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10% per day, no way


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10% per day, no way

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  #1 (permalink)
 sysot1t 
 
 
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DionysusToast View Post
10% per day is not simply a target. It would make you perhaps the best trader on the planet. Surely this is more than just a target, no? Perhaps I am alone in making less than 1% per day.
.

gents, 10% per day is feasible.. specially if your account is $3K...

what you are asking, or should be asking, is can the method scale when your account is let's say $100K, even better... $250K -$1000K? I think that would then be rather a feat of skill...

I have seen guys make $200K-$300K on a single day on the Velocity Leader Board, but if you were to look at their account size in terms of %'s, I am certain it is not 10%, but rather more like 2-5% of the account, and those are their best days when they decide to push the envelop because the odds where on their favors... the remainder of the days they are doing $30-100K..

I looked at the spagetti on the charts from the OP and got lost.. but if the method works, all the power to the OP.. to me it was distracting quite a bit, I wasnt sure what to focus on, but that was just me..

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sysot1t View Post
gents, 10% per day is feasible.. specially if your account is $3K...
.

No it isn't.

It doesn't matter what size your account is. No trader can make 10% per day.

Still - this is what undercapitalized newbies want to hear - that they can turn their $3k account into a million one day. It is a pipe dream.

There's one way to prove your point though - open a $3k account and show us 10% returns per day. I will extend my offer to Ryan to you too - do this for 30 days and I will give you $1000.

It would be of benefit to newbies to see you attempt this. Maybe a few newbies will understand that trading isn't a get rich quick scheme.

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  #3 (permalink)
 sysot1t 
 
 
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you seem to miss the irony of my words when I said it was feasible, and please read and realize that I never said I was doing it... but I wont argue, as it is not worth the effort or time...

also, let's put this in perspective.. $3K account, 10%=$300= 6pts on ES, ~30 ticks on CL/EB/EMD/TF/6E/6A.... now contracts wise... thats about 6 on ES if you want it all in one shot... you are shooting for 10%, but it might cost you as well 10%... and your account to be depleted in no time...

now, anyone that is "new" should read and educate themselves and not take anyone's words as law, not even yours, not even mind..... but rather question what is being stated..

I personally would not allow anyone to tell me that I cant make 10% per day, nor that I can... as we are all different and have different account sizes and difference tolerance levels for at risk capital... why let someone limit my goal and purpose? it is that simple to me when it comes to your argument..

just like I laugh a bit at RyanB on his statement, I dont find it not feasible depending how it is done, but I do not find it scalable.... just as I dissmiss your argument which is based on stating that it is not feasible, given that it could be feasible.. there are two sides to every coin... offering to pay $1K to someone does very little to add value to a discussion, not to mention that $1K is not that much money, I would suggest to rather please state why you believe it wont work with supportive arguments..



DionysusToast View Post
No it isn't.

It doesn't matter what size your account is. No trader can make 10% per day.

Still - this is what undercapitalized newbies want to hear - that they can turn their $3k account into a million one day. It is a pipe dream.

There's one way to prove your point though - open a $3k account and show us 10% returns per day. I will extend my offer to Ryan to you too - do this for 30 days and I will give you $1000.

It would be of benefit to newbies to see you attempt this. Maybe a few newbies will understand that trading isn't a get rich quick scheme.


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sysot1t View Post
you seem to miss the irony of my words when I said it was feasible, and please read and realize that I never said I was doing it... but I wont argue, as it is not worth the effort or time...

also, let's put this in perspective.. $3K account, 10%=$300= 6pts on ES, ~30 ticks on CL/EB/EMD/TF/6E/6A.... now contracts wise... thats about 6 on ES if you want it all in one shot... you are shooting for 10%, but it might cost you as well 10%... and your account to be depleted in no time...

now, anyone that is "new" should read and educate themselves and not take anyone's words as law, not even yours, not even mind..... but rather question what is being stated..

I personally would not allow anyone to tell me that I cant make 10% per day, nor that I can... as we are all different and have different account sizes and difference tolerance levels for at risk capital... why let someone limit my goal and purpose? it is that simple to me when it comes to your argument..

just like I laugh a bit at RyanB on his statement, I dont find it not feasible depending how it is done, but I do not find it scalable.... just as I dissmiss your argument which is based on stating that it is not feasible, given that it could be feasible.. there are two sides to every coin... offering to pay $1K to someone does very little to add value to a discussion, not to mention that $1K is not that much money, I would suggest to rather please state why you believe it wont work with supportive arguments..

When making spurious claims, the burden of proof is on the person making those claims.

Aiming for 10% a day would wipe you out. Scalability is not the issue. Real-life is the issue. You are free to put your money where your mouth is and show your 10% per day performance. The fact is it's not possible, never has been possible and never will be possible.

The risk you take on a daily basis to make a 10% return would catch up with you and wipe you out.

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  #5 (permalink)
 sysot1t 
 
 
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You still miss my point, but as I said ... Not worth arguing .. If you care to debate, then provide a reasonable response, other than that you are also making an invalid claim... But like I said, not worth the time to argue as it takes value from the debate.


DionysusToast View Post
When making spurious claims, the burden of proof is on the person making those claims.

Aiming for 10% a day would wipe you out. Scalability is not the issue. Real-life is the issue. You are free to put your money where your mouth is and show your 10% per day performance. The fact is it's not possible, never has been possible and never will be possible.

The risk you take on a daily basis to make a 10% return would catch up with you and wipe you out.


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 Ryanb 
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This treat has been started because of my journal: 10% profit on account per day.

Please discuss here if you think it's possible to make 10% on account per day or not.

Please discuss well founded.

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 vvhg 
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Long term: clearly impossible IMHO alone due to scaling issues...
Short term: possible, take a small account and high leverage, have a good runner and there you are. (depending on risk taken, might end up in a desaster faster than you can say "Holy S&§t"

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 redratsal 
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DionysusToast View Post
No it isn't.

It doesn't matter what size your account is. No trader can make 10% per day.

Still - this is what undercapitalized newbies want to hear - that they can turn their $3k account into a million one day. It is a pipe dream.

There's one way to prove your point though - open a $3k account and show us 10% returns per day. I will extend my offer to Ryan to you too - do this for 30 days and I will give you $1000.

It would be of benefit to newbies to see you attempt this. Maybe a few newbies will understand that trading isn't a get rich quick scheme.

Hi,

I am neutral in the discussion since I don't know the answer, but your logic makes no sense; either ways cannot be proven or if you prefer I give you 1000 USD if you prove me that 10%/day is impossible, I think at the end of this thread we'll still be at the starting point for the good sake of newbies and pros

Karl Popper's falsiability assumption "... a theory should be considered scientific if and only if it is falsifiable..."

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 MetalTrade 
 
 
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Ik vind het een schitterende journal maar het probleem is als volgt :

The problem is that you can trade all you like in sim trading, once you have real money on the line you won't have the same discipline, don't ask me why, but that's how it is. That's why sim trading IMHO is only good for testing out your software.

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Scaling is not the issue here. You could start with $100 on a micro forex account at Oanda and quite comfortably get to the point where you were trading millions without issue.

Of course, when you get to hundreds of millions in the account, I can see that you may have some issues. That's not what we are talking about is it though? OR are people saying that 10% a day isn't possible because when you have a billion dollars it becomes unweildy?

The fact is that markets do not give you a return for free. Return is a function of risk. Of course some methods assume more risk for the retun than others. In simple terms, if you take the sort of risks to return 10% per day, the end result will be a balance of zero or less when you hit a series of losing trades.

10% per day would be a holy grail system and searching for such things is not a productive endeavour.

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 Anagami 
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Ryanb View Post
This treat has been started because of my journal: 10% profit on account per day.

Please discuss here if you think it's possible to make 10% on account per day or not.

Please discuss well founded.

I feel that a much more interesting question is: is it possible to be profitable EVERY day?

Even if you don't make 10%, you will reach whatever financial goal you want if you can make something every day. The issue is not the %. It is the sign in front of it.

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 Eric j 
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Im aiming for 2% a day and thats a feat in itself . The 1st month I got 12% trading a 1 lot in a sim $1000 account . 10% a day in any account would probably put you in the super trader Stevie cohen category or better , even it was a $3000 account .

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 MetalTrade 
 
 
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It's quite simple. Open a real 'demo' account connected to NT, not the sim101 account. So it can be remotely measured what the balance is (PFGBest has this I think, but you would need to put the orders in the other software, but that wouldn't be to difficult)

Then the OP can prove is knowledge, and the rest of us can go cry in a corner with our 10% per month -beating like every pro out there- results

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 Eric j 
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I stop myself when I begin being concerned with others results . I remember that its my account I need to focus on and no one elses .

I do however enjoy seeing others meet there goals and being rewarded for hard work and dedication so I extend that to the op and all others . I also know that the BS artists will be rewarded for their efforts as well .

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 sysot1t 
 
 
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DionysusToast View Post
Scaling is not the issue here. You could start with $100 on a micro forex account at Oanda and quite comfortably get to the point where you were trading millions without issue.

Of course, when you get to hundreds of millions in the account, I can see that you may have some issues. That's not what we are talking about is it though? OR are people saying that 10% a day isn't possible because when you have a billion dollars it becomes unweildy?

when your account is such that it can move the markets as you move, it becomes difficult to trade... there is a reason why one of the largest hedge funds with $80B+ in assets under management went from 170B+ down to $80B+.. it could not effectively trade all their money, only half was more than sufficient to provide their clients with their returns, and no, they dont generate 10% per day.. they generate about 30-40% on their money..

ensuring a strategy can scale as the portfolio grows is not an easy thing, and it is a problem.. a strat that works with $1MM, might not work when you make that $100M..


