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Practical Spiritual Trading


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Practical Spiritual Trading

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Market Chamois
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Practical Spiritual Trading

FIO just had a webinar on this subject (near and dear to my heart) and now seems the perfect time to begin this thread. Thank you @Big Mike and Super Moderators...yet again. Find it here.....

This thread, in my view and if all goes as planned, can become the cornerstone of your trading. Your best Edge,

Something that might spill over to the rest of your life.

As the saying goes.....

Quoting 
"As goes life, so goes trading."

paraphrasing/quoting FT71 who's quoting a big time floor trader in a webinar some years ago

I don't expect this thread to be the most popular or for everyone by any means. What is, in this sphere? I can pretty much guarantee this much....lol. Also "No Hurry" will most probably be the feel or tone, I'm betting.

Thread definition:

Practical: can be put into practice, actionable, not some pie in the sky mumbo jumbo that's hard to swallow or has the fragrance of holier than thou.

Spiritual: in as much as the characteristics and attributes of the spirit (huh? did he just start with mumbo jumbo, he just said he wouldn't ..lol... that good ole talking in a circle....lol).

Trading: Profitable/successful market speculation/hedging consistently over time.

More later.....

Ron

...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
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Blash View Post
Practical Spiritual Trading

FIO just had a webinar on this subject (near and dear to my heart) and now seems the perfect time to begin this thread. Thank you @Big Mike and Super Moderators...yet again. Find it here.....

This thread, in my view and if all goes as planned, can become the cornerstone of your trading. Your best Edge,
Something that might spill over to the rest of your life.

As the saying goes.....


paraphrasing/quoting FT71 who's quoting a big time floor trader in a webinar some years ago

I don't expect this thread to be the most popular or for everyone by any means. What is, in this sphere? I can pretty much guarantee this much....lol. Also "No Hurry" will most probably be the feel or tone, I'm betting.

Thread definition:

Practical: can be put into practice, actionable, not some pie in the sky mumbo jumbo that's hard to swallow or has the fragrance of holier than thou.

Spiritual: in as much as the characteristics and attributes of the spirit (huh? did he just start with
mumbo jumbo, he just said he wouldn't ..lol... that good ole talking in a circle....lol).

Trading: Profitable/successful market speculation/hedging consistently over time.

More later.....

Ron

So glad you started this, Ron. Now we can get out of the webinar window and have a proper discussion of a most interesting topic.

Thanks,

mlm

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A quick post here before going down for the count (bed) to state, in my view, what this thread is not about.

Just to be clear…this is:
Not about some sort of ESP or Extra Sensory Perception.
Not about “tuning” into the market somehow and getting glimpses or flashes of the future you are then able to act on.
Not about ghosts.
Not about talking to spirits.
Not about a Ouija board.
Not about a séance.
Not about magic.
Not about witchcraft.
Not about black magic.
Not about any particular religion.
Ron

...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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The attached picture shows a u-tube Ted Talk that discussed the Remote Viewing project done by the CIA in the 1980's. At this point in the video he told us that the group had looked into the future to see what silver futures were going to do and they placed some trades. The picture shows the successful results. Here is the link to the video ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBl0cwyn5GY

When everyone is talking about AI and Algorithmic Trading being the new frontier, I disagree. Humans have
skills that computers do not. We can connect to the Universal Consciousness and see into the future. Spiritual Trading, I think, is the new frontier in trading. But then, I'm just a Duck and I eat slugs. Quack!

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Trader Duck View Post
The attached picture shows a u-tube Ted Talk that discussed the Remote Viewing project done by the CIA in the 1980's. At this point in the video he told us that the group had looked into the future to see what silver futures were going to do and they placed some trades. The picture shows the successful results. Here is the link to the video ...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBl0cwyn5GY



When everyone is talking about AI and Algorithmic Trading being the new frontier, I disagree. Humans have

skills that computers do not. We can connect to the Universal Consciousness and see into the future. Spiritual Trading, I think, is the new frontier in trading. But then, I'm just a Duck and I eat slugs. Quack!



Wow, cool, awesome.... not at all what this humble thread is about.

I encourage you to start a thread about it though.

So what is this thread about?

Plain and simple this thread is about good old fashion hard work.

Training, Growth and Development. (TGD) Period the end.

This won’t be Fun central. Much closer to sweat central.

This thread will change over time. Not short amounts of time. Longer ones. Along the lines of the TGD.

Ron


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...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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In my view, to begin, there must be a foundation we can build upon. Some framework we can hang concepts on. If this topic is Practical Spiritual Trading, it’s the middle word here we need to focus on. The other two we all get.

As stated previously Spiritual relates to the Spirit. Great. What does that mean? We have probably all heard something like this before, “She was in good spirits today after her appointment.” meaning she felt happy, joyous or effervescent. “The children were in high spirits after hearing the news about the class trip from the principal.” These give us some clue that spirit somehow relates to intangibles.

