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I finally blew up an account


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I finally blew up an account

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  #101 (permalink)
 Sandpaddict 
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fxzen View Post
I just wanted to second this book. I've read all the popular psychology books, some many times over, and watched tons of videos from ones like Steenbarger et al, and this book blows them all away. It's not just a book about theory but gives you practical tools to build an system to improve your mental and emotional game.

Knowing why your emotional mind takes over doesn't prevent it from happening - you need to develop the emotional skills to identify the signals before it takes over and renders your logical mind useless, and this book can help you do that.

You need to do the deep work, this isn't a quick fix, but can give you the understanding, the tools and a plan to get there.

Unfortunately Blew I personally don't think you are there yet.

Please understand I mean no harm but based on your response to all the feedback it sounds like your going right back in with the same biases.

I have not read this book but check out the table of contents.

There are layers and layers of complexity to our behavior and you can't just WILL it away. It just doesn't work like that.

Many people, me included, suggest an absolute MAX position of %1.

I would even suggest %.5 MAX.

Remember... it's NOT your trading that's going to keep you in the game it's the ability to keep your capital intact to take the next bet.

No amount of WILL power will change anything. And science has proven that will power is a finite resource.

Like the great Daniel Kahneman has said (I paraphrase) "just because I understand certain human biases doesn't mean I'm any less susceptible to them".

Best of luck my friend.

Just my humble opinion.

Joseph

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  #102 (permalink)
zzzz2021
Toronto Canada
 
 
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I'm not making this up and I hope this post would help those who are about or went through blowing up your account. I've to apologize first that my english is suck and I don't socialize much with people.

I blew up my first trading account only a couple of years after graduating from university from trading hi-tech stocks to nat gas. Money in that trading account was savings that I saved from years of working between jobs.

I then took few years off from trading to focus on learning more about technical stuff. I decided to begin to trade again this time from some of savings I had + my gf who lived with me for over a year. I only focused on day trading 2x leveraged ETFs that tracked the S&P500. For about two years of day trading these leveraged ETFs, I were able to make some 5 figures in return. I became overconfident and began to get greedy. Instead of continuing doing what I were doing at best, I began to trade only weekly SPY option once this product was available for retail traders like us to trade. I lost more than 6 figures in this account and blew it up. I thought of getting suicide for several times and I didn't have the courage to tell my wife that I blew the account (we married for few months after I sponsored her to live in Canada.) While I kept accumulating those losses, I took out more than $30k from my credit card and put it into my trading account without telling her. I thought I could make it back without her knowing it. Due to unstable mental, I lost them all. At this moment, I couldn't make fake smiles or pretend nothing happens to her, my wife noticed it within days and kept asking me what went wrong. A week after I blew my account, she figured out that it had to do with trading and that she wanted to see my trading account. I admitted the truth and I was very sure that she would divorce me (my eyes are tearing each time I recall that moment) and I was pretty sure that I'd kill myself once she left me. Out of my surprise, she told me that it was not a big deal and we could overcome it together. Fastforward to few months later, she worked for 2 jobs to support me while I went back to school to upgrade my skills because I couldn't find a job in my field due to outdated skills.

A decade later, I continued to master my skills in trading Futures instrument like ES/NQ, CL(crude) or GC (gold) by developing my own trading system to trade while working between jobs. This time, I began to become more discipline and I wouldn't hesitate to punish myself big if I break rules. It took me a decade to back-testing, forward-testing and improving some reliable strategies as well as eliminating those that didn't produce high winrate in the long term.
In the present, I'm slowly making it back but far from recovering losses from 13+ years ago. I sit down with my wife at the end of every month to review my trading performance and that I must be honest with her this time.

-------------------------------------------------

What I'd like to share with other posters here is that you have to document or keep a journal of every trade with an emphasis on losing trades. If the mistake is on me, then there must be some kind of punishments involved to make myself discipline again. If it has to do with breaking news that I wasn't aware of, there is nothing I could do about it. If I accumulate two consecutive losing trades from the same strategy, I'd begin to question why. I'll stop trading any strategy with 3 consecutive losses until I figure out how to make it work again.

IMO, having a journal would likely prevent us from gambling or digging a big hole to our account because it reminds us what strategy we're about to trade and rules that we've to follow. It also gives us a clear picture why some strategies work well in some specific market conditions, but not others.

Good luck everyone.

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  #103 (permalink)
redbarntrades
Kalispell=Mt./USA
 
 
Posts: 99 since Sep 2019
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Yep, losing your "earning" really does suck!

It's the price you payed for learning the next phase of being a trader.

Since you were not able to stop your losses, you had to have a kick up the back side to get your attention.

Some thoughts:

1. You did not BLOW up your account! You just gave back your earnings.
2. Now that the market has your attention, how are you going to deal with your revenge habit. There are plenty of resources out there which can help including many of the great comments that you have received.
3. Make it your goal to become a good trader not making the money. Yes, I know we all want to make the money but we all have to learn to play the game before we get payed.

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  #104 (permalink)
redbarntrades
Kalispell=Mt./USA
 
 
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zzzz2021 View Post
I'm not making this up and I hope this post would help those who are about or went through blowing up your account. I've to apologize first that my english is suck and I don't socialize much with people.

I blew up my first trading account only a couple of years after graduating from university from trading hi-tech stocks to nat gas. Money in that trading account was savings that I saved from years of working between jobs.

I then took few years off from trading to focus on learning more about technical stuff. I decided to begin to trade again this time from some of savings I had + my gf who lived with me for over a year. I only focused on day trading 2x leveraged ETFs that tracked the S&P500. For about two years of day trading these leveraged ETFs, I were able to make some 5 figures in return. I became overconfident and began to get greedy. Instead of continuing doing what I were doing at best, I began to trade only weekly SPY option once this product was available for retail traders like us to trade. I lost more than 6 figures in this account and blew it up. I thought of getting suicide for several times and I didn't have the courage to tell my wife that I blew the account (we married for few months after I sponsored her to live in Canada.) While I kept accumulating those losses, I took out more than $30k from my credit card and put it into my trading account without telling her. I thought I could make it back without her knowing it. Due to unstable mental, I lost them all. At this moment, I couldn't make fake smiles or pretend nothing happens to her, my wife noticed it within days and kept asking me what went wrong. A week after I blew my account, she figured out that it had to do with trading and that she wanted to see my trading account. I admitted the truth and I was very sure that she would divorce me (my eyes are tearing each time I recall that moment) and I was pretty sure that I'd kill myself once she left me. Out of my surprise, she told me that it was not a big deal and we could overcome it together. Fastforward to few months later, she worked for 2 jobs to support me while I went back to school to upgrade my skills because I couldn't find a job in my field due to outdated skills.

A decade later, I continued to master my skills in trading Futures instrument like ES/NQ, CL(crude) or GC (gold) by developing my own trading system to trade while working between jobs. This time, I began to become more discipline and I wouldn't hesitate to punish myself big if I break rules. It took me a decade to back-testing, forward-testing and improving some reliable strategies as well as eliminating those that didn't produce high winrate in the long term.
In the present, I'm slowly making it back but far from recovering losses from 13+ years ago. I sit down with my wife at the end of every month to review my trading performance and that I must be honest with her this time.

-------------------------------------------------

What I'd like to share with other posters here is that you have to document or keep a journal of every trade with an emphasis on losing trades. If the mistake is on me, then there must be some kind of punishments involved to make myself discipline again. If it has to do with breaking news that I wasn't aware of, there is nothing I could do about it. If I accumulate two consecutive losing trades from the same strategy, I'd begin to question why. I'll stop trading any strategy with 3 consecutive losses until I figure out how to make it work again.



IMO, having a journal would likely prevent us from gambling or digging a big hole to our account because it reminds us what strategy we're about to trade and rules that we've to follow. It also gives us a clear picture why some strategies work well in some specific market conditions, but not others.

Good luck everyone.

Wow! Perhaps you should change your name to "Overcomer"! You are testimony to others. When you married your wife, you did a very good thing. You are blessed to have such a woman by your side!

Many women would have ditched you as soon as they could. The fact that she has been supportive over all of these years, shows her love for you!

Stay on your path! Most of the hard yards are behind you! I am proud of your story!

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  #105 (permalink)
zzzz2021
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redbarntrades View Post
Wow! Perhaps you should change your name to "Overcomer"! You are testimony to others. When you married your wife, you did a very good thing. You are blessed to have such a woman by your side!

Many women would have ditched you as soon as they could. The fact that she has been supportive over all of these years, shows her love for you!

Stay on your path! Most of the hard yards are behind you! I am proud of your story!

Most chinese parents are highly materialistic people and they would not hesitate to treat you like garbage as soon as they realize you're in financial trouble. It doesn't matter how well you treated them or cared for them.

For years, they tried to find ways to make her divorcing me by torturing her mentally and they even announced to disown her after her dad had a quarrel with me while they stayed in Canada for over a year. After that argument, they went back to China and ever since then, her dad never talked to her and he past away three years ago in China due to terminal cancer. Her mom only talked to her recently and allowed my wife to see her recently in China before Covid-19.

I came from a poor and big family and we immigrated to Canada from Vietnam in 1990s. I had to work for all kind of part-time jobs while attending high school to support my family as a young male. I never had any financial support from my parents in my life. For many times, I wish my parents never gave birth to me at all.

Yes, you are right that I'm lucky to have a supportive wife. That's the only luck I've in my life and it really makes me to feel much more stressful if I can't do well financially.

----------------

Okay, I'm done with posting my personal story on this thread. Sorry OP.

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  #106 (permalink)
 Sandpaddict 
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delux9 View Post
When I started trading I had boom and bust results. Turns out when I dug down, my strategy was not as good as I thought it was. If I took a trade and was right, great! If I was wrong I doubled down until I was right. The nice thing about this is it makes money most of the time. The bad part is one day you blow up your account in 15 minutes.

Thereís a lot psychologically to unpack here as others have eluded to but one thing I will echo is to set a daily loss limit with your broker. Thereís absolutely no reason not to. If the most youíre willing to lose in a day is $1000, set it at $1000. Or if you hate having a daily loss limit, think itís pointless, and the most your willing to lose is $1000, set it at $2000. At least that way if you hit it, you know you really screwed up. Better than losing 10x that. Itís possible for the best of us to have months of discipline, then one day go on full tilt, chimp mode, etc. One interesting thing Iíve noticed about myself is once I set a daily loss limit, Iíve hit it only a handful of times in years. I think it keeps me honest knowing I need to stick to a plan and use risk management rather than doubling down and sizing up until Iím right and ďget back to evenĒ.

I never thought about doubling my risk as a way of convincing myself to do it.

If I want a max $1000 daily loss. I'm very unlikely to tell my broker to cut it there as I would be upset if I got close it and came out.

So starting with the $1000 reference point once you get to $1200... $1400... $1800... which of course you probably will you can really curse yourself all you want as you will be beside yourself with your stupidity to let it run past $1000.

The great psychological trick here is you can get your brain hating yourself at much smaller amounts of capital. Signaling to your brain the need for correction.

And if you hit that $2000 then you know you should stop to take a look at yourself but at least you survived to play another day.

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  #107 (permalink)
redbarntrades
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zzzz2021 View Post
Most chinese parents are highly materialistic people and they would not hesitate to treat you like garbage as soon as they realize you're in financial trouble. It doesn't matter how well you treated them or cared for them.