DionysusToast View Post
The fact is that markets do not give you a return for free. Return is a function of risk. Of course some methods assume more risk for the retun than others. In simple terms, if you take the sort of risks to return 10% per day, the end result will be a balance of zero or less when you hit a series of losing trades.

10% per day would be a holy grail system and searching for such things is not a productive endeavour.

you finally see my point...

but you are still missing one... 10% being no realistic is still your opinion, if someone else decides that they can develop and edge and make it happen, then there is no reason why your opinion or any else's should stop them from doing so.. the amount of risk they take is their own decision, not to be influenced by anyone but their own circumstances..

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 sysot1t 
 
 
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Eric j View Post
10% a day in any account would probably put you in the super trader Stevie cohen category or better , even it was a $3000 account .

Interesting, however, SAC returned under 20% in 2010... and about 3% YTD... so 10% a day with $15B+ in trading assets would place you on a league of your own above SAC....

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 sysot1t 
 
 
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Eric j View Post
I stop myself when I begin being concerned with others results . I remember that its my account I need to focus on and no one elses .

Amen to that...

I personally have no daily goals or monthly goals or what not.. at least not anymore... I dropped those a few weeks ago... I just position(swing/day) trade my options and I day trade the futures that I am ok with... my goal is to trade well and be profitable.. grow my account and as I gain confidence increase my size, if I am trading wrong or am distracted, or feel like gambling, then I reduce my size down to 1 contract and I focus on one market..

as you said, it is one's account.. which is why I have an issue when someone tries to convince me or anyone else of what is feasible or not.. if the argument was as to what is realistic, then I can understand, but feasibility? I believe the sky is the limit.. if I can somehow come up with something that short term gives me 100% returns every single day, I would milk it until the edge is gone, even if that meant it was only for 30 days..

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 josh 
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sysot1t View Post
Amen to that...

I personally have no daily goals or monthly goals or what not.. at least not anymore... I dropped those a few weeks ago... I just position(swing/day) trade my options and I day trade the futures that I am ok with... my goal is to trade well and be profitable.. grow my account and as I gain confidence increase my size, if I am trading wrong or am distracted, or feel like gambling, then I reduce my size down to 1 contract and I focus on one market..

as you said, it is one's account.. which is why I have an issue when someone tries to convince me or anyone else of what is feasible or not.. if the argument was as to what is realistic, then I can understand, but feasibility? I believe the sky is the limit.. if I can somehow come up with something that short term gives me 100% returns every single day, I would milk it until the edge is gone, even if that meant it was only for 30 days..

Well, 100% at just 20 days would leave you with $104 Million, even if you started on day one with $100. So after that point I hope you'd just retire and let me use your edge for the remaining 10 days :-)

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felixtjung
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Hi,

Just stumble across this thread. A pretty interesting thread indeed. I've 2 points that I might want to add to this discussion.

1. It is possible to get 10% per day possibly more "on average" (but clearly it's impossible to do it everyday)

The secret to this is to use market's money as part of your money management. Clearly this technique is completely doable, but it's for master class trader only who have complete control over their psychology since serious drawdown is inevitable (I'm talking about the kind of drawdown that will make a normal trader cries like a baby here).

2. In high probability trading system, winning streak tend to occur. Any foolish mortal who overtrade this system might luckily get that kind of performance over short period of time.

This period might vary depending on how lucky they are. But a month, is a bit short and hence it's quite possible I would say.



In my opinion, trading world is crazy. In the past, I've been proven wrong again and again. I've no doubt I'll be proven wrong again in the future. The boundary between "what is real" and "what is not" is very thin.


Cheer

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 ThatManFromTexas 
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There are sooo many variables here...

Do you mean make 10% every day or on average?

Do you leave your earnings in the account increasing the amount required to earn per day or withdraw them?

Does a $2 profit per day on a $200 micro account have the same validity of $10,000 profit on a $100.000 account?

Unless one can prove it is NOT possible to do this ... one cannot state as fact that it is impossible...

How would you prove it IS possible? What time frame do you measure by? A week, month, year ... what if the next day you had a loss.. would that negate the previous year of trading experiences?

Which leaves everyone to their own opinion...


My opinion is...

More importantly.... how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin....

Regards,
TMFT

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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 josh 
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Don't let me tell you it can't be done, but it can't. Great returns would be 10% per month, godly returns would be 20 or 30% per month. Heck, even just breaking even is no small feat, that in itself is above average.

If someone can make 10% per day for just 10 straight trading days, I'd be bowing at their feet. And that's not even trading every day, just any given day the person decided to trade.

Higher returns necessitate higher risk, it's the way it works. In 10 trading days, a 10% daily compounded return would be 259%, in 20 days, 672%, in 30 days 1744%!

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 ThatManFromTexas 
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josh View Post
Higher returns necessitate higher risk, it's the way it works. In 10 trading days, a 10% daily compounded return would be 259%, in 20 days, 672%, in 30 days 1744%!


Depends on the rules...

$200 micro account, 10% per day, withdraw all winnings daily.

$2 X 20 trading days per month X 12 months = $480 per year

$480 / $200 =240% per year

240% APR is reasonable ... right...

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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felixtjung
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I clearly said it's impossible to do it everyday, but it's completely doable to get 10% or more per day on average (of course market's money technique is a prerequisite).

To use market's money technique, of course you must use your existing profit just like it's not your money (e.g. you can't withdraw it). In the past, there are a lot of great trader that already use this technique. They generate ridiculous return 2000% return per month (not every month, but they do happen). There was one trader who turn $100k to $3 million in 3 months.

I'm saying it's "technically possible", but that doesn't mean everybody can do it because psychology is the main reason why human is soo fragile when comes to trading.

I think the reason why people say it can't be done is because they can't do it themselves or perhaps they don't even know how to do it. But that doesn't mean it's impossible to do it.

One thing that is sure when comes to traders who use market's money are they usually generate "unusual return rate" AND ALSO they have "unusual drawdown". Just a word of warning, I put emphasise on "unusual drawdown". If you still struggle with normal money management technique, then stay away from this technique.

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 bluemele 
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Well, you all figured it out, how to sell 10% per day to a prospective trader! Now, build your 200 page scroll down web page and use all the other wonderful phrases and you will be banking in the VENDOR MONEY! wooohooo!!!!

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felixtjung
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
Depends on the rules...

$200 micro account, 10% per day, withdraw all winnings daily.

$2 X 20 trading days per month X 12 months = $480 per year

$480 / $200 =240% per year

240% APR is reasonable ... right...

It sounds like you just invent your own holy grail system. But if you are talking about market's money, then you will be extremely disappointed. LOL.

1. You can't withdraw "any" of your profit.
2. You haven't consider the drawdown that might occur (40%, 50%, 70% ???)

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felixtjung
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Geez, I'm washing my hand from this thread! I'm just talking about advance money management technique here, you guys begins to day dream. >.<

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 sysot1t 
 
 
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felixtjung View Post
I clearly said it's impossible to do it everyday, but it's completely doable to get 10% or more per day on average (of course market's money technique is a prerequisite).

To use market's money technique, of course you must use your existing profit just like it's not your money (e.g. you can't withdraw it). In the past, there are a lot of great trader that already use this technique. They generate ridiculous return 2000% return per month (not every month, but they do happen). There was one trader who turn $100k to $3 million in 3 months.

I was wondering what you were referring to as to the technique.. I didnt feeling like searching for it... but it appears you are referring to merely compounding, increasing your contracts as your account increases... if that is the case, I always assume one does that.. personally I set aside 25% of the profits on the account as a buffer... does not mean I draw it, but rather that I keep it with the broker on a separate account in the event I had f*up really bad and I need to start from somewhere... my long term plan does forces me to "draw", meaning I return funds back to my IRA for other investments... but at the same time, while the $$$ is not in use, I leverage it to increase the profits...


felixtjung View Post

I'm saying it's "technically possible", but that doesn't mean everybody can do it because psychology is the main reason why human is soo fragile when comes to trading.

I certainly agree... not the same thing trading with $10K on your account and risking 3% and trading $200K and risking the same 3% but it is now $6K.. I can only imagine what happens when one has $1MM... and risks $30K a pop... but the truth is, tha there are those that can do it and do it every day.. and those that do it with more than $1MM...


felixtjung View Post

I think the reason why people say it can't be done is because they can't do it themselves or perhaps they don't even know how to do it. But that doesn't mean it's impossible to do it.

hehehe, you hit it right on the nail IMO...

those that always say that something is impossible, that it cant be done, are usually those that lack the ability to push themselves to the limit, and that lack discipline... one of my personal heroes, is Herbert Nitsch.. the dood pushes himself to compete with himself, to break his own records, and has achieved some feats that most humans would say are impossible; yet, he has proven the impossible possible by working hard and pushing his limits, and that of the human body...

as I said, I dont let anyone tell me something is impossible.. so 10% per day... very much possible... .. though i have not found the way to make it happen yet..

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 TheSeeker 
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Some think that 1% daily cannot be averaged , others claim that even 10-20% per year is impossible in the long run...


For inspiration, let's look at this forex contest:

King of the Micro | Monthly Forex Micro Trading Contest

here are the monthly winners:

King of the Micro Trading Contest


So at least for one month, 600%-1000% were achieved by the respective winners, of course using crazy leverage.