It is said and I agree…. You are a spiritual being having a human experience.

In the womb we are all developing the tools we need for when we leave the womb. Eyes, lungs, legs etc. It turns out eyes are completely useless in a dark environment. The establishment of eyes is not for the womb. Same ideas apply to the lungs for example. They don’t work in a fluid filled environment. A great deal of energy is used growing limbs and organs. Just not for use in that tiny place. Only once we enter this great big world do these tools slowly reach their potential.

We can’t explain to the growing fetus how amazing, useful and important eyes will be once they start life in this plane of existence. Microscope. Telescope. Sunsets etc. There is just no capacity, yet, to comprehend this.

If for some reason a limb or organ did not develop adequately in the womb, once out, unfortunately a handicap is realized. My daughter is an example of this with a conditioned call arthrogryposis amyoplasia.

Body is to soul as lamp is to light. Body is to mind as tree is to fruit. Body is to rational soul as flame is to heat/light. Body is to mind as water flour salt is to bread. (sorry, I think I'm hungry lol) The soul a sun illuminating the body. The body a mirror reflecting the soul’s light and mental powers as rays shining out from its origin. The soul, mind or rational soul.

In my view, we have three very distinct parts to what comprises oneself. Body. Soul. Spirit. The soul, if you will, connects the body to the spirit. Like a bridge a path or link. Or maybe I should say, can, connect the two. The spirit being nonmaterial nonphysical and not something we can comprehend, yet.

All I’m able to know is I must develop spiritual limbs and organs in a parallel to the fetus growing in the womb and I can’t comprehend this, yet.

More later (it's late, I’m sleepy …lol)

Ron

...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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Anybody with me so far?

Any comments, ideas? Anything you want to say?



Ron

...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
Follow me on Twitter Visit my futures io Trade Journal Reply With Quote
 
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Quoting 
In my view, we have three very distinct parts to what comprises oneself. Body. Soul. Spirit. The soul, if you will, connects the body to the spirit. Like a bridge a path or link. Or maybe I should say, can, connect the two. The spirit being nonmaterial nonphysical and not something we can comprehend, yet.

I agree with you, not in these exacts words, maybe as physical bodies we are not capable of having all 360 view. But I do believe that for being good at anything, one needs a happy spirit, spirit here may not refer to soul but the state of mind.

You see, during my business masters one of the topics often discussed was entrepreneurship, its not just about having novel idea but its lot about you following your "spirit vision". In reality you know nothing of future but you still choose the path that you do. Most time it may not work out, but sometimes it does, here its just not about innovation or even having the vision its also about timing. Making it very apt topic to discuss in background of trading.

For me trading is of similar dynamics, you can be smartest person on this planet but if your spirit doesn't agree with you trading you wont make it. Trading is lot about being happy from within, that is also key to controlling your emotions like greed and fear. Outsiders may think you are working towards illusory goal but in reality in your head/spirit view you are very clear on what you are doing. Of course, triumph only comes to very few and many fail, and reasons can be kept aside for later analysis.

So to finish my mumble jumble here, spirit or state of mind is what we are really trying to address by discussing very complicated topic called "psychology", right now approach of psychology is finite, its designed to find answers in your past to decipher your actions today but in reality there is very large part of you that has nothing to do with your past, it has lot to do with your future or maybe core of your DNA memory (360 degrees), just like fetus in womb trying to develop limbs.

Okay, I'm getting little out of control and I might have offended lot of psychology majors, but its really not about that, remember what I said? As a physical bodies we are not always having the 360 view of the things. I've no clue if we will ever change, but if there was ever anyone deserving of title "enlightened being", would you not say its to the one who has this 360 degree vision? A happy spirit? A chaser of dreams or that illusory target?

/I think my brain is rebelling on me there and I should keep alcohol down on Friday evening if I plan to come on forum

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LastDino View Post
I agree with you, not in these exacts words, maybe as physical bodies we are not capable of having all 360 view. But I do believe that for being good at anything, one needs a happy spirit, spirit here may not refer to soul but the state of mind.

You see, during my business masters one of the topics often discussed was entrepreneurship, its not just about having novel idea but its lot about you following your "spirit vision". In reality you know nothing of future but you still choose the path that you do. Most time it may not work out, but sometimes it does, here its just not about innovation or even having the vision its also about timing. Making it very apt topic to discuss in background of trading.

For me trading is of similar dynamics, you can be smartest person on this planet but if your spirit doesn't agree with you trading you wont make it. Trading is lot about being happy from within, that is also key to controlling your emotions like greed and fear. Outsiders may think you are working towards illusory goal but in reality in your head/spirit view you are very clear on what you are doing. Of course, triumph only comes to very few and many fail, and reasons can be kept aside for later analysis.