For years, they tried to find ways to make her divorcing me by torturing her mentally and they even announced to disown her after her dad had a quarrel with me while they stayed in Canada for over a year. After that argument, they went back to China and ever since then, her dad never talked to her and he past away three years ago in China due to terminal cancer. Her mom only talked to her recently and allowed my wife to see her recently in China before Covid-19.

I came from a poor and big family and we immigrated to Canada from Vietnam in 1990s. I had to work for all kind of part-time jobs while attending high school to support my family as a young male. I never had any financial support from my parents in my life. For many times, I wish my parents never gave birth to me at all.

Yes, you are right that I'm lucky to have a supportive wife. That's the only luck I've in my life and it really makes me to feel much more stressful if I can't do well financially.

----------------

Okay, I'm done with posting my personal story on this thread. Sorry OP.

I speak to you as one who is probably old enough to be your father. I have to say that as a father, that I would be proud of you and your wife! I told my adult children a decade ago that they have to PROVE their own life. Prove what they are made of. Prove who they are as individuals. Prove their own virtues and talents.

Your wife has shown herself to be a woman of virtue by standing by you through difficult times and pressing on to better times.

You both can count your own blessings. Name them one by one. Enjoy them.

The behavior of other adults (even family members) is beyond our control. They have to own up to their own actions. I hope your wife can rest in the fact that she has done right by you and it will pay off in the long long road of life. Money, is just a necessity. It does not define us. The virtues that you both have shown is far more valuable that gold.

Thank you for your honesty. I'm very glad to have corresponded with you!

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  #108 (permalink)
 ASU2 
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Sorry to hear about your experience. It's painful. I know. I was averaging $1k/day trading 10 contracts in ZB. All I was taking out of the market was 3-4 ticks per day. Simple. Then things went south. Sometimes a good, clear entry signal turns against you. The market trades several times at your target price and your order doesn't get filled. Feeling so sure I was right I expanded my stop, only to take a bigger loss. Started revenge trading. Never works. Welcome to the club. It''s a very large one. Sorry if I sound facetious, but you should not feel alone.

I learned never to expand a stop. Only move stops to BE and/or trailing your position. I took a vacation. Revenge is an emotion. I had to wait until I could trade without emotion once again. And even when I came back and sustained a losing trade, I stopped trading for the day. After awhile I accepted my stop losses as part of my pretty good win %. Your situation is anything but hopeless. Good trading.

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  #109 (permalink)
 Sandpaddict 
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glennts View Post
Quit your whining and get back on the horse. Nobody said it was going to be easy. The good thing is that while most people will blow $60k through an endless series of operator errors stretching over many months or years because of denial and an inability to learn and improve, you got it all over with in a few days. Think of all the time you have saved.

Going to spare you the sophistry because you know how you screwed up and you obviously have the skills to get back on track but I do have one suggestion.

If you pay your taxes quarterly, that is a good time to pull profits out of your account and do a reset of your trading account balance. You've just had a reset to $10K so when September rolls around, pay yourself for all your hard work and reset to $15k. Next quarter reset to $20K. This will allow you to increase size as you demonstrate competence and self-control while at the same time having a circuit breaker in place for the next time you lose your mind.

Without that withdrawal all profit is theoretical.

Good luck.

Wow ok.

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  #110 (permalink)
feinbern
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I hate to keep harping on about automation but I just donít understand why people donít do it. Itís kind of an obvious question and one that I asked myself after taking heavy losses over a long period of time. If youíre supposed to trade without emotion then inevitably youíre following a certain set of rules (many good ones have already appeared on this thread). If youíre following a certain set of rules then one way or another they can be automated. If you are trading on ďgut instinctĒ or emotion then I guess that canít be automated but that doesnít seem the right way to go... Either way you just need to figure out what youíre trying to do and do it.

The other HUGE benefit of automation is that you can empirically back test and prove the concept over a long period of time which you just canít do with discretionary trading. That actually helps you get through drawdowns (which youíll inevitably get with automated strategies as well) as youíll feel confident itís probably a short term blip (obviously always subject to your ďsystem stop lossĒ that you must have in place from the beginning). Itís just a much easier way to do things than being glued to your screen all day trying to see trades that a computer can do on its own with a little bit of effort on your part. In the old days they didnt have this luxury but now pretty much anyone with a computer can do it (and much more besides). Some pretty heartbreaking stories on here (and mine hurt a hell of a lot too) but you have to get the right advice to avoid repeating the same mistakes. Good luck

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  #111 (permalink)
billmcg
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Some time ago I was a student pilot, I was able to solo and fly alone. One day I took of and was at about 3000Ft. I have my own construction business, new wife, baby, income property, relationships. I was thinking about all this stuff. The next thing I knew, I had lost 1500 feet of altitude in seconds, I was disorientated. ( Short a long market !!). Couldn't pull it together. Humans have no sense of direction. I was confused and in big trouble. I radioed for help and got the plane down quickly.
I HAD LOST FOCUS. I was not aware of what I was supposed to be doing. The traders we retail traders compete with have classes on awareness, focus and managing the emotions. We learn by the seats of our pants. If one is obsessed with anything else (drinking, drugs, business ,job relationship). You will loose. You must be centered emotionally and spiritually to focus on trading. Good luck. Get up and fight. FOCUS OR DO NOT ENTER.

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  #112 (permalink)
redbarntrades
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billmcg View Post
Some time ago I was a student pilot, I was able to solo and fly alone. One day I took of and was at about 3000Ft. I have my own construction business, new wife, baby, income property, relationships. I was thinking about all this stuff. The next thing I knew, I had lost 1500 feet of altitude in seconds, I was disorientated. ( Short a long market !!). Couldn't pull it together. Humans have no sense of direction. I was confused and in big trouble. I radioed for help and got the plane down quickly.
I HAD LOST FOCUS. I was not aware of what I was supposed to be doing. The traders we retail traders compete with have classes on awareness, focus and managing the emotions. We learn by the seats of our pants. If one is obsessed with anything else (drinking, drugs, business ,job relationship). You will loose. You must be centered emotionally and spiritually to focus on trading. Good luck. Get up and fight. FOCUS OR DO NOT ENTER.

Great comment! Ever since being a kid in grade school, I now know that I've always been a little on the ADD side. So how do I keep my focus? My trades last only 1-5 minutes max. I can keep a focus that long.

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  #113 (permalink)
CyclingFunds
Coachella Valley, CA USA
 
 
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blew View Post
First off, I can't thank you all enough for the support! It's absolutely insane to see all the replies and love, 8+ pages of it. I have read every single reply and taken perspective and wisdom from each one of them. It would take a long time to go through and respond to each and every person, just know I did read every reply.

I had a solid night of sleep and spent the day with my family. I have finally came down from the emotional state some, enough to think straight.

One question I am seeing a lot is about my strategy. I don't think it failed me. I failed myself. I ran most of the cash up from scalping options (TSLA and SPY usually 0-3DTE), and scalping securities (AAPL mostly, and then whatever else was having lots of volume/gapping on the day). I switched to futures for a bit here at the end before the blowup, and was having good success there (ES and RTY), and I feel like futures are perfect for me. For some reason I just decided to go back to what I was used to for a bit, probably out of habit and it's where a majority of my success was from. My strategy seems to work even better on futures, so I think I will be trading them exclusively when I get back on the horse Monday. My strategy is actually super simple, regardless if its options, shares, futures, etc. I trade support and resistance levels and I trade with the trend always. I don't trade breakouts or pure momentum or anything. I prefer a drop or breakout to happen, then wait as new floors and ceilings are formed, and I take those trades instead. I like trading inside channels of consolidation that have a wide range, the wider the better. Example, once I see a ceiling being retested, and if the trend is down, I will short once it retests that ceiling expecting it to fail because the major trend is down. Take my profit at the floor, leave a runner incase it breaks a floor. The stop loss is some what tight with minimal risk, because if it breaks out it did the opposite of what I wanted and the stop loss is set far enough out so it can breathe upon a fake out, but will stop out if it runs hard. Same for going long. I buy in at a clear floor, and take my profits at the ceiling, usually leaving a runner if it does breakout of the channel. I don't use any indicators at all, and instead just identify highs and lows and support/resistance levels myself. Its insane when you draw these yourself how much the market will follow these trends to the exact tick sometimes. I very rarely short if the trend is overall up, and I very rarely go long if the trend is down. Indicators made me lose money most of the time (not as much as my emotional trading though heh ). Not sure if its because I was too focused on them or what, but I quickly realized I was doing way way way better without them.

My biggest day ever was around 15k, a TSLA scalp turned into an all day hold as it just kept running. My biggest loss in a day before the blowup was like 3.5k, and I felt sick to my stomach for days. My account was only like 35kish at that time probably. I made it back quick enough though. One thing I noticed was as my account just kept getting larger, those losses I was getting sick over began to feel like nothing. I wish I still got sick to my stomach over those losses and realized the severity of what it was leading to. I think I normalized these large losses in a way because I felt justified by the large balance I ran up. It was pure cockiness. When I was raging I didn't follow my plan at all obviously. Not in any sense at all. I was over trading, and I even added to losing positions, something I never do and is in my checklists to never do ever. I should've knew right then and there when I broke that rule to stop, but I knew while I was doing it I needed to stop. I just can't believe how out of hand it got and how the spiral blew up my account so quickly. It makes me realize how dangerous emotion is. I was in trades with my heart pumping, my blood rushing and rage in my body. A sim can never recreate this situation for me because the emotion I experienced wouldn't have happened. No panic or revenge trading because I would've simply edited the account balance if I ran out. Emotion can't be represented in a sim, and it's directly what led to my demise. Sim is great for testing strategies and such I think, but I don't know that it will help my situation a whole lot (unless my strategy clearly falls apart entirely).

My major takeaways for now:

1. Set a loss limit on my account. This will straight up prevent me from blowing up, even if I get extremely emotional again.
2. Take half of my profits at the end of the day. I will begin doing this once I get my account back to around 30k.
3. Work on controlling my emotions better, even though #1 helps massively with this and lets me be human still.


I wish I would have followed #2 earlier and blew 30k instead of 60k. But I am taking this as a massive learning experience. I need to get back in the mindset of where I was at 10k. My mindset then was 1% a day, and it got me to where I was. I know some replies here are saying it's unachievable, but honestly with small account sizes (under ~1mil), I really think it's not that far fetched. Hell I was doing it, so I know it's not crazy talk. Yes my style technically involves using leverage (not using margin, but options is technically leverage), but I don't feel that leverage is what killed me at all. Me being extremely emotional and not sticking super tight to the plan is what killed me. I won't give up leverage because it's apart of my style, and how I got anywhere in the first place. So while leverage led to my demise in a certain sense, it's not the thing I feel blew up the account.

Thanks again for all the replies and support everyone. Monday I will saddle back up and post a journal thread and document my journey of rebuilding. I'll either blow up (again) or glow up (again). I'll try to post everyday. I will be trading strictly futures, as I only have good vibes and experiences with them, plus it'll be a fun new adventure too.

I'm very new to this but had one question that was churning in my mind as I was reading through everything. I'm currently working through some combines and have been pennies away from being funded, actually being able to transfer real cash over, plus had a small personal account that I placed some government stim money in. I blew that cash and am starting over. Nothing major but loss to my current personal income ratio...it definitely stings. Up front I know it's, well most, not real cash yet and just extra "monopoly" money but it still stings me as if I blew real money. I have to fight the "I need this money" side of it because that becomes a cry of desperation and puts me in that revenge mode all the way to the giving up and placing a hail mary trade.

