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Going Beyond Psychology to make Winning Trades and Nice Profits


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Going Beyond Psychology to make Winning Trades and Nice Profits

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  #1 (permalink)
 Shivaya 
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Winning Trades...Nice Profits...That's it really!

For 2011 I am further expanding my consciousness way beyond trading psychology and into the very core of why I trade.

In 1985 I worked for a merchant bank at a trading desk, we traded heating oil and stock index futures. I was a student of W.D.Gann and the bank purchased every course on Gann for me due to my good results. So I was paid to learn. In Gann's writings I came across The Tunnel Thru the Air and this passage set me on a what to many would be deemed a strange course.

'I have read the Book of Jonah thru very carefully, and I believe that I understand what the Saviour meant when he said:

"No sign shall be given, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

I believe there was a secret meaning in what he said; that the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. I believe that a man who understands the meaning of that has all the power under heaven and earth, as the Bible says he shall have. I believe that that is the key to the interpretation of the future. I am sure I have found it and know how to apply it.'


Now Mr Gann, exactly what do you mean by that? The key to the future? The Time Factor?

As a teenager I travelled to India and stayed in ashrams, temples, swam in the ganges, trekked the Himalayas and met many amazing masters from India and Tibet. So I was well versed in philosophy and meditation.

So I decided to study The Book of Jonah. Nothing!

Then I decided to become Jonah. I retreated to my meditation attic and stayed there for 3 days and 3 nights (in the belly of the whale)

During this time I learned many things about the nature of what Gann was writing about. I returned to my trading desk and had 34 winning trades in a row. But...I did not know how I was doing it, and worse, I did not think it would continue. So the 35th trade was a loss and I was relieved.

I then decided to learn everything about the markets and maybe one day I might figure out how I did what I did. The long spiral journey had begun.

I soon realized that the feeling of an impending loss is far more intense than actually losing money. Working as a broker was a way to be in the business without too much risk. So I became a broker.

For years I met every conceivable type of trader with systems as crazy as you can imagine. I read every book on psychology and searched everywhere for the answer.

I saw the coming of electronic trading and positioned myself for a return to actual trading. I was too early, broadband was unreliable and I had no skills in electronic execution. Gradually technology improved, software appeared, I designed some unique studies and set about learning to trade all over again with an electronic simulator. I already knew that making money is the by product of being a good consistent trader. That means making $200 per lot per day in my book. By now the majority of my trades were day trades with some swing trades over a few days.

Gradually I started to realize I was revisiting that state where my 34 winners in a row happened. But this time I understood. Now I was excited and enthused. I'm back to where it all started. Finally!

That state was simply ...Winning Trades...and...Nice Profits! Like a mantra or affirmation, I heard these words over and over. Trading is all about these two things. Just attract them! Being a consistent trader is an emotional journey not an analytical one. I had been a consistent trader years ago with no analysis skills, but I had emotional skills. Now I have great analysis skills and emotional skills. Yet there is more. I want to go on this journey and rediscover what I shelved years ago.

I keep my own private journal with all my ideas and results. I am huge on money management and edge ratio. So I have decided to open this thread on this very good forum for anyone interested in going deeper into consciousness and discovering the powerful beings we really are.

This is about going beyond psychology and the inner side to trading.

Om Tat Sat

Shivaya

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  #3 (permalink)
 Shivaya 
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What do I mean when I say Winning Trades and Nice Profits?

It is a sweet state of inner consciousness. I watch the price action and just wait. My mind is just scanning the charts and every now and then chants Winning Trades and nice profits. I'm telling my Inner Self that's what I am after. I want winning trades and some nice profits. This is a definite instruction. My genie goes after these.

This is not a battle or a war, this is simply living in a state of sweet consciousness. Once trading begins ALL distractions are gone. Years ago that was the phone, today it is the web. I have eliminated all distractions for when I trade. Most indicators are gone, most charts too, browsing the net a no-no, phone calls, comfort food and stimulating drinks. Gone! Only water and raw green juices along with fresh fruit and a few nuts during each trading session. Sorry...no coffee or doughnuts. I have discovered I am sharp on green smoothies and fresh fruit during trading. (Champions eat bananas, not doughnuts during the match)

Then a trade will just appear, not a pattern, or a setup, but a trade. There may be several clues on the screens, but there is an Inner Sweetness forming. A Knowing. This market wants to go UP! In a sense I have been able to tap into the consciousness of the market players and sense the next play. This feeling is so reliable I have to act, yet when I do, it's automatic. The finger just wants to click on the bid. Lightly to start, then listening to the feel, add more in the sweetness, then with some profits I take a few off and ride the rest. I eye some targets and then manage stops. That's it!

I have figured that a sweet inner state of consciousness attracts winning trades and nice profits. A fearful state attracts the opposite. So until I was able to trade in this sweet state I'd be going around in all sorts of emotional slippery dips. If I traded like someone has a pistol at my head, well I'll just burn out. There is no sweetness there. If sweetness is not satisfied, nothing is.

Shivaya

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 rtrade 
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Hey Shivaya, thanks for starting this thread. If you don't mind I would like to start where we left off from the other thread.

Remember the youtube video I linked... CLEAR THE MECHANISM where the pitcher is aging and everyone is saying he can't pitch and that he's all washed up and he should quit. Well, he creates this device that blocks out all distractions he calls "clear the mechanism" so he can strike out the batter.

I understand that that's what you're saying regarding "WINNING TRADES" inhale, "NICE PROFITS" exhale. That too is a device, and not just a device, but something deeper beyond the MINDS comprehension.

This is what you told me in the last post:

Hi RTrade,

I like the video scene. The player already has all the skills necessary........ He is no rookie. But he has a nagging mind like the rest of us. So he knows what to do, he knows he has already done it before and he knows that he needs to first get into the flow state.

The result is in the future. The future does not exist. Only this moment exists. He focuses on the process and not the result. Leave the result to God. This is science.


Well, I have to say, I kinda did it in today's trading. I was soooo upset with my performance in the last two weeks, taking stupid trades and listening to those NAGGING voices in my head like...

"Why did you do that?"...."Now that you're losing, what are going to do?"...."Are you going to post those losing results in your journal for the world to see?"......."You're an idiot, why didn't you take that trade?"....and the list goes on...or should I say the voices

But today, I decided to just trade the trades that I have skills necessary to take. After I took the trade, I set a target that I felt confident that it would reach. I sat calmly and listened to my mind, but I LET GO and LET GOD. And my trades that I felt would go my way, did. I did hear voices say take more trades but I said no to them today....interesting.

A trader named Fulcrum Trader said that he's so successful at trading that it's, and I quote, "BORING." And I see what he means by boring...trading is peaceful, like flying above the clouds, or like the video I linked, clear the mechanism...in the mist of yelling crowd filled stadium, the pitcher finds PEACE. A lot of successful athletes will call that being in the ZONE, where all they see is the objective and everything else is quite and peaceful.


So I will continue my practice of this device "WINNING TRADES" inhale, "NICE PROFITS" exhale. I will also reread Jonah, but most likely I'll listen to it on the audiobible.com. My diet consist of a pot of coffee in the morning with a bowl of oatmeal and raisins, but lately I'm just having 2 cups of coffee and the rest is green tea.

I will also rethink the WAR concept of trading I'll think of it from a different level of consciousness. I use to wonder about boxers giving the sign of the cross when he's about to pound his opponent silly, or when soldiers that go to war ready to kill pray to a God of Love and compassion. There must be some higher significance...

One thing that stuck in my mind in your last post was very universal and it was:

Makes no difference what faith you are. We all use the same mind and emotions.

Yes, so I want to be a peaceful trader or blissful trader or a bored trader if in the end leads to me trading for a living.

Besides, HEALTH is WEALTH

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
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 Shivaya 
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rtrade View Post
Hey Shivaya, thanks for starting this thread. If you don't mind I would like to start where we left off from the other thread.

I understand that that's what you're saying regarding "WINNING TRADES" inhale, "NICE PROFITS" exhale. That too is a device, and not just a device, but something deeper beyond the MINDS comprehension.

Exactly rTrade,

I hope this thread will help you along your journey to being a good trader. This is what we want to learn more about in this thread. What is this state we can reach? Great warriors reached it before battle. Fearless. Sports people tap into the zone, the flow but what is this? How do we get there? I am sure many other traders experience this state. I'd love anyone to share those here.

A part of me exists beyond this mind and body. That I call my Eternal Self. Some call it Soul or Inner Being. I am happy with whatever term is comfortable. The point is when I am in contact with this reality of me I trade really well.

The diet I use during the active hours of trading are to keep my body alive and free from digesting strange substances. I watch nature a great deal and notice that every creature in the wild just goes out there and eats raw food. So when I researched raw food there is a mountain of info. Like indicators I take what fits me now.

What helps me get into and stay within this State of Sweetness naturally? The key to understanding the Book of Jonah was in the 3 day/night fast that I did. I figured if Jonah was in the belly of whale he was forced to fast. So I fasted for that time and the realizations just popped in.

Always when great masters face a climax, they fast. In a way the raw food periods I do are fasting and cleansing. In trading I believe everything is linked, body, mind, soul. So first detox. A springtime raw food fast is a great way to begin the year.

Yes, profits can become very routine for those hitting their sweet spot. It is the goal we all seek. No one will last dealing with fear all day long. If I had to battle fear and greed I'd be long gone. I had to go into fear and dissolve it. Fear keeps everyone under control and making errors. A great trader knows you have arrived when fear is no longer present. And fear is never in the present.

Shivaya

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 Barrosco 
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Thanks Shivaya,
I will be here wanting to learn your experience.

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 Shivaya 
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What is the first thing we want when trading a market?

Live data. How do we get this? We have to log into a feed that supplies our favourite market.

News? Tune into a suitable news channel.

Profits? Tune your frequency to Winning Trades and Nice Profits. How?

Consistent thoughts of winning trades and nice profits maintains a "sweet in the zone feeling". This "feeling" guides us to right action. So what could that right action be? To begin with you might ask to be guided to good information.

Almost every valuable piece of information is now available somewhere on the net to help make us a winning trader. The trouble so is the junk. So we now get specific. What exactly do I want? I want information from actual winning traders who make good profits. Mantra becomes...Winning Traders... (who make)... Real Profits. Your higher self will arrange it. Believe it!

My goal always is to get into this State of Sweetness first and then trade. It does not matter what you use in the form of analysis, market profile, MACD, swings, averages, range, volume, renko, time. Sooner or later you will arrive at your own personal favourites. Then you will want to meet your real Self... who dwells within. Your first step every day is always going to be getting into the consciousness of sweetness and then trade.

Shivaya

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 cory 
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years ago a poster asked another to prove his record by posting both his winning and losing trades then I posted i only interest in his winning trades and others think I was just being crazy talk. Anyway what do you think about stop loss?.

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 Shivaya 
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years ago a poster asked another to prove his record by posting both his winning and losing trades then I posted i only interest in his winning trades and others think I was just being crazy talk. Anyway what do you think about stop loss?.

The Sweet Spot in trading will produce figures that are good to study. The favorable ratio between MAE and MFE is what keeps trading sweet for me. It is what I look at first in my trading log. Higher the better! This motivates me to go deeper into the sweet flow zone.

Shivaya

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 rtrade 
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Hey Shivaya,

Are you familiar with Charles Haanel? He's the guy that influenced Napoleon Hill, think and grow rich, to become who he is. Do you think Charles Haanel's work is related to going beyond the psychology and understanding that inner sweet spot? Because he has a course called the Master Key System, a 24 part system where you study 1 part per week. I wouldn't mind seeing if that'll assist in me getting to that SWEET SPOT when I trade. I believe the concepts are very universal. I've enclosed the whole course.

