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What Is the Source of Your Edge??


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What Is the Source of Your Edge??

  #81 (permalink)
yolo778778
Malaysia
 
Posts: 27 since Aug 2020
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WELD View Post
@yolo778778

I'd say Orderflow IS pretty close to the holy grail. You can see whats going and everything you said. You just need a good Mentor that teaches you how to read the footprints/orderflow and interpret it right.

After that it takes lots of practise and time. It feels a bit like starting over with learning to trade if you come from equities. But its worth it!



Yes, now I gave up trading based on order flow analysis and DOM. I actually have some improvements recently. I appied some of my swing trade indicators/techniques and tweak them to fit daytrading.

My main issue is never with order flow. The issue is people still have to interpret it. And it can be easy for some, but not for me. To me, it is more “trappy” than regular charting and volumes analysis.


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  #82 (permalink)
lightsun47
Toronto, Canada
 
Posts: 357 since May 2018
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WELD View Post
@yolo778778
I'd say Orderflow IS pretty close to the holy grail. You can see whats going and everything you said. You just need a good Mentor that teaches you how to read the footprints/orderflow and interpret it right.
After that it takes lots of practise and time. It feels a bit like starting over with learning to trade if you come from equities. But its worth it!

And I thought order flow is just outclassed these days with the advancements in fake orders and fake breakouts.

Maybe (maybe) BookMap can be the closest best thing when it comes to order flow trading instead of the regular one. My observation and 2 cents.

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  #83 (permalink)
 jamrock 
tampa florida
 
Posts: 63 since Sep 2020


Let me start by saying edge is defineable but fleeting because the mkt is always changing. let me start by saying the person who said incorrectly that bots algos dont change the mkts which changes edge should be looked at as suspect for even making such an absurd statement. Bots n algos have jobs to do which is primarily to execute orders and size for customers who trade more notional in a day than you will all year.

in doing so they take liquidity for some while slackening the line for others. this without a doubt changes edge. look at floor m pit traders what happened to their edge? yeah the mkt changed the technology changed the correlations changed the speed changes notice changes. volume gets more fragmented and current mkts with free stock trading commissions havectet again wiped out some edge for you retail and given pros dma 50 million budget for data n tech a year outfits n phds the edge even more with pre real time order flow.

so to begin. yes you can make money day trading. yes you can absolutely make money buying n holding depending on time frame decades and leverage cash equiv. positions. forget margin. trade it like its full on 100% margin. 1 micro es 15k riughly for 1! leverage steals your edge over time l. if you are in a hurry to make money trading then your edge must be that much better than the next guys speed edge. its all speed when fighting for contracts.

the sunsets every day typically in the same fashion but the colors change the timing changes the angles based on a beach structure change but the sun still sets. the mkt does change. edge comes and goes just like skills are built and repetitive actions help to create consistency not in profit but in how you play the game.

you wont truly cut losses properly until you have a repeatable edge. once u know you have repeatable edge you will gladly take small losses. why? i will tell you. because you will start realizing im using my edge to constantly dig myself out of the intraday loss holes i keep creating by holding losers too long or entering too early or with too much leverage my point is that uf you consistently can ckimb out of losses trading then u have edge but must start cutting losses sooner or start making better entries. once you have n find real edge you should be able to use oddities in your own p n l to say hmm. im doing something wrong again or the mkt has changed what am i missing. there are lots of repeatable processes that just stop working.

uf u cant figure out the problem quickly then move on to another mkt or style. edges constantly change. if ur a fader n its trending thats a change. consolidation is a change. a guy buying 5000 es might be covering shorts n guess what he will move the mkts. the es may appear to be highly liquid but do a 10 lot like i do frequently even in the mini n watch your distribution of fills n slippage its huge!! my point us that the depth from pre 2008 never came back because hft is so fast they dont need to display. they are filling before u can even see the trade. back in the day you had retail making mkts and tge billions in small gains currently going to hft was going yip right into our retail traders gains. but of course big money always wins. older screen traders could do 500 on 1 to 2 levels in the es back then. that was liquidity n the messaging the cancels um very few compared to todays hft. 98 cancels on average for 1 fill. thats real information.

anyway u can still find your edge and it starts with trusting your mkt knowing your mkt n knowing yourself. skill is important. speed important fees important. patience important. edges cone and go seasonally hourly daily monthly. you must learn your edge.

indicators if working for u great sure they are latent but so is your data feed!! i trade on latent news and signals all the time but thats my edge. my edge is that i understand fully my only control is in buying and selling . im either taking loss or taking profit. im not trading. im taking loss or taking profit all the time it is all i can control.

