STOPS are Frustrating (SL) take or not to take - Psychology and Money Management | futures io social day trading
futures io futures trading

STOPS are Frustrating (SL) take or not to take
Updated: Views / Replies:17,742 / 113
Created: by hatorihanzo Attachments:3

Welcome to futures io.

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

futures io is the largest futures trading community on the planet, with over 90,000 members. At futures io, our goal has always been and always will be to create a friendly, positive, forward-thinking community where members can openly share and discuss everything the world of trading has to offer. The community is one of the friendliest you will find on any subject, with members going out of their way to help others. Some of the primary differences between futures io and other trading sites revolve around the standards of our community. Those standards include a code of conduct for our members, as well as extremely high standards that govern which partners we do business with, and which products or services we recommend to our members.

At futures io, our focus is on quality education. No hype, gimmicks, or secret sauce. The truth is: trading is hard. To succeed, you need to surround yourself with the right support system, educational content, and trading mentors Ė all of which you can find on futures io, utilizing our social trading environment.

With futures io, you can find honest trading reviews on brokers, trading rooms, indicator packages, trading strategies, and much more. Our trading review process is highly moderated to ensure that only genuine users are allowed, so you donít need to worry about fake reviews.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading sites:
  • We are here to help. Just let us know what you need.
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive in our community.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, we can help you find it.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.

You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

Thread Tools Search this Thread

STOPS are Frustrating (SL) take or not to take

  #61 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Los Angeles, California
Futures Experience: None
Platform: Ninja Trader
Favorite Futures: oil, gold
Posts: 34 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 0 given, 6 received

Keep using stops. They're good for you. Read more news, become more familiar with the cause and effects of the market.

I suggest looking at daily economic reports released by Report Schedule. They are news makers. If you see what's scheduled for the next couple of weeks you will gain a better understanding of what kinds of news to expect. Weather positive or negative is still unpredictable but the fact that you know the TYPE of news it will be will prepare you better.

Reply With Quote
  #62 (permalink)
Elite Member
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: IB
Favorite Futures: 6E, 6C, 6B and ES, NQ, YM
Posts: 94 since Jul 2009
Thanks: 45 given, 31 received

Diferent look

This guy have a diferent look about STOPS:
Incredible Charts: What's New: Stop Losses ? Help or Hindrance?

Reply With Quote
  #63 (permalink)
Elite Member
Pismo Beach CA
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TOS, IB, Fidelity for 'swing' trades
Favorite Futures: ES, NQ, IBB, IWM, NG
heywally's Avatar
Posts: 160 since Apr 2010
Thanks: 80 given, 89 received

Barrosco View Post
This guy have a diferent look about STOPS:
Incredible Charts: What's New: Stop Losses ? Help or Hindrance?

When you get right down to it, 'day trading' with stops and quick profits is by far the toughest trading possible. If you are using size, you have to have great entries and you HAVE to use stops because otherwise, your capital will eventually get some unacceptably big hits when the market goes against you.

You could however, cobble together a reasonable long-only dip buying 'swing trading' system utilizing stock indexes that uses conservative position sizes and a high level of selectivity on the entries and does not do any buying during panicky selling. You would however, only buy after weakness up to a conservative % of your total capital and you would scale-in on more weakness, up to a point.

You could do this with no stops if you didn't have more than a conservative x % of your capital committed at any point. The tough part then becomes figuring out when to sell and you could still flip stuff over in day trading style, during certain market conditions. The one weakness of this or any other buy/hold strategy is being exposed long to any degree during a black swan event that closes the markets down. Of course, you have to have some capital behind this to make it viable for making decent amounts of money.

Anyway, this is what I am working at because let's face it, buying the dip with stock indexes usually works in the longer run IF your entries are excellent and you are willing to take 'some' profits on the way back up, never having your inventory get to be too large.

I hate stops and I hate risk.

"The Future Ain't what it used to be"
Reply With Quote
  #64 (permalink)
Elite Member
Portland, OR
Futures Experience: None
Platform: tos
Favorite Futures: S&P e-mini, Lumber Futures
Massive l's Avatar
Posts: 1,465 since Mar 2011
Thanks: 926 given, 1,838 received

That is why it is of my opinion that stops should be discretionary and not used
systematically. When I enter a trade and it starts to move, I am watching the tape
and the order flow as well as price (duh) + volume. Treat stops as if you're a painter putting
the finishing touches on your picture. Stops are the last part of the equation (for a day trader)
that separate the winners from the losers.

The initial placement of my stop is based on my method and has an exact spot but it's not always
the same % or ticks away from entry.

This is what I think and feel from my 2 years of experience as a trader. I have a lot more to learn
and am always willing to adjust as I'm open minded to new ideas and concepts.

Anyone use a discretionary style?