So thank you for your honesty in opening up on this.


That one question i had which you basically answered here was how come you let so much equity sit in there? Based on Futures trading I know you do not need that much cash in hand to cover most of the margins. But, I do see you are trading stocks and although that is not something I trade I understand the margin requirements are different.

Best of luck on your mental reset!!

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  #114 (permalink)
 meandthetrio 
New Orleans, LA
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: Ninjatrader
 
Posts: 5 since Apr 2019
Thanks: 4 given, 1 received

All emotion and psychology aside, if you wouldíve had a daily lock out limit with your broker this wouldnít have happened, period. Make it a percentage

I been blowing up accounts for three years now and just knowing that there is a bottom is such a relief

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  #115 (permalink)
 YogaTrading 
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Dorman Trading
Trading: ES
 
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Not all brokers do that but it definitely a great idea!!!


meandthetrio View Post
All emotion and psychology aside, if you wouldíve had a daily lock out limit with your broker this wouldnít have happened, period. Make it a percentage

I been blowing up accounts for three years now and just knowing that there is a bottom is such a relief


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  #116 (permalink)
three86
Vista, California USA
 
 
Posts: 14 since Aug 2020
Thanks: 1 given, 23 received


blew View Post
I think I normalized these large losses in a way because I felt justified by the large balance I ran up. It was pure cockiness. When I was raging I didn't follow my plan at all obviously. Not in any sense at all. I was over trading, and I even added to losing positions, something I never do and is in my checklists to never do ever. I should've knew right then and there when I broke that rule to stop, but I knew while I was doing it I needed to stop. I just can't believe how out of hand it got and how the spiral blew up my account so quickly. It makes me realize how dangerous emotion is. I was in trades with my heart pumping, my blood rushing and rage in my body. A sim can never recreate this situation for me because the emotion I experienced wouldn't have happened. No panic or revenge trading because I would've simply edited the account balance if I ran out. Emotion can't be represented in a sim, and it's directly what led to my demise. Sim is great for testing strategies and such I think, but I don't know that it will help my situation a whole lot (unless my strategy clearly falls apart entirely).

My major takeaways for now:

1. Set a loss limit on my account. This will straight up prevent me from blowing up, even if I get extremely emotional again.
2. Take half of my profits at the end of the day. I will begin doing this once I get my account back to around 30k.
3. Work on controlling my emotions better, even though #1 helps massively with this and lets me be human still.


I wish I would have followed #2 earlier and blew 30k instead of 60k. But I am taking this as a massive learning experience. I need to get back in the mindset of where I was at 10k.

This is going to keep happening to you over and over and #2 is the reason (the part about once your account is back). You care about your balance and trade different because of it. Your mindset at $10k should be no different than $10 or $10M. You cared about your balance in a drawdown and traded with desperation to just get back to a specific number. Instead of caring about your balance concentrate only on your trade performance.

Don't worry about getting "back" to a specific amount the psychology of that can really mess you up. If you start doing that it should be a red flag to you to stop trading just like the feeling in your stomach on a loss or heart pumping in any trade. If you last long enough eventually you will do these things on instinct. Read "Reminiscences of a Stock Operator" book over and over it will help you identify red flags and talks specifically about this issue while being almost 100 years old.

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  #117 (permalink)
GH0ST 0P
Columbus
 
 
Posts: 3 since Oct 2019
Thanks: 29 given, 5 received

Cleveland, OHIO! I'm in Columbus. Hit me up if you want to chat, seriously.

In 6months I also took $7k to $185k! (I am a GOD), and then blew up 9months later. God I dreaded that talk with the wife.
(ノ◕ヮ◕)ノ*:・゚✧


I was going to share a bunch of advice, but reading through the comments, it looks like one trader or another has said everything I would have said.

With that being the case,



CHEERS!

P.S. Take a break man. I couldn't stop either, so I know you won't listen, but I got so much better when I took a step back and examined what I was doing well, and what areas needed improvement.

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  #118 (permalink)
edoardo
Sydney
 
 
Posts: 1 since Aug 2020
Thanks: 0 given, 1 received

welcome to my world
blew View Post
So I just need to get this off my chest. I just gave away all my gains on the year. I went from 7k -> 70k -> 10k. I blew most of it revenge trading and taking too big of position sizes. I got so comfortable scaling up as I was profiting consistently, and I threw it all away in like 10-15 trades. All the work I put in.. day and night studying all the styles of trading, figuring out what worked for me and what didnít, and I blew it all within a few days by emotionally revenge trading and scaling up higher as the losses got deeper. How could I be so stupid?! Iím still in disbelief I blew an account. I was happy to be one of the ones who didnít blow up an account because I remained disciplined enough to run up basically 1000% in 5 months.

I canít bring myself to tell my spouse. She would be really supportive I know it, but I canít even face myself at the moment, let alone have to explain what happened. Disgusted with myself. Utterly disgusted. I canít believe I let myself get so emotional and out of control. What in the fuck was going through this dense skull of mine?! My confidence is shaken but itís not at the same time. Iím confident that I just made 1000% in 5 months, and Iím also confident I just blew that 1000% in 3 days. So what does that really say about me as a trader... that Iím probably not too good Iím thinking.

The problem is trading is now apart of my identity it feels like. I love it but right now I hate it. Before a 4K swing up or down was no big deal, cause Iím some big shot or some shit I guess. But now 4K would axe me for good damn near. I want to give up but I donít cause I love trading. What can I learn from this? Donít revenge trade. But I knew that. I knew it while I was doing it and I know it now. So why didnít I fucking stop?? I donít know what to do from here.


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  #119 (permalink)
JulioC
HOUSTON
 
 
Posts: 12 since Oct 2020
Thanks: 31 given, 3 received


Sandpaddict View Post
I just bought this book based on the table of contents within a minute.

I can't bring myself to read another new trading book lately. They are usually rehashes or plainly wrong.

Looking only the table of contents I am finally excited to read a new book.

Thank you for your recommendation.

Sent using the futures.io mobile app

I have it, but haven't started to read it.

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  #120 (permalink)
 Aragorn 
Salt Lake City, UT
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: NinjaTrader Brokerage
Trading: ES, 6E
 
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Posts: 297 since Aug 2010
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God you're going to hate me. But it sounds like you need to get back to work. I'm not going to waste your time with a bunch of cute and positive accolades. Live, Learn and move on. What's done is done. You obviously know what you're doing. No one gets lucky in this business.
Now, pick yourself up, put on your Big Boy pants, and enjoy the journey.

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  #121 (permalink)
 martinhunting 
melbourne victoria australia
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: ninjatrader
Broker: FXCM
Trading: AUS200
 
Posts: 120 since Apr 2016
Thanks: 58 given, 134 received

Play Great Defense

Itís very important to get out of bad trades quickly. Always keep in mind that the
market continually presents new opportunities. If you overstay a bad trade, chances
are youíll miss the next good opportunity. Similarly, when a trade is working for
you, donít inflate the potential profits. Donít expect too much from a single trade.
Take your profits while they are ripe on the vineówhen the momentum is still in
your favor.
Everybody has good days in this business. And everybody has bad days, too. By
thinking defensively all the time, you can limit the damage done on bad days. When
you handle bad days well, you are on your way to becoming a good trader

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  #122 (permalink)
 Sandpaddict 
Langley
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninjatrader
Broker: IB
Trading: Futures
 
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JulioC View Post
I have it, but haven't started to read it.

I'm already into it and it IS head and shoulders above ANYTHING I've ever read on the subject of the psychology of trading.

Blow... you need to read this book. You WILL fall back into the same traps it's only a matter of time. Same with the rest us.

I know this book is going to be a classic and I'm not even half way though it!

Sent using the futures.io mobile app

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  #123 (permalink)
 MarvTrader 
Allen TX USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Tradestation
Trading: Emini ES
 
Posts: 3 since Feb 2018
Thanks: 5 given, 1 received

The book The Risk of Trading by Michael Toma has been a godsend for me. My number one KPI is trade compliance which includes my Risk level. I wish you well on your journey back to the top. I have no doubts.

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  #124 (permalink)
 madhuram 
Vadodara + Gujarat/India
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader 8
Broker: E-Signal - TrueData
Trading: Crude Oil, NIFTY, BANKNIFTY
 
Posts: 6 since Jul 2018
Thanks: 6 given, 34 received

Hey and i know the feeling. I hope this video message helps you:




Cheers

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  #125 (permalink)
Riccca
Venice Italy
 
 
Posts: 1 since Apr 2020
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I don't use forums but I feel I have to give you my idea. I think that's a problem of all "scaling in" trader, but near it, there is more about personality than other. I have your same problem.
That's what I'm trying to do. More simple to say than to do but it could be a start.
So rules I'm trying to respect are:
-Learn to plan a maximum number of operations per day. Three, four, or five...... but decide it before trading.
-Second don't "scale in" in general.
-Third and surely the most important: work to accept defeats in general. You have for sure a personality that You don't want to lose never.
You must accept there are some days in a year that You don't feel the market. Stop there, accept a losing day but a loss of an amount you have decided before (number of operations per day and consequently the amount via stops). When you have done your number of operations per day let's try, day after day, to close the platform, close the pc, and go outside. Stop trading for the day. If the day before you had a loss never modify the number of operations per day, stops, size, etc to recover the loss of the day before. Try it. It's very hard and boring I know. But it could be very helpful.
I hope that helps you to continue an activity that you love.

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  #126 (permalink)
 adenis 
montreal + Canada
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Investor RT + IB
Trading: Futures and Stocks
 
Posts: 2 since Feb 2016
Thanks: 0 given, 5 received


blew View Post
So I just need to get this off my chest. I just gave away all my gains on the year. I went from 7k -> 70k -> 10k. I blew most of it revenge trading and taking too big of position sizes. I got so comfortable scaling up as I was profiting consistently, and I threw it all away in like 10-15 trades. All the work I put in.. day and night studying all the styles of trading, figuring out what worked for me and what didnít, and I blew it all within a few days by emotionally revenge trading and scaling up higher as the losses got deeper. How could I be so stupid?! Iím still in disbelief I blew an account. I was happy to be one of the ones who didnít blow up an account because I remained disciplined enough to run up basically 1000% in 5 months.

I canít bring myself to tell my spouse. She would be really supportive I know it, but I canít even face myself at the moment, let alone have to explain what happened. Disgusted with myself. Utterly disgusted. I canít believe I let myself get so emotional and out of control. What in the fuck was going through this dense skull of mine?! My confidence is shaken but itís not at the same time. Iím confident that I just made 1000% in 5 months, and Iím also confident I just blew that 1000% in 3 days. So what does that really say about me as a trader... that Iím probably not too good Iím thinking.

The problem is trading is now apart of my identity it feels like. I love it but right now I hate it. Before a 4K swing up or down was no big deal, cause Iím some big shot or some shit I guess. But now 4K would axe me for good damn near. I want to give up but I donít cause I love trading. What can I learn from this? Donít revenge trade. But I knew that. I knew it while I was doing it and I know it now. So why didnít I fucking stop?? I donít know what to do from here.