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
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 Shivaya 
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Hey Shivaya,

Are you familiar with Charles Haanel? He's the guy that influenced Napoleon Hill, think and grow rich, to become who he is. Do you think Charles Haanel's work is related to going beyond the psychology and understanding that inner sweet spot? Because he has a course called the Master Key System, a 24 part system where you study 1 part per week. I wouldn't mind seeing if that'll assist in me getting to that SWEET SPOT when I trade. I believe the concepts are very universal. I've enclosed the whole course.

Yes I am and I have done the course and have his book. Excellent material. I also have the original 1915 edition of Wallace Wattles Financial Success Through Creative Thought or The Science of Getting Rich, upon which The Secret was based. I looked for years to find an original. One day there it was in an old second hand bookstore for $4!

Finding a classic first edition is like a sweet spot moment. You wait for them. Priceless!

If you think of Support and Resistance you will get some clues.

By feeling good you accomplish the feeling of winning trades/nice profits. This supports you as a winning trader.
By feeling bad you accomplish the feeling of losing trades/losing money. This is your resistance to being a winning trader.

So how does a trader feel good after a loss? Or missing a move? Plenty more trades to come. I'll get the next one. Like you miss a train. Just get the next one.

As simple as it sounds, Consistent thoughts and feelings of Winning Trades and Nice Profits will bring them into your reality. All the strategies, ideas and information necessary for you to achieve this will manifest. You just have to believe it and be creative!

Shivaya

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 redratsal 
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Shivaya View Post
Yes I am and I have done the course and have his book. Excellent material. I also have the original 1915 edition of Wallace Wattles Financial Success Through Creative Thought or The Science of Getting Rich, upon which The Secret was based. I looked for years to find an original. One day there it was in an old second hand bookstore for $4!

Finding a classic first edition is like a sweet spot moment. You wait for them. Priceless!

If you think of Support and Resistance you will get some clues.

By feeling good you accomplish the feeling of winning trades/nice profits. This supports you as a winning trader.
By feeling bad you accomplish the feeling of losing trades/losing money. This is your resistance to being a winning trader.

So how does a trader feel good after a loss? Or missing a move? Plenty more trades to come. I'll get the next one. Like you miss a train. Just get the next one.

As simple as it sounds, Consistent thoughts and feelings of Winning Trades and Nice Profits will bring them into your reality. All the strategies, ideas and information necessary for you to achieve this will manifest. You just have to believe it and be creative!

Shivaya


The author died in 1911, so this work is also in the public domain in countries and areas where the copyright term is the author's life plus 80 years or less. This work may also be in the public domain in countries and areas with longer native copyright terms that apply the rule of the shorter term to foreign works.

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 Shivaya 
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How do I get into this sweet state of consciousness with a market?

Questions! I ask questions to the charts. "What are you trying to do is my favorite?"

Each day I look at the monthly chart and ask that question. I notice if it opened near/at the low and is it up all month. Like CL opened near low in December and bias is up so far. So the market answers "At present I want to close at or near the high". I do the same with the daily, weekly, hourly, quarterly and yearly. This leads me to researching that market and determining how often does it open at/near low and close at/near high and vice versa.

Simple questions and listening for answers produces the sweet state where I look at a short term chart and wait till I know what the market wants to do next. I am patient and I wait for the answer.

Shivaya

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 tigertrader 
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IMO, there aren't any shortcuts, nor is there a holy grail, or sweet state, that leads to easy trading profits.

I realize that I should be the last one to criticize, because I am often guilty of clothing my messages, in an overly prosaic and metaphorical garb. Heck, I'm doing it right now. Yet, I am always a little dubious, when someone attempts to promulgate some kind of transcendental path to trading success. And I am twice as skeptical, when they extol the relative ease at which they make money, due to the virtues of this metaphysical methodology.

To each his own, but for me the path to trading nirvana is a little more straightforward and doesn't require a spiritual compass. Best practice, continuous self-evaluation, and emotional control are mandatory for success in any performance based activity. A trader therefore, needs to be adequately prepared, focused, confident, patient, and disciplined. These skills are essential for achieving peak performance, and although these skills take time to develop, they can be mastered through hard work and deliberate practice.

Traders must understand and dogmatically accept the fact, that mastery of practical and mental skills are the difference between success and failure, and this realization should provide traders with sufficient motivation to insure that they both implement and perfect these skills. However, trading has a way of short-circuiting the emotional connection by exposing and magnifying pre-existing negative habits and emotions. But once again, positive changes can be realized through hard work, practice and objective self-evaluation.



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 Shivaya 
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IMO, there aren't any shortcuts, nor is there a holy grail, or sweet state, that leads to easy trading profits.

I realize that I should be the last one to criticize, because I am often guilty of clothing my messages, in an overly prosaic and metaphorical garb. Heck, I'm doing it right now. Yet, I am always a little dubious, when someone attempts to promulgate some kind of transcendental path to trading success. And I am twice as skeptical, when they extol the relative ease at which they make money, due to the virtues of this metaphysical methodology.

To each his own, but for me the path to trading nirvana is a little more straightforward and doesn't require a spiritual compass. Best practice, continuous self-evaluation, and emotional control are mandatory for success in any performance based activity. A trader therefore, needs to be adequately prepared, focused, confident, patient, and disciplined. These skills are essential for achieving peak performance, and although these skills take time to develop, they can be mastered through hard work and deliberate practice.

Traders must understand and dogmatically accept the fact, that mastery of practical and mental skills are the difference between success and failure. While this realization should provide sufficient motivation to implement and perfect these skills, trading has a way of short-circuiting the emotional connection by exposing and magnifying pre-existing negative habits and emotions. But once again, positive changes can be realized through hard work, practice and objective self-evaluation.



Well Tigertrader,

Before this thread I answered a similar query. When I read of hard work, there is nothing sweet here. The words carry an energy I left long ago. Hard and Work sounds a struggle. It is time for many of us to reach within our being and see what is there and how hard can become sweet and work can become fun. So I choose Sweet Fun and not hard work. For others the road of the hard work struggle and stress is fine for them. This thread is not about that. It is about can we achieve Winning Trades/Nice Profits in a sweet fun way?

Here is the older post.

Shivaya


Shivaya View Post
Hi RTrade,

Distractions! Most tools in this business are distractions. The simple fact is few of us have been taught by genuine trading masters. But then most of our life teachers serve up rubbish. 5000 hours of deliberate right practise will give a new trader an edge. The result of that edge will produce Winning Trades and Nice Profits. The inner emotional body needs to believe this. The gap is the NOW moment where all trading/life happens. The gap is where NO FEAR exists. All else is past/future anxieties. Change the phrase to suit. The Now moment will serve continually a fearless state.

I love the state of trading in the now moment. My day becomes filled with a sweet consciousness of bliss. Otherwise those who trade with a pistol at their head (fear based) will one day take the bullet and lose all.

I have only two thoughts for my mind in trading. Winning Trades/Nice profits. The skill needed to pull this off is patience to wait for the nice trade to appear and patience to let the winning profits run, scaling all the way. When losses appear I have no patience beyond my EXIT level. So Nice Trades/Winning Profits...Winning Trades/Nice Profits...Be Here Now...you get the drift! By having only these two thoughts my higher consciousness takes over and reads the charts and then gives me intuitive signals of sweet trade setups. I give the lower mind the job of focusing on those two thoughts and ONLY those two and that keeps it out of mischief.

Delegation. Works for me!

Shivaya


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 gio5959 
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IMO, there aren't any shortcuts, nor is there a holy grail, or sweet state, that leads to easy trading profits. [

of course there is a hollie grail - didnt you follow my live posts on the chat where i called the exact time and price the es would turn and to what level it would go to

any, i did it every day

go post some live trades for us and see how you do on the live chat

thank you in advance

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 Shivaya 
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go post some live trades for us and see how you do on the live chat

thank you in advance

Love to except, I don't spend any time in chat rooms. Not a part of my trading life. Only interest in being here is to open up my consciousness to its inner potential in trading. Most are in fear of that. Only a very few will be interested I know. That's fine.

Shivaya

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 tigertrader 
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of course there is a hollie grail - didnt you follow my live posts on the chat where i called the exact time and price the es would turn and to what level it would go to

any, i did it every day



Congratulations, you should have more money than Oprah, quicker than lager turns to piss!

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 jstnbrg 
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IMO, there aren't any shortcuts, nor is there a holy grail, or sweet state, that leads to easy trading profits.




I don't think that a "sweet state" alone leads to trading profits, but I have always felt that when I am doing something my absolute best, whether it is trading, golf, tennis, minesweeper, Defender, whatever, that I am in a state where the critical, conscious, verbal mind is quiet and I just react automatically to the action going on around me. "The Inner Game of Tennis" by Timothy Gallwey is about how to learn to achieve that state of mind. It seems that activities with very continuous action, like Minesweeper and the old video game Defender bring about that state of mind for me the most easily because I have to concentrate so intensely and react continuously. Pit trading in a fast market was the same; no time to reflect, just act! I don't often experience that state sitting at a screen waiting for the next set up.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."
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 Shivaya 
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I don't think that a "sweet state" alone leads to trading profits, but I have always felt that when I am doing something my absolute best, whether it is trading, golf, tennis, minesweeper, Defender, whatever, that I am in a state where the critical, conscious, verbal mind is quiet and I just react automatically to the action going on around me. "The Inner Game of Tennis" by Timothy Gallwey is about how to learn to achieve that state of mind. It seems that activities with very continuous action, like Minesweeper and the old video game Defender bring about that state of mind for me the most easily because I have to concentrate so intensely and react continuously. Pit trading in a fast market was the same; no time to reflect, just act! I don't often experience that state sitting at a screen waiting for the next set up.

Thank you Jstnbrg,

This is the point of this thread. To explore this sweet state. Why do major trading firms employ the best and brilliant computer game kids? Why are master traders unable to teach how they trade? Why has Tiger Woods lost his golfing sweet state? His inner game of golf has gone. He still needed all the golfing strokes to become great, but without his sweet state he is gone. They all were able to access some inner state where they achieved fantastic results.

The old school traders have long given up on the inner game. I am only interested in this way now. I drew a 15 minute chart by hand for 4 years before software was invented. I've done the practice. I can read a chart. I am a sole trader. I achieve great results in the sweet state. I achieve ordinary results out of this state. I now wait for this state to manifest before taking a trade. That has now become the only reason for my trading. The inner sweet state I am able to achieve in a trade is sweeter than any profits it produces.

I would encourage you to continue to feel for this state in your trading. Dogs may bark but the caravan moves on. Remember the feeling you had when you played the games and search for that state that is beyond the mind.

This thread is beyond psychology, beyond mind. I've left all that stuff. The new generation of traders will access this region of their consciousness and blow the old schoolers back into driving taxis.

I don't experience this state all day, only a few times a day. But I started to notice I make 80% of my profits on these plays. AND...make 80% of my losses out of this state. This thread is simply to connect with the few that want to delve into and explore this sweet state.

Shivaya

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 Linds 
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"That has now become the only reason for my trading. The inner sweet state I am able to achieve in a trade is sweeter than any profits it produces."

Thats pretty interesting Shivaya. Are you saying that you trade only as a way to achieve the 'sweet state'? If so then trading is just a form of meditation for you?