So to finish my mumble jumble here, spirit or state of mind is what we are really trying to address by discussing very complicated topic called "psychology", right now approach of psychology is finite, its designed to find answers in your past to decipher your actions today but in reality there is very large part of you that has nothing to do with your past, it has lot to do with your future or maybe core of your DNA memory (360 degrees), just like fetus in womb trying to develop limbs.

Okay, I'm getting little out of control and I might have offended lot of psychology majors, but its really not about that, remember what I said? As a physical bodies we are not always having the 360 view of the things. I've no clue if we will ever change, but if there was ever anyone deserving of title "enlightened being", would you not say its to the one who has this 360 degree vision? A happy spirit? A chaser of dreams or that illusory target?

/I think my brain is rebelling on me there and I should keep alcohol down on Friday evening if I plan to come on forum

I'm glad you decided to participate in the discussion even though, as your title reads
LastDino View Post
I didn't think I would type this

Sounds like you took a chance, a risk typing this, and I think there are some real nuggets here for us.

I like your 360-degree view reference. To me it speaks of us trying to remove or fight through the veils, clouds, blocks or prejudices we all have that limit ourselves, our perceptions. I would say and agree with you that someone who has a 360° view of things, meaning to me, someone free of all prejudices and able to see all things clearly that yes, they would be an enlightened being.

I think in trading it's important to be able to open yourself up to possibilities new ways to perceive the market data/info coming at us all the time. Filtering it as well. Like your 360-degree view. I think it's a journey not a destination. And yeah we don't know the future. Everything is probable to some degree.


LastDino View Post
As a physical bodies we are not always having the 360 view of the things. I've no clue if we will ever change, but if there was ever anyone deserving of title "enlightened being", would you not say its to the one who has this 360 degree vision? A happy spirit? A chaser of dreams or that illusory target?

Happiness, I would say, is definitely something closely linked to trading. If you aren't in a good way chances are your trading will be in the toilet.

Having a Happy spirit, as you mentioned, will appear again in this thread.


LastDino View Post
Trading is lot about being happy from within

Ron

...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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Blash View Post
I'm glad you decided to participate in the discussion even though, as your title reads

Sounds like you took a chance, a risk typing this, and I think there are some real nuggets here for us.

Haha, please forgive me if it came across like that, it was more so in my head and it sounded lot like me going crazy. I was also inebriated, I even spelled "grammar" wrong in my correction note of the post, so I urge you to not read too much into it.


Blash View Post
I'm glad you decided to participate in the discussion even though, as your title reads
I like your 360-degree view reference. To me it speaks of us trying to remove or fight through the veils, clouds, blocks or prejudices we all have that limit ourselves, our perceptions. I would say and agree with you that someone who has a 360° view of things, meaning to me, someone free of all prejudices and able to see all things clearly that yes, they would be an enlightened being.

Couldn't have put it in better words myself, you explained it right there. What enabled humans to survive till the time we do is not because we were better savages or very able hunters, its because we had greater spiritual abilities which told our ancestors to survive by cooperating. Its not that other lifeforms can't do it, take dolphins for example, elephants, chimps and even birds who are by birth aware of migration path which they have to take every year, even the salmon fish that travel upstream across rivers in time of fertility, fatal but they still do it.

Its that DNA memory, a spiritual mind in a sense that is like constant working computer that enables us to better survive by running millions of algorithms in its own capacity till there is success. We are all by design made to success by this spiritual computer. Of course, some algos go out of fashion over period of time, or there are now just better designs out there with higher success rate. Or you can also attribute it to nature having spiritual computer of its own, running its course of constantly eliminating what is not working and keeping what is working, we call it evolution and extinction science. Non scientific ppl call it magic of god, but at the heart of it, if you consider it with more 360 view and look at it from more neutral point, its just large spiritual body, guiding entire physical world to its goal of succeeding survival.


Doesn't always happen, but then again, not all algos work and sometimes physical body also rebels. Which is again within spirits expectation and its way of gathering more data on the ongoing research and experiments for future experiment. Its a constant process, till its not. Its a cycle of Birth-Life-Death-Rebirth, a more improved version this time.


Blash View Post
I think in trading it's important to be able to open yourself up to possibilities new ways to perceive the market data/info coming at us all the time. Filtering it as well. Like your 360-degree view. I think it's a journey not a destination. And yeah we don't know the future. Everything is probable to some degree.

Yes, exactly, if you were not able to enjoy the journey itself, its indication of being on wrong path and being unhappy is one of the side effects of it

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Hello, long time lurker and first time poster!

Figured I would weigh in on this topic. Apologies in advance if I am repeating what was on the webinar, as I haven't upgraded to elite yet, but I wanted to share some things that I have been doing throughout my trading career in hopes of contributing to this discussion that have been both helpful in daily life outside of trading and immensely helpful in becoming profitable.