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felixtjung
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TheSeeker View Post
Some think that 1% daily cannot be averaged , others claim that even 10-20% per year is impossible in the long run...


For inspiration, let's look at this forex contest:

King of the Micro | Monthly Forex Micro Trading Contest

here are the monthly winners:

King of the Micro Trading Contest


So at least for one month, 600%-1000% were achieved by the respective winners, of course using crazy leverage.

The nature of competition and trading for living are very much different. In competition, the luck element is much higher. Such leverage level is simply impractical in real trading which might cause a very serious drawdown. I rarely see the winner of trading competition remains a very successful trader in their live. Some champions do, most don't.

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sysot1t View Post
I was wondering what you were referring to as to the technique.. I didnt feeling like searching for it... but it appears you are referring to merely compounding, increasing your contracts as your account increases... if that is the case, I always assume one does that.. personally I set aside 25% of the profits on the account as a buffer... does not mean I draw it, but rather that I keep it with the broker on a separate account in the event I had f*up really bad and I need to start from somewhere... my long term plan does forces me to "draw", meaning I return funds back to my IRA for other investments... but at the same time, while the $$$ is not in use, I leverage it to increase the profits...

I certainly agree... not the same thing trading with $10K on your account and risking 3% and trading $200K and risking the same 3% but it is now $6K.. I can only imagine what happens when one has $1MM... and risks $30K a pop... but the truth is, tha there are those that can do it and do it every day.. and those that do it with more than $1MM...

Strictly speaking, "Market's money" refers to a concept (rather than a technique) where trader divides "their own money" and "market's money".

Market's money here refers to the profit that the trader accumulate which trader intend to risk more.

This concept gives birth to unlimited techniques including pyramiding, scaling up and scaling down etc.

EXAMPLE:

Let say you have $10000, Here's the plan:
1. Owner's money always constants = $10000
2. Market's money = $totalprofit
3. Risk 1% of Owner's money and 10% of market's money
4. After every year, reset Owner's money = $AllMoney and Market's Money = $0

This technique that used concept above will have characteristic of starting conservative and becoming aggresive as you accumulate profit. In the case where there's a drawdown, you become less and less aggresive.

Suppose you have %10 drawdown trading using 1% risk capital, using technique above means:
1. You will never have %10 drawdown of your "original capital".
2. You might get some crazy drawdown when you got a lot of profit.
3. You have insane growth at the end when risking 10% of your profit (when your profit is really big).

All of this fall into the category of "Money Management" school. If there's a so called secret of trading, then I've very little doubt that it refers to "Money Management". After all, it's called a secret because there are soo many people know about it, but only few people understand the real meaning behind it.

Of course, you have to consder a lot of practical stuff while implementing it. Eg. ensure your capital is not too big for the market you are trading and etc etc.

I hope that helps.

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sysot1t View Post
when your account is such that it can move the markets as you move, it becomes difficult to trade... there is a reason why one of the largest hedge funds with $80B+ in assets under management went from 170B+ down to $80B+.. it could not effectively trade all their money, only half was more than sufficient to provide their clients with their returns, and no, they dont generate 10% per day.. they generate about 30-40% on their money..

ensuring a strategy can scale as the portfolio grows is not an easy thing, and it is a problem.. a strat that works with $1MM, might not work when you make that $100M..



you finally see my point...

Actually - this will never become an issue. Let's say you start with $1000 and aim for 10% per day. You will never have a scaling issue because you will blow up the account before it ever happens. Hence scaling is not the issue. Taking excessive risk is the issue.

Also - to say "it doesn't scale" and then talk about "it won't work with $100M" is disingenious. If I made $100M from trading and then found I couldn't trade the same way any more, I would call that a complete success, not a failure to scale.

Still - I admire your lofty goals.


sysot1t View Post
but you are still missing one... 10% being no realistic is still your opinion, if someone else decides that they can develop and edge and make it happen, then there is no reason why your opinion or any else's should stop them from doing so.. the amount of risk they take is their own decision, not to be influenced by anyone but their own circumstances..

It is not my opinion that 10% per day is impossible, it is a fact and it is tied to risk.

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 ThatManFromTexas 
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DionysusToast View Post


It is not my opinion that 10% per day is impossible, it is a fact and it is tied to risk.

Show your work...

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
Show your work...

Would you like my thesis on why pigs can't fly too?

I'm all for having aspirations but this kind of stuff is ridiculous. If people don't understand that risk and reward are related, then where do we start?

The 10% a day thing has been done to death on trading forums and it's usually people with $5000 (or less) futures accounts banging the 10% drum. If you are woefully undercapitalised, then of course you need to cling to beliefs like this 10% thing. A small amount of money and a limited imagination will lead you to the place where you need to believe you can turn the $5k into a million. It's the classic get rich quick syndrome.

We also see on here another myth - that you can money manage your way to profits. This is along the same lines of the 10% a day. If you have are trading directionally and have a negative expectency, then money management cannot make that positive.

On the bright side - the very people that aspire to do this are the ones that keep the markets topped up with new money.

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 Trader.Jon 
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OK ...

Larry Williams, many many years ago turned a $10000 account into $2 million in 10 months and then lost 1million from that for a net of 1million in a year (please rounded numbers but you get the idea)

So, is that 10% / day if you consider 990,000/250 days = 3960 $$ ?? He was consistent in his trading interms of fixed%/max% risk /trade, and admits he was trying to prove that he could trade more than 1 type of a market at a time when he had his big drawdown. This was part of
Robbins Trading Company - World Cup Challenge so it is documented and audited ...

AND YES, he hasnt done quite as well since then

Markets at that time were more highly leveraged, and even Hillary Clinton made money trading so I guess anything was possible. What is likely is that a really great trader wouldnt leave all his trading money in the broker account if he wanted to trade for a living.

TJ

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Jon

Good points there.

$10,000 -> $2m in 10 months is actually a lot less than 10% per day.

If you compound $10,000 at 10% per day, then by day 57, you are at $2,079,651. So - even by one of the best examples of survivorship bias on the planet, it's still a lofty goal.

As for the Larry Williams thing - how many people had heard of Larry before this experiment? Do we hear anything from people that blew up their $10k account? Of course not. Just by the fact that so many people try this, the laws of probability are such that someone is bound to succeed just by sheer chance. The fact that Larry couldn't keep this up is also a good sign that luck was at play here rather than a great skill in trading. Still - I'd certainly buy him lunch to pick his brains about it.

Taleb should be mandatory reading for anyone reading too much into even their own results.

Pete

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 ThatManFromTexas 
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DionysusToast View Post
Would you like my thesis on why pigs can't fly too?

I'm all for having aspirations but this kind of stuff is ridiculous. If people don't understand that risk and reward are related, then where do we start?

The 10% a day thing has been done to death on trading forums and it's usually people with $5000 (or less) futures accounts banging the 10% drum. If you are woefully undercapitalised, then of course you need to cling to beliefs like this 10% thing. A small amount of money and a limited imagination will lead you to the place where you need to believe you can turn the $5k into a million. It's the classic get rich quick syndrome.

We also see on here another myth - that you can money manage your way to profits. This is along the same lines of the 10% a day. If you have are trading directionally and have a negative expectency, then money management cannot make that positive.

On the bright side - the very people that aspire to do this are the ones that keep the markets topped up with new money.



1. I didn't say you were not correct. But without substantiating documentation Sir... it is still just your opinion , to which everyone is entitled to have one.

2. This entire argument is silly unless someone is going to post a reputable, verified field study that lends credence to one side of the argument over the other. But alas this is the internet where facts and documentation never enter into the equation.

3. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.



Regards,
TMFT

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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felixtjung
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DionysusToast View Post
Jon

Good points there.

$10,000 -> $2m in 10 months is actually a lot less than 10% per day.

If you compound $10,000 at 10% per day, then by day 57, you are at $2,079,651. So - even by one of the best examples of survivorship bias on the planet, it's still a lofty goal.

As for the Larry Williams thing - how many people had heard of Larry before this experiment? Do we hear anything from people that blew up their $10k account? Of course not. Just by the fact that so many people try this, the laws of probability are such that someone is bound to succeed just by sheer chance. The fact that Larry couldn't keep this up is also a good sign that luck was at play here rather than a great skill in trading. Still - I'd certainly buy him lunch to pick his brains about it.

Taleb should be mandatory reading for anyone reading too much into even their own results.

Pete

Talking about survivorship bias, I found this.

Gann according to his interview turned $130 to $12000 in less than a month.

Growth / day = (($12000 - $130) / 20 days) / 130 * 100% = 456% / day

W.D. Gann

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ThatManFromTexas View Post
Attachment 33125

1. I didn't say you were not correct. But without substantiating documentation Sir... it is still just your opinion , to which everyone is entitled to have one.

2. This entire argument is silly unless someone is going to post a reputable, verified field study that lends credence to one side of the argument over the other. But alas this is the internet where facts and documentation never enter into the equation.

3. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.

Attachment 33127

Regards,
TMFT

Santa? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Actually, the arguments FOR 10% a day are silly. They exist for a reason, to give hope to the undercapitalised. I know a few full time traders, some of whom run a fund. They have quite a laugh when they hear about this stuff. It is the stuff of people focused on reward and not risk.

Of course, we could argue that it is 'possible' that if you flap your arms fast enough that you will take flight. Still you would have to be fairly naive to request a study to prove/disprove this. It is simply common sense that it is not possible. So it is with claims from undercapitalized traders (many of them still paper trading) that it really is possible, they just haven't done it yet.