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 Shivaya 
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Linds View Post
"That has now become the only reason for my trading. The inner sweet state I am able to achieve in a trade is sweeter than any profits it produces."

Thats pretty interesting Shivaya. Are you saying that you trade only as a way to achieve the 'sweet state'? If so then trading is just a form of meditation for you?

Well not quite Linds,

I now look to trade only when I am already in the 'sweet state'. So first I look to get into the sweet state and then trade. Yes, trading has become meditation. Walking has become meditation. My responses to situations are meditations. Let's say someone has a real lash out in anger at something I write on this thread. Gives me both barrels. Their hassle is never with me, but themselves. It is never what they say but how I respond to it. It's the same with a loss. Tha hassle is NOT the loss, it's how I respond to it.

What do I do with a few profits, buy a few first editions? I don't want or need anymore stuff! I travel light. So now trading is a game of inner meditation and has opened a whole new world for me. Exciting. Love it! Just thought I'd share. The main thing is though, you can access your own personal inner being and find the same state. This is not a game of someone tapping into my inner self for info. No, I'm here to say, Tap into your own amazing being. Your treasure is there!

Shivaya

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 gio5959 
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Congratulations, you should have more money than Oprah, quicker than lager turns to piss!

thank you for your kind words - merry xmas

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 tigertrader 
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I don't think that a "sweet state" alone leads to trading profits, but I have always felt that when I am doing something my absolute best, whether it is trading, golf, tennis, minesweeper, Defender, whatever, that I am in a state where the critical, conscious, verbal mind is quiet and I just react automatically to the action going on around me. "The Inner Game of Tennis" by Timothy Gallwey is about how to learn to achieve that state of mind. It seems that activities with very continuous action, like Minesweeper and the old video game Defender bring about that state of mind for me the most easily because I have to concentrate so intensely and react continuously. Pit trading in a fast market was the same; no time to reflect, just act! I don't often experience that state sitting at a screen waiting for the next set up.




Call it what you may. I call it focus, emotional control , and what Brett Steenbarger describes as "conceptual integration". He suggested that conceptual integration is essential to the acquisition of expertise in any field. He compared the expertise of the diagnosing physician to that of a long term investor. Both activities require a conscious integration of information acquired over a considerable period. A large fund of knowledge is brought to bear on a particular situation to make a proper decision.


The short-term trader or scalper is more akin to a fighter pilot, or race car driver, who must must integrate information on the fly, making critical decisions by "instinct" alone.
Such instinct, however, is actually highly automatized skill. The expert scalper integrates a huge amount of information from price, volume, time of day, and shifts in the depth of market. This integration, however, is not a deliberative process. It is built into the scalper's perception.

Dr Brett goes on to say, Perceptually-based expertise is an evolutionary necessity. it is the function of training to immerse performers in the real-time patterns of a performance field to hone this perceptually-based expertise. This is one way in which the training of short-term traders is more similar to that of expert atheletes than to Supreme Court justices. Investors can learn to weigh evidence and render reasonable decisions like judges. Very short-term traders, however, need their expertise built into their perceptual systems. They are more like race car drivers navigating a speedway than vacationers consulting maps for destinations.

This explains why you find it easier to "get in the zone" when scalping in the pit, playing tennis, or a playing a video game, but not when looking for swing setups. The longer the time-frame, the more important the role of explicit deliberation and reasoning. The shorter the time-frame, the greater the need for rapid perceptual processing based upon pattern recognition.


Many of the problems traders face is not a result of a lack of focus, or a failure to become one with the market, rather than a faulty integration of the two different (time-frame) kinds of expertise. Steenbarger asserts that trading problems arise when we commingle the two different information-processing systems, i.e., entering the trade with one, but managing the trade with the other. In other words, trades must be managed on the same basis they were put on.

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 tigertrader 
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Shivaya View Post
Thank you Jstnbrg,


This thread is beyond psychology, beyond mind. I've left all that stuff. The new generation of traders will access this region of their consciousness and blow the old schoolers back into driving taxis.

Shivaya

Actually, Jeff Castille and I were going to form a rock band, and give U2 a run for their money. The meter's running, Bono!

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 itrade2win 
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Call it what you may. I call it focus, emotional control , and what Brett Steenbarger describes as "conceptual integration". He suggested that conceptual integration is essential to the acquisition of expertise in any field. He compared the expertise of the diagnosing physician to that of a long term investor. Both activities require a conscious integration of information acquired over a considerable period. A large fund of knowledge is brought to bear on a particular situation to make a proper decision.


The short-term trader or scalper is more akin to a fighter pilot, or race car driver, who must must integrate information on the fly, making critical decisions by "instinct" alone.
Such instinct, however, is actually highly automatized skill. The expert scalper integrates a huge amount of information from price, volume, time of day, and shifts in the depth of market. This integration, however, is not a deliberative process. It is built into the scalper's perception.

Dr Brett goes on to say, Perceptually-based expertise is an evolutionary necessity. it is the function of training to immerse performers in the real-time patterns of a performance field to hone this perceptually-based expertise. This is one way in which the training of short-term traders is more similar to that of expert atheletes than to Supreme Court justices. Investors can learn to weigh evidence and render reasonable decisions like judges. Very short-term traders, however, need their expertise built into their perceptual systems. They are more like race car drivers navigating a speedway than vacationers consulting maps for destinations.

This explains why you find it easier to "get in the zone" when scalping in the pit, playing tennis, or a playing a video game, but not when looking for swing setups. The longer the time-frame, the more important the role of explicit deliberation and reasoning. The shorter the time-frame, the greater the need for rapid perceptual processing based upon pattern recognition.


Many of the problems traders face is not a result of a lack of focus, or a failure to become one with the market, rather than a faulty integration of the two different (time-frame) kinds of expertise. Steenbarger asserts that trading problems arise when we commingle the two different information-processing systems, i.e., entering the trade with one, but managing the trade with the other. In other words, trades must be managed on the same basis they were put on.


This is right on the money. I love Brett Steenbarger books. Reading the trading coach again for the second time. This is in the top 3 books to read IMO.

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 Shivaya 
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Actually, Jeff Castille and I were going to form a rock band, and give U2 a run for their money. The meter's running, Bono!

Great band. Please come and do a gig in Ireland. With or without you has just 4 chords -- D A Bm and G. You just gotta find that sweet state of inspiration where the chords become a song and the song a massive hit. You can do it!

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 Shivaya 
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This explains why you find it easier to "get in the zone" when scalping in the pit, playing tennis, or a playing a video game, but not when looking for swing setups. The longer the time-frame, the more important the role of explicit deliberation and reasoning. The shorter the time-frame, the greater the need for rapid perceptual processing based upon pattern recognition.

Steenbarger asserts that trading problems arise when we commingle the two different information-processing systems, i.e., entering the trade with one, but managing the trade with the other. In other words, trades must be managed on the same basis they were put on.

Thanks Tigertrader, All makes good sense and I am a fan of Steenbarger and have his books, but I wanted to explore beyond the trained psychologist's mind. Beyond books and more from personal realization. In the world of charts my favorite setups are my own discovery. I do not use anyone else's stuff. I have yet to meet a trader who has not realized the key is in knowing himself. Even after reading all the books doing all the practice, why did I do that dumb trade?

I am in a short trade and it feels like sellers are drying up. My intuition says reverse. How do I know when to trust my intuition? I have found for me personally the answer is when I am in the sweet inner state. I swing trade too. Makes no difference. I trust my Inner Self when I am in the long term sweet zone. I trust my "In the State of Sweet Consciousness" analysis both short and longer term. I use separate accounts to do this though. No one can take us there. It is our personal journey. I avoided that journey for years. So many belief systems to get free from. No more.

Sweetness is our inner necessity. If that is not satisfied, nothing is satisfied. I have simply found the chords to bring my trading into that joyful sweetness.

Shivaya

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 tigertrader 
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While driving to work, one frigid Chicago morning, I hit some "black ice" and spun around 360 Degrees, (damn those narrow wheel based rear wheel drive German cars) hit a retaining wall totaling my car, and was in the pit 30 minutes later, trading bonds like nothing had happened. I missed the opening and didn't get to go through my daily preparatory routine. I just walked into the pit and started trading and ended up having a relatively decent day.

There are 3 points I'm trying to make while relating this story. Life and circumstances get in the way of the perpetual attainment of "complete peace of mind", you can train yourself to focus and tune out distractions, and if you can read price action you can make money trading.

I do think it is unrealistic to think that you can always be in this "state of sweetness" because life gets in the way. Obviously, how you deal with the vicissitudes of life will determine your emotional state.
Positive changes will only be realized when you let go of the selfish and self-defeating side of your emotions, which blocks your mind and clouds your decisions. But that being said, when you aren't in this perfect , zen-like place, it boils down to your ability to sit down and focus, concentrate, and control your emotions.

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 Shivaya 
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Life and circumstances get in the way of the perpetual attainment of "complete peace of mind", you can train yourself to focus and tune out distractions, and if you can read price action you can make money trading.

I do think it is unrealistic to think that you can always be in this "state of sweetness" because life gets in the way.
But that being said, when you aren't in this perfect , zen-like place, it boils down to your ability to sit down and focus, concentrate, and control your emotions.

OR....and this is what I am playing with here. When life gets in the way, realize that and get back into the "state of sweetness". That too just takes some practice. Reach in for a feel good feeling and expand it. Feel it, not think it.

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 Shivaya 
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"Cornell University and Michigan State University conducted a study of restaurants in three local markets over a 10-year period. They concluded the following: After the first year 27% of restaurant startups failed; after three years, 50% of those restaurants were gone; and after five years 60% closed. At the end of 10 years, 70% of the restaurants that had opened for business a decade before had failed. Those are far different numbers than a 90% failure rate after the first year quoted by many. Another academic research study concluded that 81.4% of all small business failures result from forces within the control of the owners/managers."

I suspect similar figures for traders, as many come back again and again with refunded accounts. The main thing here is 81.4% of all small business failures are within control of owner. I would also say that is the same for traders.

For 2011 I am suggesting in trading as well as life realize there is an inner sweetness within each of us who acts as our mentor. All we need do is begin to connect there. Whatever information, technical way of analysis, markets best suited to our style, and real traders we need connect to will appear.

Many have belief systems that prevent this meeting, due to family, philosophical or intellectual reasons. The reality of successful trading is always preceded by an improved emotional state of being. If every trading dollar profit was a struggle for me I'd have been long gone. The fear is gone for the professionals. They are in control of their emotions and understand risk money management.

There is a long way to achieve this which I travelled. Or, as I do now, devote time to my inner being within reaching for my personal inner sweetness and then trade. Your account as well as your wife/girlfriend/partner will love you even more as well! Why? You just become a sweeter person when winning trades and nice profits appear week after week.

Shivaya

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 rtrade 
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Shivaya View Post
"Cornell University and Michigan State University conducted a study of restaurants in three local markets over a 10-year period. They concluded the following: After the first year 27% of restaurant startups failed; after three years, 50% of those restaurants were gone; and after five years 60% closed. At the end of 10 years, 70% of the restaurants that had opened for business a decade before had failed. Those are far different numbers than a 90% failure rate after the first year quoted by many. Another academic research study concluded that 81.4% of all small business failures result from forces within the control of the owners/managers."

I suspect similar figures for traders, as many come back again and again with refunded accounts. The main thing here is 81.4% of all small business failures are within control of owner. I would also say that is the same for traders.