For me, the spiritual side of trading involves visualization and meditation. Not necessarily to connect with a higher spiritual self or the like, but you find in all professional areas of sport or upper business that these successful people either knowingly or unknowingly connect with their universal consciousness to bring about their desired outcome in life. Either a basketball player training to visualize every shot going into the basket as they take it or a would-be CEO envisioning themselves at the top, both practice the same techniques although in vastly different professions. Thoughts are energy, every result is at the end of where that energy has been going for some time.

Meditation on the other hand draws the emotion out of the mind, making it easier to make decisions and think clear, and also to dive into ourselves to analyze our subconscious thoughts. It's crucial especially in a beginners career to identify the mind throwing out negative thoughts such as "I can't do this" or "I don't deserve to make this much money" or even emotions such as greed or lust for what a profitable career can bring. The subconscious can bring about fame or ruin just as easily as the other. Letting go of the ego was easily one of the most important parts of my career.

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BullandBear19 View Post
Hello, long time lurker and first time poster!

Figured I would weigh in on this topic. Apologies in advance if I am repeating what was on the webinar, as I haven't upgraded to elite yet, but I wanted to share some things that I have been doing throughout my trading career in hopes of contributing to this discussion that have been both helpful in daily life outside of trading and immensely helpful in becoming profitable.

For me, the spiritual side of trading involves visualization and meditation. Not necessarily to connect with a higher spiritual self or the like, but you find in all professional areas of sport or upper business that these successful people either knowingly or unknowingly connect with their universal consciousness to bring about their desired outcome in life. Either a basketball player training to visualize every shot going into the basket as they take it or a would-be CEO envisioning themselves at the top, both practice the same techniques although in vastly different professions. Thoughts are energy, every result is at the end of where that energy has been going for some time.

Meditation on the other hand draws the emotion out of the mind, making it easier to make decisions and think clear, and also to dive into ourselves to analyze our subconscious thoughts. It's crucial especially in a beginners career to identify the mind throwing out negative thoughts such as "I can't do this" or "I don't deserve to make this much money" or even emotions such as greed or lust for what a profitable career can bring. The subconscious can bring about fame or ruin just as easily as the other. Letting go of the ego was easily one of the most important parts of my career.

Glab to see you started posting here at FIO. Don't ever stop. Thanks for contributing.

That's all I have time for, for now. Sorry.

More later.

Ron

...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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Just a quick observation... since starting my personal trading journey, I've noticed that I am much more in tune with my spirituality, in both trading and life.

It might have something to do with the fact that I'm getting ready to turn 50 as well but... like I said, a quick observation

Great topic. Looking forward to chiming in when I have something to offer

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Rrrracer View Post
Just a quick observation... since starting my personal trading journey, I've noticed that I am much more in tune with my spirituality, in both trading and life.



It might have something to do with the fact that I'm getting ready to turn 50 as well but... like I said, a quick observation



Great topic. Looking forward to chiming in when I have something to offer



I’m looking forward to your posts as well bro.

As soon as I get this project done, remaking my under deck storage doors to a wider opening. 80 inches from 60.

I will be post more.

I had 57.5 inch clearance with 60 so I will probably have 2.5 inches less with 80 as well. Hustler ZTR with the catcher can’t make in those old doors. Made one door today and currently standing in Menards to buy quarter round trim to finish off the doors.

Ron


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...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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I love projects like that Got plenty of them to do around here, but no time at the moment. Saw you recently upgraded your toy, glad you are enjoying it, hope you're ready for winter!

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Rrrracer View Post
Just a quick observation... since starting my personal trading journey, I've noticed that I am much more in tune with my spirituality, in both trading and life.

It might have something to do with the fact that I'm getting ready to turn 50 as well but... like I said, a quick observation

Great topic. Looking forward to chiming in when I have something to offer

Same, trading or trading like activity can do that to ppl, it gives you up close encounter with lot of things you otherwise won't have, its like going to war, a financial one. At first you are enthusiastic, you think you will the bomb and best gift to humanity from god, but then market puts you in your place. In most cruel ways, its quite unraveling tbh. Trading can also give rise to your need to have other hobbies/stress relief activities. Meditation certainly helps, for me trekking or going on long walks.

Everyone finds their way to spirituality once you experience life like that.

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Market Chamois
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I found these two posts below and wanted to talk about them at a later date, so I'm placing them here.

I'm still doing a bunch of work outside that I need to get done so zero time now. Eating breakfast and typing at the same time, currently.

I will post about my project in my old journal once I'm done.

Ron



Fxfutures1976 View Post
First of all , you need to be very passionate and obsessive with your goal to be a constantly profitable Trader.