I know one of the greatest day traders ever used a fixed dollar stop (Martin Schwartz)

Last edited by Massive l; April 20th, 2011 at 06:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #65 (permalink)
Elite Member
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: Forex
aediaz1's Avatar
Posts: 57 since Apr 2011
Thanks: 20 given, 39 received

Placing SL above/below daily high/low gives you an statistical advantage since the market have limited ability to take change its daily trend. I use a few more criteria's like the size of the SL should be less than 40 pips.

Stop loss location can be a frustrating challenge for aspiring daytraders, seeing their beloved SL being "hunted" down in a flash. If you enter your positions by technical analyses, you should exit by it too. Like surgeons doesn't stop operating after a predefined time, random predefined numbers (i.e 50 pips) for SL will most likely reduce your performance.

Here is an example how using last swing low/high would have shaken my long position out if I didn't hide SL outside the daily range;

"We may not be able to control the wind, but we can always adjust our sails"
Attached Thumbnails
STOPS are Frustrating (SL) take or not to take-gbpchf-15-min-21_04_2011.jpg  

Last edited by aediaz1; April 22nd, 2011 at 06:33 PM. Reason: added content
Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to aediaz1 for this post:
  #66 (permalink)
Breathe the body deep.
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: FxTrade/Ninjatrader
Broker/Data: Oanda/MBT
Favorite Futures: Eur/Usd
Trankuility's Avatar
Posts: 269 since Jan 2011
Thanks: 54 given, 151 received

Love my small stops. Don't like them at the time, but at the end of the session when I see how my small stops kept my losses tiny and my profits nice, I feel proud. Like yeah, I did that. hah.

Most of my stops are tiny and place them based on momentum. So is discretionary. Though if I take a full stop (around 6 pips) I aim to place it above/below recent s/r.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Trankuility for this post:
  #67 (permalink)
Membership Revoked
Futures Experience: Beginner
Posts: 1,081 since May 2010
Thanks: 2,092 given, 596 received

Guys, please keep using your stops as before, it's 1 of my favorite trading techniques, hunting them down that is !

Reply With Quote
  #68 (permalink)
Elite Member
Las Vegas, USA
Futures Experience: Master
Platform: Ninja, Multicharts, Proprietary
Favorite Futures: Energies
Posts: 48 since Jun 2011
Thanks: 1 given, 9 received

Some traders are mandated to use stops, usually in the case of a bank proprietary trader. Some traders do not have such a mandate.

For reversion systems, I always found it most comfortable to start with a wide stop, and quickly tighten down the stop to the pivot point closest to my entry after a certain amount of profitable ticks have been made.

For trend continuation systems I am most comfortable using a trailing stop.

I am a big believer in black boxing systems while still have a manual override capability to change the stop or trailing stop.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Baseheadz for this post:
  #69 (permalink)
Membership Temporarily Revoked
siam, west coast andaman sea
Futures Experience: Master
Platform: ninja
Favorite Futures: gc, cl, tf, 6e
nakachalet's Avatar
Posts: 512 since Aug 2011
Thanks: 559 given, 200 received

finding a GOOD STOP is like finding a MED for cold

hatorihanzo View Post
So ive been trading ES for a few years now and i must say, i have truly mixed feelings about taking stops.

ive tried a million angles to work this right and it just never seems to work out right. These are the 3 scenarios i am faced with every single trading day.

1. When you use a tight stop, lets say 8 ticks, the mkt comes back to stop you out by 1 tick and then goes your original way, whether long or short.

2. When you use a wider stops. say 16 ticks, the mkt comes all the way down there to get you for an even bigger loss, in which case, you were better off using the 8 tick stop. (it feels like there is someone looking over my shoulder as i am placing my stops and so they KNOW where i put it so they can come down to get me out)

3. When you use NO stops, the market CRASHES ( May 6 ) or if you are shorting, it will rally 30+ handles and leave you with a HUGE LOSS.

What is a trader to do?? Taking stops is like SLOW DEATH of your account..just delaying the inevitable...and NOT taking stops is like getting wiped out clean in a single day. Both has happened to me. I lost over 10k over the last year using stops, only to see most of those actually go the way i originally planned.

So in Mar and April of this year, i decided on NOT using stops. i would buy lower at incremental levels, like -10 etc. worked great for 2 months, and at the min, got out breakeven on bad days.....Then comes May 6, unsuspecting of what was about to happen, i did what i started doing...then all of a sudden, i found myself long 12 contracts and $17k loss in 10 mins...closed out at the lows, only to find that had i waited a few more mins, i would have had gotten out BE.

anyhow, id appreciate any feedback on STOPS, and how to use them, because it seems that ur doomed if u dont, and ur STILL doomed at a slower rate if u do.

i lost 10k over 12 months and 17k in 12 mins...i have no clue


finding an effective stoploss is very much like trying to find an effective dose of med for cold.