For 2011 I am suggesting in trading as well as life realize there is an inner sweetness within each of us who acts as our mentor. All we need do is begin to connect there. Whatever information, technical way of analysis, markets best suited to our style, and real traders we need connect to will appear.

Many have belief systems that prevent this meeting, due to family, philosophical or intellectual reasons. The reality of successful trading is always preceded by an improved emotional state of being. If every trading dollar profit was a struggle for me I'd have been long gone. The fear is gone for the professionals. They are in control of their emotions and understand risk money management.

There is a long way to achieve this which I travelled. Or, as I do now, devote time to my inner being within reaching for my personal inner sweetness and then trade. Your account as well as your wife/girlfriend/partner will love you even more as well! Why? You just become a sweeter person when winning trades and nice profits appear week after week.

Shivaya


Hi Shivaya,

Top of the New Year to ya!!! I'm glad to read that they are realizing that this SWEET SPOT has some work in order to be obtained and that it is something beyond what the mind can comprehend...yet, ironically, we utilize the mind to get there or do we ...

It's kind of funny because, I was just reading the thread on "What kind of music you listen to as a trader" and the last post was from someone who said he listens to techno, but when he get's sloppy he reverts to reggae music....well, I must say, if reggae gets him in the SWEET SPOT then why leave that place of success? But then again I should be the last person to talk




gio5959 View Post
thank you for your kind words - merry xmas

Hey gio, I'm glad you took that high road of a response, it truly reflects on your good nature and the members of futures.io (formerly BMT)....don't worry....there are basically two types of Masters....ones that are ego-less and ones that have big egos...the latter has more to loose than the former, but all is good in the scheme of things.

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
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 rtrade 
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jstnbrg View Post
I don't think that a "sweet state" alone leads to trading profits, but I have always felt that when I am doing something my absolute best, whether it is trading, golf, tennis, minesweeper, Defender, whatever, that I am in a state where the critical, conscious, verbal mind is quiet and I just react automatically to the action going on around me. "The Inner Game of Tennis" by Timothy Gallwey is about how to learn to achieve that state of mind. It seems that activities with very continuous action, like Minesweeper and the old video game Defender bring about that state of mind for me the most easily because I have to concentrate so intensely and react continuously. Pit trading in a fast market was the same; no time to reflect, just act! I don't often experience that state sitting at a screen waiting for the next set up.


Hello @jstnbrg, I'm glad to know that not only are you a fellow trader but a fellow tennis player. I too play tennis, but not as much now. And since the Australian Open is over, I started to think about this Sweet State...I have been working on this not only in my trading life but in my personal life as well.

You mentioned that "Pit trading in a fast market was the same; no time to reflect, just act! I don't often experience that state siting at ta screen waiting for he next set up."

...and I agreed with that until after the Australian Open...I subtly notice there where two types of Sweet State. Let me explain. As tennis players we hone our skills drill after drill after drill. Hundreds of backhands, forehands, volleys we perform on courts to get us ready for the match...ie simulating our trades till we think we get it right before live trading.

I find it amazing that a player can loose the 1st set, let's say 6-0, and then win the next set 3-6, and then win the final set 4-6....why? Assuming both player are evenly rank.

Pit trading in a fast market was the same; no time to reflect, just act!
This is when the ball is in play...let's say an exciting rally like Djokovic and Murry...they both were in the Sweet State.

I don't often experience that state siting at ta screen waiting for he next set up.
This is when the ball is no longer in play...let's look at this as if the set is over and both players are sitting on their respected benches....this is the other Sweet State.

What I mean by the other Sweet State, and I really can't see what's going on in the tennis players heads, but I think you'll agree with me with our experience playing the game is that if one player is thinking about the HOT ball girl and the HOT fan giggling her hooters and the other player is going over what he did right and wrong in the past set...then I think you'll agree that the latter player will be more prepared in being in first Sweet Spot that the Pit traders use, just act.

So that's as far as I've come to understanding it and when it comes to my trading, like tennis...drills, drills, drills.

Try trading the minute chart of any instrument, ignore the points or money value and I believe you'll experience this state of...just act....but since, I'm assuming, that's not your trade play...your Sweet State is when your on your bench thinking how your going play the next set.

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
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 eman 
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rtrade View Post
... if one player is thinking about the HOT ball girl and the HOT fan giggling her hooters and the other player is going over what he did right and wrong in the past set...then I think you'll agree that the latter player will be more prepared in being in first Sweet Spot that the Pit traders use, just act.

made me chuckle ... thx.

cheers,
-e

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jtradr
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I've been following this thread and I'm wondering if any of you who have more experience have an opinion on something I have been considering in life as well as in trading.

I find that the human mind (my mind as it were) can, in times of stress, revert from the, what I'll call enlightened state to a place where my mind gets locked in a negative cycle.

Has anyone had any success in breaking negative thought cycles? I would like to better identify periods in which I am in a positive mental state for trading and when I need to step back. When I step back how can I remove myself from the negative cycle of fear, doubt, anxiety etc.

I feel that as humans in the course of our lives build programmed responses to stressful situations that, when unchecked, become scripted psychological and even physiological responses that are very hard to break.

Negative emotions in trading lead to entering early (impatience, fear of missing a trade), entering late (hesitation, fear of being wrong), tightening stop loss (fear of losing $, self doubt), removing stop loss (fear of accepting failure, greed, paralysis), tightening profit target (fear being wrong, self doubt), loosening profit target (greed). That's just a list that I thought of and a few emotions I associate with those things. Physiologically we can experience tightness, shortness of breathe, narrowing of vision, elevated pulse. etc.

Does anyone have thoughts or literature about this?

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 jstnbrg 
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Has anyone had any success in breaking negative thought cycles? I would like to better identify periods in which I am in a positive mental state for trading and when I need to step back. When I step back how can I remove myself from the negative cycle of fear, doubt, anxiety etc.

I feel that as humans in the course of our lives build programmed responses to stressful situations that, when unchecked, become scripted psychological and even physiological responses that are very hard to break.



Does anyone have thoughts or literature about this?

This is something I've had to deal with throughout my trading career. If you're feeling really foggy in the morning before you trade or if something really negative is going on in your life not related to trading, do not trade. Some of the greatest traders I've known at the Board of Trade had their careers threatened by trying to trade while going through divorces.

When you get into a negative cycle, my advice is to step away. I always had a rule in the pit that if I had three consecutive losing trades I was done for the day. If I had three losing days in a row I would take a day off. Try to identify what went wrong, but don't dwell on it, just identify the problem or problems and then do something completely unrelated to trading. Then, after you've taken just enough time off to clear your head, get back on the horse. If your trading methodology is reasonably consistent, you'll be fine.

If your negative cycle is due to being unable to put together consistent results, then you have to go back to the drawing board. Read, trade in sim, study charts, backtest ideas even if you don't plan on trading systematically. Sometimes backtesting will identify erroneous trading concepts. Try to develop tape reading skills. A poster somewhere on futures.io (formerly BMT) who claims to have been trained by a superstar described how early in his career his mentor would flip a coin, heads long, tails short, make him take the indicated position, and then he had to trade out of it. A great idea. I used to do something similar in the pit first thing in the morning to get in synch. As soon as I had even a whiff of market direction or value I'd aggressively put on a small position, maybe a tenth of my normal size, and see how it "felt".

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."
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 eman 
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@jstnbrg - excellent post. thanks!


Quoting 
if I had three consecutive losing trades I was done for the day. If I had three losing days in a row I would take a day off.

something to consider adding to my trading plan.

cheers,
-e

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 jstnbrg 
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eman View Post
@ jstnbrg - excellent post. thanks!

something to consider adding to my trading plan.

cheers,
-e

I should amend my previous post a little. I didn't always leave for the day if I had three losers in a row. I
would always leave the pit after the third loser, get some breakfast, think about the morning a bit, and then
decide whether I should leave or give it one more shot. But I would definitely step away for a little bit to clear my head and take stock.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."
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 eman 
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@jstnbrg - right-on. thanks again. good counsel to step away and not trade out of emotions or revenge.

cheers,
-e

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 Shivaya 
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Let's say I am a brand new trader starting out today. I have learned how to read charts of price action and located some real live traders who trade real money. I am offered the possibility of a desk to trade from and the capital to trade with. All I have to do is pass their test.

Here's what is asked.

Three months of SIM trades in one market, with minimum 2-5 trades per day.

Now what do you think a professional money manager is going to look for in your results? I know exactly what I want to see. Winning Trades and Nice Profits. They leave behind a story of the trader's journey. I can read that.

If you get into your sweet consciousness state you too will know. Jesse Livermore is one of the game's favourite sons. Yet his saying of 'yes, but can you trade with a loaded pistol at your head?' is full of his consciousness state. He shot himself, his wife shot her son, his son drew a gun at the police. Guns were a big part of his consciousness.

So is SIM trading any use? I have watched so many traders wipe out $20,000 and $50,000 and $100,000 accounts real money because there was no other way to test their ideas other than the real thing.

Now here is the next vital step. You have done 90 days of SIM trading but you ask yourself can you trade for real with a pistol at your head? The answer is No! Why? Now see if you can get this. Because you have asked that question, you are filled with doubt. Doubt leads to loss.

Step one is learn to read charts.
Step two is SIM trade for 90 days
Step three is Virtual trade for the rest of your life.
Step four is understand money management
Step five is trade with real money

Now what is Virtual Trading? It is the weld that joins SIM to REAL. This is where you imagine yourself doing the trades in a sweet sweet state, executing perfectly, feeling all the wonderful energy of being a master trader.

When you move from SIM to REAL there is no doubt. You are a trader in your sweet consciousness before you become one in the REAL world of trading. If you doubt this I am telling you, you will lose. I've seen it over and over.

SIM~VIRTUAL~REAL

Your fingers will just click automatically, when you see your setup. No Fear. When there is no more fear you are ready.

Sweet Trades!

Shivaya

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 rtrade 
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Step one is learn to read charts.
Step two is SIM trade for 90 days
Step three is Virtual trade for the rest of your life.
Step four is understand money management
Step five is trade with real money

Now what is Virtual Trading? It is the weld that joins SIM to REAL. This is where you imagine yourself doing the trades in a sweet sweet state, executing perfectly, feeling all the wonderful energy of being a master trader.

When you move from SIM to REAL there is no doubt. You are a trader in your sweet consciousness before you become one in the REAL world of trading. If you doubt this I am telling you, you will lose. I've seen it over and over.

SIM~VIRTUAL~REAL

Your fingers will just click automatically, when you see your setup. No Fear. When there is no more fear you are ready.

Sweet Trades!

Shivaya


Hi Shivaya,

I would like to believe that... and in a big way I do. But where you are in your trading and where I'm at in trading...I believe there's a big divide, a huge gap. It would be like you, knowing already how to walk and you teaching me how to walk...by saying, "It's easy" ... eventually I will agree with you.

I used tennis in a previous post to describe trading because of all of it's components. When I first learned tennis, just the basics, performing countless drills of leaning how to do a forehand; a backhand; volley forehand; volley backhand; serving...and each components became more specific, like being able to slice the ball or give it top spin or a power serve or a kick serve etc...I thought I knew the game of tennis (trading).

And just as I thought I knew the game of tennis... I didn't know the "real game of tennis" I just knew the components of (trading). Once you play an opponent that's when you begin to start seeing how all of the components (of trading) come together. And looking at the score (trading account) plays a big part on how you'll play the point out (call that trade management)....And even when I think I know how to play a game...enter a tournament, it's a whole new level play (live trading). And I haven't touched on the psychological issues....But I am working hard on that. I know just mentally understanding psychological topics doesn't work...I have to practice them over and over till I get fully grasp the concepts.