Trading will also be more suited to the naturally patient and disciplined and those that are not afraid to take risks. If you can afford to lose money, If that sounds like you, then give yourself at least 3 years , with no guarantees and start very basic.

Trade micro lots, only after you have gained some consistency on the sim.

There is no doubt that the vast majority of people that are consistently profitable have worked their ass off for many years with desperate times of struggling to be consistent.

With all due respect, I would not disclose the fine details of my methods and what works for me because I worked so hard to get where I am and it was brutal.

I can tell you that I had not much patience , which was a disadvantage, but I have huge drive to succeed, discipline and totally obsessed with Trading.

Do not buy any course or learn to trade crap as the people who are hosting those types of courses will NOT be able to teach you as they are most definitely not profitable them selves.

Good luck.


Lavrans View Post
Hey!

Yhea I will say that I'm pretty patient and disiplined, and definetively not afraid to take risks.
Im usually very obsessibe about everything that can earn money, maby sometimes too much.
I have had some companies in the past and have felt burned out in peroids.

Yes I have installed the ninja sim now and I am watching Damian Castilla's videos on youtube while Im practicing.

I understand very well that you won't disclose your methods my friend
But can you please explain your road to being profitable?
Like what books/information should I read, how much should be practicing, what should I focus most on etc etc?

Wish you all the best!


...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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Sorry about the lack of attention to this thread. Super busy as of late. Wife on business trips.

Rest assured there is a lot more to come, guaranteed.

Ron

...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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Some fun watch, posting here since I was reminded of this thread and discussion I had.





Mean nothing special by it, nor do I promote it, just good to hear these kind of ideas/thoughts

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How do we acquire virtues?



Ron


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...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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How can we?



Ron


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...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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Sorry for the slow going of this thread.

Been gathering data.

And had a lot of “stuff” happen around here.

Ron


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...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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How do we know if we are?

Perhaps one way is if someone tells you you have this of that quality......For example, another soul states: "That's very generous of you."


Blash View Post
How do we acquire virtues?

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Ron


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How can we?

Attachment 282525

Ron


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...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
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Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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Is Humility a trait we as traders need?



Ron


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...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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Either way.......Why?



Ron


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...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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Blash, when you win, someone loses. You cannot win in trading without taking what could potentially be food out of someone else's mouth. Can you explain the spirituality in that?

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Ferritin View Post
Blash, when you win, someone loses. You cannot win in trading without taking what could potentially be food out of someone else's mouth. Can you explain the spirituality in that?

True that, but, what if majority of that money came from hedge funds where they might not even care about losing a few hundreds a day? What if?

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Ferritin View Post
Blash, when you win, someone loses. You cannot win in trading without taking what could potentially be food out of someone else's mouth. Can you explain the spirituality in that?

As Ed Seykota noted, everyone gets what they want out of the market. Many people trade for excitement and other reasons. They may lose money, but gain many other things that they want.

"The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven." - Milton
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Blash View Post
How do we acquire virtues?

By being them.

And if we are not there yet, that's ok too, because we eventually become what we play-act.

"The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven." - Milton
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Why do Professional Poker players like Erik Seidel, Johnny Chan, Phil Hellmuth and Annie Duke (retired), to name a few, fold 80% of the time?

Ron

...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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Ferritin View Post
Blash, when you win, someone loses. You cannot win in trading without taking what could potentially be food out of someone else's mouth. Can you explain the spirituality in that?



This is not necessarily true. It is quite possible for both traders to be winners if they are trading different timeframes.


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Ferritin View Post
Blash, when you win, someone loses. You cannot win in trading without taking what could potentially be food out of someone else's mouth. Can you explain the spirituality in that?



Yes, and at some point I will.

Ron


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...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
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In spiritual path there is inbuilt system to guide physical bodies. There is reward for being right and punishment or lesson for being wrong. Its an old fashion carrot and stick approach, point of saying this is that spirituality will have its ways on all sides, if you must call it something a mechanism for fail safe would be apt.

People mistake spirituality for praying or being religious but in reality its more in line with performing tasks given by it, for example, its parents job to feed the child, nurture it and enable them to be parents in next generation. Its lions job to control large herbivorous and its herbivorous job to control overgrown weed. Spiritual path is path of nature, ones you widen your lenses you will be one with it and truly be enlightened, actually it wont be wrong to even say there is no such a thing as god, but if there is, its nothing but this "spiritual way of nature".

Having said that, there will always be bodies acting on emotions like greed or malevolence and spirituality will need fail safe to contain them or guide them back on right path. Right path here is not "morally right or wrong", its "intended job by natures spiritual computer".

A greedy person entering speculative markets without doing its proper spiritual due diligence will be thought lesson by someone whose spiritual way is to master the market and profit is his reward from natural spiritual order. Similarly loss is lesson for the greedy person and warning to do his due diligence.