The fact is, you don't need to study something that people new to trading hope for but people with experience know is outlandish. You just have to wait for the penny to drop in the newbies.

In trading, if you aim for the stars, you shoot yourself in the foot.

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 Trader.Jon 
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DionysusToast View Post
Would you like my thesis on why pigs can't fly too?

As long as it also includes why humans cant either

lol

Jon

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 ThatManFromTexas 
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DionysusToast View Post
Santa? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Actually, the arguments FOR 10% a day are silly. They exist for a reason, to give hope to the undercapitalised. I know a few full time traders, some of whom run a fund. They have quite a laugh when they hear about this stuff. It is the stuff of people focused on reward and not risk.

Of course, we could argue that it is 'possible' that if you flap your arms fast enough that you will take flight. Still you would have to be fairly naive to request a study to prove/disprove this. It is simply common sense that it is not possible. So it is with claims from undercapitalized traders (many of them still paper trading) that it really is possible, they just haven't done it yet.

The fact is, you don't need to study something that people new to trading hope for but people with experience know is outlandish. You just have to wait for the penny to drop in the newbies.

In trading, if you aim for the stars, you shoot yourself in the foot.

Once again... that is your opinion, Sir... to which you are entiltled ... as well as the right to express it on a discussion board ... however that does not negate the fact that it is your opinion... IMHO

However, your analogy about flying is flawed. Laws of aerodynamics are substantiated fact.

Regards,
TMFT

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
Once again... that is your opinion, Sir... to which you are entiltled ... as well as the right to express it on a discussion board ... however that does not negate the fact that it is your opinion... IMHO

You are entitled to that opinion. Still - I have yet to see scientific proof from you that mine is an opinion and not real fact.

Of course, if you can prove beyond doubt that this is just an opinion of mine, I will be willing to look at the results of your analysis.

Until that point, your opinion as regards my statements being opinion or fact is just that - your opinion.

My facts, therefore remain unchallenged and should be seen as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


ThatManFromTexas View Post
However, your analogy about flying is flawed. Laws of aerodynamics are substantiated fact.

Regards,
TMFT

As are the laws of trading TMFT. Unless you want to show how risk and reward are not associated.

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felixtjung
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DionysusToast View Post
Actually - this will never become an issue. Let's say you start with $1000 and aim for 10% per day. You will never have a scaling issue because you will blow up the account before it ever happens. Hence scaling is not the issue. Taking excessive risk is the issue.

This won't happens easily if you use market's money in a correct way. Once you run out of profit, you begin to start conservative. You only become aggresive when you got profit.



DionysusToast View Post
We also see on here another myth - that you can money manage your way to profits. This is along the same lines of the 10% a day. If you have are trading directionally and have a negative expectency, then money management cannot make that positive.

Oh, oh, which one are you referring to? Did my previous statement state that? I did say market's money is only for master class trader, didn't I? which implies the user has to be profitable in the first place.


DionysusToast View Post
In trading, if you aim for the stars, you shoot yourself in the foot.

That depends who is the shooter. According to Van Tharp, in his book, he states that there is one of his clients whose purpose is to make as much money no matter what the cost is. He also states that the trader starts $100k every year. I guess, It now depends what is the trader's objectives. Sometimes when the trader is already too rich, they no longer for living, but they trade for challenge.

I guess, it's unfair to assume every trader to have same objectives as yourselves, isn't it?


DionysusToast View Post
Actually, the arguments FOR 10% a day are silly. They exist for a reason, to give hope to the undercapitalised. I know a few full time traders, some of whom run a fund. They have quite a laugh when they hear about this stuff. It is the stuff of people focused on reward and not risk.

Of course they'll laugh, let me tell you why.

1. They can't have too large drawdown.

Trading using someone else money and trading using yourown money is very different. Especially when you use market's money, it's becoming very troublesome. As we already know, higher reward is always associated with higher risk (hence drawdown).

When you tell client, you have grown their money from 100k to 1 million, and you later on turn it to 800k, according to you, you just make 700k for them, but the way they view it is they just lost 200k.

For this very reason, "anything" that has large drawdown is unusable. This very requirement practically eliminate all high-risk technique like usage of market's money. So, is it possible to make very high return? No, not for them.

2. Focus too much on high probability system

Any big trader will realise that high probability system sacrifice "a lot" of advantage compared to system like trend follower. High probability system means employing tactic like hit and run which means taking a lot of trades. Cast aside the high probability winning advantage, what's left are these "awesomeness":
* More slippage
* Less scalable
* Less expectancy
As a point of reference, expectancy of trend following system generally about 0.6-0.8. Swing trading system has about 0.3-0.5.
* More prune to price shock (because you have to put tight stop, and when price shock occur it normally amount to several times your stop loss)
* More Unables
Unables is trades that can't be taken because price has moved too much. According to Perry Kaufman in his excellent Smart Trading, He states in big hedge fund, Unables account for 30% of all the trades. And it's easy to see why all unables are winning trades which means they'll lose 30% of their profitable trades.

Trend following system exempts to these things in exchange for abysmal winning rate.

The strategy used by trader works for hedge/manage fund is not something that you can impress with. Dealing with large amount of money is hard enough.
The very best hedge funds usually employs trend following because they got no choice.

3. Dodgy manager (which is non-trader)

Usually, the supervisor of trading in fund is monitored by someone who is not even a trader. I heard they come from other department and has proven themselves in their field. Consequently, they ... sucks... They tend to say "Don't lose, take profit all the time even if it's small".
We all know, it's quite impossible to follow that advice.


When comes to institutional traders, I'm not impress. I rather trust my own fund to myself.

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 Ryanb 
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MetalTrade View Post
Ik vind het een schitterende journal maar het probleem is als volgt :

The problem is that you can trade all you like in sim trading, once you have real money on the line you won't have the same discipline, don't ask me why, but that's how it is. That's why sim trading IMHO is only good for testing out your software.

Bedankt,
I agree but i think that the consistency and discipline needs to be almost the same. If you don't believe that you will get this you should not trade manually, but you need to make full-automatic systems they are always consistent.

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 Ryanb 
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BTW.

You're all really focussed on the account value, but take a look at this:

Trader X has the following assets:

$ 300.000,- cash at the local bank
$ 3.000,- in trading account

if he makes 10% per day on his trading account, he is not making that much on his total capital.
the big thing here is: if you have all the money in the trading account then suddenly the risk will drop (and that`s clearly not the case)

if he has 300.000 in his account and makes the same amount of money than he suddenly makes 0,10% and then suddenly it`s all possible right? (and maybe you will be called a too low aiming trader.)

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Ryanb View Post
BTW.

You're all really focussed on the account value, but take a look at this:

Trader X has the following assets:

$ 300.000,- cash at the local bank
$ 3.000,- in trading account

if he makes 10% per day on his trading account, he is not making that much on his total capital.
the big thing here is: if you have all the money in the trading account then suddenly the risk will drop (and that`s clearly not the case)

if he has 300.000 in his account and makes the same amount of money than he suddenly makes 0,10% and then suddenly it`s all possible right? (and maybe you will be called a too low aiming trader.)

Trader X has the following assets:

$ 300.000,- cash at the local bank
$ 3.000,- in trading account


If he makes 10% per day on his trading account, it will exceed the cash in the bank in a little under 2 months.

No need to worry about that because the risks involved will prevent it from ever happening.


Ryanb View Post
if he has 300.000 in his account and makes the same amount of money than he suddenly makes 0,10% and then suddenly it`s all possible right? (and maybe you will be called a too low aiming trader.)

With 300,000 in his account, he is properly capitalized. With 3,000 he isn't.

Let's say you risk $600 to make that $300 per day. How likely is it that the guy with 300,000 in his account will blow up? Not likely - but the guy with 3,000 in his account will certainly do that.

This is why it doesn't work - you need to risk too much of your capital to make the 10% per day.

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Ryanb View Post
Bedankt,
I agree but i think that the consistency and discipline needs to be almost the same. If you don't believe that you will get this you should not trade manually, but you need to make full-automatic systems they are always consistent.

My personal experience was that SIM trading was detrimental to my progress.

Consistency only come when I had real money committed to trades (even small amounts). Micro accounts and ETFs allow you to trade big boys markets but with a fraction of the risk. The benefits being that you have money at stake yet you are not going to blow your account learning how to trade. I was fortunate enough to have a mentor that put me on the path with this.

For me SIM trading was not just a waste of time, it was setting me back.

I have yet to meet a single trader that is making a profit from automation. Automation is not really a cure for psychological issues, it is mostly a dead end. In my experience people attempt automation as a substitute for learning how to trade, not to gain consistency.

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 sysot1t 
 
 
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DionysusToast View Post
This is why it doesn't work - you need to risk too much of your capital to make the 10% per day.

says who?

first of all, $300K in the bank and $3K on the account is not under cap... heck, personally I split my accounts across FCM's and I dont keep all my capital on those accounts... if you look at one account, you might think I am under cap, but the reality is that I am not. The whole point of being properly capitalized is that you wont be out of the game with a streak of bad losses, even if you have to transfer more capital to the trading account, the trader with $300K on the bank is not undercap..

so not following your logic... and more importantly, if the trader is ok with the risk, then what is it to you?

you make some good statements, but you are still not getting the point... as TMFT stated, and I have stated before, you are attempting to impose your opinion that could be right or wrong...

