back-up the mathematical probability that they produce.

What is discovered to work through back-testing, needs to be forward-tested with the same results and/or within an acceptable margin of error that is to your liking. Good traders research trading ideas and tools that work across all three (3) major market types: Bull, Bear and Flat. Excellent traders bring to each market type, only that which has the highest probability for success under the current market conditions. You cannot possibly know how to produce the probabilities for your trading system/strategy/tactic/methodology, unless and until you do the homework necessary to produce the data that tells you precisely what to expect from each type of trade set-up under each type of market condition.

This is the painful truth that many traders don't want to hear. It is not easy. If it was, everybody and their Grandmother would be doing it. But, it gets a whole lot easier, once you understand what the probabilities for success look like before you enter the trade.

Now, what indicators/systems/strategies/tactics/methodologies/tools/etc. should you use? It depends. There are TONS of them out there that will produce "positive results." But the phrase "positive results" is completely meaningless until you first define WHY you are in this business in the first place. Some people are trying to simply supplement their current salaried job, others are trying to build a private fund worth billions in liquid assets. Everybody else falls somewhere in the middle. The entry into the trading business should always start with Why Am I Here?

Once you know why you are here, then you need to ask yourself: How much will it take to get me from here to there? Precious few people do this. The average person just blunders into the business because they think it is easy money. You need to clearly define why you are here and how much it will take to satisfy the "why" question.

Then you need to ask yourself: How much time do you have to build the capital I desire? You'd be surprised at how many people never ask this simple question. This question regulates almost everything you do in this business - it is an extremely important question to nail down. Some people have 50 years to work with, while others have less than 5 years as an event horizon.

{I'm a currency trader, so I speak in the language of pips} The next question you need to ask yourself is: Based on how much capital I desire and how much time I have to work with, how many pips per day/week/month/year will I need to capture to keep my on schedule? Again, precious few people ever bother with this question and as a direct result, they never truly understand their real internal ROI. This question will also force you to deal with the issues of Money Management as it will bring you nicely to the matter of leverage and position sizing.

Once you have mapped out the answers to these questions, THEN you are ready to start the research on trading systems/strategies/tactics/methodologies/etc., because only then will you have enough information to know whether or not that which you are researching has the capacity to keep your revenue targets on schedule each day/week/month/year.

My suggestion is to go grab Microsoft Excel and build yourself a Revenue Model. With your revenue model, you will be able to enter values for:

Starting Capital (account) Balance
Ending Capital (account) Balance
Leverage
Cost Basis Percentage per Trade
Reinvestment Rate
Number of Net Pips per Trade

With that information your revenue model should contain the calculations necessary to produce at least the following:

Position Size per Trade
Net Gain/Loss per Trade Pips
Net Gain/Loss per Trade Equity
Reinvestment Amount per Trade (Equity)
Total Number of Trades to Reach Ending Capital Balance Requirement
Running Account Balance

{these are just the basics of a good revenue model - yours may contain more output)

Your revenue model tells you more than just position size, it gives you a global snapshot of precisely where you are at any given time with respect to your stated Ending Capital (account) Balance and that is the bottom line for all traders. It is not just about making money in this business. It is about making money on schedule. This is part of what separates the good traders from the best in the world. The best in the business are growing their capital on schedule. The elite in this business are actually growing their capital geometrically on schedule.

Once you have this revenue model, then you can start hunting for those trade ideas that keep your model on schedule at the most optimal rate possible. The idea is to trade as close to the model as possible, by using only those trade ideas/tools that yield the highest probability for keeping the model intact as much as possible. The model is perfect. You however, will never trade perfectly and that's why you need to use only the ideas/tools that afford the highest degree of probability for trade success based on what your revenue model tells you is necessary to achieve your stated Ending Capital (account) Balance on schedule.

That's how you trade both on purpose and with a purpose. If I am in the markets without knowing where I'm going, when I've gotten there, or how long it should take me to get there, then I'm doing nothing but floundering in the markets and soon I'll run out of fuel with no place to land. But, if I optimize my trading with a Revenue Model, then all of a sudden I've got instantaneous feedback on where I am, what I'm doing and what needs to be tweaked in order to get back on schedule. That way, the course corrections I need to make are more easily seen and understood.

Hope that helps.


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  #19 (permalink)
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JetTrader View Post
Your biggest friend is empirical evidence for making the trade in the first place. And, the only way to reach empirical evidence, is through researching ideas until you find trading set-up that produce the results that satisfy your expectations. Your expectations should be anchored in historical evidence. Historical evidence = Probability for Trade Success.

There is no easy way around this issue. The Grail does exist! The Grail = Setting Appropriate Expectations based on the Tools (indicators/methodologies/systems/etc.) that you have empirical evidence for and that back-up the mathematical probability that they produce.

What is discovered to work through back-testing, needs to be forward-tested with the same results and/or within an acceptable margin of error that is to your liking. Good traders research trading ideas and tools that work across all three (3) major market types: Bull, Bear and Flat. Excellent traders bring to each market type, only that which has the highest probability for success under the current market conditions. You cannot possibly know how to produce the probabilities for your trading system/strategy/tactic/methodology, unless and until you do the homework necessary to produce the data that tells you precisely what to expect from each type of trade set-up under each type of market condition.

This is the painful truth that many traders don't want to hear. It is not easy. If it was, everybody and their Grandmother would be doing it. But, it gets a whole lot easier, once you understand what the probabilities for success look like before you enter the trade.