They go hand in hand, you can play the system for only so much time, also you can't always assume you will be rewarded if you are not always doing your spiritual due diligence. And hence cycle of losing-winning-losing-winning ......spirituality has its ways and its a neutral force geared towards optimizing outputs from physical bodies.

Your work is your spirituality and Its all stick and carrot system, just my 2c.

Don't take me too seriously, I'm usually on rambling sessions after coffee.

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12VMan View Post
This is not necessarily true. It is quite possible for both traders to be winners if they are trading different timeframes.


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Can you show a concrete example demonstrating this for the futures market?

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kevinkdog View Post
Can you show a concrete example demonstrating this for the futures market?

Sure, pull up ESH1. Let's say Trader A is a short term swing trader who went long 1 contract based on some type of entry signal on the 60M timeframe on January 6th around 10a ET at the price of 3704. Their exit signal triggers on January 8th around 1:30p at the price of 3780. So they sold 3780 at 1:30p on January 8th for a profit of 76 points.

Trader B is a short timeframe intraday trader. He gets a signal on a 5M chart to go short 1 contract of ES on January 8th around 10a at the price of 3800. Their exit signal triggers on January 8th around 1:30p at the price of 3780. So they bought 1 ES contract to cover their short at 1:30p on January 8th for a profit of 20 points.

Both traders made money at 1:30p trading 1 ES contract while one was buying a contract and the other was selling.

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12VMan View Post
Sure, pull up ESH1. Let's say Trader A is a short term swing trader who went long 1 contract based on some type of entry signal on the 60M timeframe on January 6th around 10a ET at the price of 3704. Their exit signal triggers on January 8th around 1:30p at the price of 3780. So they sold 3780 at 1:30p on January 8th for a profit of 76 points.

Trader B is a short timeframe intraday trader. He gets a signal on a 5M chart to go short 1 contract of ES on January 8th around 10a at the price of 3800. Their exit signal triggers on January 8th around 1:30p at the price of 3780. So they bought 1 ES contract to cover their short at 1:30p on January 8th for a profit of 20 points.

Both traders made money at 1:30p trading 1 ES contract while one was buying a contract and the other was selling.

If I understand it well...

Trader A = Long on Jan 6th at 10 AM, exit Jan 8th at 1:30 PM >> profit of 76 points
Trader B = short on Jan 8th at 10 AM, exit Jan 8th at 1:30 PM >> profit of 20 points

That makes sense to me, both trader made money on their trades.


BUT

What about the trader or traders who were short from Jan 6th at 10 AM (at 3704) and who went long at 10 AM Jan 8th? (at 3800) They would have lost 96 points.

There had to be someone holding the opposite side of the contract from Jan 6th at 10 AM to Jan 8th at 10 AM. Do you agree?

So, you add up all 3 participants, and the net is zero.

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kevinkdog View Post
If I understand it well...

Trader A = Long on Jan 6th at 10 AM, exit Jan 8th at 1:30 PM >> profit of 76 points
Trader B = short on Jan 8th at 10 AM, exit Jan 8th at 1:30 PM >> profit of 20 points

That makes sense to me, both trader made money on their trades.


BUT

What about the trader or traders who were short from Jan 6th at 10 AM (at 3704) and who went long at 10 AM Jan 8th? (at 3800) They would have lost 96 points.

There had to be someone holding the opposite side of the contract from Jan 6th at 10 AM to Jan 8th at 10 AM. Do you agree?

So, you add up all 3 participants, and the net is zero.


I think we are starting to get away from the original premise which was if I am making money in a trade, the trader on the other end of my profit making transaction must be losing. That is simply not true.

But if you want to continue down the rabbit hole, who is to say the supposed 3rd trader on January 6th is the same trader who was counterparty to the exit on the 8th? They could have exited their trade at any other time. Heck, they could have also made money depending on what timeframe they were trading.

ETA: I think what you are getting at is trading futures is ultimately a zero sum game. Of course that is true across all trades. But that does not mean it applies to any individual trade. There are people who struggle with trading because they feel like if they are making money, the person on the other side is losing money. My point in bringing all of this up is that a) it is a non-useful belief if you want to be a successful trader (imo, of course) and b) it's not always true so the belief is wrong in the first place. So, get rid of the belief, enjoy your profits and don't feel like you have personally hurt anyone.

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12VMan View Post
I think we are starting to get away from the original premise which was if I am making money in a trade, the trader on the other end of my profit making transaction must be losing. That is simply not true.

But if you want to continue down the rabbit hole, who is to say the supposed 3rd trader on January 6th is the same trader who was counterparty to the exit on the 8th? They could have exited their trade at any other time. Heck, they could have also made money depending on what timeframe they were trading.

I see where your confusion is - you are trying to add up results over different periods of times. You can't do that.

