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Traders with 5-10 years of experience but still not profitable
People share their trades in their journals all the time. Many of those are Elite only, which you won't know about since you decided against Elite Membership (or you were previously banned and this is a dupe account?)
I've temporarily banned you for a period of 1 month, after reading your recent posts. Trolling is not welcome here. This community is a positive one. Please keep things positive and helpful.
Edit: I edited my comment about vendors, apparently he was joking about it and the mod team let me know I was mistaken.
From some one of your capabilities, experience and generosity with your knowledge and time over the years, I really appreciate your kind comments.
Thank you very much.
You do not win as a trader, you just get to play again the next day. If that game doesn’t appeal to you then you should not trade. Gary Norden
Hi to everybody!
I though that I just alone in this hard journey of learning how trading works?
I agree with all of you that this is about consistency, and avoiding negative results (money management trader mindset & not overtrading).
I tried everything (using Fibo?s, Elliot Waves, bots, etc.)!
We just need to focus what really moves the market and when it finish and when it stops moving and not to focus on market price.
I?m in contact with an algo developer and he taught me what is really behind market price (volume).
For people interested to contact him, just let me know.
Have a happy trading journey!
Best regards,
RJ
Yes, he had lots of good PnL numbers from the previous few years at his booth. But I didn't pay the fee to attend his "real" seminar to get more details. The NY Traders Expo back then was like a zoo, lots of things happening at the same time, many seminars on various trading topics, new trading systems, etc.
People can struggle for a lifetime and never be profitable, they would be "better off" just buying SPY or QQQ whenever they have extra money.
This is a hard because there is very little consistent edge in financial markets, particularly in intraday trading. There are times when there are fairly obvious macro level trading ideas that people can take advantage of. Joe Biden being sworn in after he basically declared war on oil and gas for example. Anyone taking some time and analyzing this from a financial perspective should have gone long oil and gas either through CL and NG or USO and UNG or perhaps some options plays. The Russian invasion of Ukraine and resulting sanctions has also presented these macro level opportunities. These kinds of things are mostly irrelevant to discussion on this board.
There are lots of YouTube channels dedicated to back testing various combinations of indicators - there are dozens of these channels. Many back test 100 trades and present results and tips for optimization. There is no shortage of trading ideas. The problem is none of them really work. That's why this is so hard - most things you do will end up losing you money. Chart patterns are BS. Candlestick patterns are BS. MA crosses, RSI, Stochastics, Bollinger Bands, Keltner Channels, MACD, Fibs - all of this is BS. None of it will consistently make any money.
Some of the most intelligent people on the plant are trying to figure out how to extract money from financial markets. Many/most of them work for large quant firms. This is who you are up against. They are smarter than you are by a lot. That's why it's so hard and that's why most people will never be able to turn this into a source of income. If it were easy this board would not exist. If it were easy there would not be a thousand sharks posing as "trading coaches" out there trying to take your money. If this were easy there would not be 1000 YouTube channels with fools LARPing about how great they are at trading (and trying to take your money). It's not easy, it's fucking hard. It's one step away from being impossible.
Yes, market knowledge, money management and emotional discipline are the three areas that a trader needs to master. Without a doubt. But still, they are too broad. What ?market knowledge? means to a swing trader that holds a trade for the day, several days or a several weeks is different than what it means to a Scalper trading the ES who gets out at 6 ticks. A Swing Trader will generally have a greater account size and will not be taking as many trades as say a Scalper. There may be more differences but the point is, if you are a Swing Trader using an Exit Stop (or not using a Stop), your trade management is going to be different than a Scalper who?s Exit Stop will normally be above or below the swing. So right there is a difference just in the way a trader trades which directly effects money management. Do these two different trading methods effect one differently on the emotional level? You bet! When in and out of a trade in 1.5 minutes as a Scalper, there is normally less emotion involved. At least in terms of length of time. I?m a Scalper but I can assure you, if I was holding over night, I might have a hard time sleeping that night not knowing what the market might do, therefor would need a much larger Stop or perhaps a Trailing Stop, and therefor a much larger account. Now we are also back into Emotion/Stress. Personally, I would get out before the end of the day, if I held even that long. There might be one more factor and that?s personality, meaning is one a get-in-and-get-out type or able to operate and hold longer term like the Swing trader?