Been there, done that....4 times. It took me that many times to learn that overconfidence combined with leverage is the best combo to blow up an account. I have learned to be more humble and not try to rationalize every move in the market. My advice is to start over again but go very small. Another lesson I learned: not making money is better than losing money. So, that means that you have to wait for the big fat pitch to come your way before hitting. It may means not putting on a trade for days at a time. It's okay. The market will give you at least one such opportunity per week. Gains will come by and your confidence will go up. Only then you can scale up but never, never, never put on positions where you can lose more than 1% to 2% per trade. I am an expert in revenge trading . I dealt with it by putting on stops and loss limits for the day. Hope that helps. Good luck. You built up your account once, you can do it again.

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  #127 (permalink)
 santino 
barcelona (Spain)
 
Experience: None
Platform: ninja.....
Trading: ES,
 
Posts: 23 since Jul 2010
Thanks: 31 given, 10 received

Hello, I fully understand how you feel. The problem, from my point of view, is of oneself; It has to do with a part of us that we do not control that leads us to repeat and repeat an act that in trading is destructive. Perhaps understanding well that perfection is not human and that mistakes are part of our nature can alleviate your desire to want to be perfect. Turning off the computer and going for a walk when the market is beating you is very difficult, I know, but it is the habit that works best to prevent it from happening again. The compulsion to repeat will not stop in the future but if you manage to turn off the computer (which is not easy) you will have taken a giant step as a trader.
regards

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  #128 (permalink)
ProUKTrader
London, UK
 
 
Posts: 4 since Aug 2018
Thanks: 0 given, 10 received

Hey mate -

Don't worry you are in good company. The stories remain the same, only the characters change. Many a man has done this including me. I went from 50k to from 800k to zero I can laugh about it now!

You have 2 options initially
1) cry and run away
2) look at the positives how you got your account up in the first place, analyse where it started going wrong and make changes

I took option 2 in my case. I loved trading, but was wildly swinging with huge ups and downs. Now I find trading boring, because thank God im consistantly making money. So what changed for me?

1) I knew i was talented but I had no risk management
2) It took me many years to learn how to risk manage
3) risk management, in my opinion, is 90% of being successful in trading
4) You can only control what you lose, not what you gain

You can and will make a success of trading but take time to

1) educate yourself with quality posts on this website
2) take the time to read trading books
3) Work to a trading style that suits you
4) have a robust and solid risk management plan - know how much you will risk per trade etc.

Best of luck mate - you can make a comeback. But be postive, and first things first - you need to MASTER how to manage your risk. Making money is pretty easy after that.




blew View Post
So I just need to get this off my chest. I just gave away all my gains on the year. I went from 7k -> 70k -> 10k. I blew most of it revenge trading and taking too big of position sizes. I got so comfortable scaling up as I was profiting consistently, and I threw it all away in like 10-15 trades. All the work I put in.. day and night studying all the styles of trading, figuring out what worked for me and what didnít, and I blew it all within a few days by emotionally revenge trading and scaling up higher as the losses got deeper. How could I be so stupid?! Iím still in disbelief I blew an account. I was happy to be one of the ones who didnít blow up an account because I remained disciplined enough to run up basically 1000% in 5 months.

I canít bring myself to tell my spouse. She would be really supportive I know it, but I canít even face myself at the moment, let alone have to explain what happened. Disgusted with myself. Utterly disgusted. I canít believe I let myself get so emotional and out of control. What in the fuck was going through this dense skull of mine?! My confidence is shaken but itís not at the same time. Iím confident that I just made 1000% in 5 months, and Iím also confident I just blew that 1000% in 3 days. So what does that really say about me as a trader... that Iím probably not too good Iím thinking.

The problem is trading is now apart of my identity it feels like. I love it but right now I hate it. Before a 4K swing up or down was no big deal, cause Iím some big shot or some shit I guess. But now 4K would axe me for good damn near. I want to give up but I donít cause I love trading. What can I learn from this? Donít revenge trade. But I knew that. I knew it while I was doing it and I know it now. So why didnít I fucking stop?? I donít know what to do from here.


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  #129 (permalink)
 vmca2003 
Toronto
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Trading: ES GC NG 6C
 
Posts: 1 since Oct 2017
Thanks: 1 given, 0 received

It's always hard to hear a fellow trader go from a winning state of mind to a losing state of mind, but it happens unfortunately to 80% of the traders out there, including me.
The best advise I can give you, or anyone who has been there and experienced that same feeling of giving up or not believing in yourself is - search out, find and invest in a trading couch who can help your emotional and psychological side of trading - the neglected and most essential part in anyone's trading plan.

So stay the course, just get the tools you need to build your arsenal so you can become a better trader. Trading is a journey as much as it is a destination we all want to get to.

Good luck.

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  #130 (permalink)
 sbogatin 
oldsmar
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: multicharts
Trading: currenies
 
Posts: 6 since Jan 2016
Thanks: 0 given, 37 received

Blew, I just received an email with your post because of a long term follower of the site although I rarely drop in to see what's going on. I am not even sure if this message will be transmitted to you. I know you have received some supportive responses, and that many individuals will be supportive of you, and will empathize with you with words of encouragement. If you want empathy, I'm not your guy. I have been trading for over 40 years, and I'm a retired medical doctor. I can tell that you are frustrated with circumstances, and I can tell that you are an articulate guy. I'm going to assume that your sincere and that you have accurately represented an accurate accounting with poor results, and that this is not a spoof. There are so many things that are wrong with this story if it is true, it is a red flag and you should immediately stop trading... For a multitude of reasons. I am inferring that you trade penny stocks (possibly digital currencies) since you started with a $7000 account. That's a tell that you are an experienced trader and may be under financed. And while this may not be true, and that my assumptions are not correct, everything about taking $7000 account to a $70,000 account and impulsive trading with disaster occurring over a few days... and what I assume is a net gain of $3000 in a very active year of trading means that you could have a part-time job at a Seven-11 and make more money without risking your capital. The vast majority of under capitalized traders, and traders who have no significant level of training will lose money in the markets. My general recommendations are that you find a mentor, and this will cost you at least a few thousand dollars. The problem when you start trading is that you don't know what you don't know, and you don't know what you need. I know that this forum has featured well-known traders as guests. I believe that Al Brooks was a guest a few years ago. He has a very inexpensive video series which will require a tremendous amount of your time, but is generally good. However, it may not be good for you for various reasons. Andrew Menaker is a PhD clinical psychologist who mentors some of the best traders in the United States, but he is not there to teach you the fundamentals of trading. I have had many mentors including Larry Pesavento who is an excellent mentor, but like every other recommendation, he may not be good for you. You sound like a young, smart guy who doesn't understand the first thing about trading, and if you in a serious way are under financed the probability of ROR is high for you. Trading is a business, it requires an education and the help from people who know more than you do. It's ironic to me because you love trading, I don't love trading, but I treat it like a business and I know that I can make money. You spend a lot of time taking risks, and I spent a lot of time avoiding risk. If I see low probability for whatever reason, including my inability to assess probability, I simply walk away from the trade because I know I don't lose money if I don't take a trade that I have no sense of probability working to my favor. My guess is that you have no idea what that means, but you can learn about it if you treat trading like a business. I am reluctant to post my point of view, but if you get this I must've pushed the send button. ( please excuse the Typos )

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  #131 (permalink)
 ranger824 
Long Beach, CA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader, TradeStation
Trading: Futures
 
Posts: 5 since Aug 2012
Thanks: 0 given, 8 received

First, congratulations. What you did is commendable in that few people will ever take an account from $7k to $70k. In contrast, many will take an account from $70k to $10k. It sounds like you have the skills to regroup and take another stab at itóin 3 months or a year or more. Additionally, you are still up 50%, so you are better off than when you started, which a great place to start again. Itís even more difficult to start again with a clear head when you are in the hole.

You asked what happened? In reality, no one can answer your question because we donít know how you made the money. $7k to $70k? Thatís impressive. Have you read Fooled by Randomness? In short, most people lose the money the same way they made the money. They were skilled and lucky and then they were unlucky and foolish.

Iíll pose a couple of ideas and questions:

You Lost Your Mind: From what I gather, you fall into this category. You made decent size profits and took lots of small losses. Then, unfortunately, you lost your mind when things didnít go your way. The market was doing one thing when you made your money. Then, the market stopped doing what it was doing, and you lost your money. Ex. I made the money in a trend. Then I started losing money, and I bet bigger and bigger. Now, I look at the chart, and I see I lost all of the money in a trading range. I kept thinking it was breaking out and it wasnít!!

You were a Plunger: Did you make the money by plunging? If you make the money by plunging, you will certainly lose the money by plunging. Just ask Jesse Livermore.

Question: Were there at least 5-10 times as you made the money that you got in over your head, but each time things turned around? Well, each of those times was a time that you could have started the eventual process of blowing up your account, but each time, LUCK bailed you out.

You asked, ďWhy didnít I stop?Ē By definition, a skilled trader does stop. You either stop or you donít stop. If you donít stop, you are still learning. Did you learn? I assure you, you would have had to learn what you learned eventually. To be clear, you could have just as easily and just as quickly blown up your account at $700k. Better to do it at $70k and learn from the mistake.

Anyone who doesnít know that they can blow up their account will blow up their account. There are stories of people who went to Vegas and won modestly every time for 20 years and then lost everything they owned in a single night.

You asked, ďWhy didnít I stop?Ē It was probably both thrilling and nauseating at the same time. We have to learn to never want to feel like that again. Watch Al Pacino explain it here:


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  #132 (permalink)
 Sandpaddict 
Langley
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninjatrader
Broker: IB
Trading: Futures
 
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sbogatin View Post
Blew, I just received an email with your post because of a long term follower of the site although I rarely drop in to see what's going on. I am not even sure if this message will be transmitted to you. I know you have received some supportive responses, and that many individuals will be supportive of you, and will empathize with you with words of encouragement. If you want empathy, I'm not your guy. I have been trading for over 40 years, and I'm a retired medical doctor. I can tell that you are frustrated with circumstances, and I can tell that you are an articulate guy. I'm going to assume that your sincere and that you have accurately represented an accurate accounting with poor results, and that this is not a spoof. There are so many things that are wrong with this story if it is true, it is a red flag and you should immediately stop trading... For a multitude of reasons. I am inferring that you trade penny stocks (possibly digital currencies) since you started with a $7000 account. That's a tell that you are an experienced trader and may be under financed. And while this may not be true, and that my assumptions are not correct, everything about taking $7000 account to a $70,000 account and impulsive trading with disaster occurring over a few days... and what I assume is a net gain of $3000 in a very active year of trading means that you could have a part-time job at a Seven-11 and make more money without risking your capital. The vast majority of under capitalized traders, and traders who have no significant level of training will lose money in the markets. My general recommendations are that you find a mentor, and this will cost you at least a few thousand dollars. The problem when you start trading is that you don't know what you don't know, and you don't know what you need. I know that this forum has featured well-known traders as guests. I believe that Al Brooks was a guest a few years ago. He has a very inexpensive video series which will require a tremendous amount of your time, but is generally good. However, it may not be good for you for various reasons. Andrew Menaker is a PhD clinical psychologist who mentors some of the best traders in the United States, but he is not there to teach you the fundamentals of trading. I have had many mentors including Larry Pesavento who is an excellent mentor, but like every other recommendation, he may not be good for you. You sound like a young, smart guy who doesn't understand the first thing about trading, and if you in a serious way are under financed the probability of ROR is high for you. Trading is a business, it requires an education and the help from people who know more than you do. It's ironic to me because you love trading, I don't love trading, but I treat it like a business and I know that I can make money. You spend a lot of time taking risks, and I spent a lot of time avoiding risk. If I see low probability for whatever reason, including my inability to assess probability, I simply walk away from the trade because I know I don't lose money if I don't take a trade that I have no sense of probability working to my favor. My guess is that you have no idea what that means, but you can learn about it if you treat trading like a business. I am reluctant to post my point of view, but if you get this I must've pushed the send button. ( please excuse the Typos )


sbogatin View Post
You spend a lot of time taking risks, and I spent a lot of time avoiding risk. If I see low probability for whatever reason, including my inability to assess probability, I simply walk away from the trade because I know I don't lose money if I don't take a trade that I have no sense of probability working to my favor.

