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Going Beyond Psychology to make Winning Trades and Nice Profits
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Going Beyond Psychology to make Winning Trades and Nice Profits

  #21 (permalink)
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"That has now become the only reason for my trading. The inner sweet state I am able to achieve in a trade is sweeter than any profits it produces."

Thats pretty interesting Shivaya. Are you saying that you trade only as a way to achieve the 'sweet state'? If so then trading is just a form of meditation for you?

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  #22 (permalink)
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Linds View Post
"That has now become the only reason for my trading. The inner sweet state I am able to achieve in a trade is sweeter than any profits it produces."

Thats pretty interesting Shivaya. Are you saying that you trade only as a way to achieve the 'sweet state'? If so then trading is just a form of meditation for you?

Well not quite Linds,

I now look to trade only when I am already in the 'sweet state'. So first I look to get into the sweet state and then trade. Yes, trading has become meditation. Walking has become meditation. My responses to situations are meditations. Let's say someone has a real lash out in anger at something I write on this thread. Gives me both barrels. Their hassle is never with me, but themselves. It is never what they say but how I respond to it. It's the same with a loss. Tha hassle is NOT the loss, it's how I respond to it.

What do I do with a few profits, buy a few first editions? I don't want or need anymore stuff! I travel light. So now trading is a game of inner meditation and has opened a whole new world for me. Exciting. Love it! Just thought I'd share. The main thing is though, you can access your own personal inner being and find the same state. This is not a game of someone tapping into my inner self for info. No, I'm here to say, Tap into your own amazing being. Your treasure is there!

Shivaya

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  #23 (permalink)
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tigertrader View Post
Congratulations, you should have more money than Oprah, quicker than lager turns to piss!

thank you for your kind words - merry xmas

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  #24 (permalink)
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jstnbrg View Post
I don't think that a "sweet state" alone leads to trading profits, but I have always felt that when I am doing something my absolute best, whether it is trading, golf, tennis, minesweeper, Defender, whatever, that I am in a state where the critical, conscious, verbal mind is quiet and I just react automatically to the action going on around me. "The Inner Game of Tennis" by Timothy Gallwey is about how to learn to achieve that state of mind. It seems that activities with very continuous action, like Minesweeper and the old video game Defender bring about that state of mind for me the most easily because I have to concentrate so intensely and react continuously. Pit trading in a fast market was the same; no time to reflect, just act! I don't often experience that state sitting at a screen waiting for the next set up.




Call it what you may. I call it focus, emotional control , and what Brett Steenbarger describes as "conceptual integration". He suggested that conceptual integration is essential to the acquisition of expertise in any field. He compared the expertise of the diagnosing physician to that of a long term investor. Both activities require a conscious integration of information acquired over a considerable period. A large fund of knowledge is brought to bear on a particular situation to make a proper decision.


The short-term trader or scalper is more akin to a fighter pilot, or race car driver, who must must integrate information on the fly, making critical decisions by "instinct" alone.
Such instinct, however, is actually highly automatized skill. The expert scalper integrates a huge amount of information from price, volume, time of day, and shifts in the depth of market. This integration, however, is not a deliberative process. It is built into the scalper's perception.

Dr Brett goes on to say, Perceptually-based expertise is an evolutionary necessity. it is the function of training to immerse performers in the real-time patterns of a performance field to hone this perceptually-based expertise. This is one way in which the training of short-term traders is more similar to that of expert atheletes than to Supreme Court justices. Investors can learn to weigh evidence and render reasonable decisions like judges. Very short-term traders, however, need their expertise built into their perceptual systems. They are more like race car drivers navigating a speedway than vacationers consulting maps for destinations.

This explains why you find it easier to "get in the zone" when scalping in the pit, playing tennis, or a playing a video game, but not when looking for swing setups. The longer the time-frame, the more important the role of explicit deliberation and reasoning. The shorter the time-frame, the greater the need for rapid perceptual processing based upon pattern recognition.


Many of the problems traders face is not a result of a lack of focus, or a failure to become one with the market, rather than a faulty integration of the two different (time-frame) kinds of expertise. Steenbarger asserts that trading problems arise when we commingle the two different information-processing systems, i.e., entering the trade with one, but managing the trade with the other. In other words, trades must be managed on the same basis they were put on.


Last edited by tigertrader; December 23rd, 2010 at 12:53 PM. Reason: typo
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  #25 (permalink)
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Shivaya View Post
Thank you Jstnbrg,


This thread is beyond psychology, beyond mind. I've left all that stuff. The new generation of traders will access this region of their consciousness and blow the old schoolers back into driving taxis.

Shivaya

Actually, Jeff Castille and I were going to form a rock band, and give U2 a run for their money. The meter's running, Bono!

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  #26 (permalink)
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tigertrader View Post



Call it what you may. I call it focus, emotional control , and what Brett Steenbarger describes as "conceptual integration". He suggested that conceptual integration is essential to the acquisition of expertise in any field. He compared the expertise of the diagnosing physician to that of a long term investor. Both activities require a conscious integration of information acquired over a considerable period. A large fund of knowledge is brought to bear on a particular situation to make a proper decision.