I have a few friends that run hedge funds, and plenty of them that trade for hedgefunds and those that run technologies for hedge funds and the reality is that they would certainly laugh at 10%per day because though they take risk, they have investors to account to and wont risk more than what they should... besides HF deal with way different strategies from those in this forum...so let's not necessarily compare the wanna be trader (ourselves) and the true professional trader that is Series 3 & 7 and has been properly trained and funded to trade with firm capital...

still, in the end that it cant be done is your opinion ... and you seem to hide behind the "it is proven because of risk, your account would be blown" ... which is not crazy, but again, your opinion and nothing more... just like the myth of 99% of traders fail... when in reality it is 99% of undecapitalized, unpreppared, uneducated wanna be traders that fail... but every one out there without the brassballs will say that everyone fails because they failed...

what you seem to miss as well is that one can actually trade all day across multiple markets, focusing on one at a time, and actually average that 10% per day .. when starting with a small $3K account (and to me small is $50K fYI)... there are so many ways to skin the cat if as stated as well one exercises proper money/trade management, that it can lead to averaging 10%... over the very short term.. over the long term, that is another thing... but as I stated before... not impossible..

it is easy to get on a soapbox and claim facts without true scientific measure, and it seems to me that you are more interest on arguing your point than debating your point... so this thread is now getting unproductive...

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 MetalTrade 
 
 
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sysot1t View Post
s

I have a few friends that run hedge funds, and plenty of them that trade for hedgefunds and those that run technologies for hedge funds and the reality is that they would certainly laugh at 10%per day because though they take risk, they have investors to account to and wont risk more than what they should... besides HF deal with way different strategies from those in this forum...so let's not necessarily compare the wanna be trader (ourselves) and the true professional trader that is Series 3 & 7 and has been properly trained and funded to trade with firm capital...

What are they aiming for daily ?

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 sysot1t 
 
 
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MetalTrade View Post
What are they aiming for daily ?

they dont care about daily, they aim for monthly or quarterly depending on the performance payout structure... lots of people tend to forget why hedge funds came about... yes, there are high frequency HFs.. but the majority use the short time frames to establish positions when in reality they are looking at a bit longer timeframe... which can be days to months ..

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sysot1t View Post
says who?

first of all, $300K in the bank and $3K on the account is not under cap... heck, personally I split my accounts across FCM's and I dont keep all my capital on those accounts... if you look at one account, you might think I am under cap, but the reality is that I am not. The whole point of being properly capitalized is that you wont be out of the game with a streak of bad losses, even if you have to transfer more capital to the trading account, the trader with $300K on the bank is not undercap..

so not following your logic... and more importantly, if the trader is ok with the risk, then what is it to you?

you make some good statements, but you are still not getting the point... as TMFT stated, and I have stated before, you are attempting to impose your opinion that could be right or wrong...

I have a few friends that run hedge funds, and plenty of them that trade for hedgefunds and those that run technologies for hedge funds and the reality is that they would certainly laugh at 10%per day because though they take risk, they have investors to account to and wont risk more than what they should... besides HF deal with way different strategies from those in this forum...so let's not necessarily compare the wanna be trader (ourselves) and the true professional trader that is Series 3 & 7 and has been properly trained and funded to trade with firm capital...

still, in the end that it cant be done is your opinion ... and you seem to hide behind the "it is proven because of risk, your account would be blown" ... which is not crazy, but again, your opinion and nothing more... just like the myth of 99% of traders fail... when in reality it is 99% of undecapitalized, unpreppared, uneducated wanna be traders that fail... but every one out there without the brassballs will say that everyone fails because they failed...

what you seem to miss as well is that one can actually trade all day across multiple markets, focusing on one at a time, and actually average that 10% per day .. when starting with a small $3K account (and to me small is $50K fYI)... there are so many ways to skin the cat if as stated as well one exercises proper money/trade management, that it can lead to averaging 10%... over the very short term.. over the long term, that is another thing... but as I stated before... not impossible..

it is easy to get on a soapbox and claim facts without true scientific measure, and it seems to me that you are more interest on arguing your point than debating your point... so this thread is now getting unproductive...


There are people out there that think they will make a living off a $5k stake. They are undercapitalized. This is the reason they look for ridiculous returns and blow their accounts doing so. This is the reason that the internet is full of 10% per day nonsense. It is the undercapitalization that causes people to seek this stuff and repeat it.

Now - you say there is no scientific method in my posts. On the other hand, I don't see any counter arguments using the same scientific measure you seem to hold so highly. You make not a single point in favour of 10% per day being possible, yet you say it is possible.

It's all nice "having a dream" but you need to trade reality. Trading isn't a mathematical endeavour or a science. It is an art/sport. Making a profit isn't a science. This is why engineers fail at trading. They try to resolve it with math/science.

Now - as for this point:

"what you seem to miss as well is that one can actually trade all day across multiple markets, focusing on one at a time, and actually average that 10% per day .. when starting with a small $3K account"

This is not true - nobody does it. You cant' do it, I can't do it and neither can anyone on this forum. It SOUNDS possible but it isn't. You'd have hundreds of thousands of dollars in less than 2 months and you would not have hit any scalability issues at that level.

Let's take the $3k. There are 2 ways to return 10% per day.

1 - lots of small trades. If you do this with $3k, the commissions/spreads would represent a very large portion of your profits, which in turn would push up your required win rate to lofty levels.
2 - one or two big trades. Commissions/spreads would be less of an issue but your issue would be the amount of profit needed from each trade. It would force you to put on a large proportion of your stake for each trade.

Both options end with the same result on a $3k account - a balance of zero.Now, of course, if 50,000 people tried it - one would succeed through sheer chance. This is survivorship bias at play.

If you think 10% from a $3k account is 'easy' - then why not show us - just 5 days would be enough.

By the way - I hope all participants are enjoying this as much as me....

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 Eric j 
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DionysusToast View Post
By the way - I hope all participants are enjoying this as much as me....

Completely enjoying it . A good debate always brings light to what should be focussed on .

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  #53 (permalink)
 sysot1t 
 
 
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DionysusToast View Post
There are people out there that think they will make a living off a $5k stake. They are undercapitalized. This is the reason they look for ridiculous returns and blow their accounts doing so. This is the reason that the internet is full of 10% per day nonsense. It is the undercapitalization that causes people to seek this stuff and repeat it.

I dont promote anyone to trade with $5K...as I have said, what I consider a min account is $50K... nothing less. properly cap to me is $100K... however, there is nothing wrong with $5K accounts, as long as one trades and grows the account... $5K to me is basically around what I pay for market data and tools every single year...


DionysusToast View Post
Now - you say there is no scientific method in my posts. On the other hand, I don't see any counter arguments using the same scientific measure you seem to hold so highly. You make not a single point in favour of 10% per day being possible, yet you say it is possible.

English is not my first language, but I think I am more than clear when I state that I am offering an opinion and that you are offering an opinion (that you think is factual)... I dont have to offer prove of opinions unless I claim them as facts, which you are the one doing.. so given you have facts, please produce them.. and please note that what I dont agree with you is on your statement that it cant be done... not going to repeat myself again, you can read the prior posts.


DionysusToast View Post
It's all nice "having a dream" but you need to trade reality. Trading isn't a mathematical endeavour or a science. It is an art/sport. Making a profit isn't a science. This is why engineers fail at trading. They try to resolve it with math/science.

hmmmm.. interesting... art/sport implies luck... trading is not about luck, is actually about having a mathematical edge... most retail traders dont have that edge.. plenty of trading firms do... and btw, the reason that most (not all) engineers might fail at trading is because of money management and because some cant properly evaluate risk.. I am not going to say that a chem eng can trade like a mech eng can.. to me an analytically math inclined mind will make good quants and find math edges that you cant trade because it requires technology that you dont even have access to or cant afford...


DionysusToast View Post

Now - as for this point:

"what you seem to miss as well is that one can actually trade all day across multiple markets, focusing on one at a time, and actually average that 10% per day .. when starting with a small $3K account"

This is not true - nobody does it. You cant' do it, I can't do it and neither can anyone on this forum. It SOUNDS possible but it isn't. You'd have hundreds of thousands of dollars in less than 2 months and you would not have hit any scalability issues at that level.

Let's take the $3k. There are 2 ways to return 10% per day.

1 - lots of small trades. If you do this with $3k, the commissions/spreads would represent a very large portion of your profits, which in turn would push up your required win rate to lofty levels.
2 - one or two big trades. Commissions/spreads would be less of an issue but your issue would be the amount of profit needed from each trade. It would force you to put on a large proportion of your stake for each trade.

Both options end with the same result on a $3k account - a balance of zero.Now, of course, if 50,000 people tried it - one would succeed through sheer chance. This is survivorship bias at play.

If you think 10% from a $3k account is 'easy' - then why not show us - just 5 days would be enough.

By the way - I hope all participants are enjoying this as much as me....

first of all, I dont know what you pay for comms, but I can guarantee you that comms would not represent a "large" portion of profits as long as you can negotiate properly with an FCM, I have no loyalty to FCM's ... I use heavily the ones that give me the best comms without having to register ... and I am not saying trade with a 50% or less winning rate at a high frequency, that is just plain stupid to even suggest/comment/or think about... everyone on this forum complains about their comms, but they are just the cost of doing business, and they can easily be controller and negotiated if your account size and your trade size warrants it.. of course, you wont get 10c comms if you trade 5 contracts a day.. that is just plain unprofitable to the fcm... but try trading 500+ RT per day.. you will see how you are viewed differently.


my original point still stands... and this is getting boring btw, as you have not contributed anything new to your argument.