So far, we have established that there may be one additional aspect (personality) and have not really answered the main question. In the movie Forrest Gump, Forrest poses a very philosophical question and I believe he answers it properly: ?Do We Have a Destiny or Are We Floating Around Accidental Like on a Breeze? His conclusion is both. By the way, I will not apologize for getting philosophical here because my understandings have brought me to believe that trading does have a philosophical ingredient and aspect. The markets are essentially a living, breathing thing that seems to have a mind of it?s own. But that?s only because it is you and I who are the traders and you and I are living and breathing. We make decisions emotionally, on-the-fly, suddenly or not and each of us effect the market. Even the computers are programmed by living, breathing people.
Here?s the way I see it: And this is after 5 years of intense and full time learning and training as a trader. If you have deep pockets/large account, and can handle emotional pressure without consequence, go for being a Swing trader. Figure out one two two market patterns you feel you can trade and then do it. If you?re like me, pockets deep enough to live comfortably but risk averse, be a Scalper and trade as many contracts as your account and risk management permits. BUT, and I say this with the utmost emphasis, figure out or learn a system of trading that has a high enough win rate to offset your account size. In my case, as a Scalper, I keep a relatively small account and trade 3 or 4 or 5 contracts per trade. And I?m in and out. But I also know exactly what I am looking for and wait out the trades that are ?almost? setups. Skip them and only take the trades that are proven high probability trades. So I must add patience as general requirement to be a consistent trader.
On a side note, there are too many choices and decisions to make just to get started as a trader which complicates matters?.. Ninjatrader 7 or 8, Multicharts, Sierra Charts, ThinkorSwim, etc., etc., etc. New York or Chicago or? Stock Market, Futures, Options? ES, MES, Nikkei, Russell, etc., etc., etc. - whats the right combination? Is there a ?right? combination? Unfortunately, this factor of what combination, does play at least a small part.
Sorry if I confused and complicated things with that last paragraph but it needs to be said. As traders we are up against a lot of data much of which is arbitrary and false.
More on what I am trying to say: If your trade win rate is low (lets say around 30%), you?ll need to have a large enough account to work with the losses, until the market gives you the trade you?ve been waiting for. Then you can recoup the losses. But this is not all of us. If you have a set of rules that work as a Scalper, and you?re trade win rate is closer to 70% and you get out of trades AS SOON as they go against you, you can make a living as a day trader as long as you apply discipline and follow the rules. What rules? Your trade execution (what the price action is telling you, do not counter trend trade, tested support and resistance, etc.) and personal rules (well rested, well fed, exercise, not in the middle of an argument with the significant other, etc.).
Oh, and by the way, SIM trade ONLY, until you figure things out. NEVER trade your money until you are consistent on the simulator.
Again, what the hell am I trying to say here?: It involves all of the above. And if it is not working, one or all are not complete...there is something wrong with one or all (market knowledge, money management, emotional discipline) and again, lets not forget personality. How are you wired/rigged?
There ARE successful traders. And not the marketers that say they made $22,000 in one day trading. It is very possible that marketer did actually do that...but by accident. Not because he knew exactly what they were doing. And the real test is, can he do it again? The ?make $500 per day? guys are also in this boat...large boat of marketers who are not consistent traders. Do you want to know the dead giveaway of their inability to trade? I?ll tell you...they talk MONEY not CONSISTENCY. A consistent trader is a profitable trader. Focus on the money and you are already getting emotional about a profession where emotion does not belong. Be consistent and the money happens. Trade for points or ticks not money per contract. These are the ways to choose who you want to learn from. So, get a mentor who knows what they are doing. I can name three you can find online who are actual traders and not really marketers. Mack from priceactiontradingsystem.com, FuturesTrader71 and Al Brooks. Of the two, in my own personal opinion, Mack has the What-Is-The-Market-Doing and the when-to-enter-a-trade part covered. And FT71 covers the other factors like emotion and trade management and has a very well put together online community or traders helping each other. Not long ago Mack created a forum which also helps serve as a type of trading community. Mr. Brooks, the day trading professor, well, for me, he was just way over my head too much of the time. He might make a lot more sense to me now though.