Is 90 days reasonable? If I don't achieve a goal that I set for 90 days, do give myself another 90 days? I have no choice but to...

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
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 josh 
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The Sweet Spot in trading will produce figures that are good to study. The favorable ratio between MAE and MFE is what keeps trading sweet for me. It is what I look at first in my trading log. Higher the better! This motivates me to go deeper into the sweet flow zone.

Shivaya

Hi Shivaya,

In beginning my trading log, the MFE, what I could have gotten, stands out as most important to me. But let's say I'm basing my TP on a S/R level, in that case if your log says you should normally go for another 20 ticks, does it make sense to follow that, or take your profit where your "inner sweetness" and the chart indicate price will react? Hope it makes sense...

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 Shivaya 
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Hi Shivaya,

In beginning my trading log, the MFE, what I could have gotten, stands out as most important to me. But let's say I'm basing my TP on a S/R level, in that case if your log says you should normally go for another 20 ticks, does it make sense to follow that, or take your profit where your "inner sweetness" and the chart indicate price will react? Hope it makes sense...

The most important for me is the MAE! All your trading skill will be judged by your own ability to enter with low MAE. This is the heat you take after your entry.The MFE is simply 'letting your profits run"

Shivaya

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 Anagami 
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This is a ridiculous thread... the single best thread on trading psychology I ever read (I have read 100s over the last 5 years).

"Nearly all mankind is more or less unhappy
because nearly all do not know the true Self.
Real happiness abides in Self-knowledge alone.
All else is fleeting.
To know one's Self
is to be blissful always. "

Ramana Maharshi

Thank you, thank you, thank you, for bringing this out Shivaya.

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 rtrade 
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This is a ridiculous thread... (I have read 100s over the last 5 years).

Ridiculous?!!!....Really?!!!

The thread is about..." going beyond psychology and the inner side to TRADING." ~shivaya

Ya that's right, how it relates to TRADING. Now I'm not an EXPERT, or let alone a Rocket Scientist...but I have enough common sense to know that READING ain't what it's all cracked up to be....it's only half of it....you have to APPLY what you have read.

So, with what you've read, what is the solution to what we traders are SEEKING? And please only provide real life applications...NOT theory from a book...please.

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
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 Anagami 
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Ridiculous?!!!....Really?!!!

The thread is about..." going beyond psychology and the inner side to TRADING." ~shivaya

Ya that's right, how it relates to TRADING. Now I'm not an EXPERT, or let alone a Rocket Scientist...but I have enough common sense to know that READING ain't what it's all cracked up to be....it's only half of it....you have to APPLY what you have read.

So, with what you've read, what is the solution to what we traders are SEEKING? And please only provide real life applications...NOT theory from a book...please.

Exactly what Shivaya stated. Tuning to the frequencies of our higher Self for guidance, help, and comfort. Trading as meditation is both pleasant and profitable.

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 fossil 
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So the message is:

Find your personal frequency and your done?

Axel

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 Shivaya 
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The emotional journey in my trading has taken me from excited and motivated to learn the game, to fear and trembling to enter a trade, to the Joy of trading with my Inner Being of Knowing. This is beyond Belief, this is placing a short trade and knowing it is going down. The knowing comes from somewhere within my being. I had this knowing when I started to trade but did not know how I knew. So I believed I could not depend on it. So I studied charts for years. Then money management. Then came full circle and arrived back at knowing.

Once I returned to my inner self the knowing was still there but so was the analysis skill. Now I knew why I knew. I discovered that when I traded in the emotional state of fear losses came. I made mistakes. The goal was to achieve a sweet state of being and then trade my setups. In the Sweet State I seemed to get the good setups and not the dud ones. I also cut out of a trade quickly and reentered instead of holding because of the knowing.

As long as my 'edge' ratio came in at 2.0 to 3.50 + all was well.

The market became my friend. Volatility became sweetness. Small losses my costs, and letting profits run my only business. If I am in a state of unsweetened distraction I know that my only work is to first get into the state of Inner Sweetness. Once there, then I analyse and trade. I care about how I feel before trading. I gotta 'feel' sweet!

Shivaya

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 fossil 
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I like to read your words and i am feeling good at this time.
But i donīt know how to become this stage of feeling like you do! And this will be my jouney!

Hopefully someday i can share your kind of trading!

Thanks
Axel

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 Shivaya 
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Thank you, thank you, thank you, for bringing this out Shivaya.

My Blissful Pleasure Anagami.

Trading futures is as I am sure you well know all about the emotional journey. Best get into the sweet state before anything else. The emotion of other traders fear makes money for the traders in the state of sweetness who just harvest their profits out of this fear.

Shivaya

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 Shivaya 
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fossil View Post
I like to read your words and i am feeling good at this time.
But i donīt know how to become this stage of feeling like you do! And this will be my jouney!

Hopefully someday i can share your kind of trading!

Thanks
Axel


Axel,

Keep 'feeling good' and your journey will be a great success. Just reach for a feeling that is better. Meditate on Inner sweetness. Unconditional Love for your Inner Self, always guiding your path. Sweet!

Shivaya

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 Shivaya 
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fossil View Post
So the message is:

Find your personal frequency and your done?

Axel

Find your personal frequency of joy and bliss and then analyse and then trade.

Shivaya

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 zt379 
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Shivaya

What a pleasure to find your thread.
My thanks to you.

I have had similar experiences both in terms of where you started from as a trader, pre-internet I updated a large piece of graph paper with a cross for the price that I got off a pager that updated every 2 mins. So 9 hours a day drawing a cross every 2 mins.

More interesting though was when I began to try to understand " the present moment".

Perhaps this touches upon your "sweet spot".
In short, we can understand the broad concept that the market is a reflection of choices.
and that mostly, human choices derive from an emotional reaction.

If we consider that the most prevalent emotions derive from fear and that fear is only a state of being
related to the "future", we can, perhaps, begin to see how an understanding of the true nature of the "present moment"
relieves (for the want of a better word) our "attachment" and indeed any involvement in fear.

The "present moment" is as it's name states, a "moment" that is a "present" , a gift.

The gift is, as I presently understand it (forgive the pun), as follows:

Living in a state of "the present moment" is an acknowledgment that we have everything we need "right now".
Each and every moment is, in itself, a reflection of that acknowledgment, such that if we feel "wanting" then we are lacking.

That lacking sends out the message that we are not happy.
What we get back is confirmation of our unhappiness, but it is given back to us in "this" present moment, as a gift,
to give us the opportunity to acknowledge that we have every thing we need.
In that acknowledgment, we are not lacking, which in of itself alters the "message" we then send out.

It sounds like a "loop", and it is I guess when we don't see the connectedness of how our "awareness" of "this present moment" is giving us what we reflect of ourselves.

That reflection is through our thought.

Lastly, I have often wondered, and laughed at myself when I catch myself realizing (for example),
if I see myself "thinking", then what part of "I" is doing the seeing as opposed to that part that is ding the "thinking"...

I hope I have not intruded on your thread.
Many thx

Shalom

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 Shivaya 
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Shivaya

What a pleasure to find your thread.
My thanks to you.

if I see myself "thinking", then what part of "I" is doing the seeing as opposed to that part that is ding the "thinking"...

I hope I have not intruded on your thread.
Many thx

Shalom

well zt,

Great points. The present moment is 'free of fear'. Past remembering brings anxiety and future thinking brings fear. For me this is the greatest benefit of the trading journey. The emotional evolvement of being able to 'tune in' to my Sweet State and Be there is just the single most part I appreciate.

I am amazed at the way this state has taken over every aspect of my life. It seems I meet the nicest people, the smartest traders, the poets and the happy folk. Once I decided to clean up my emotional state and Be in the Inner Sweetness when trading, I just go for the trades that produce exactly what I expect. Winning trades and Nice profits.

This is the hidden side to the business, and we all thought it was about making money!

Shivaya

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 zt379 
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Shivaya View Post
well zt,

Great points. The present moment is 'free of fear'. Past remembering brings anxiety and future thinking brings fear. For me this is the greatest benefit of the trading journey. The emotional evolvement of being able to 'tune in' to my Sweet State and Be there is just the single most part I appreciate.

I am amazed at the way this state has taken over every aspect of my life. It seems I meet the nicest people, the smartest traders, the poets and the happy folk. Once I decided to clean up my emotional state and Be in the Inner Sweetness when trading, I just go for the trades that produce exactly what I expect. Winning trades and Nice profits.

This is the hidden side to the business, and we all thought it was about making money!

Shivaya

Yes I agree, it permeates every aspect of our lives.
Perhaps because our lives are merely a series of continuous moments,
and our task is to be ever present to and in them.
It is, as you say, to evolve, emotionally.

As to making money..
Such is the contradiction.
Imo if we find ourselves thinking about the money, then we are probably in trouble..

Hope you don't mind me adding a quote from the philosopher Hess:

"The eye of the will is impure,
and makes for distortion.
Only when we want nothing,
only when our gaze becomes pure contemplation,
does the soul of things..
the beauty open to us"

Kind regards

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 Anagami 
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My Blissful Pleasure Anagami.

Trading futures is as I am sure you well know all about the emotional journey. Best get into the sweet state before anything else. The emotion of other traders fear makes money for the traders in the state of sweetness who just harvest their profits out of this fear.

Shivaya

Isn't it funny that what we experience is only the quality of our own consciousness? We think experience is 'out there' (we project). It's actually 'in here'.

I'd go as far as to say that the market is really in you, not you in the market. Yes, price is objective...etc., BUT the way it is experienced is completely subjective... this can be an edge... or a perpetual stumbling block.

By taking responsibility for one's experience / perception, one regains power that was given over to the 'scary market'.

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 Anagami 
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Messing around with Motivators, sometimes I generate trading ones. Done in the spirit of Shivaya. Enjoy.

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 Shivaya 
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Messing around with Motivators, sometimes I generate trading ones. Done in the spirit of Shivaya. Enjoy.


Very Cool...xxxxbearhugxxxx

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 Shivaya 
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zt379 View Post
Imo if we find ourselves thinking about the money, then we are probably in trouble..

True.

Emotional Wellness (Sweet State)
Analysis Skills (Sweet State)
Money management (Sweet State)
Winning Trades (Sweet State)
Nice profits (Sweet State)

Cutting Losses ( Sweet State)
Let profits Run (Sweet State)

I like to watch people get in and out of their sweetness. Often they are not even aware of it. A sharp comment, followed by adverse reaction statement and their sweetness is gone. The other person is to blame. Never. That negative state is within and you simply applied it. Same with the market. Everything. Sweet State is support. All the rest is resistance.

I watch how kids manage to get emotional reactions from parents. Classic. As soon as the kid does something where the parent negatively reacts, they have lost and the kid wins again! Test yourself when next time you have to mind kids. After they mess your computer and bust the mouse, and stab the gel wrist mouse mat, download Ben10, all before they can ever read, see how your sweetness holds.

Knowing the Inner Power of Sweetness, I just fix everything and buy some 'new' stuff! LOL!!!

Shivaya

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 NoJob 
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Isn't it funny that what we experience is only the quality of our own consciousness? We think experience is 'out there' (we project). It's actually 'in here'.

Indeed.
I always say that everyone lives in their own reality from within themselves.

I always loved this picture because it says so much. It expresses things words cannot. Words are more of a hindrance than help in most cases.