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Sysot

I will ignore your 'boring' comment as I am indeed adding to this as we go.

Day trading IS a sport. It is much closer to a sport than to an engineering discipline. Like a sport, you improve with practice. Like a sport luck plays a very small part in your ongoing success. Like a sport, if you try something different every day you get nowhere. Engineers approach trading as a problem with a mathematical solution. Hence the prevelance of people trying hopelessly to put together automated systems. They do this because the thought of uncertainty kills the engineering mind.

Of all the profitable day traders I know - not a single one has a mechanical/mathematical system. They are profitable as a result of hard work, study, and experience. It is that experience that makes someone with 10+ years trade a system effortlessly when you can give that system to a novice and he'll fail - even though it's the same system. This is the nature of day trading - a lot of it is in the gut. A bit like a sport

Quants mostly work on risk analysis. A common misconception is that quants dream up mechanical systems all day. This is not the case. Most mechanical systems are not in any way related to the type of directional positions that retail traders trade. Arbitrage and predatory algos with all of the infrastrucure required to get in first would not be around if it were possible to just dream up directional systems based on TA - which is what your average programmer cum trader tries to do (and fails).

As for fees. Let's say you have a system that wins 60% of the time. You place 30 trades for 100 shares each and you average $10 per trade. You will have made $300 before fees. There is the 10%. Now - if you consider the fees of around $60, you will see that you now need to make $12 per trade - an additional 20% per trade. This is where fees kill you on the multiple small trade approach.

If you are saying that someone with a $3000 account (your example, not mine) can make 10% a day trading multiple markets and that fees are NOT an issue, then please show how. It is the nature of the small account that they attract higher commissions than someone with a large account.

The fact is - this is just one of many things standing in the way of the dream. Like I say - as soon as you look at the realities of trading a $3k account with a goal of 10% per day, you can see why it's doomed to failure.

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  #55 (permalink)
 sysot1t 
 
 
Posts: 1,176 since Nov 2009


DionysusToast View Post
Day trading IS a sport. It is much closer to a sport than to an engineering discipline. Like a sport, you improve with practice. Like a sport luck plays a very small part in your ongoing success. Like a sport, if you try something different every day you get nowhere. Engineers approach trading as a problem with a mathematical solution. Hence the prevelance of people trying hopelessly to put together automated systems. They do this because the thought of uncertainty kills the engineering mind.

over the long term, retail traders auto systems will fail...most are overoptimized.. so we are in agreement that it is hopeless for retail to autotrade trying to gain an edge on things they dont understand. You are confusing two things though... trading and day trading.. please know they are to different things.. how about this... try day trading 500 contracts on Futures without a clear mathematical edge and only on your gut and see what happens..

I didnt play sports when little to be honest, and I care little for sports besides MMA... but sports are not the only things that improve with practice, everything in life improves with practice and hard work.


DionysusToast View Post
Of all the profitable day traders I know - not a single one has a mechanical/mathematical system. They are profitable as a result of hard work, study, and experience. It is that experience that makes someone with 10+ years trade a system effortlessly when you can give that system to a novice and he'll fail - even though it's the same system. This is the nature of day trading - a lot of it is in the gut. A bit like a sport

in this we agree, but as I said... nothing to do with sports, that is just plain and simply life... take an unexperienced operator and put him/her in charge of anything and they will fail... trading, running a restaurant, doing taxes, anything.. they will simply fail without having a clue of what they are doing.


DionysusToast View Post
Quants mostly work on risk analysis. A common misconception is that quants dream up mechanical systems all day. This is not the case. Most mechanical systems are not in any way related to the type of directional positions that retail traders trade. Arbitrage and predatory algos with all of the infrastrucure required to get in first would not be around if it were possible to just dream up directional systems based on TA - which is what your average programmer cum trader tries to do (and fails).

there are many different types of quants.. not all are FRMs.. and they dont "dream mechanical systems" ... never stated any of the things you are stating... and Quants dont work on directional systems, actually let me re-phrase that.. I dont know any quants that work on directional systems.. they exploit inefficiences on the markets, which last seconds.. retail cant compete, period... I have taken quant classes to understand what it was all about.. and #1, they dont use EasyLanguage, or NT7, or even MC.... they use MatLab and R or even K to do their analysis... and their OMS are written from scratch for the most part and they build their own orderbook... so no, retail has no chance when competing with quants and most people cant begin to understand what a quant does and what their support team does...



DionysusToast View Post
As for fees. Let's say you have a system that wins 60% of the time. You place 30 trades for 100 shares each and you average $10 per trade. You will have made $300 before fees. There is the 10%. Now - if you consider the fees of around $60, you will see that you now need to make $12 per trade - an additional 20% per trade. This is where fees kill you on the multiple small trade approach.

actually, 60% would still kill the account IMO... more like 70-80%, ideally 90%+ would make that scenario work.. but then again, I dont trade 300 shares and if we are talking equities.. PDT rules would require 25K+ as you should well know, so $3K account wont even be able to trade 30 times a day... the only market for undercap people is futures and fx... and that is why there are so many "vendors" out there promoting the next gold rush in futures..


DionysusToast View Post
If you are saying that someone with a $3000 account (your example, not mine) can make 10% a day trading multiple markets and that fees are NOT an issue, then please show how. It is the nature of the small account that they attract higher commissions than someone with a large account.

The fact is - this is just one of many things standing in the way of the dream. Like I say - as soon as you look at the realities of trading a $3k account with a goal of 10% per day, you can see why it's doomed to failure.

$3K was not my example, it is the OP account size, please read prior posts, and I do think that someone with a $3K account can make $300 per day if they trade properly... and you still miss the point... I state that it is possible.. and that no-one should tell you that it is not... it is up to the individual to determine his/her risk tolerance and trade as he/she please.. nothing more.

trading a $3K account would violate my rules, so I wont do it... my rules call for me only risking 1-3% per trade, as I like to protect my capital.. but I would not certainly tell someone else not to do if that is what they were ok with... which is the point that you are missing..

let's use some other example...

the #1 legal drug... alcohol... when taken in moderation, it is something good.. wont destroy your body... however, if you drink too much not only will it destroy your body over time, but it will certainly kill you...

the same way that I wont tell someone not to drink until they destroy their liver and die, is the same way that I wont tell anyone that they cant achieve 10% daily if that is what they think they can get...

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 MetalTrade 
 
 
Posts: 1,081 since May 2010

Why is it better to trade with a 100k account than with a 50k account ?

I have the tendency to think that your losing days are bigger with your 100k account, because your account 'can stand it'

if you trade 10 lots a time, why would a 100k account be better than a 50k account ?

When you trade size, like 20 or 50 cars a time or more, most brokers need you to keep a $1000 margin.

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  #57 (permalink)
 sysot1t 
 
 
Posts: 1,176 since Nov 2009


MetalTrade View Post
Why is it better to trade with a 100k account than with a 50k account ?

I have the tendency to think that your losing days are bigger with your 100k account, because your account 'can stand it'

if you trade 10 lots a time, why would a 100k account be better than a 50k account ?

When you trade size, like 20 or 50 cars a time or more, most brokers need you to keep a $1000 margin.

1%-3% per trade is my rule... # of contracts is determined based on the ATR % of the day I am trying to capture for the given instrument and it is decided daily... at least when I do futures, options is a different formula for me.. and I only trade with full margin most of the time as I only take advantage of the day trade margin if I am like 100% certain the odds are on my favor and then I push the pedal... something along the lines of all conditions align and the prob of going my way is like 95+% and I put the initial position and then my trade goes my way with force, I add more to it...

size to me is really more like 100+ contracts... specially on ES... which I assume you are talking about... if it was a different market, then yes, 20-50 would be decent size... anyhow, I am not trading "size" in any event.. I range from 5-10 contracts on average.. just because one has enough funds to trade 50 contracs, doesnt mean one has to if the rules (one's own) dont allow you to.. of course, all my opinion... in reality, you could trade 50 cars with $50K account ... nothing stopping you from that, just not my plan.

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  #58 (permalink)
 sysot1t 
 
 
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MetalTrade View Post
Why is it better to trade with a 100k account than with a 50k account ?

also, as Dio has pointed out, a proper capitalization should enable you to survive a truly bad streak and drawdown... which will happen eventually... and also, just because you have a large account doesnt mean that you should be careless... if 5% was lost on a day, I am stopping ... but I will certainly stop myself before that if I just see my head is not on the game.. heck, I trade only when my mind set is right... like today for example, I was not in the mood to trade... so I got up at 6AM EST as usual... and went back to bed until 8AM and then I am just doing chores around the house... today was a nice day to trade IMO, but I can guarantee you I would have lost since I would have gambled just to entertain myself (I am super bored today, which is why I am on the forum).

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felixtjung
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DionysusToast View Post
I have yet to meet a single trader that is making a profit from automation. Automation is not really a cure for psychological issues, it is mostly a dead end. In my experience people attempt automation as a substitute for learning how to trade, not to gain consistency.

What an arrogance!

1. It's widely known that major bank implements automatic forex arbitrage strategy.
2. Tom Basso is known to automate all of the order generation.
3. There are many hedge funds who implements fully automatic trading system. Many of them are pretty successful e.g. CRT (which is even featured in Market's wizard).
4. I myself generate the signal automatically, but I still have to enter it manually because I haven't found a good reliable way to interface with the bloated TWS APIs. (As a point of reference, I profit 100% per year on average with swing trading 5 minutes / day.)