Trading, as a Scalper anyways, is strictly performance based. At your day job, you can get away with having a so-so or bad day and just do your time for the day. And when Friday comes, you?ll get paid, like always. As a trader, if you?re ?off? a bit, you?ve just increased your chance of having a losing trade. Trading is performance based. If you?re a brain surgeon, you MUST perform. Day Trading is similar in that, you must perform because when you don?t it is just far too easy to loss money. Here we?re talking about discipline and a self-awareness that is required so you can see yourself.
So above are my understandings of your question on why after 5-10 years are traders still not consistent and therefore not profitable. I can continue on this line but I think Big Mike might want to give the floor to others here too, which I can respect. I hope this helps in some way.
In the (my) final analysis, trading/participating in the market place can be likened to a 1000 piece puzzle.
You start out by looking at all the pieces and think "Crap"!, I wonder if I can ever get this. But then you lay hold of one piece and connect it to another. You search and search to fine the next piece.
Meanwhile, your family and friends say or think "You'll never get it put together". But you persist.
Why should a person be rewarded with a complete puzzle until they do the hard yards and put in their time.
People want the results (money) without the pain of years of struggle, loss of potential income, disappointment, time consuming research/practice/loss, dedication, postponement of success/profits and ...on and on and on.
If you can learn this craft without most of the above, then Kudos to you! I am of just average intelligence and things take longer. But I can tell you one thing for sure, there are attributes that I possess that many high functioning individuals may never possess. Those are my own personal strengths.
With that said, I build my own trading business on MY own personal talents and nobody elses. That is something that I had to figure out for myself. Learning to trade how I see things, not like ? and ? and ?.
If we want to succeed, we need to open our eyes to our own potential. Be thankful for what we can do and then go do it. Fall, then get up and keep going.
These are the attributes, drives and perseverance that built Western Civilization.
I'm going to keep mine very short, cause I'm not as eloquent as many of you who've offered some amazing insight on this thread.
For me, I've spent 40yrs now in show business, both as an actor, singer, and musician, and in the arts you NEVER arrive. There's not a destination that you know you'll get to and THEN you'll be successful. And then you'll make money. And then, and then. You call yourself an artist the moment you decide to. It is, and will always be, a journey. A journey of discovery each and every day. Filled with failures and disappointments. And moments of sheer joy and mountain top experiences. But we know that we are never 'there'. We'll never get it just right.... because we don't WANT it to be. We want the CHALLENGE. We want to be better. We want to try it again and create something even more spectacular. We want the failures, we embrace them. Because failure leads to success.
So, when I started trading, it just felt similar in so many ways. Like trading is an artform. It's ever moving and changing and hard to calculate with one equation. It's organic and alive. I know it's hard because each move we make is either profit or loss, and unlike most normal jobs, if you do bad on the job...most of time no one hardly notices (or cares even). You certainly don't ruin the company with a few mistakes here and there. And you have time to fix the issue and become a better employee or leave the company.
But each trade execution that goes wrong is an immediate failure, both mentally, emotionally, and financially.
That's very much the artist lifestyle. We have to perfect each note, each line or we'll feel each mistake deeply, and desperately need to fix it. But that drive is what has made me successful, ignore the rejection, and hone my craft day after day.
So that's how I chose to approach the trading lifestyle. Day by day, trade by trade, loss and gain, and gain and loss. Art is a lifelong expression of passion. This trading life isn't a destination but a journey. So, for those wondering "will I ever arrive and be a successful trader?" - the answer is - Yes, the moment you CHOOSE to work on your craft of trading. That's the moment you will begin to be a successful trader. When and how long is completely up to you.
Have you ever watched an Olympian play their sport? Or a concert pianist play Rachmaninoff? Or a fighter pilot fly one of the most complex machines every built? Pure dedication, passion, grit, fortitude, (yes some genetics mixed in too!), and a life-long commitment.
So chose today to stay the course, enjoy the journey, embrace the failures, and above all... pay forward kindness whenever possible.