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 Anagami 
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Shivaya View Post
Very Cool...xxxxbearhugxxxx

Right back at you, my friend.

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  #62 (permalink)
 Anagami 
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True.

Emotional Wellness (Sweet State)
Analysis Skills (Sweet State)
Money management (Sweet State)
Winning Trades (Sweet State)
Nice profits (Sweet State)

Cutting Losses ( Sweet State)
Let profits Run (Sweet State)

I like to watch people get in and out of their sweetness. Often they are not even aware of it. A sharp comment, followed by adverse reaction statement and their sweetness is gone. The other person is to blame. Never. That negative state is within and you simply applied it. Same with the market. Everything. Sweet State is support. All the rest is resistance.

I watch how kids manage to get emotional reactions from parents. Classic. As soon as the kid does something where the parent negatively reacts, they have lost and the kid wins again! Test yourself when next time you have to mind kids. After they mess your computer and bust the mouse, and stab the gel wrist mouse mat, download Ben10, all before they can ever read, see how your sweetness holds.

Knowing the Inner Power of Sweetness, I just fix everything and buy some 'new' stuff! LOL!!!

Shivaya

The paramount thing is understanding the causality of this. It is the Sweet State (cause) that brings about results (effects)... not the other way around. Another way to put this is that happiness brings about success, not success happiness.

Unfortunately most people go into trading 'the wrong way'. They expect to achieve trading success... and THEN they will be happy (so they think). Much better to go into trading ALREADY happy... and then allowing that happiness to guide one towards success. "Pleasant abiding here and now".

Trading does not solve unhappiness problems (makes them much worse in fact), but one has a much higher chance of becoming a successful trader if already happy.

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 PandaWarrior 
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I agree being in the right frame of mind is the key to trading.....

Shivaya is translated into English as " I bow before Shiva". Shiva is the Hindu god of destruction.

The god of destruction involved with feelings of sweetness? Shiva is also listed as the "god who remains after all is destroyed....or the inner self". So in the most literal meaning, one "bows or worships oneself".

Just some facts I found along the way.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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 kashter 
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Hi Shivaya,
Great posts on something I believe far more important but lacking in most. Thanks for sharing.

You talked about 'getting into a state of sweetness' and I know this could be different from person to person but in your case, if you do not mind sharing here, is it some kind of meditation/yoga/prayer you do or is it some other rituals you run through prior to start of trading?


Shivaya View Post
... The goal was to achieve a sweet state of being and then trade my setups.
... If I am in a state of unsweetened distraction I know that my only work is to first get into the state of Inner Sweetness. Once there, then I analyse and trade. I care about how I feel before trading. I gotta 'feel' sweet!

Shivaya

Cheers,
K

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 Anagami 
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I agree being in the right frame of mind is the key to trading.....

Shivaya is translated into English as " I bow before Shiva". Shiva is the Hindu god of destruction.

The god of destruction involved with feelings of sweetness? Shiva is also listed as the "god who remains after all is destroyed....or the inner self". So in the most literal meaning, one "bows or worships oneself".

Just some facts I found along the way.

Shiva is the destroyer... of illusion. The transcendent Self whipping out the small and weak ego-self. Shiva represents return to the Source.

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 Shivaya 
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kashter View Post
Hi Shivaya,
Great posts on something I believe far more important but lacking in most. Thanks for sharing.

You talked about 'getting into a state of sweetness' and I know this could be different from person to person but in your case, if you do not mind sharing here, is it some kind of meditation/yoga/prayer you do or is it some other rituals you run through prior to start of trading?


Cheers,
K

Sweetness is the same for all of us, just some may use different names to describe the feeling. No ritual, prayer, belief system, or yoga required. (I did all these over the years but now it's simply a state of loving consciousness) Look at a sunrise or sunset, or watch birds play in the thermals, or dolphins surf, or kids playing, or your sweetheart's loving glance. They will all get you into a state of sweetness and a feeling of inner joy. You are part of all this wonder. Just like the market, place a trade and now you are part of this play. How wonderful is that!

Shivaya

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 Shivaya 
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Anagami View Post
Shiva is the destroyer... of illusion. The transcendent Self whipping out the small and weak ego-self. Shiva represents return to the Source.


Perfectly put!

A return to Who we really are! A Powerful Being. I can tell you, but...Only you can realize this.

Shivaya

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 Shivaya 
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aztrader9 View Post
Shivaya is translated into English as " I bow before Shiva". Shiva is the Hindu god of destruction.

The god of destruction involved with feelings of sweetness? Shiva is also listed as the "god who remains after all is destroyed....or the inner self". So in the most literal meaning, one "bows or worships oneself".

Yep. probably the most misunderstood aspect of us dear humans, 'loving oneself'. We go looking for others to love us while ignoring the powerful Inner Love. I deeply love and appreciate every aspect of my being, so trading is a joyful experience, as is surfing and dancing and more.

Shivaya

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 tigertrader 
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Shivaya View Post
Yep. probably the most misunderstood aspect of us dear humans, 'loving oneself'. We go looking for others to love us while ignoring the powerful Inner Love. I deeply love and appreciate every aspect of my being, so trading is a joyful experience, as is surfing and dancing and more.

Shivaya


Personally, I would tear your heart out, if I knew it would make me an extra tick...but that's just me.

You need focus, a competitive spirit, and good money management to be a successful trader....Kumbaya!

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 Shivaya 
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tigertrader View Post

Personally, I tear your heart out, if I knew it would make me an extra tick...but that's just me.

You need focus, a competitive spirit, and good money management to be a successful trader....Kumbaya!

Well, I got all those but the state of sweet consciousness simply expands every aspect of my trading including the fun part.

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 josh 
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Thanks again for the unconventional thread Shivaya-- those who come here with sarcasm or negativity are seeking security that they lack.

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 rtrade 
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Shivaya View Post

Emotional Wellness (Sweet State)
Analysis Skills (Sweet State)
Money management (Sweet State)
Winning Trades (Sweet State)
Nice profits (Sweet State)

Cutting Losses ( Sweet State)
Let profits Run (Sweet State)

Shivaya


Ok, please provide and explanation how to be in a SWEET STATE when your in a LOSING Trade....How can you be in a FEEL GOOD state when you're LOSING?

If TigerTrader just RIPPED my Heart out for just only 1 tic, how am I suppose to feel good about that?

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
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 jstnbrg 
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rtrade View Post
Ok, please provide and explanation how to be in a SWEET STATE when your in a LOSING Trade....How can you be in a FEEL GOOD state when you're LOSING?

If TigerTrader just RIPPED my Heart out for just only 1 tic, how am I suppose to feel good about that?

Losing is part of the business, just like losing points is part of a tennis match, even if you eventually win. To me, being in the sweet state does not mean being happy, it means being totally unemotional, observing the action and learning from it, responding to it, observing your responses and learning from them too.

If TigerTrader ripped your heart out, it is because you bared it to him. Remember, he doesn't even know you exist, he just knows that price action has certain tendencies.

Think about losing this way: if you're playing the nickel slots at a casino, you pull the lever and no money comes out, you don't get upset because you lost money on this pull, you just put another nickel in the slot and try again and you do that until you've used up the risk capital you brought with you. And that's while doing something where you KNOW the odds are against you. Trading is a statistical process, and you need to keep that in mind with every bet you make. You're going to lose a significant percentage of the time. Don't get upset about Tiger taking your money, get upset when you break your discipline and double up when you should have gotten out, get upset when you failed to take a good setup because you were playing Solitaire. Good traders really do not get upset when they follow their plan and it doesn't happen to be profitable this time.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."
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 Anagami 
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rtrade View Post
Ok, please provide and explanation how to be in a SWEET STATE when your in a LOSING Trade....How can you be in a FEEL GOOD state when you're LOSING?

If TigerTrader just RIPPED my Heart out for just only 1 tic, how am I suppose to feel good about that?

What's wrong with some losing trades? You mean that you expect to have 100% winners?

And if it is an expected part of being in this business, why go into knots about it?



The market may or may not turn your insides into a knot. It's up to you.

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 rtrade 
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Anagami View Post

What's wrong with some losing trades?

hmm, let's say every time you lose, you get PUNCHED in the face ... so if you asked, "What's wrong with being Punched in the face?" Well, I guess a 2 year old would know that answer. But I'll be Direct in answering your question....I don't like losing trades. How obvious can it be...


Anagami View Post
You mean that you expect to have 100% winners?

hmm, well this thread is "going beyond psychology..." so, there will be some spirituality in this. Allow me to give you universal principle so you can grasp the situation:

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13

So my "Direct" answer to you question is....YES


Anagami View Post
And if it is an expected part of being in this business, why go into knots about it?

Wow, I agree with you, but didn't you read my post? Ah, that's why I asked...


Anagami View Post
The market may or may not turn your insides into a knot. It's up to you.

Wow, I this answer is soooo enlightening .... DUH!!!

Why don't you re-read my post and perhaps you can answer the question more DIRECTLY the way jstnbrg did, in fact his answer was SPOT ON!!!

Because when you answer a question with a question....it's very murky...I'm looking for CLARITY. I know you can do it, because when aztrader9 gave the definition of shivaya, you provided and answer that cleared any possibility of confusion.

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
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 Anagami 
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rtrade View Post
hmm, let's say every time you lose, you get PUNCHED in the face ... so if you asked, "What's wrong with being Punched in the face?" Well, I guess a 2 year old would know that answer. But I'll be Direct in answering your question....I don't like losing trades. How obvious can it be...



hmm, well this thread is "going beyond psychology..." so, there will be some spirituality in this. Allow me to give you universal principle so you can grasp the situation:

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13

So my "Direct" answer to you question is....YES



Wow, I agree with you, but didn't you read my post? Ah, that's why I asked...



Wow, I this answer is soooo enlightening .... DUH!!!

Why don't you re-read my post and perhaps you can answer the question more DIRECTLY the way jstnbrg did, in fact his answer was SPOT ON!!!

Because when you answer a question with a question....it's very murky...I'm looking for CLARITY. I know you can do it, because when aztrader9 gave the definition of shivaya, you provided and answer that cleared any possibility of confusion.

Let's say you're a boxer and you complain every time you get punched. I say that boxer is a moron, because it is not possible to be a boxer and never get punched. Even a 2 year old can see THAT.

And, if you can do all things through Christ, then there is no problem, is there?

If you really seek clarity, it will have to come from within you. Nothing on the outside will be able to clear it.

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 jstnbrg 
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As someone who was put in Big Mike's penalty box once, and who has zero desire to be there again, I'd say this conversation is getting a little more than passive aggressive.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."
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 skyfly 
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Well my trading is all wrapped up in my own pesonal belief. I'm a christian, and belive in Christ. Some of the books I have read are the "Power of Now" and " Sermon on the Mount". Those books ask that you blieve a paticular thing about the world and your relationship to it. Now you can believe this on blind faith, or put it to the test. Thats the part I really like! Putting it to the test. Putting all the meditation and the oh so good feelings about "God" where ever he is, to the test.

I mean I want to know that it is real. I want to know I can pray and get results. Now this is something important to my trading, because I'm not often sure what course to take, my experience with trading has been painful and spirituial. Only recently since I've been visiting this site has my trading improved to where I'm actually winning.

However their has been nothing since I first learned of trading that has not been brought to me, in one way or another through prayer. Always and without exception I've found that the prayer should be, not to make me, but to teach me. I use to pray "GOD HELP!" LOL. Now I pray help me to be a profitable trader, guide me to what I need to be a profitable trader. I've figured it out, atleast for me, that God will give you exactly what you ask for. But if your just yelling help help help, He's asking what do you need help with.