At the end of the day, it's the intelligence shall prevail. Brute force (thinking hard working is everything) won't do any good thesedays, especially when computer is around. A lot of repetitive stuff is better done by computer.


sysot1t View Post
over the long term, retail traders auto systems will fail...most are overoptimized.. so we are in agreement that it is hopeless for retail to autotrade trying to gain an edge on things they dont understand. You are confusing two things though... trading and day trading.. please know they are to different things.. how about this... try day trading 500 contracts on Futures without a clear mathematical edge and only on your gut and see what happens.

It seems everyone has different belief about this. My believe is the exact opposite. I believe not all auto-trade-system are over optimized. If you are talking about things like FAPTurbo, or Megadroid or other similar software then yes. But the experienced trader can trade auto-trade-system too which they can ensure it's not over-optimized.

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 sysot1t 
 
 
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felixtjung View Post
It seems everyone has different belief about this. My believe is the exact opposite. I believe not all auto-trade-system are over optimized. If you are talking about things like FAPTurbo, or Megadroid or other similar software then yes. But the experienced trader can trade auto-trade-system too which they can ensure it's not over-optimized.

I am referring to retail (anything you can buy off the internet basically) ... not to what a knowledgeable/sophisticated trader/prop desk with years of experience might do... start-arb/rebate trading/etc can only be done auto in todays markets... to put it in other words, not my own... there are now algos that specialized on sniffing other algos out there... a nice arms race where technology is the weapon on the market... and the ones with the best technology win..

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 sysot1t 
 
 
Posts: 1,176 since Nov 2009


felixtjung View Post

4. I myself generate the signal automatically, but I still have to enter it manually because I haven't found a good reliable way to interface with the bloated TWS APIs. (As a point of reference, I profit 100% per year on average with swing trading 5 minutes / day.)

you should look at sterling for interfacing your OMS...

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felixtjung
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sysot1t View Post
you should look at sterling for interfacing your OMS...

This is probably off-topic, but that looks good. But, it request for password on the installer? >.< I guess I have to request the demo. Is there any easy interface to C#?

Thanks again

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  #63 (permalink)
 sysot1t 
 
 
Posts: 1,176 since Nov 2009


felixtjung View Post
Is there any easy interface to C#?

yes, but there will be a latency issue... albeit small, which might not be an issue depending on what you are doing.. from my bookmarks..

https://sterlingfinancialsystems.com/documents/Documentation/ActiveX_API_Guide.pdf
https://sterlingtrader.com/documents/Sterling_ActiveX_API_Guide.pdf

if you are using IBKR for futures mainly, then look at the TT FIX Adapter and you can then go with Advantage Futures or any other TT FIX Adapter provider.,, either way you will pay the same $0.20c RT per trans, but what will make a difference will be the provider(FCM) gateway...

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 ThatManFromTexas 
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DionysusToast View Post
You are entitled to that opinion. Still - I have yet to see scientific proof from you that mine is an opinion and not real fact.

Of course, if you can prove beyond doubt that this is just an opinion of mine, I will be willing to look at the results of your analysis.

Until that point, your opinion as regards my statements being opinion or fact is just that - your opinion.

My facts, therefore remain unchallenged and should be seen as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.



As are the laws of trading TMFT. Unless you want to show how risk and reward are not associated.

And I got up from my nap for this...

You have stated your opinion, Sir... not facts...

I stated my opinion ...of your post.... which is my opinion ... and that's a fact

I never said you were wrong... only lacking supporting documentation to show your opinion is factual


Like my momma always said," Son, Your mouth ain't no Prayer Book and everything that comes out of it ain't gospel."

Reminds me a lot of newly minted MBA's... they're not always right... but they are never in doubt...

I am sure this conversation will carry on long after I'm gone... without me...

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TMFT

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My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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felixtjung
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
And I got up from my nap for this...

You have stated your opinion, Sir... not facts...

I stated my opinion ...of your post.... which is my opinion ... and that's a fact

I never said you were wrong... only lacking supporting documentation to show your opinion is factual


Like my momma always said," Son, Your mouth ain't no Prayer Book and everything that comes out of it ain't gospel."

Reminds me a lot of newly minted MBA's... they're not always right... but they are never in doubt...

I am sure this conversation will carry on long after I'm gone... without me...

Regards,
TMFT

Actually, I'm really tired of this pointless arguments. So, i'm right behind you.

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In terms of $50k vs $100k account - no real difference in my opinion. What is important is how much you risk. As accounts get smaller & smaller, then it is harder and harder to make a reasonable risk.

There are 2 issues with undercapitalisation.

1) Anyone with $3,$5,$10k who wants to make a living trading is undercapitalised.
2) Anyone, with ANY account balance, who attempts to make 10% per day will blow up.

Now - if 10% from $3k is possible, which some people here are saying. Then let's first figure out how it could be achieved:

1) Many small trades across different markets.
2) A couple of large trades a day.

Option 1 - I gave an example how in stocks this would eat away at you with commissions.

So - please, those proposing option 1, please let us know:
i) What markets would be traded?
ii) What would the typical time in trade be?
iii) How many trades per day?

Option 2 - a couple of large trades per day.

For those proposing option 2, please let us know
i) What markets would be traded
ii) The percentage return you would aim for per trade and the risk you would assume to do that (of course remember that you need to trade on a daily basis)
iii) Win rate

If you do that, I will point out where the size of the account will be overcome with the attempts to make the large return.

In this way, we will scratch the surface and make things a little more scientific.

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 er2wizard 
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The key in a nutshell is consistency. Without it someone has no business even trading live. Anyone that has consistency will blow your theory right out of the water.

“The more I am around people, the more I love my dogs.” ~Author Unknown
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felixtjung
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DionysusToast View Post
In terms of $50k vs $100k account - no real difference in my opinion. What is important is how much you risk. As accounts get smaller & smaller, then it is harder and harder to make a reasonable risk.

There are 2 issues with undercapitalisation.

1) Anyone with $3,$5,$10k who wants to make a living trading is undercapitalised.
2) Anyone, with ANY account balance, who attempts to make 10% per day will blow up.

Now - if 10% from $3k is possible, which some people here are saying. Then let's first figure out how it could be achieved:

1) Many small trades across different markets.
2) A couple of large trades a day.

Option 1 - I gave an example how in stocks this would eat away at you with commissions.

So - please, those proposing option 1, please let us know:
i) What markets would be traded?
ii) What would the typical time in trade be?
iii) How many trades per day?

Option 2 - a couple of large trades per day.

For those proposing option 2, please let us know
i) What markets would be traded
ii) The percentage return you would aim for per trade and the risk you would assume to do that (of course remember that you need to trade on a daily basis)
iii) Win rate

If you do that, I will point out where the size of the account will be overcome with the attempts to make the large return.

In this way, we will scratch the surface and make things a little more scientific.

What's the point arguing about all this stuff if you cage your way of thinking like that. The truth is no matter what people say, you'll ignore it because you have made commitment to your own self that you'll persist no matter what the cost is.

What we are dicussing is definitely what we DO NOT call "normal return rate". IT IS ABNORMAL, hence, you can't use normal way of thinking and trading to achieve that kind of result.

In order to achieve ABNORMAL RESULT, you have to think and trade ABNORMALLY.

Now that you have indulged my curiousity and I feel challenged to attempt this in live trading myself.

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felixtjung View Post
What's the point arguing about all this stuff if you cage your way of thinking like that. The truth is no matter what people say, you'll ignore it because you have made commitment to your own self that you'll persist no matter what the cost is.

What we are dicussing is definitely what we DO NOT call "normal return rate". IT IS ABNORMAL, hence, you can't use normal way of thinking and trading to achieve that kind of result.

In order to achieve ABNORMAL RESULT, you have to think and trade ABNORMALLY.

Now that you have indulged my curiousity and I feel challenged to attempt this in live trading myself.

It seems that people are happy with an unscientific "is possible" but not with an unscientific "is not possible".

Thus far we have agreed on "10% per day isn't scaleable" - and no-one is asking for scientific evidence of this as it is accepted, although the boundaries of scaleable are yet to be defined. In my opinion - if you turn $3k into $2m in 50 days, it is scaleable.

If we get into the details about hypothetical systems, we can examine the impact of inescapable factors, such as commissions,spreads and time on these systems.

So - why not look into what people think is possible ? which seems to be 10% on a small account. We can examine this and the factors that would impact the performance. Lets narrow down the types of system that could be implemented and look at the roadblocks.

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 vvhg 
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I just love this discussion! Really enjoying it!

Is it possible?

If you would try this for eternity using random entries and exits, there will be some period where you make 10%/day.
But as none of us will trade that long, its rather theoretical (and you would blow up countless accounts, no matter what size).

Is it scalable?

First of all, who really cares as it is (at least practically) impossible?
Anyways... here we go:
If you would achieve 10%/day for 100 days in a row and start with $100,000 you would end up with $1,252,783,000.

So you couldn't play that game for very long anyways!

Why not go with -10%/day? It's much easier!

vvhg

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felixtjung
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For small account, the scalability is not an issue because it's more unlikely it'll move the market.

It seems you miss the whole point of using market's money. Market's money is anti-martingle by nature which means you starts off just like any normal trading strategy. What this means is you don't try to make 10% per day at the first phase. As you have profit, you can risk more and more. Of course, "your profit" might get "wiped out" in which case you are back to your original capital which means you start small again just like any other strategy.