Now, what indicators/systems/strategies/tactics/methodologies/tools/etc. should you use? It depends. There are TONS of them out there that will produce "positive results." But the phrase "positive results" is completely meaningless until you first define WHY you are in this business in the first place. Some people are trying to simply supplement their current salaried job, others are trying to build a private fund worth billions in liquid assets. Everybody else falls somewhere in the middle. The entry into the trading business should always start with Why Am I Here?

Once you know why you are here, then you need to ask yourself: How much will it take to get me from here to there? Precious few people do this. The average person just blunders into the business because they think it is easy money. You need to clearly define why you are here and how much it will take to satisfy the "why" question.

Then you need to ask yourself: How much time do you have to build the capital I desire? You'd be surprised at how many people never ask this simple question. This question regulates almost everything you do in this business - it is an extremely important question to nail down. Some people have 50 years to work with, while others have less than 5 years as an event horizon.

{I'm a currency trader, so I speak in the language of pips} The next question you need to ask yourself is: Based on how much capital I desire and how much time I have to work with, how many pips per day/week/month/year will I need to capture to keep my on schedule? Again, precious few people ever bother with this question and as a direct result, they never truly understand their real internal ROI. This question will also force you to deal with the issues of Money Management as it will bring you nicely to the matter of leverage and position sizing.

Once you have mapped out the answers to these questions, THEN you are ready to start the research on trading systems/strategies/tactics/methodologies/etc., because only then will you have enough information to know whether or not that which you are researching has the capacity to keep your revenue targets on schedule each day/week/month/year.

My suggestion is to go grab Microsoft Excel and build yourself a Revenue Model. With your revenue model, you will be able to enter values for:

Starting Capital (account) Balance
Ending Capital (account) Balance
Leverage
Cost Basis Percentage per Trade
Reinvestment Rate
Number of Net Pips per Trade

With that information your revenue model should contain the calculations necessary to produce at least the following:

Position Size per Trade
Net Gain/Loss per Trade Pips
Net Gain/Loss per Trade Equity
Reinvestment Amount per Trade (Equity)
Total Number of Trades to Reach Ending Capital Balance Requirement
Running Account Balance

{these are just the basics of a good revenue model - yours may contain more output)

Your revenue model tells you more than just position size, it gives you a global snapshot of precisely where you are at any given time with respect to your stated Ending Capital (account) Balance and that is the bottom line for all traders. It is not just about making money in this business. It is about making money on schedule. This is part of what separates the good traders from the best in the world. The best in the business are growing their capital on schedule. The elite in this business are actually growing their capital geometrically on schedule.

Once you have this revenue model, then you can start hunting for those trade ideas that keep your model on schedule at the most optimal rate possible. The idea is to trade as close to the model as possible, by using only those trade ideas/tools that yield the highest probability for keeping the model intact as much as possible. The model is perfect. You however, will never trade perfectly and that's why you need to use only the ideas/tools that afford the highest degree of probability for trade success based on what your revenue model tells you is necessary to achieve your stated Ending Capital (account) Balance on schedule.

That's how you trade both on purpose and with a purpose. If I am in the markets without knowing where I'm going, when I've gotten there, or how long it should take me to get there, then I'm doing nothing but floundering in the markets and soon I'll run out of fuel with no place to land. But, if I optimize my trading with a Revenue Model, then all of a sudden I've got instantaneous feedback on where I am, what I'm doing and what needs to be tweaked in order to get back on schedule. That way, the course corrections I need to make are more easily seen and understood.

Hope that helps.



WOW, who are you?....you're like ZORO, the Masked Trader...Zooming by bestowing Pearls of Wisdom.

WOW, your signature says it all...

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
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  #20 (permalink)
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rtrade View Post
WOW, who are you?....you're like ZORO, the Masked Trader...Zooming by bestowing Pearls of Wisdom.

WOW, your signature says it all...

Hey RT,

Its all in the wrist. Actually, I've decided to try to find a board that was "different" from all the rest, where people actually behaved like adults instead of a bunch of six year old children. I stumbled upon BigMike and his forum and read what he was trying to create here. So, I'm giving the online trading community thing one last shot. Most forums out there with only 1 or 2 exceptions (if that many) usually deteriorate into weeny contests a mile long. Over the years, I just got tired of that nonsense.

So far, so good. Though I've read some posts here where it seems like at least some have forgotten the rules, the vast majority of what I've seen thus far has been fairly cordial, even when people disagree with each other. Time will tell - as it always does with these things.

I've been trading for a number of years now, most of what I type as advice and tips or helpful hints of encouragement, are based my experience over the years since about 1999/2000. Gee - I can't believe its been that long come to think of it. Believe it or not, most of that time has been spent developing skill, knowledge and expertise. But, most importantly, in zeroing in on what it takes to build a business as a private trader. I've lost lots of money, blown more than one account, but I did not give-up, nor did I quit the learning process and that's what ultimately turned me into a successful trader long-term.

Not quitting, was one of the biggest lessons I learned about this business. It is a great business, once you learn to do it right. But, getting over that hump, for many, will take time. And, developing the attitude of a truly successful trader, will undoubtedly take even longer.

It is doable, no doubt. But, only those committed to their own success will ever make to the top. Hang tough, learn all you can, but by all means - stick to something long enough to determine whether or not you can master it, or whether you cannot master it. Flip-flopping from idea to idea will actually retard your growth. Pick an idea and master it. If it produces results, more power to you. If not, more power to you - move on to the next idea. There are plenty of ways to skin the cat and plenty of good ways to trade the markets. One only has to find a way that suits their needs, as outline above.

All the best.


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