I hate to say it but I agree with a sbogatin.

This is fantastic and gets right to the why trading so hard.

"...Including my inability to assess probability, I simply walk away..."

Assessing probably is usually the biggest problem to begin with and knowing what you don't know takes years to figure out.

Its not just the absence of certainty it's the certainty of absence.

Once you know your not certain you can adjust.

Im not sure what you trade either but no one goes from 7k to 70k in that short of time without EXCESSIVE risk.

Just MHO

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  #133 (permalink)
striveforwisdom
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Hi blew,

I guess my first question is what does your system look like (not the methodology - as that would be giving your edge away) but the metrics? What is the win rate? What is the reward to risk ratio? I am asking because I think most blowups occur due to these metrics being forgotten, not having/sticking to your system, and not following the general rules fo successful trading that curb against your human nature - greed, fear, impulse, and revenge.

I think this because of my own experience blowing up an account. I blew up an account because I had a high win rate system that had a relatively bad reward to risk ratio for myself. Sometimes I would have a 1:1 reward to risk ratio and sometimes a .75:1. The reason I am bringing this up is because I think high win rate systems, at least for me, are detrimental for most people in the long-haul. Eventually there will be a day like you described. Where your emotions are uncontrolled and you have a bad day. In response to this 'bad day' some people, because they are so used to 'winning' from their high win rate systems will take this personally and start the following: revenge trading, taking more size than normal to recoup losses, creating more losses, then they are taking more impulsive bad trades resulting in them decimating an account. This happened to me.

From your post, it seems like you had a winning system for a short amount of time, were used to winning, and then had a bad day that got the best of you. My advice would be to go back to the drawing board. Reflect, analyze the experience, and redraw a new system that you will have to test with experience. Also, read on this forum, books, and/or ask people what rules they have in place to help them block against their destructive human nature - impulse, greed, fear, and revenge.

After my blowup, I realized a high win rate system with a low reward to risk strategy requires so much work/stress day-to-day and keeps me from inviting risk. Risk is great as long as you manage it, like what most others are saying on this post.

My current system has roughly a 50% win rate. I lose around 50% of the time, but I lose 2-3 times LESS than my profits. I only trade NQ. If my bearish conditions for NQ are met, I trade short and my system tends to get a reward to risk ratio of 3:1. If my bullish conditions for NQ are met, I go long and my system tends to have a reward to risk ratio of 2:1. So, I take great advantage of bearish conditions and a good red day. I am more cautious in bullish conditions because I know that I, myself, and my system are more profitable in/from bearish conditions and nice red days.

I illustrated some aspects of my current system above because, from my own experience, account blowups while initially unpleasant can be great. My blowup made me realize I was a shit trader without a clear system. I also didn't have rules in place to guard me against myself. Pre-blowup I was also way TOO risk adverse - which I personally think is a terrible way to go about trading. I believe it is essential to manage risk but to also not be afraid of it.

Another key lesson I have learned is that learning how to be comfortable losing is one of the key skills a trader must acquire and this is MUCH easier said than done. This is has been the hardest lesson for me and many other people. Get used to it and know that losing trades, with well defined and managed risk, are GREAT trades. Just because you take a loss doesn't mean it is a bad trade. Our human nature wants to trick us into thinking that a loss is BAD and a win is GOOD and, in my humble opinion, high win rate systems can easily push someone into this box of thinking.

Growing an account from 7k to 70k is commendable mate. Remind yourself that you can trade and do this. Just keep those emotions in check, take a break, and go back to the drawing board. Im telling you, you won't regret reflecting on this experience. Journal down what went wrong. Journal down what went right when you took your account from 7k to 70k.

Ask yourself: Is the system I am currently running really sustainable? Do I have rules to curb against my own human nature? Am I treating the market like an annuity - causing me to trade every day when there isn't necessarily good opportunities? I feel like these general questions, with honest answers about yourself, can really tell you a lot about yourself as a trader. Then, with this information, go to the drawing board and try something more concrete.

Above all, account blowups are a learning experience and usually, for the people that stick around and put in the effort, are a necessary step to make them the best trader they can be.

Cheers!

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  #134 (permalink)
feinbern
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Sandpaddict View Post
I hate to say it but I agree with a sbogatin.

This is fantastic and gets right to the why trading so hard.

"...Including my inability to assess probability, I simply walk away..."

Assessing probably is usually the biggest problem to begin with and knowing what you don't know takes years to figure out.

Its not just the absence of certainty it's the certainty of absence.

Once you know your not certain you can adjust.

Im not sure what you trade either but no one goes from 7k to 70k in that short of time without EXCESSIVE risk.

Just MHO

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I think this is right and is without a doubt what I got wrong when I started trading. Unfortunately, when you start out you tend to look at trading like a "job" or a "paycheck" like somehow you can extract a certain amount of money every day/week/month by doing certain things (probably because most people had real jobs before they started ). I just dont think that's true. Trading is a very opportunistic thing and you kind of need to know what you are looking for before you do it. One of the main ways to do this is have someone show you but I get that its not always easy to do if you're trading from home/by yourself etc (I struggled with it too). Even using a forum is tough to replicate that as you dont really build those interpersonal relationships though I guess it can help. The point is that most of the time your instincts are wrong when you start out. You're taking trades and you dont really know why. Risking capital for no reason because every trade seems "pretty good" and that's exactly the problem. Every trade that you take that seems "pretty good" means that you dont have the probabilities in your favor. All you're thinking about is what you might win if it "goes right". As the guys above say, you need to know the probabilities first and if they dont make sense, then you walk. This is often very hard to do and why I say its good to have a guy sitting next to you to say "nahhh" most of the time I set myself up in a co-working space and was lucky enough to have someone with experience sit near me to tell me just that when I ran things by him. Its frustrating when someone says "nahhh" but most of the time you'll find out they're right. In the end, you'll only take the highest probability trades with the lowest risk which dont come around very often (I also tend to use options for this as its much easier to get this result ie asymmetric risk reward where you've got very little on the line for an outsize reward). Its pretty boring trading this way but unfortunately the only way (IMO) to make money...

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  #135 (permalink)
goodoboy
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sbogatin View Post
If I see low probability for whatever reason, including my inability to assess probability, I simply walk away from the trade because I know I don't lose money if I don't take a trade that I have no sense of probability working to my favor. My guess is that you have no idea what that means, but you can learn about it if you treat trading like a business. I am reluctant to post my point of view, but if you get this I must've pushed the send button. ( please excuse the Typos )


Lovely stated sbogatin,

How do you mental deal with seeking high probability trades when high probability trades require more risk?

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  #136 (permalink)
 SLMacKellar 
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I think one thing that goes unremarked too often is that day trading is very mentally demanding.

Seems to me that revenge trading is partially anger but also an exhaustion of the control you need to brush the anger off, or the control to properly analyse trades. Maybe working on that would help. Maybe you need a week off after working for x number of weeks? Recharge, rest your brain. Build back the control you need. I think there may be science behind this, that control (willpower for instance) is a limited rescource in the brain and needs to be recharged.

This is something I am working on right now.

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peesqueezy
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SLMacKellar View Post
I think one thing that goes unremarked too often is that day trading is very mentally demanding.

This is something a lot of people don't realize, even WHILE losing $. It doesn't even have to be a "revenge" trading scenario or 'tilt', but even just boredom or trying to force trades, or trading past when you should stop. I think having spreadsheets and trade analysis software helps a lot with this, if you can see after 11amEST you have a negative EV from your trades, at least you can now easily see this feedback.

That was one of a few things that helped bigly in my trading results.

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  #138 (permalink)
 martinhunting 
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Hi
here is a book that you may wish to read Dick Diamond has been a successful trader and the book is very practical and shows how he traded 40 years of trading insights
Untitled

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  #139 (permalink)
 JBWTrader 
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so guys 14 pages later and blew blew through...what now ?

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 AllSeeker 
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JBWTrader View Post
so guys 14 pages later and blew blew through...what now ?

Similar threads appear in good frequency and their creator "usually" follows the same pattern. Its fairly routine.

We take a sip of our favorite beverage and get on with our own lives, I guess?

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 Sandpaddict 
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SLMacKellar View Post
I think one thing that goes unremarked too often is that day trading is very mentally demanding.

Seems to me that revenge trading is partially anger but also an exhaustion of the control you need to brush the anger off, or the control to properly analyse trades. Maybe working on that would help. Maybe you need a week off after working for x number of weeks? Recharge, rest your brain. Build back the control you need. I think there may be science behind this, that control (willpower for instance) is a limited rescource in the brain and needs to be recharged.

This is something I am working on right now.

Hello SLMacKellar.

Will power has truly been proven to be limited. It also been proven that people have different varying degrees to begin with.

Having said that I'm reading a ground breaking book I can't believe know ones writen before.

Zero charts. It's about psychology. But it lays the foundation for a STRATEGY to tackle these psychological issues head on.

And I mean that. It lays out an ACTIONABLE strategy to deal with the CORE of your trading issues... emotions and decision making!

No fluff. Completely relevant. The descriptions of emotional states, feelings, and thoughts are like no other book on trading anywhere. Period.

Jack Schwagers books used to be my favorites. Not anymore

Mark Douglas... ya he's good...

Brett Steinberger... yeup good too.

But...

If I had to recommend ONE book to ANY trader... novice, struggling, or experienced, this would be the book.

https://www.amazon.com/Mental-Game-Trading-Confidence-Discipline-ebook/dp/B09253NDBB

Please for the love of God anybody struggling or thinking the market isn't fair or just need to get to the next level.... READ THIS BOOK!

If anyone wants the true HOLY GRAIL!

The GRAIL OF ALL GRAILS!

THE ONE GRAIL TO RULE THEM ALL...

(all joking aside) It's the mastery of ONESELF. That's the ONLY holy grail.

YOU are the trader. YOU make the decisions to get in or out. Hence YOU are the soul responsiture of your trading outcome. Full stop. No blame. No misunderstanding. It's your fault.

How would you like to trade without guilt? Without remorse. Without anger, sadness or worse depression?

You can and how you do it? By knowing when your body is sending you signals that something is wrong or needs attention.

Thats what we call stress. Chemicals such as adrenaline and cortisol start floating around in our brians literally causing us to feel stress.

It's our bodys way of signaling us something dangerous could be near and need to focused attention and remove anything from attention thats not necessary.

Primal mode. Terrible state to trade in. Almost guaranteed to do the wrong thing to protect yourself.

How do we harness this power...

Im telling ya...

https://www.amazon.com/Mental-Game-Trading-Confidence-Discipline-ebook/dp/B09253NDBB

Just go there and just read the table of contents. Or find a sample chapter. If you know whats good for you (or don't) you will understand and read.

Normally this is where I say this is just MHO. F-that. Go read this book! IT WILL change you.



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  #142 (permalink)
goodoboy
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Sandpaddict View Post
Hello SLMacKellar.