The striking difference only happens when the profit growth big. In this phase, profit growth is definitely bigger than 10% per day. This phase will make up for the first phase when you produce less that 10% per day.

The difference between market's money and highly leveraged trading is really about the total risk against your initial capital. It's more unlikely you'll blow up your account using market's money.

I did some tests about it few years back then and it basically breaks my jaw to think such result it's even possible with such little risk. Of course, there are certain prerequisites to use this in the first place.

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 tigertrader 
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Just my opinion, but this is thread should be put to bed, unless it's meant to be some kind of ironic combination of ideas put forth to provide levity for the serious trader. It's not only lame, but has the potential to be injurious to those new to trading and unaccustomed to proper money management .

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felixtjung View Post
For small account, the scalability is not an issue because it's more unlikely it'll move the market.

It seems you miss the whole point of using market's money. Market's money is anti-martingle by nature which means you starts off just like any normal trading strategy. What this means is you don't try to make 10% per day at the first phase. As you have profit, you can risk more and more. Of course, "your profit" might get "wiped out" in which case you are back to your original capital which means you start small again just like any other strategy.

The striking difference only happens when the profit growth big. In this phase, profit growth is definitely bigger than 10% per day. This phase will make up for the first phase when you produce less that 10% per day.

The difference between market's money and highly leveraged trading is really about the total risk against your initial capital. It's more unlikely you'll blow up your account using market's money.

I did some tests about it few years back then and it basically breaks my jaw to think such result it's even possible with such little risk. Of course, there are certain prerequisites to use this in the first place.


Using the markets money. I presume you are talking about making some profits and then using them to gamble recklessly right?

Or - in other words - make $1000 profit, then withdraw the original capital. Then put on a series of bets (mean reversion would keep you going longest) with small targets and insanely large stops. Or maybe sell credit spreads. Either way something where risk dwarfes reward which also equals a high win rate.

Either way - when you place bets like these, you are gambling and the laws of probability should give you a winning streak but also ensure that you will hand it all back.

Now - if I am wrong in my presumptions - why not spell out what you are doing and tell us how to implement your version of "using the markets money" in order to return 10% per day. Then we can properly analyze your methods and look at the probabilities.

Cheers

Pete

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tigertrader View Post
Just my opinion, but this is thread should be put to bed, unless it's meant to be some kind of ironic combination of ideas, put forth to provide levity for the serious trader. It's not only lame, but has the potential to be injurious to those new to trading and unaccustomed to proper money management .

I understand your issue but this is a forum.Why is everyone either 'bored' or asking for the thread to be closed?

No discussions = no forum.

People can choose not to participate. Personally, I think people will learn a lot if the "pro 10%ers" put forward their view on the types of system that could earn 10%, then we could look at the potential pitfalls.

Thus far all we have is "10% a day IS possible - and it will remain possible until you prove it isn't".

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vvhg View Post

Why not go with -10%/day? It's much easier!

vvhg

LMAO! This is indeed very true....

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felixtjung
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I hate to say this, but let's just put an end to this as this is getting pretty boring. Not many people pay respect to money management anyway so it's pointless to continue this discussion.

What? "That's not true, I believe money management is important". I hear you. Ask this to yourselves, how much time have you spent on your entry and exit rules vs how much you have spent to develop money management part? This fact should speak for itself. As for reference, expert believe trading consists of 60% psychology, 30% money management and 10% system. (money management is rated 3 times more important than system!)

Just believe what you want. If you don't believe 10% per day is not possible, then it's probably not possible for you. I know my own score and I'm pretty confident with my skill.

As much as I love to share, I'm just getting pretty irritated from being bashed everytime I decided to share something useful by people who don't even know what they are talking about. No offense though. Peace.

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 Big Mike 
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Those that wish to stop participating in the thread should do so instead of arguing. Those that wish to continue participating should keep their posts civil and respect the opinions of others.

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felixtjung View Post
I hate to say this, but let's just put an end to this as this is getting pretty boring. Not many people pay respect to money management anyway so it's pointless to continue this discussion.

What? "That's not true, I believe money management is important". I hear you. Ask this to yourselves, how much time have you spent on your entry and exit rules vs how much you have spent to develop money management part? This fact should speak for itself. As for reference, expert believe trading consists of 60% psychology, 30% money management and 10% system. (money management is rated 3 times more important than system!)

Just believe what you want. If you don't believe 10% per day is not possible, then it's probably not possible for you. I know my own score and I'm pretty confident with my skill.

As much as I love to share, I'm just getting pretty irritated from being bashed everytime I decided to share something useful by people who don't even know what they are talking about. No offense though. Peace.

You have come out with a number of comments on here about 'using the markets money'.

Why not then explain what you mean? No-one is bashing you - just asking you to put some substance behind your posts.

You have said the following:


Quoting 
What this means is you don't try to make 10% per day at the first phase. As you have profit, you can risk more and more. Of course, "your profit" might get "wiped out" in which case you are back to your original capital which means you start small again just like any other strategy

I interpret this as 'make some winnings and gamble them' - of course if I am wrong, why not explain?

Now you have been asked to explain you are saying the conversation is boring and that people here don't know what they are talking about.

Please - take the stage and educate us.

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 tigertrader 
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felixtjung View Post
I hate to say this, but let's just put an end to this as this is getting pretty boring. Not many people pay respect to money management anyway so it's pointless to continue this discussion.

What? "That's not true, I believe money management is important". I hear you. Ask this to yourselves, how much time have you spent on your entry and exit rules vs how much you have spent to develop money management part? This fact should speak for itself. As for reference, expert believe trading consists of 60% psychology, 30% money management and 10% system. (money management is rated 3 times more important than system!)

Just believe what you want. If you don't believe 10% per day is not possible, then it's probably not possible for you. I know my own score and I'm pretty confident with my skill.

As much as I love to share, I'm just getting pretty irritated from being bashed everytime I decided to share something useful by people who don't even know what they are talking about. No offense though. Peace.

I get it, you read Tharp, maybe even Ralph Vince. Probably neither one of them ever traded their own accounts successfully or managed money successfully. They are academicians whose only positive P&Ls are their book royalties.

Nevertheless, I am not arguing the importance of position sizing and expectancy or the role of MM in any trading system. What I am saying is that if you trade or manage a serious amount of capital, you cannot return 10% per day over any protracted period of time.

Show me an audited 2 year track record where a "substantial " amount of capital was traded/managed where these kind of returns were generated, and I will have $100 MM for you to manage the next week.

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tigertrader View Post
Show me an audited 2 year track record where a "substantial " amount of capital was traded/managed and these kind of returns were generated, and I will have $100 MM for you to manage the next week.

Not only that. Your broker will also be calling you with offers.

Seruously - if you make this kind of return, it wont go unnoticed.

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 tigertrader 
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DionysusToast View Post
Not only that. Your broker will also be calling you with offers.

Seruously - if you make this kind of return, it wont go unnoticed.

You might even be invited to become a "talking head" on CNBC, or a "celebrity apprentice" on the Donald's show - but that's reality T.V. - this is more like Fantasy Island!

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 dutchbookmaker 
NYC
 
 
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Why not 9%? Why not 11%?
+/- 1% is a rather enormous figure when talking daily compounding.

Why stop at daily goals? Why not shoot for .75% every half hour during cash hours?

".125% every 5 minute bar is possible"
What does that even mean beyond being a foolish and laughable goal? As if the EV for each 5 minute period for your system is going to be the same..or 15, 30, 60, 127 minutes, daily, monthly, yearly...whatever.

This whole way of thinking is absurd and measuring daily return is a completely arbitrary time frame that has zero meaning.

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 dutchbookmaker 
NYC
 
 
Posts: 187 since Dec 2010

The reason discussions like this come up on trading boards is because of ignorance of Thorp(forget Tharp) and Ralph Vince, hardly because of them...Thorp's track record is quite impressive and Ralph Vince work is based on extensions/adaption to Thorp/Kelly.
I'm sure Rentech uses more advanced MM techniques than Vince but they are not writing books on them, ever.
The reason we have Ralph Vince books is because he can not trade, if he could he would have never published. Taking that as a knock on his MM ideas is absurd.
I posted a Simmons talk no one seemed to care about, most analogy has nothing to do with markets when you actually get down to it.
I watched Jackass 3d this weekend, Steve O won then lost out on "Clown College"..
If you are trying to become a pro "trader" and not seeing yourself as a Clown....
Not sure what to tell you clown...go back to at least understand some probability theory?

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 nostrabus 
Salvador, Brazil
 
 
Posts: 16 since Mar 2011

Hello there

I would suggest to not set daily goals, (other then following your trading plan) and better set a weekly goal, because not every day is good to make money, when markets do not fit your plan it is best to not trade.

If you set daily goals that would force you to trade even on days that are not worth the risk

best wishes

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 Skrohira 
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Wonder why this thread stopped? Ryanb demonstrated that it is possible.

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  #86 (permalink)
iwillsurvive
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Let's see some examples

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 BlueTrin 
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Did anybody point out that 10% a day would mean that your pot would be 3590332871839% of its original size after 250 days ?

Making 10% a couple of times and then losing about the same amount of money does not mean that you made 10% a day consistently. Post 1 year of live trades and let's see if you made 10% a day with realistic leverage of your pot.

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  #88 (permalink)
Eric B
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I would be thrilled to make even half that each time I trade, which usually isn't on a daily basis either.
There is something to be said about the capitalization of a trader & risk aversion though.

Peter, I saw your post re: account size and making a living trading - what account size would you estimate is the minimum needed then? Just curious.

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