So, then how about you just look at the same time both A & B held opposite sides of the contract.

From January 8th from 10 AM to 1:30 PM, using your example:

Trader A = long on Jan 8th at 10 AM, exit Jan 8th at 1:30 PM >> loss of 20 points
Trader B = short on Jan 8th at 10 AM, exit Jan 8th at 1:30 PM >> profit of 20 points


One person lost, one person gained in that 2.5 hour time period. It nets to zero, there cannot be any other answer (unless money is created out of thin air).

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kevinkdog View Post
I see where your confusion is - you are trying to add up results over different periods of times. You can't do that.

Why can't I? You have no idea what timeframe the person on the opposite side of your trade is trading from.

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12VMan View Post
Why can't I? You have no idea what timeframe the person on the opposite side of your trade is trading from.


I'll try one more time to explain, obviously I am not explaining myself well enough.

Take the Dec 2020 ES contract. It started trading 9/18/2019 at 2979. It ended trading 12/18/2020 at 3728.

This contract had millions of buyers and sellers during this period of time, trading all manner of timeframes, durations, etc.

Yet, at the end of it all, if you were to add up the profits/losses from all the long positions, and subtract all the profit/losses from all the short positions, you'd net to zero. In other words, a zero sum game.

There will be people who were long at some point who made money, and there will be other who were short at some point and made money. And vice versa. But the sum is still zero.

Do you agree with this, or not?


(Note in stocks this is not true, because stocks are a wealth creation device. Futures are a wealth transfer device).

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kevinkdog View Post
I'll try one more time to explain, obviously I am not explaining myself well enough.

Take the Dec 2020 ES contract. It started trading 9/18/2019 at 2979. It ended trading 12/18/2020 at 3728.

This contract had millions of buyers and sellers during this period of time, trading all manner of timeframes, durations, etc.

Yet, at the end of it all, if you were to add up the profits/losses from all the long positions, and subtract all the profit/losses from all the short positions, you'd net to zero. In other words, a zero sum game.

There will be people who were long at some point who made money, and there will be other who were short at some point and made money. And vice versa. But the sum is still zero.

Do you agree with this, or not?


(Note in stocks this is not true, because stocks are a wealth creation device. Futures are a wealth transfer device).


I think you've already agreed my example is valid and I've already agreed that the market as a whole is a zero sum game. So, I'm honestly not sure what we are debating?

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12VMan View Post
I think you've already agreed my example is valid and I've already agreed that the market as a whole is a zero sum game. So, I'm honestly not sure what we are debating?

You weren't initially agreeing with the zero sum idea, you edited that in later.

But don't kid yourself - every dollar you make in futures absolutely comes out of someone else's pocket. That is the only way it can be.

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kevinkdog View Post
You weren't initially agreeing with the zero sum idea, you edited that in later.

But don't kid yourself - every dollar you make in futures absolutely comes out of someone else's pocket. That is the only way it can be.

I never disagreed with it - it wasn’t ever part of my premise. I only edited my post when I realized that is what you were referencing. My comments were only about the other side of a person’s trade. Glad we’re on the same page now.

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12VMan View Post
I never disagreed with it - it wasn’t ever part of my premise. I only edited my post when I realized that is what you were referencing. My comments were only about the other side of a person’s trade. Glad we’re on the same page now.

As long as you believe your earlier statement "I think we are starting to get away from the original premise which was if I am making money in a trade, the trader on the other end of my profit making transaction must be losing. That is simply not true."

we will never agree on this. Sorry.

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kevinkdog View Post
As long as you believe your earlier statement "I think we are starting to get away from the original premise which was if I am making money in a trade, the trader on the other end of my profit making transaction must be losing. That is simply not true."

we will never agree on this. Sorry.

I am not sure how you can agree the scenario I presented is valid, i.e. both traders made money, and not agree with what you just quoted. C'est la vie, all good with me either way. I appreciate the dialogue and we can just drop it.

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12VMan View Post
I am not sure how you can agree the scenario I presented is valid, i.e. both traders made money, and not agree with what you just quoted. C'est la vie, all good with me either way. I appreciate the dialogue and we can just drop it.

I agree both Traders A and B could make money, but your example is incomplete, and misses a whole section of the overall picture:

Your example:

Trader A = Long on Jan 6th at 10 AM, exit Jan 8th at 1:30 PM >> profit of 76 points
Trader B = short on Jan 8th at 10 AM, exit Jan 8th at 1:30 PM >> profit of 20 points


Look at what happened during the time when BOTH traders held opposite positions, from 10 AM to 130 PM

Trader A Long - lost 20 points
Trader B Short - gained 20 points

That is zero sum


What happened before Trader B entered the market?