The short-term trader or scalper is more akin to a fighter pilot, or race car driver, who must must integrate information on the fly, making critical decisions by "instinct" alone.
Such instinct, however, is actually highly automatized skill. The expert scalper integrates a huge amount of information from price, volume, time of day, and shifts in the depth of market. This integration, however, is not a deliberative process. It is built into the scalper's perception.

Dr Brett goes on to say, Perceptually-based expertise is an evolutionary necessity. it is the function of training to immerse performers in the real-time patterns of a performance field to hone this perceptually-based expertise. This is one way in which the training of short-term traders is more similar to that of expert atheletes than to Supreme Court justices. Investors can learn to weigh evidence and render reasonable decisions like judges. Very short-term traders, however, need their expertise built into their perceptual systems. They are more like race car drivers navigating a speedway than vacationers consulting maps for destinations.

This explains why you find it easier to "get in the zone" when scalping in the pit, playing tennis, or a playing a video game, but not when looking for swing setups. The longer the time-frame, the more important the role of explicit deliberation and reasoning. The shorter the time-frame, the greater the need for rapid perceptual processing based upon pattern recognition.


Many of the problems traders face is not a result of a lack of focus, or a failure to become one with the market, rather than a faulty integration of the two different (time-frame) kinds of expertise. Steenbarger asserts that trading problems arise when we commingle the two different information-processing systems, i.e., entering the trade with one, but managing the trade with the other. In other words, trades must be managed on the same basis they were put on.


This is right on the money. I love Brett Steenbarger books. Reading the trading coach again for the second time. This is in the top 3 books to read IMO.

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  #27 (permalink)
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tigertrader View Post
Actually, Jeff Castille and I were going to form a rock band, and give U2 a run for their money. The meter's running, Bono!

Great band. Please come and do a gig in Ireland. With or without you has just 4 chords -- D A Bm and G. You just gotta find that sweet state of inspiration where the chords become a song and the song a massive hit. You can do it!

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  #28 (permalink)
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tigertrader View Post


This explains why you find it easier to "get in the zone" when scalping in the pit, playing tennis, or a playing a video game, but not when looking for swing setups. The longer the time-frame, the more important the role of explicit deliberation and reasoning. The shorter the time-frame, the greater the need for rapid perceptual processing based upon pattern recognition.

Steenbarger asserts that trading problems arise when we commingle the two different information-processing systems, i.e., entering the trade with one, but managing the trade with the other. In other words, trades must be managed on the same basis they were put on.

Thanks Tigertrader, All makes good sense and I am a fan of Steenbarger and have his books, but I wanted to explore beyond the trained psychologist's mind. Beyond books and more from personal realization. In the world of charts my favorite setups are my own discovery. I do not use anyone else's stuff. I have yet to meet a trader who has not realized the key is in knowing himself. Even after reading all the books doing all the practice, why did I do that dumb trade?

I am in a short trade and it feels like sellers are drying up. My intuition says reverse. How do I know when to trust my intuition? I have found for me personally the answer is when I am in the sweet inner state. I swing trade too. Makes no difference. I trust my Inner Self when I am in the long term sweet zone. I trust my "In the State of Sweet Consciousness" analysis both short and longer term. I use separate accounts to do this though. No one can take us there. It is our personal journey. I avoided that journey for years. So many belief systems to get free from. No more.

Sweetness is our inner necessity. If that is not satisfied, nothing is satisfied. I have simply found the chords to bring my trading into that joyful sweetness.

Shivaya

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  #29 (permalink)
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While driving to work, one frigid Chicago morning, I hit some "black ice" and spun around 360 Degrees, (damn those narrow wheel based rear wheel drive German cars) hit a retaining wall totaling my car, and was in the pit 30 minutes later, trading bonds like nothing had happened. I missed the opening and didn't get to go through my daily preparatory routine. I just walked into the pit and started trading and ended up having a relatively decent day.

There are 3 points I'm trying to make while relating this story. Life and circumstances get in the way of the perpetual attainment of "complete peace of mind", you can train yourself to focus and tune out distractions, and if you can read price action you can make money trading.

I do think it is unrealistic to think that you can always be in this "state of sweetness" because life gets in the way. Obviously, how you deal with the vicissitudes of life will determine your emotional state.
Positive changes will only be realized when you let go of the selfish and self-defeating side of your emotions, which blocks your mind and clouds your decisions. But that being said, when you aren't in this perfect , zen-like place, it boils down to your ability to sit down and focus, concentrate, and control your emotions.

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tigertrader View Post
Life and circumstances get in the way of the perpetual attainment of "complete peace of mind", you can train yourself to focus and tune out distractions, and if you can read price action you can make money trading.

I do think it is unrealistic to think that you can always be in this "state of sweetness" because life gets in the way.
But that being said, when you aren't in this perfect , zen-like place, it boils down to your ability to sit down and focus, concentrate, and control your emotions.

OR....and this is what I am playing with here. When life gets in the way, realize that and get back into the "state of sweetness". That too just takes some practice. Reach in for a feel good feeling and expand it. Feel it, not think it.

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