So for me trading is far more than making money, being yoru own boss. For me it has to do with putting to the test, "God" and if "He" is real, and that "The Bible" is true, than I should be able to pray, and receive help from Him. Help that would not of come to me, had I never prayed at all.

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 Shivaya 
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Many years ago I sat with a room of budding daytraders. They had all advanced enough to trade live real money.

Today was their first day to 'pull the trigger'.

The good part for them was they would be putting trades on my house account. I was taking the financial risk.

BUT...!!!

They were taking the 'FEELING of RISK' Few took a trade. All got out within a nano second!

Losing money is the easy part of trading. The 'feeling of losing' is what has to be dealt with. Once you can accept that losses are just 'costs' progress is rapid.

As soon as you leave your sweet spot the risk of additional losses increases dramatically. So why leave?

I do not care one bit what any trader says or does or writes. GOING BEYOND is THIS... I trade from within, I listen, I appreciate all my analysis skills, I wait and I pounce. Then I manage and scale out and finally let my runners take what is available. Then I analyse my results and update my trading log. All the time I am in a sweet state of 'Thanks Market'. This is Empowered Trading.

Shivaya

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 zt379 
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Something may "resonate".

YouTube - THE WAYSEER MANIFESTO

Kind regards

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 rtrade 
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zt379 View Post
Something may "resonate".

YouTube - THE WAYSEER MANIFESTO

Kind regards


Kind regards, are you sure you're in the correct thread?

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
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 zt379 
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rtrade View Post
Kind regards, are you sure you're in the correct thread?


Yes.lol..
It can seem to deal with things unrelated to the thread and trading, however, I thought it quite an interesting 10 min clip
that touched upon many things that, in a sense, inter-relate to perhaps help explain many issues we may have
with trading.

For example, belief systems, the way our "conscious" minds have been structured, what we place value on,
that is mostly on "things" outside of ourselves, which in turn cause us to define ourselves in terms of those things.

For example, the extent that fear and other emotions affect our trading, and learning to understand that those emotions are who we "think" we are.

The video, to me, was a metaphor, if you will, for our rebellion against those parts of ourselves that limit
us from being our full potential and that a shift in perception or an increase in awareness may lead to interesting
insights about ourselves, and dispel things we took as truths, as illusions.

I can understand that it may seem off topic, but that's the way I saw it.
This thread has raised ideas and topics that are not, imo, easy to communicate, and cover many inter-related things,
so there may be many ways of doing so.

Although I would prefer to use the word acceptance than rebellion.
Transitions (internal) are not always painless.
There is a great deal of internal struggle (imo).
A fight and sacrifice, if you like, between who we "think" we are and who and what we really are.
The goal, I would say, is peace, inner peace and true happiness that is not measured by anything
outside ourselves.

Like I said "something may resonate"

hth

If the OP, deems it inappropriate, I have absolutely no objection to the post/video being removed.

Thx

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 zt379 
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"Oneness"

YouTube - Oneness [HQ]


"Awakening" myra adrian

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 zt379 
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"What The Bleep Do We Know"


YouTube - What The Bleep Do We Know (1 of 12)

"Quantum Factor Featuring Dr. Joe Dispenza"
YouTube - Quantum Factor Featuring Dr. Joe Dispenza (What The Bleep?)

"Eckhart Tolle, not reacting to content"


YouTube - Eckhart Tolle, not reacting to content, www.soundstrue.com




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jlancaster
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34 Winners in a row? If what you say is true, congratulations are in order.

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 Big Mike 
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I believe psychology is the single most important consideration deserving attention for struggling traders. If you are looking to improve your trading, you often need to look at yourself -- not directly at your method, indicators or tools.

Please join us for a special futures.io (formerly BMT) webinar on Trading Psychology, presented by Dr. Gary Dayton, for more info.

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 zt379 
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Openhand: "5 Gateways" Documentary

YouTube - Openhand: "5 Gateways" Documentary

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 Surly 
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Shivaya - thank you for starting this post. Throughout your posts have been "on topic" and you've gently moved back to "center", i.e., the content you were hoping to discuss in this thread. I appreciate the posters who have presented their thoughts on why simply getting into the "sweet spot" is not enough to win and I agree with them in principle. Mark Douglas points out frequently that traders often experience streaks of winning trades at the beginning of their careers but then catastrophic losses which wake them up to the realities of trading (probabilistic outcomes). His opinion is that at the beginning of their trading they are trading without fear. All of his work comes down to helping traders trade without fear - he believes that re-understanding the reality of trading and aligning your belief system with this reality (probabilistic outcomes) will allow you to trade without fear.

I really like the topic of this thread and what you've touched on throughout - that getting into the "zone" and tapping into the intuitive side of your mind's ability COMBINED with eliminating the blocks to your perception of information and the effect that negative emotion can have on aligning your behavior with the good fundamentals of trading. THIS IS SO KEY!

When you are in a centered state and all your energies are aligned in your purpose, why would you hold a trade that is not working like you expect?
Why would you oversize a position when you know it has a probabilistic outcome?
Why would you get out of a trade that is working and still has room to move to a target that you feel might get hit?
Why would you hesitate to take a trade that you know has good odds of success - you are a trader aren't you?

All performance disciplines come down to ability and focus - trading is no different. My OPINION (caps just so everyone knows I leave open the possibility I am wrong) is that a trader can experience winning streaks at the beginning of their careers because the market conditions align with whatever trading style a given trader applies at that time. It is also my opinion that to become a consistently winning trader, one has to internalize a LOT of information about how markets (people) behave.

Many come to a point where that internalization has happened ( 10000 hours, unconscious competence, etc) because they've done the work of acquiring the ability - which takes time. When a trader reaches this point - the only thing holding them back is themselves - their emotions, psychology, all these things that Shivaya is LETTING GO OF through entering into a "Sweet State". "Letting go" because this is the orientation we must use - these negative states take energy to maintain and they only become stronger when we add energy to them (see Steenbarger's lecture on behavioral change techniques as they relate to trading). I'm going the throw-up in my mouth a little when I say this but letting go of these negative state is all about centering our consciousness on love - love of ourselves, love of reality as it is. When we get into this Loving Mindset we have no reason to hold onto negativity and no reason to act in any way other than what is best for us (i.e., cutting loses, running profits, managing money, continual learning/improvement).

THIS is why I find this thread fascinating and hope that it continues in the vein Shivaya has begun. This state of mind is where we want to be. Don't forget the hard work leading to the internalization of the knowledge required to trade consistently, but once there - put yourself in the "sweet spot" and DO THE RIGHT THING WITHOUT HESITATION OR INTERNAL CONFLICT. Shivaya - please continue to dance here on that border between Right Action (the fundamentals of trading) and Right Mindfulness (the "Sweet State"). Modelling this state for us is helpful - through your prose we can get a glimpse into the proper mindset that we are trying to enter into (this modelling is the basis for neurolinguistic programming BTW).

Thanks again.

Surly

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 Shivaya 
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Shivaya - thank you for starting this post. Throughout your posts have been "on topic" and you've gently moved back to "center", i.e., the content you were hoping to discuss in this thread.
All performance disciplines come down to ability and focus - trading is no different. It is also my opinion that to become a consistently winning trader, one has to internalize a LOT of information about how markets (people) behave.

THIS is why I find this thread fascinating and hope that it continues in the vein Shivaya has begun. This state of mind is where we want to be. Don't forget the hard work leading to the internalization of the knowledge required to trade consistently, but once there - put yourself in the "sweet spot" and DO THE RIGHT THING WITHOUT HESITATION OR INTERNAL CONFLICT. Shivaya - please continue to dance here on that border between Right Action (the fundamentals of trading) and Right Mindfulness (the "Sweet State"). Modelling this state for us is helpful - through your prose we can get a glimpse into the proper mindset that we are trying to enter into.

Thanks again.

Surly

Nice comments Surly,

This subject is difficult to understand if ...you are male! And easy if you are female. Why?

The best person I've found on this subject is Denise Shull. I've read them all, she is just right on the money and in the 'sweet spot'. What is she on about? FEELINGS!

Females know how to FEEL thru things. She has got the attention of the billionaire hedge fund managers and has a book coming in December.

here are some of her teachings I've noted.

1. Embrace the Uncertainty

2. Physically allow yourself to experience the anxiety it provokes

3. Realize this will satisfy your brain that your conscious mind has heard the warning signal and it will lower the static so you can think

4. It is only a physical action that can cause anything to happen

5. Control the action you take

6. It's OK to feel bad, angry, sad, and not do anything, except analyze what is REALLY making you FEEL that way

7. Keep analyzing your feelings until you know what is really making you feel that way. Keep analyzing the data (emotions) BECAUSE ONCE YOU KNOW you have created mental and psychological capital-which is Power!

8. THIS IS HUGE! You have the ability to create Power within yourself simply by understanding yourself. You have the ability to create change simply by analyzing emotion data and not by mixing it up with action

9. We don't just think and do. We FEEL, Think and Do. We need to consciously and explicitly leverage all three

10. STOP controlling emotions. USE them as DATA. Choose your actions carefully once you understand your emotions

IT WORKS!

After entering a trade, it's OK to say "I'm really really nervous" It's OK to write it down, analyze it. It's data about you. Write down your feelings honestly and analyze them. This is key to getting on the good rides in the market. "Know ThySelf" means The Real Self, the SweetSelf. Where is this? In the place of no fear.

Shivaya

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 Shivaya 
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Webinar The Psychology of Having a Market Viewpoint | Mirus Futures

In the theme of this thread. Time again to turn a few traders upside down, inside out and back-to-front. LOL!

Want to understand why these are WRONG!!!

Plan the Trade X
Trade the Plan X
Have no Opinions X
Have no emotion X
NLP X

And why THE BEST TRADERS do the MOST INSTANT Messaging.

Listen to the above link to an hour with Denise Shull.

Shivaya

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 Surly 
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Shivaya - thanks for that link - I look forward to watching it. I have been following Denise Shull for a while and her stuff is great (too bad she keeps pushing back the publication of her book!).

I'm still stuck in the mechanical stage of trading - I'm not quite "good enough" to enter the subjective or intuitive stages just yet. I have flashes of what the subjective or intuitive stages can look like but my mechanical abilities are still in their infancy. That said, all of the points discussed in this thread still apply to the mechanical stage because (as denise argues), like it or not, we are always involving our emotions in our decision making.

surly

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 Gary 
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Shivaya View Post
Webinar The Psychology of Having a Market Viewpoint | Mirus Futures

In the theme of this thread. Time again to turn a few traders upside down, inside out and back-to-front. LOL!

Want to understand why these are WRONG!!!

Plan the Trade X
Trade the Plan X
Have no Opinions X
Have no emotion X
NLP X

And why THE BEST TRADERS do the MOST INSTANT Messaging.

Listen to the above link to an hour with Denise Shull.

Shivaya

Hello @Shivaya,

Thank you for the unique thread/conversation here.

I agree with much of what you have said here, and it relates in many ways to a number of books I have read, as well as my own personal experience. I am most recently reading a book titled the Power of the Subconscious by Joseph Murphy.