Trader A made 96 points by being long from Jan 6th at 10 Am to Jan 8th at 10 AM. Someone else (or maybe multiple people, who knows) held the short side, and all together during that time the short side lost 96 points. The holder of that short is Trader C, who you left out of your example. Again the net is zero. Again zero sum.


So, your example:

Trader A: gained 76 points
Trader B: gained 20 points
Trader C (or multiple Traders C): (whom you left out of your example, but nevertheless was present on the short side for part of this event): lost 96 points

Zero sum.

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kevinkdog View Post
I agree both Traders A and B could make money, but your example is incomplete, and misses a whole section of the overall picture:

Your example:

Trader A = Long on Jan 6th at 10 AM, exit Jan 8th at 1:30 PM >> profit of 76 points
Trader B = short on Jan 8th at 10 AM, exit Jan 8th at 1:30 PM >> profit of 20 points


Look at what happened during the time when BOTH traders held opposite positions, from 10 AM to 130 PM

Trader A Long - lost 20 points
Trader B Short - gained 20 points

That is zero sum


What happened before Trader B entered the market?

Trader A made 96 points by being long from Jan 6th at 10 Am to Jan 8th at 10 AM. Someone else (or maybe multiple people, who knows) held the short side, and all together during that time the short side lost 96 points. The holder of that short is Trader C, who you left out of your example. Again the net is zero. Again zero sum.


So, your example:

Trader A: gained 76 points
Trader B: gained 20 points
Trader C (or multiple Traders C): (whom you left out of your example, but nevertheless was present on the short side for part of this event): lost 96 points

Zero sum.

And I agree with all of that. The comment I was originally commenting on was "when you win, someone loses. You cannot win in trading without taking what could potentially be food out of someone else's mouth." In the scope of that profitable transaction, the trader on the opposite side of it could also be profitable. You agreed with that as well. That was my only point (and also trying to help people in the process, i.e. those who have guilt about making money from trading).

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12VMan View Post
And I agree with all of that. The comment I was originally commenting on was "when you win, someone loses. You cannot win in trading without taking what could potentially be food out of someone else's mouth." In the scope of that profitable transaction, the trader on the opposite side of it could also be profitable. You agreed with that as well. That was my only point (and also trying to help people in the process, i.e. those who have guilt about making money from trading).

But every dollar you make trading futures DOES take a dollar out of someone else's pocket. That is the nature of the game.

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kevinkdog View Post
But every dollar you make trading futures DOES take a dollar out of someone else's pocket. That is the nature of the game.

But it did not take a dollar out of the person on the other side of the transaction's pocket. Again, my only point.

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12VMan View Post
But it did not take a dollar out of the person on the other side of the transaction's pocket. Again, my only point.


That is incorrect.

Every dollar Trader B made came out of Trader A's pocket. Look at what happened:

Trader A was up 96 points as of Jan 8th at 10 AM. If he had exited then, he'd have 96 points in his pocket. But he stayed in trade.
At 130 PM on January 8th, Trader A was up only 76 points, when he exited his trade.
20 points came out of Trader's A pocket between 10 AM and 130 PM. (Trader A became poorer by 20 points during this time. It was open profit he lost, but he still lost that amount).

The money left the pocket of Trader A and went into the pocket of Trader B.

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kevinkdog View Post
That is incorrect.

Every dollar Trader B made came out of Trader A's pocket. Look at what happened:

Trader A was up 96 points as of Jan 8th at 10 AM. If he had exited then, he'd have 96 points in his pocket. But he stayed in trade.
At 130 PM on January 8th, Trader A was up only 76 points, when he exited his trade.
20 points came out of Trader's A pocket between 10 AM and 130 PM. (Trader A became poorer by 20 points during this time. It was open profit he lost, but he still lost that amount).

The money left the pocket of Trader A and went into the pocket of Trader B.

Did both traders exit their trade with profits? Yes. Perhaps that is what I should have said - it is possible for traders on both sides of a trade to be profitable. It is also possible for traders on both sides of a trade to lose money on their trades. That is all I am trying to point out.

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12VMan View Post
Did both traders exit their trade with profits? Yes. Perhaps that is what I should have said - it is possible for traders on both sides of a trade to be profitable. It is also possible for traders on both sides of a trade to lose money on their trades. That is all I am trying to point out.

OK, but remember you were trying to refute this statement:

"when you win, someone loses. You cannot win in trading without taking what could potentially be food out of someone else's mouth. "

That is exactly how futures works - transferring wealth between parties.

I think we've beaten this horse enough, sorry to all for this.

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kevinkdog View Post
OK, but remember you were trying to refute this statement:

"when you win, someone loses. You cannot win in trading without taking what could potentially be food out of someone else's mouth. "

That is exactly how futures works - transferring wealth between parties.

I think we've beaten this horse enough, sorry to all for this.

As with everything in trading (and most everything else) context matters. We are both correct for our respective contexts in this discussion.

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