as far as my personal experience is concerned, there is none to be settled on as yet to date.

traders who have survived through rough beginning will testify that it is naive to expect market conditions to conform to your own set of perfect setups, expectations and formula.

as a trader, the moment you stop exploring the complementary possibility to whatever setups you have been successfully using in the past decades, you'll also discover that whatever targets that have been so effective will also begin to fade away from you.

hatorihanzo, some traders started out experimenting with 21 tics in day trading, then gradually tightening up to 19, 16.... 9 and 4... at present.

but only a fool would set the stoploss at 4 consistently to trade across the market conditions.

on the other hand, it is also inconceivable to change stoploss as you trade along which would be like flying without a flight plan, so to speak.

my humble suggestion would be for you to sim out the range for each product you choose to trade, and set your personal fortune plus or minus a few tics above or below that range.... like many who trade for a living do.... all the time.... in order to survive....

hatorihanzo, wish you good hunting and good fortune as well. many traders use stoploss less than 10 tics effective, but i suspect only a small percentage of that group would effectively use 6 or less to trade profitable AND consistently. i do hope the distinction between stoploss of 6 tics and the stoploss set at plus or minus 1 or 2 above or below previous bar, is clearly perceived to avoid subsequent misunderstanding and argument.

if anyone have any doubt if or whether it is probable even to trade with 4 or 5 or 6 tics stop, the attached pix taken today, 2011/09/26 right after lunch at 13:48:11 and lasted only 34 seconds, will provide some clues to its possibility.

good trading everyone. (my apology for not reading thru all the rich and famous posts, before replying, my better half only allows me a few minutes break every now and then )

Attached Thumbnails
STOPS are Frustrating (SL) take or not to take-tight-stoploss-also-prevents-heartbreaking-reversal-loss.png  
Reply With Quote
  #70 (permalink)
Membership Temporarily Revoked
siam, west coast andaman sea
Futures Experience: Master
Platform: ninja
Favorite Futures: gc, cl, tf, 6e
nakachalet's Avatar
Posts: 512 since Aug 2011
Thanks: 559 given, 200 received

neke, oh my dear neke.... whereforth arth thou....?

aslan View Post
For starters, there is no one looking for "your" stop. Do "they" run stops from time to time, yes they do. Why? Because they know where all of the stops are and it is just a short term liquidity trade, as they move price to either load up or take profits at better prices.

How do they know where the stops are? Just look at a chart, all of the stops are around the pivots or an even number of points from the pivots. Market profile/Cumulative Delta can also show some interesting levels. So, if everyone knows where they are, how do you fix that? You don't, because it does not matter. Stops are there as protection, to stop you from blowing out an account in 12 min. You always want to live to trade another day.

Can you use big stops to avoid the short term games? Yes, but you still have to have that protective stop somewhere, and it should fit your money management plan, because you should take that stop when it comes. If you have good high probability entries, then this approach can make more sense, but you are really just consolidating all of those smaller losses into an occasional larger loss. Backtesting can tell you if it makes sense, but you also have to decide if psychologically you can actually trade this way, as you can not pull/move that stop as it approaches.

Finally, can you trade with no stop? Yes, it is really just an extension of using a really big stop, but based on your account size and money management you are playing with fire. It only takes one time and you are out of business.

At the end of the day, you need good entries, and a stop that keeps you out of the short term volatility while your trade remains valid and plays out.

my highly esteemed aslan, agree with you completely.

reminding me of a trader by the name of neke....

only if everyone could read neke's trading journal.... with understanding and sympathy....

he/she successfully traded to around $600,000 from $40,000+ as currently reported.

but as of his/her last report last week, the balance is still positive but at around $196,000 or so....

and many traders are encouraging him/her to stop and to reexamine and reevaluate his/her setups, hoping that the acct would grow and multiply later.

he/she seems to have taken none of the suggestions so far.

perhaps, if he/she could read your post, it might turn things around.

aslan, thx.

Reply With Quote


futures io > > > STOPS are Frustrating (SL) take or not to take

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)

Wyckoff Hunting for Great Risk/Reward Ratio w/Gary Fullett

Elite only

Digging into the Details of iSystems w/Stage 5 & iSystems

Jun 5

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sell stops not filled cihde Traders Hideout 7 August 21st, 2011 01:57 PM
Monthly Stops crmtrade EasyLanguage Programming 4 December 5th, 2010 08:29 AM
Stops, trailing and breakeven stops jonc NinjaTrader 4 November 9th, 2010 12:06 AM
Rookie question about stops dertixo Traders Hideout 3 March 11th, 2010 11:56 PM
Targets + Stops max-td Psychology and Money Management 24 September 14th, 2009 05:41 PM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:11 AM.

Copyright © 2018 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432,
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts
Page generated 2018-05-20 in 0.16 seconds with 20 queries on phoenix via your IP