Will power has truly been proven to be limited. It also been proven that people have different varying degrees to begin with.

Having said that I'm reading a ground breaking book I can't believe know ones writen before.

Zero charts. It's about psychology. But it lays the foundation for a STRATEGY to tackle these psychological issues head on.

And i mean that. It lays out an ACTIONABLE strategy to deal with the CORE of your trading issues... emotions and decision making!

No fluff. Completely relevant. The descriptions of emotional states, feelings, and thoughts are like no other book on trading anywhere. Period.

Jack Schwagers books used to be my favorites. Not anymore

Mark Douglas... ya he's good...

Brett Steinberger... yeup good too.

But...

If I had to recommend ONE book to ANY trader... novice, struggling, or experienced, this would be the book.

https://www.amazon.com/Mental-Game-Trading-Confidence-Discipline-ebook/dp/B09253NDBB

Please for the love of God anybody struggling or thinking the market isn't fair or just need to get to the next level.... READ THIS BOOK!

If anyone wants the true HOLY GRAIL!

The GRAIL OF ALL GRAILS!

THE ONE GRAIL TO RULE THEM ALL...

(all joking aside) It's the mastery of ONESELF. That's the ONLY holy grail.

YOU are the trader. YOU make the decisions to get in or out. Hence YOU are the soul responsiture of your trading outcome. Full stop. No blame. No misunderstanding. It's your fault.

How would you like to trade without guilt? Without remorse. Without anger, sadness or worse depression?

You can and how you do it? By knowing when your body is sending you signals that something is wrong or needs attention.

Thats what we call stress. Chemicals such as adrenaline and cortisol start floating around in our brians literally causing us to feel stress.

It's our bodys way of signaling us something dangerous could be near and need to focused attention and remove anything from attention thats not necessary.

Primal mode. Terrible state to trade in. Almost guaranteed to do the wrong thing to protect yourself.

How do we harness this power...

Im telling ya...

https://www.amazon.com/Mental-Game-Trading-Confidence-Discipline-ebook/dp/B09253NDBB

Just go there and just read the table of contents. Or find a sample chapter. If you know whats hood for you you will understand and read.

Normally this is where I say thisbis just MHO. F-that. Go read this book. IT WILL change you.



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Does this book offer trading Edges to make money consistently?

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  #143 (permalink)
 Sandpaddict 
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LastDino View Post
Similar threads appear in good frequency and their creator "usually" follows the same pattern. Its fairly routine.

We take a sip of our favorite beverage and get on with our own lives, I guess?

Couldn't agree more.

13 pages of unbelievable advice. Im sure not much will change.

We tend to "see" information that fits with what we believe and without realizing "filter"out the rest.

He's only going to be able to see and change what he's READY to see and change. Unfortunately.

But I hope not



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  #144 (permalink)
 Sandpaddict 
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goodoboy View Post
JBWTrader,

LOL, that is the because blew who started the forum thread is not real. It is called trading marketing to capture the attention of eyes for ad clicks and self promotion.

Keep in mind, blew never posted any broker accounts or trading records to prove he his losses and wins.

My input, unless you showing broker accounts or trading records, you lying and guessing.

Although I never thought of that it would be interesting to hear what he had to say.

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  #145 (permalink)
 Sandpaddict 
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goodoboy View Post
Does this book offer trading Edges to make money consistently?

Yes. The most powerful one in the universe.

The one between your ears!

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  #146 (permalink)
 Anagami 
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blew View Post
So I just need to get this off my chest. I just gave away all my gains on the year. I went from 7k -> 70k -> 10k. I blew most of it revenge trading and taking too big of position sizes. I got so comfortable scaling up as I was profiting consistently, and I threw it all away in like 10-15 trades. All the work I put in.. day and night studying all the styles of trading, figuring out what worked for me and what didnít, and I blew it all within a few days by emotionally revenge trading and scaling up higher as the losses got deeper. How could I be so stupid?! Iím still in disbelief I blew an account. I was happy to be one of the ones who didnít blow up an account because I remained disciplined enough to run up basically 1000% in 5 months.

I canít bring myself to tell my spouse. She would be really supportive I know it, but I canít even face myself at the moment, let alone have to explain what happened. Disgusted with myself. Utterly disgusted. I canít believe I let myself get so emotional and out of control. What in the fuck was going through this dense skull of mine?! My confidence is shaken but itís not at the same time. Iím confident that I just made 1000% in 5 months, and Iím also confident I just blew that 1000% in 3 days. So what does that really say about me as a trader... that Iím probably not too good Iím thinking.

The problem is trading is now apart of my identity it feels like. I love it but right now I hate it. Before a 4K swing up or down was no big deal, cause Iím some big shot or some shit I guess. But now 4K would axe me for good damn near. I want to give up but I donít cause I love trading. What can I learn from this? Donít revenge trade. But I knew that. I knew it while I was doing it and I know it now. So why didnít I fucking stop?? I donít know what to do from here.

Hello brother, I feel your pain (most of us have been around this block once or twice).

Never forget that EVERYTHING is an opportunity to grow, to become a better trader, to evolve into the BEST version of YOU.

Ask: "How does this serve me AS IT IS?" Make a list. Reap the benefits of this setback (or it's wasted). Make INNER changes, and then come back and CRUSH IT.

Metta,
Anagami

"The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven." - Milton
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  #147 (permalink)
 Sandpaddict 
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goodoboy View Post
Sandpaddict,

Never ever forget the end goal of trading....to make money consistently with better return to risk than the SP500 index return to risk.

The only way you know if a trader is not blowing smoke, is broker records and track records. Everything else someone has to say is completely a lie and guessing.

No Proof = Lying.

Well as much as I agree I think it's a little more nuanced than that.

First off. The S&P is the benchmark. Why would you want to put the risk and effort in if you can't beat the benchmark? You'd be better off parking your money in the index.

So if you can get a better return than the index, not always but usually it's at the expense of the extra risk.

So one risk doesn't correlate to the other.

And Secondly Van Tharp in my mind is one of the greatest trading teachers in history and he doesnt even trade!

So yes and no. Nothings really that black and white.

Although you could be %100 in this situation. I don't know.

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  #148 (permalink)
goodoboy
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Sandpaddict View Post
Well as much as I agree I think it's a little more nuanced than that.

First off. The S&P is the benchmark. Why would you want to put the risk and effort in if you can't beat the benchmark? You'd be better off parking your money in the index.

So if you can get a better return than the index, not always but usually it's at the expense of the extra risk.

This is correct.

Even if a trader can get 10% return per year, then they need at least $1M to get about $100K to make decent money per year.

And that is the problem right there, nobody thinks about the end goal of what they are doing.

If a trader start trading with $10K account, first thing to write down as a goal : for the next 3 years I better beat the SP500 index returns. If I do not, QUIT and find another business to invest time and energy into.

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 Sandpaddict 
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goodoboy View Post
This is correct.

Even if a trader can get 10% return per year, then they need at least $1M to get about $100K to make decent money per year.

And that is the problem right there, nobody thinks about the end goal of what they are doing.

If a trader start trading with $10K account, first thing to write down as a goal : for the next 3 years I better beat the SP500 index returns. If I do not, QUIT and find another business to invest time and energy into.

Thats actually fantastic advice!

The problem is we don't listen. Lol. I'm just starting to make money somewhat consistently now after 6 years! Some take over a decade! And some sadly never make it to profitability let alone beat the S&P as a benchmark.

And I'm YEARS away from breaking even on what I've lost let alone what I've paid in courses, books and most importantly time I could have spent better elsewhere.

Yet I couldn't trade it for the world. We are weird creatures us humans.

Cheers

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feinbern
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Sandpaddict View Post
Thats actually fantastic advice!

The problem is we don't listen. Lol. I'm just starting to make money somewhat consistently now after 6 years! Some take over a decade! And some sadly never make it to profitability let alone beat the S&P as a benchmark.

And I'm YEARS away from breaking even on what I've lost let alone what I've paid in courses, books and most importantly time I could have spent better elsewhere.

Yet I couldn't trade it for the world. We are weird creatures us humans.

Cheers

Joseph

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I have to say that I dont really agree with this whole idea that "you'd better beat the S&P or go find something else" and that somehow if you eke out a few points over the S&P then you're a successful trader. Kind of a trite comparison (with all due respect to goodoboy). Of course people in the industry (ie who actually work on wall street for big institutions etc) will benchmark themselves this way as their organisations are likely managing huge portfolios where a small tweak may result in millions/billions of rotation but you and me are not in this situation. My view is that if you cannot significantly beat that benchmark trading independently (ie without the limitations attached to trading/investing huge portfolios) then you should probably try something else. On an average year trading independently you should probably be making more than 10 points on your money or else you'd need a hell of a lot of money to get by (goodoboy gave the example of having a million dollar portfolio to generate 100k per year - not many people will have that amount of capital at least to start off with). I guess my point is here that someone who knows how to use options effectively can likely generate more than 10 points per year on his/her margin (clearly not possible for an institution prohibited from investing in illiquid securities or options unless for hedging purposes). Anyway I'll leave that one to the experts...

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  #151 (permalink)
 Sandpaddict 
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feinbern View Post
I have to say that I dont really agree with this whole idea that "you'd better beat the S&P or go find something else" and that somehow if you eke out a few points over the S&P then you're a successful trader. Kind of a trite comparison (with all due respect to goodoboy). Of course people in the industry (ie who actually work on wall street for big institutions etc) will benchmark themselves this way as their organisations are likely managing huge portfolios where a small tweak may result in millions/billions of rotation but you and me are not in this situation. My view is that if you cannot significantly beat that benchmark trading independently (ie without the limitations attached to trading/investing huge portfolios) then you should probably try something else. On an average year trading independently you should probably be making more than 10 points on your money or else you'd need a hell of a lot of money to get by (goodoboy gave the example of having a million dollar portfolio to generate 100k per year - not many people will have that amount of capital at least to start off with). I guess my point is here that someone who knows how to use options effectively can likely generate more than 10 points per year on his/her margin (clearly not possible for an institution prohibited from investing in illiquid securities or options unless for hedging purposes). Anyway I'll leave that one to the experts...

Yeup. Great points.

It's true that these are apples and oranges comparisons.

We as retail traders don't benchmark ourselves against the indexes (although we should know what kind of average vs just holding an index or cash for that matter we are achieving)

The institutional world IS based on the benchmarks such as the S&P or Bonds or different asset classes and/or hedges against inflation.

These are again not even comparable.

They work on the portfolio level and asset allocation can have as much of an impact or more than the individual securities they invest in.

They are looking for a return comensurate with the risk to achieve a desired return.

We are NOT talking only about returns we are talking RISK ADJUSTED RETURNS and the return they can achieve with the smallest amount of risk to the portfolio to again achieve a certain level of return.

Lastly %10 a year on your money is a weird way to say this as it's usually an average. Some years are better some are worse.

Now there are alot of blanket statements and generalizations in there but I think the point was made.

And if course the goal we all want is great RISK ADJUSTED RETURNS. At least as retail traders we have agility on our side!

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  #152 (permalink)
gainzborough
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Saw this thread pop up in my emails the other day. Really didn't want to reply, but thought very long and hard about it, and finally.... I realised I do want to say something.

I have been trading for 13 years.

All I can tell you is the money isn't even the tip of the iceberg. In fact it doesn't really matter at all. The structure of the things you wrote, the things you said and the way you said them tells me where you are in your journey - you have a very long hard road ahead of you, and I think taking some time to reflect on it would be a good use of your time.