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  #84 (permalink)
three86
Vista, California USA
 
Posts: 51 since Aug 2020
Thanks Given: 3
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There is more you can control beyond taking loss or profit

Markets - What to buy or sell
Position Sizing - How much to buy or sell
Entries - When to buy or sell
Stops - When to get out of a losing position
Exits - When to get out of a winning position
Tactics - How to buy or sell

Also the market may be always changing but it is also not ever changing. If you take one hour of price action and compare it to any number of years ago it is the same up, down, or flat. If you bought in the first minute of the hour and sold in the last minute you would have 3 possible outcomes.

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  #85 (permalink)
 jamrock 
tampa florida
 
Posts: 63 since Sep 2020


three86 View Post
There is more you can control beyond taking loss or profit

Markets - What to buy or sell
Position Sizing - How much to buy or sell
Entries - When to buy or sell
Stops - When to get out of a losing position
Exits - When to get out of a winning position
Tactics - How to buy or sell

Also the market may be always changing but it is also not ever changing. If you take one hour of price action and compare it to any number of years ago it is the same up, down, or flat. If you bought in the first minute of the hour and sold in the last minute you would have 3 possible outcomes.

I am not sure what the pointof this person saying there is more to control than just buying and selling about what i wrote so i decided to break down their list into buying and selling. i feel like if you have nothign to add to the "edge" thread and your sole purpose is to try and show someone's opinion as wrong then yuo deserve to be ribbed a little so here it goes based on your rebuttal to my OPINION

IMPERATIVE to remember i said ALL I CAN CONTROL IS BUYING and SELLING
your list
markets-what to buy and sell = i think i clearly encompassed this by saying all i can control is buying and selling
position sizing - how much to buy and sell ( again i said i can control buyiing and selling)
entries- when to buy or sell you said= um is this different than sayin i can control buy sell ?
exits-when to get out of a winning position? um to "offset cover or flatten a position you must buy or sell ..duh
Tactics- how to buy or sell um once again i rest my case on all i have control over is buyng and selling

this made my day

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  #86 (permalink)
Gauer
garopaba + santa catarina
 
Posts: 45 since Aug 2019
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VSA (volume spread analysis)

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  #87 (permalink)
three86
Vista, California USA
 
Posts: 51 since Aug 2020
Thanks Given: 3
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jamrock View Post
I am not sure what the pointof this person saying there is more to control than just buying and selling about what i wrote so i decided to break down their list into buying and selling. i feel like if you have nothign to add to the "edge" thread and your sole purpose is to try and show someone's opinion as wrong then yuo deserve to be ribbed a little so here it goes based on your rebuttal to my OPINION

IMPERATIVE to remember i said ALL I CAN CONTROL IS BUYING and SELLING
your list
markets-what to buy and sell = i think i clearly encompassed this by saying all i can control is buying and selling
position sizing - how much to buy and sell ( again i said i can control buyiing and selling)
entries- when to buy or sell you said= um is this different than sayin i can control buy sell ?
exits-when to get out of a winning position? um to "offset cover or flatten a position you must buy or sell ..duh
Tactics- how to buy or sell um once again i rest my case on all i have control over is buyng and selling

this made my day

if you are not familiar with that list google "the original turtle trading rules"

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  #88 (permalink)
 JBWTrader 
Murrays Bay
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT*,Tradestation
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Frequency: Many times daily
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source ? well failings of market leaders to cover their tracks .....

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  #89 (permalink)
 
speck's Avatar
 speck 
Kharkiv, Ukraine
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker: NinjaTrader/Dorman
Trading: ES
Posts: 28 since Dec 2012
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Per Wyckoff, the edge lies in identifying what the smart money is doing at your timeframe and above.

The rest is trying to decypher that.

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  #90 (permalink)
yolo778778
Malaysia
 
Posts: 27 since Aug 2020
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yolo778778 View Post
I just started day trading futures. And lost $500 a half month into it :0

I now really question my desire to daytrade futures. I have been swingtrading stock and my account averages around $1000 gain each month over past year (about 3% to 5% ROI monthly)

I bought into the technical beauty of volumes study, order flow. I love how people have Jigsaw DOM lined up in thier monitors, knowing what drives prices up and down. Looks cool AF.

Whereas when I swingtrade stock, I focus on indicators and, at most, some volumes profile.

They say TA is not as reliavle, I agree, but why it is making me profits while reading price action is so tricky.

I put 3 hours into future trading each day, but only 1 hour for swing trading stocks (excepted for research)

Man, swing trading stock is just 9-5 to me, kind of boring now.

But the result really have me question my motive to daytrade futures :0


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After a month of changing my strategy from DOM- and Volume Imprint- based to using indicators and charting.I’m glad to report I have already recovered my loss and having gains now.

So find an edge and if it works, don’t change it because you see something cool on the internet.


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Last Updated on October 9, 2020


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