I am a big believer in the power of the subconscious, and learning to use it as a tool to help you get to that place you call the 'Sweet State' to help when trading, among other things. I saw what I would call huge leaps in becoming consistent in my trading once I was able to recognize that becoming more self-aware, taking full responsibility, and other psychological aspects were much more important than any set of indicators/trading system. But, for me, in order to build the confidence I needed I had to start with a system which I felt good about, one which spoke to me, and then stick with it for an extended period of time. This experience helped plant the 'good seeds' in my subconscious, which over time, made trading less emotional, and more about focusing on now, which is, focus on what I can control, the ability to execute now, and not think about what just happened and what will happen. I am interested in learning more about Denise Shull and what she has to say.

Thank you again for sharing your experience, and the link on Denise.

Gary

As consistently profitable traders.. "We get paid to wait, and we wait to get paid."
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 rtrade 
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Webinar The Psychology of Having a Market Viewpoint | Mirus Futures

And why THE BEST TRADERS do the MOST INSTANT Messaging.

Namaste Shivaya, good to see you posting again. I listened to the webinar but I didn't get the reason why...The Best Traders do the Most Instant Messaging...can you explain why this is?

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
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 rtrade 
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Gary View Post

I am most recently reading a book titled the Power of the Subconscious by Joseph Murphy.

That is a very Powerful Book, you must Truly Believe in the Source of the Power or your Subconscious will know.

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
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 rtrade 
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"To whom are you directing your requests for help? Now, because
you do not know yourself you do not realize that every single
second of your day, of your life, you're asking for help and
the reason you do that is because there's a certain agitating
part of you that is dissatisfied, that's unhappy, and you want
relief from its persistent torment.

As a matter of a fact, you are always, and listen to the way I
put this now, you are always, even right now as your hearing
this talk, you're in the state of prayer, of request, of asking,
of seeking, of desperately wanting to go somewhere to take yourself
away from where you presently are.

Now I started the talk with asking you to whom are you directing
your prayer, your request.
This question must be so clearly answered
by you that you are jolted, so shocked by the answer to
that question that you begin to turn in the right direction."

Go for it ALL!!! Not just Gold and Glory...

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --- "Therefore, I Believe it and I will see it. And every day and in every way, I am healthier, wealthier, and wiser."
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 Shivaya 
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Namaste Shivaya, good to see you posting again. I listened to the webinar but I didn't get the reason why...The Best Traders do the Most Instant Messaging...can you explain why this is?

Becky,

In my experience the simple answer is attentiveness. Having a group of likeminded traders to text, tweet keeps your attention on the market and the players in the market. The Truth of the market is created by other traders placing orders, not charts. People make trades, people program strategies.

Attention flowers into awareness. Awareness lets go of fear. Awareness dissolves uncertainty, yet as a trader our task is to love uncertainty. (We can all trade yesterdays chart.) This is simple ( now, not easy, but simple) to do with awareness. The key is to get the brain out of the trade. Let the awareness feeling run your trading book.

The reason many top traders tweet is because a tweet is their awareness of the market right now. Try tweeting your own awareness just to yourself (no followers) and at the end of the day you can see how you read the market.

Shivaya

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 Shivaya 
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Consistency exists in attentiveness because in those sweet moments I am free from the activity of the brain. Attention flowers into awareness. Awareness lets go of survival, fear, uncertainty and accumulation. Awareness dissolves uncertainty and connects me to the powerful Sweetness of Being. Just go beyond the ego brain and see.

This is the state to be maintained in trading. It is not that live trading is different from sim trading. Both activities are exactly the same. I have used brainwork to create a strategy and my powerful sweet inner being to trade it. It is the ego brain that wants to control the whole situation whereas in sim the powerful inner being does the trading.

Still the brain and trade from the sweet state and the beautiful awareness beyond the brain takes over. This is the task of a live trader. This state is never achieved through thought and brain. Always beyond thought. The ego brain wants to rule the world, wants to take over the trading. Wants to stress and worry. That is its nature.

Stillness produces a feeling of no-mind. Sometimes called being in the zone, connected to Source, God Inspired, Holy Spirit, Emptiness, Divine Mind. It is in this sweet state feeling that all true trading takes place. This state is not reached through the brain but through a 'feeling' reached in stillness, attentiveness and awareness.

An attentive state of mind can never be deceived. Bad trades are always brought about by a state of casualness. The exact opposite of attentiveness. I need another $230 to give me a $2000 day, so we take a casual trade and lose $1200! Whereas being attentive we only take the good trades. I never ever take a bad trade when I am Being Attentive. Even a losing trade is a good one in attentiveness. Good because we cut the loss correctly.

Shivaya

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 Silver Dragon 
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Shivaya, correct me if I am wrong but in essence you are teaching a form of mindfulness here in your thread. Although yours has more flare than most teachings. I have been learning mindfulness over the past couple of years and have found to be truly useful in all aspects of my life. The ability to be aware of what you are thinking at the time you are thinking it is a unique and outstanding experience. In a lot of ways its like viewing your mind in third person.

For trading, mindfulness has allowed me to understand why I am taking the trade; ie Is it because the indicators are telling me too or is it because I just had 5 successful trades in a row and feel invincible? Obviously the latter is the one to avoid. Although I am still learning, I can not imagine trading without mindfulness.

Keep up the good teachings!

SD



Shivaya View Post
Consistency exists in attentiveness because in those sweet moments I am free from the activity of the brain. Attention flowers into awareness. Awareness lets go of survival, fear, uncertainty and accumulation. Awareness dissolves uncertainty and connects me to the powerful Sweetness of Being. Just go beyond the ego brain and see.

This is the state to be maintained in trading. It is not that live trading is different from sim trading. Both activities are exactly the same. I have used brainwork to create a strategy and my powerful sweet inner being to trade it. It is the ego brain that wants to control the whole situation whereas in sim the powerful inner being does the trading.

Still the brain and trade from the sweet state and the beautiful awareness beyond the brain takes over. This is the task of a live trader. This state is never achieved through thought and brain. Always beyond thought. The ego brain wants to rule the world, wants to take over the trading. Wants to stress and worry. That is its nature.

Stillness produces a feeling of no-mind. Sometimes called being in the zone, connected to Source, God Inspired, Holy Spirit, Emptiness, Divine Mind. It is in this sweet state feeling that all true trading takes place. This state is not reached through the brain but through a 'feeling' reached in stillness, attentiveness and awareness.

An attentive state of mind can never be deceived. Bad trades are always brought about by a state of casualness. The exact opposite of attentiveness. I need another $230 to give me a $2000 day, so we take a casual trade and lose $1200! Whereas being attentive we only take the good trades. I never ever take a bad trade when I am Being Attentive. Even a losing trade is a good one in attentiveness. Good because we cut the loss correctly.

Shivaya


nosce te ipsum

You make your own opportunities in life.
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 monpere 
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Shivaya, correct me if I am wrong but in essence you are teaching a form of mindfulness here in your thread. Although yours has more flare than most teachings. I have been learning mindfulness over the past couple of years and have found to be truly useful in all aspects of my life. The ability to be aware of what you are thinking at the time you are thinking it is a unique and outstanding experience. In a lot of ways its like viewing your mind in third person.

For trading, mindfulness has allowed me to understand why I am taking the trade; ie Is it because the indicators are telling me too or is it because I just had 5 successful trades in a row and feel invincible? Obviously the latter is the one to avoid. Although I am still learning, I can not imagine trading without mindfulness.

Keep up the good teachings!

SD

Why do you need to understand why you are taking the trade? You spent 1500 hours figuring out that, when the market is in this state, and this bar does this and that candle does that, or when this indicator does this, and that indicator does that, and this other indicator does this, then this is a trade setup. And you spent another 1000 hours looking through historical charts to prove that those assumptions are correct most of the time. The reasoning for taking that trade is built in to the method you are trading. Understanding why you are taking the trade at this point should be irrelevant, you already know the reason, you spent 2500 hours figuring out the reason.

If you are not pulling that trigger every time your setup criteria is met, I will tell you the reason why. 2 reasons, greed and fear. Then, every trade you take or skip is rooted from a psychological cause. Every trade you skip is rooted from the fear of losing. Every trade you take is rooted from greed, because you think it has a better chance of making you money. That's why you feel invincible when you get 5 wining trades in a row, you get a compounding accumulation of greed. That's why you hesitate after the 3rd loss, you get a compounding accumulation of fear, because every trade starts from one of those emotions, whether you realize it or not.

The answer is, knowing the historical win percentage of your method, and trusting those stats. No need to predict the market, no need for transcendental meditation, or a mental state above and beyond the norm. The necessary criteria is built in the stats, the necessary analysis is built in the stats, the heard psychology is built in the stats, all you need is already built in the stats. Markets don't radically change overnight, the habits and psychology of market participants don't change overnight. The way they behaved during the 2500 hours of history you looked at, is the same they will behave again in general. Now, every win becomes part of the stats working themselves out, and every loss become part of the stats working themselves out. The result is the removal of the fear and greed, the removal of the bulk of the psychological entanglements with each and every single trade.

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 Silver Dragon 
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monpere, I think you misunderstood the latter part of my post because it sounds like we are saying the same thing: eliminate greed and fear and trade on what you see and what you know. I was merely sharing a example of why a trader might place a trade. One was right decision and the second was the wrong decision. Personally mindfulness has helped me deal with greed and fear when it arises. Your answer to overcome greed and fear is to focus on stats. Same end goal, different ways of getting there.

Its apparent you are a very organized and analytical thinker vs myself which is very analytical / holistic thinker. We are two different brain types. To try to apply your method to me is like fitting a round peg in a square hole. I could do it but I would not be very good at it.

You might be interested in this: I do a lot of team building in my day job, and one of things you have to consider is brain types. Not everybody thinks the same therefore everyone learns differently. We use a test to determine brain types; check out HBDI on google, it is brain dominance analysis. Based on your postings you appear to be a blue/green thinker (Analytical / Organized) where I am blue/yellow (analytical / holistic). See attached graph for the 4 brain types.

SD


monpere View Post
Why do you need to understand why you are taking the trade? You spent 1500 hours figuring out that, when the market is in this state, and this bar does this and that candle does that, or when this indicator does this, and that indicator does that, and this other indicator does this, then this is a trade setup. And you spent another 1000 hours looking through historical charts to prove that those assumptions are correct most of the time. The reasoning for taking that trade is built in to the method you are trading. Understanding why you are taking the trade at this point should be irrelevant, you already know the reason, you spent 2500 hours figuring out the reason.

If you are not pulling that trigger every time your setup criteria is met, I will tell you the reason why. 2 reasons, greed and fear. Then, every trade you take or skip is rooted from a psychological cause. Every trade you skip is rooted from the fear of losing. Every trade you take is rooted from greed, because you think it has a better chance of making you money. That's why you feel invincible when you get 5 wining trades in a row, you get a compounding accumulation of greed. That's why you hesitate after the 3rd loss, you get a compounding accumulation of fear, because every trade starts from one of those emotions, whether you realize it or not.

The answer is, knowing the historical win percentage of your method, and trusting those stats. No need to predict the market, no need for transcendental meditation, or a mental state above and beyond the norm. The necessary criteria is built in the stats, the necessary analysis is built in the stats, the heard psychology is built in the stats, all you need is already built in the stats. Markets don't radically change overnight, the habits and psychology of market participants don't change overnight. The way they behaved during the 2500 hours of history you looked at, is the same they will behave again in general. Now, every win becomes part of the stats working themselves out, and every loss become part of the stats working themselves out. The result is the removal of the fear and greed, the removal of the bulk of the psychological entanglements with each and every single trade.


nosce te ipsum

You make your own opportunities in life.
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