You're at a fork right now and if you truly want trading to be your path then I can only tell you that it will cost you more than money. Much much more.

In many ways you're lucky because it's not too late to seal it off and go do something else instead.

Only you can decide.

Couple of truisms I've picked up along the way that I can offer you:

1. No one gives a shit when you lose money and no one applauds when you win. (Human beings don't like that much, we aren't programmed for it)

2. Whatever you are not changing, you are choosing. (Read that again)

I wish you well.

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  #153 (permalink)
redbarntrades
Kalispell=Mt./USA
 
 
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So many great posts on this topic.

Instead of comments from me, I will post a video from F.I.O contributor Lancelottrader aka Stranahan Trading.

I just came across this one today as I have been watching with interest his thread "The Crude Dude Oil Trading System". He has now switched over to the NQ.

Anyway, this is his first recorded video. It is excellent and he shared his own struggles and how he fixed them.

It's called "How I overcame my trading mistakes".


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  #154 (permalink)
 bobwest 
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goodoboy View Post
LOL, that is the because blew who started the forum thread is not real. It is called trading marketing to capture the attention of eyes for ad clicks and self promotion.

Keep in mind, blew never posted any broker accounts or trading records to prove he his losses and wins.

My input, unless you showing broker accounts or trading records, you lying and guessing.


goodoboy View Post
The only way you know if a trader is not blowing smoke, is broker records and track records. Everything else someone has to say is completely a lie and guessing.

No Proof = Lying.

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  #155 (permalink)
MaverickV71
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Kudos for being willing to expose your ego to the whiles of anonymous strangers. Luckily here they're a supportive group.

You've handed over $60k for some lessons.

Here a few of them:

1) You can make money doing this.

2) You have the power to wreck yourself and your account.

3) You're an emotional/egotistical trader.

Add others as you see fit.

Trading is a three-legged chair: Method, Mind and Money (Management). You need to focus on the latter 2 for a while. Van Tharp and Mark Douglas changed my life and trading; they will yours too.

Your wife should not be able to know whether or not you've had a good day. Besides, who needs that pressure?

I've done what you've described thrice. I'm a slow learner. Hopefully you're better than me?

Maverick

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mluka
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goodoboy View Post


P.S. I am non-profitable day trader and probably should not be giving trading advice. So take my advice as such.

Ha ha ha!

That IS good!

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  #157 (permalink)
goodoboy
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mluka View Post
Ha ha ha!

That IS good!

LMAO, its the truth. And if everyone makes that disclaimer, it keeps things simple.

But, hey, simple is the new complex these days.

Disclaimer: I am non-profitable day trader and I probably should not be giving trading advice. So take my advice as such.

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  #158 (permalink)
Bubba1
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I just read the first post of this thread.

Surely there are some guidelines in the forum about using four-letter words that start with s and f ???

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  #159 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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The rules are basically be polite, friendly, helpful. We are adults, many of whom do use colorful language. Especially in stressful times, which trading can bring forward...

But of course, if someone goes overboard then it's not welcome.

If your are offended by four letter words, your can also use the ignore feature.

Bubba1 View Post
I just read the first post of this thread.

Surely there are some guidelines in the forum about using four-letter words that start with s and f ???

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  #160 (permalink)
 j77777 
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I don't know about all the features on the site. Does the ignore feature filter the foul language before it is read? I am an adult , going on 70 and still find it offensive. Maybe I will grow up sometime soon.

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bhavin90
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i have been through this. took two months to accumulate profits and blew it all in just 9 seconds.

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  #162 (permalink)
GH0ST 0P
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i have been through this. took two months to accumulate profits and blew it all in just 9 seconds.

Ouch

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  #163 (permalink)
 xplorer 
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j77777 View Post
I don't know about all the features on the site. Does the ignore feature filter the foul language before it is read? I am an adult , going on 70 and still find it offensive. Maybe I will grow up sometime soon.

@j77777

The ignore feature is applied to users, not post.

So if you find a user using foul language you can choose to ignore them and you won't see their posts anymore.

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  #164 (permalink)
Gauer
garopaba + santa catarina
 
 
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That really sucks, I remember my first years I blew up 3 accounts doing exactly all the mistakes that you listed:

Forcing trades, chasing the market, overtrading, revenge trading with big positions to try to make up the losses just to lose more...

And I also knew what I was doing and knew I wasnīt supposed to do that, how come we do it?


And I still do it mildly somedays... The last couple of days, for example, I would start the days doing 2, 3 profitable trades then would give back all profits and some more. It had been a while since I had losing days, I would at least be a bit above breakeven. So in those last two days I did exactly that, I would lose the profits of the day then revenge trade or chase the market overtrading, a good chunk of my losses were commissions alone... And as someone posted here on this thread, somedays the market will do whatever it wants and completely ignore all your "perfect" analysis and all the principles of your method, even when you think you have an A++++++ trade, which was exactly what happened.


Instead of taking it easy and taking smaller positions or completely stop trading for the day, I Started spiraling into those behaviors, at least I came to my senses and stopped, but why did I do that? It only made me lose more money stupidly.

Why do we override our rules and sane and safe trading practices to do this crap? It pisses me off. For example, I shouldnīt trade (I rarely trade) on friday, and IF I do itīs only by morning because on the afternoon is just a chop fest, and yet there I Was trying to place trades..

You get pissed at the market (and you really shouldnīt) and become another person...You become completely irrational.

EDIT

PS: I think I Will write down my trading rules in a big piece of paper using big characters and lay it in front of my keyboard for next week, so there is really no excuse to engage in this behavior again. I will even write "Donīt forget the guy from futures.io forum who blew up the account". YOU KNOW BETTER!!!

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GH0ST 0P
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Gauer View Post
I will even write "Donīt forget the guy from futures.io forum who blew up the account". YOU KNOW BETTER!!![/B]

Lol, that's funny. I find novelty type tricks like this only work for like a week or so. It's more work working out our often times irrational psychological fears and tendencies. Like no one wants to do this, including myself, but it's worth more R than all your spreadsheets combined!

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  #166 (permalink)
Gauer
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GH0ST 0P View Post
Lol, that's funny. I find novelty type tricks like this only work for like a week or so. It's more work working out our often times irrational psychological fears and tendencies. Like no one wants to do this, including myself, but it's worth more R than all your spreadsheets combined!

Mind you that I wrote about "the guy who blew up the account", but did not even think to write the 3 times I blew up myself, to remind me of.

It is like the mind is playing the dumb card, as if it never had happened.

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  #167 (permalink)
Gauer
garopaba + santa catarina
 
 
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Here are my rules that I completely disrespected:

--Never Risk More Than 2% Of your Account Per Trade, Never Try To Make Up For Losses by Opening Big Positions

--Only Open Another Trade If You Already Have A "Free Trade" (STOP AT BREAKEVEN)

--If You Lose 3% Of Your Account, STOP TRADING FOR THE DAY (from initial balance of the day, after giving back trading profits)

--NEVER TRADE ON FRIDAY AFTERNOON

--I WILL NOT CHASE THE MARKET IF I HESITATED TAKING A TRADE WHERE I WAS SUPPOSED TO, NOR WILL I BECOME ANGRY BECAUSE OF IT - THE BUS LEFT AND THERE IS ALWAYS ANOTHER TRADE

--I WILL NOT FORCE TRADES BECAUSE OF FOMO OR JUST FOR THE SAKE OF IT BECAUSE I AM BORED

-I Will Only Take The Trades From The VSA Playbook (Springs, Upthrusts, No Demands and No Supplies at Areas Of Interest) - NO HAMSTERING FOR TAKING TRADES THAT DONīT FIT THE CRITERIA

--NEVER REVENGE TRADE! NEVER! IT IS IRRATIONAL BECOMING ANGRY AT THE MARKETS

--THE ONLY CASE where I Will Allow Myself A Big Position is: At Every US$1000 of Profits (What I mean by that is this: My initial balance of a high leverage forex account was US$1000. I would trade initially with 1/10 of a lot (0.1) - that was the regular trade size. So using a stop of 5 pips that was US$5. At every US$100 of profit, I would allow 1 trade of 1 lot (which is US$10 per pip, so the same trade would have a U$50 stop loss). Was a riskier shot, but at least I would have the other half (US$50) that would allow for 10 more trades using profit money. As your account grow bigger you just adjust it for itīs size keeping the same ratio.

New Additions:

---Even When You Think Your Analysis Is "Perfect" And You Have an A+++++ Setup, The Market Will Do Whatever It Wants, and Sometimes Will Completely Ignore The Principles of your Method. So again, NO NEED to get angry at the markets because "it didnīt do what it was supposed to do". Focus is ALWAYS on trade process and minimizing risk, NOT TRADE OUTCOME.

---REMEMBER THE 3 TIMES YOU BLEW UP YOUR ACCOUNT DISRESPECTING THOSE RULES!! REMEMBER THE GUY FROM FUTURES.IO FORUM

I will have those rules always on sight from now on (and that is another rule lol)

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  #168 (permalink)
 MNSTrading 
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2% may not seem like a lot but its quite a lot, especially if thereís no edge. Also if you trade multiple markets they can correlate which can bring the risk to 4%, 6% and so on.

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Gauer
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MNSTrading View Post
2% may not seem like a lot but its quite a lot, especially if thereís no edge. Also if you trade multiple markets they can correlate which can bring the risk to 4%, 6% and so on.

Yes but I rarely open a 2% risk trade.

From the example of my list, a US$5 stop loss on a US$1000 account equals 0.5%

You said "...if you trade multiple markets they can correlate which can bring the risk to 4%, 6% and so on", this is countermanded by the trading rule "only open another trade if previous trade is at breakeven", the "free trade". If you have a free trade, then the risk is reset to zero.

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  #170 (permalink)
lightsun47
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If you have a $1,000 account trading ES, how can you have a $5 stop loss? 1 tick = $12.50?
Gauer View Post
Yes but I rarely open a 2% risk trade.

From the example of my list, a US$5 stop loss on a US$1000 account equals 0.5%

You said "...if you trade multiple markets they can correlate which can bring the risk to 4%, 6% and so on", this is countermanded by the trading rule "only open another trade if previous trade is at breakeven", the "free trade". If you have a free trade, then the risk is reset to zero.

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  #171 (permalink)
Gauer
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lightsun47 View Post
If you have a $1,000 account trading ES, how can you have a $5 stop loss? 1 tick = $12.50?

Sent using the futures.io mobile app

Sorry If I wasnīt clear, but I was talking about a spot forex account. I thought it was implied since I used the term pips instead of ticks.

PS:

Donīt forget that there is the micro ES contract.

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  #172 (permalink)
 Sandpaddict 
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GH0ST 0P View Post
Lol, that's funny. I find novelty type tricks like this only work for like a week or so. It's more work working out our often times irrational psychological fears and tendencies. Like no one wants to do this, including myself, but it's worth more R than all your spreadsheets combined!

I agree with GH0ST 0P.

The reason you keep repeating the same mistakes is because your not addressing the REAL issue.

Take your list here:

-------------
1. --Never Risk More Than 2% Of your Account Per Trade, Never Try To Make Up For Losses by Opening Big Positions

2. --Only Open Another Trade If You Already Have A "Free Trade" (STOP AT BREAKEVEN)

3. --If You Lose 3% Of Your Account, STOP TRADING FOR THE DAY (from initial balance of the day, after giving back trading profits)

4. --NEVER TRADE ON FRIDAY AFTERNOON

5. --I WILL NOT CHASE THE MARKET IF I HESITATED TAKING A TRADE WHERE I WAS SUPPOSED TO, NOR WILL I BECOME ANGRY BECAUSE OF IT - THE BUS LEFT AND THERE IS ALWAYS ANOTHER TRADE

6. --I WILL NOT FORCE TRADES BECAUSE OF FOMO OR JUST FOR THE SAKE OF IT BECAUSE I AM BORED

7. -I Will Only Take The Trades From The VSA Playbook (Springs, Upthrusts, No Demands and No Supplies at Areas Of Interest) - NO HAMSTERING FOR TAKING TRADES THAT DONīT FIT THE CRITERIA

8. --NEVER REVENGE TRADE! NEVER! IT IS IRRATIONAL BECOMING ANGRY AT THE MARKETS

9. --THE ONLY CASE where I Will Allow Myself A Big Position is: At Every US$1000 of Profits (What I mean by that is this: My initial balance of a high leverage forex account was US$1000. I would trade initially with 1/10 of a lot (0.1) - that was the regular trade size. So using a stop of 5 pips that was US$5. At every US$100 of profit, I would allow 1 trade of 1 lot (which is US$10 per pip, so the same trade would have a U$50 stop loss). Was a riskier shot, but at least I would have the other half (US$50) that would allow for 10 more trades using profit money. As your account grow bigger you just adjust it for itīs size keeping the same ratio.

10. ---Even When You Think Your Analysis Is "Perfect" And You Have an A+++++ Setup, The Market Will Do Whatever It Wants, and Sometimes Will Completely Ignore The Principles of your Method. So again, NO NEED to get angry at the markets because "it didnīt do what it was supposed to do". Focus is ALWAYS on trade process and minimizing risk, NOT TRADE OUTCOME.

11. ---REMEMBER THE 3 TIMES YOU BLEW UP YOUR ACCOUNT DISRESPECTING THOSE RULES!! REMEMBER THE GUY FROM FUTURES.IO FORUM
-------------------

Ok super. 11 trading RULES. That should do it. Right?

OK. #1. Never trade more than %2 on any one trade.

Why have you broken that rule in the past? Undercapitalized? Not taking/moving stops? (Because you just can't take another loss in a row)

How can you recognize when you are doing it in real time? How can you decide ahead of time how to deal?

#2. Only add once position has moved enough in your favor to move stop to break even.

Ok. Again why have you broken the rule in the past? Impatience? Emotional trading. Revenge trading?

How can you recognize REAL TIME you are doing this? How SHOULD you repond to the feelings that make you want to break the rule in the first place?

... #10. Focus on trading correctly NOT results. Ok. What sends you into P&L HYPER FOCUS? Find a way to identify situations where you are too focused on only P&L or overly winning oriented.

Solution: refocus effort on reverting back to focusing on PROCESSES and not purely results.

Do this all the way to eleven WITH A WRITEN PLAN WITH WHAT TO DO if you find yourself ready to break your rules as you have a PLAN OF ACTION instead of plain old REACTION.

If you DON'T do this you are almost guaranteed to keep doing the same thing and getting the same results.

You'll remember rule #11 painfully AFTER you do it again and again!

Why do we expect to do the same thing and get different results? Cause were human and we all do it.

Just one insignificant mans opinion.

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  #173 (permalink)
redbarntrades
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MaverickV71 View Post
Kudos for being willing to expose your ego to the whiles of anonymous strangers. Luckily here they're a supportive group.

You've handed over $60k for some lessons.

Here a few of them:

1) You can make money doing this.

2) You have the power to wreck yourself and your account.

3) You're an emotional/egotistical trader.

Add others as you see fit.

Trading is a three-legged chair: Method, Mind and Money (Management). You need to focus on the latter 2 for a while. Van Tharp and Mark Douglas changed my life and trading; they will yours too.

Your wife should not be able to know whether or not you've had a good day. Besides, who needs that pressure?

I've done what you've described thrice. I'm a slow learner. Hopefully you're better than me?

Maverick

Hey, what a great and simple comment:

"Trading is a three-legged chair: Method, Mind and Money (Management)." I really like that!

Yep, Frau Redbarntrades and I have listened to Mark Douglas over and over again. We are sorry he left this life so soon.

Say hello to my favorite Austrian band "Ursprung Buam" if you run into them! (haha)

I second all that you wrote actually!

TschŁss!

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  #174 (permalink)
MaverickV71
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Ourselves are the biggest problem, the market will just reveal that.

I put my first trade on in 1988 and I'm still learning the craft. I've been fortunate enough to have worked on trading floors for major global banks in London. The UK market is very different to the US. Nevertheless, it's a common joke that a trader sitting in an office of a bank will make millions, then go out on his own and blow up. Why does that happen? Long story short, his freedom is his undoing. There is no manager imposing limits on losses, or sending him home after a losing streak. The plaster over his lack of self-control is pulled off.

These same banks are now spending millions every year on developing automated systems, but the human trader still plays a role for them albeit diminishing.

The mindset I've developed is "what would an expensively developed software system in a bank do now?"

I also have a few crutches that serve me well. I've set up a series of calendar and smartphone reminders that pop up during the day reminding me of events about to happen. For example NFP is coming out, so for about an hour beforehand the markets move sideways. When the news hits then prices gyrate and usually return to their starting point 15 minutes later. That kind of reminder. FYI I solely trade indices.

I do wonder about in these unprecedented times how many people are trading because they have to? Is their need to succeed so great that it is their undoing? There is a balancing act between having an account great enough to withstand a drawdown and having money to make the rent. On top of that people might trade an instrument unsuited to their personality and/or are trading the wrong timeframe.

There are times of the day when the markets are not worth trading because liquidity dries up, so getting exercise then to burn off cortisol works for me. Most people call that lunchtime, I call it "re-charge time".

The book you suggest is new to me and I shall get it, so thank you for that.

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  #175 (permalink)
 Sandpaddict 
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MaverickV71 View Post
Trading is a three-legged chair: Method, Mind and Money (Management).

I really like this analogy as you NEED all three.

Thank you

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  #176 (permalink)
 Adolpho911 
Amsterdam + Netherland
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: PRT probably Edgeclears
Broker: (PRT.) Edgeclear Rithmic
Trading: Emini ES, Nq (Dax when Rithmic get euro data) futures only
 
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I have not read all the posts, but I saw one in the firsts few pages, that I was thinking at once I read it.
You dont make your money grow 1000% without being extremly lucky or donr some very risky trades. I think the other guy said this was bound to come.

I dont understand that people here think it is great doing 1000% in 5 months. It isnt, its crazy.

Sounds like a martingale system in a massive bullmarket, (maybe even without starting with original bet adter win) or something strange stuff getting insane lucky on oom options on GME or whatever.

I am not so sure about the story math either, if the numbers are correct, your down ("quick head math") 86%!! (Not sure if 1000% is the commone way to describe a 100% win to 14k, 100 more to 28k, 100 more 56, and then some change, but I am not a mathematican, just that usually 1000% sometimes doubling up 10 times, which you didnt, but as said, no mathematican, but I know, the 86& down is correct, if not you would own, 70k 9 times over.. Maybe a comfort?

I will also say something regarding "free trades" There are never free trades. when your up, they are your money, aint they? Surely you dont feel the money in red is still your, because they arent cllosed out yrt. Just a point regarding "playing with fee money/thee house money/etc"
As said, not like you will get your money back when in red. The money in blue is yours, which autumaticly involves them in your 2%. If you want to ignore it fine, but stop thinking the money isnt yours.

Adolpho911
"Faith does not always let you fix the tuition fee; she delivers the educational wallop and sets her own bill" Jesse Livermore
"I am not curious when I know everything" Adolpho911
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  #177 (permalink)
 Sandpaddict 
Langley
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninjatrader
Broker: IB
Trading: Futures
 
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Adolpho911 View Post
I have not read all the posts, but I saw one in the firsts few pages, that I was thinking at once I read it.
You dont make your money grow 1000% without being extremly lucky or donr some very risky trades. I think the other guy said this was bound to come.

I dont understand that people here think it is great doing 1000% in 5 months. It isnt, its crazy.

Sounds like a martingale system in a massive bullmarket, (maybe even without starting with original bet adter win) or something strange stuff getting insane lucky on oom options on GME or whatever.

I am not so sure about the story math either, if the numbers are correct, your down ("quick head math") 86%!! (Not sure if 1000% is the commone way to describe a 100% win to 14k, 100 more to 28k, 100 more 56, and then some change, but I am not a mathematican, just that usually 1000% sometimes doubling up 10 times, which you didnt, but as said, no mathematican, but I know, the 86& down is correct, if not you would own, 70k 9 times over.. Maybe a comfort?

I will also say something regarding "free trades" There are never free trades. when your up, they are your money, aint they? Surely you dont feel the money in red is still your, because they arent cllosed out yrt. Just a point regarding "playing with fee money/thee house money/etc"
As said, not like you will get your money back when in red. The money in blue is yours, which autumaticly involves them in your 2%. If you want to ignore it fine, but stop thinking the money isnt yours.

I didn't do the math either but I'm assuming it's betting the whole thing everytime to get those kind of numbers?

I'm on the fence about the "it's your money thing".

In my view, it's ONLY your money after you close the trade.

I think I understand the "it's your money argument" but it's no more yours then when the "loss is yours" before you close the trade in a loss.

Maybe its semantics.

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  #178 (permalink)
Gauer
garopaba + santa catarina
 
 
Posts: 43 since Aug 2019
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Adolpho911 View Post
I have not read all the posts, but I saw one in the firsts few pages, that I was thinking at once I read it.
You dont make your money grow 1000% without being extremly lucky or donr some very risky trades. I think the other guy said this was bound to come.

I dont understand that people here think it is great doing 1000% in 5 months. It isnt, its crazy.

Sounds like a martingale system in a massive bullmarket, (maybe even without starting with original bet adter win) or something strange stuff getting insane lucky on oom options on GME or whatever.

I am not so sure about the story math either, if the numbers are correct, your down ("quick head math") 86%!! (Not sure if 1000% is the commone way to describe a 100% win to 14k, 100 more to 28k, 100 more 56, and then some change, but I am not a mathematican, just that usually 1000% sometimes doubling up 10 times, which you didnt, but as said, no mathematican, but I know, the 86& down is correct, if not you would own, 70k 9 times over.. Maybe a comfort?

I will also say something regarding "free trades" There are never free trades. when your up, they are your money, aint they? Surely you dont feel the money in red is still your, because they arent cllosed out yrt. Just a point regarding "playing with fee money/thee house money/etc"
As said, not like you will get your money back when in red. The money in blue is yours, which autumaticly involves them in your 2%. If you want to ignore it fine, but stop thinking the money isnt yours.


Free trade, to me, is a a trade in which the stop is at breakeven. If the money is not being taken from my initial balance of the day, then it is free (to me), Current day profit money, this doesnīt trigger an emotional response in me, whereas if initial balance is down does.

Also, it is also a free trade as in free of concern, that initial moment of uncertainty and anguish is gone, so I just donīt care about it anymore. What you absolutely CAN`T do is allow a winner turn into a loser, that is just stupid. If you have a big move from your entry and you are not trading with multiple targets, at least move the stop to just below 50% of the move.

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