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Practical Spiritual Trading


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Practical Spiritual Trading

 
 
Blash's Avatar
 Blash 
Chicago, IL
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Why do Professional Poker players like Erik Seidel, Johnny Chan, Phil Hellmuth and Annie Duke (retired), to name a few, fold 80% of the time?

Ron

...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
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 12VMan 
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Ferritin View Post
Blash, when you win, someone loses. You cannot win in trading without taking what could potentially be food out of someone else's mouth. Can you explain the spirituality in that?



This is not necessarily true. It is quite possible for both traders to be winners if they are trading different timeframes.


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 Blash 
Chicago, IL
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Ferritin View Post
Blash, when you win, someone loses. You cannot win in trading without taking what could potentially be food out of someone else's mouth. Can you explain the spirituality in that?



Yes, and at some point I will.

Ron


Sent from my iPhone using futures.io

...My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy...
The steed of this Valley is pain; and if there be no pain this journey will never end.
Buy Low And Sell High (read left to right or right to left....lol)
Follow me on Twitter Visit my NexusFi Trade Journal Started this thread
 
 
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 AllSeeker 
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In spiritual path there is inbuilt system to guide physical bodies. There is reward for being right and punishment or lesson for being wrong. Its an old fashion carrot and stick approach, point of saying this is that spirituality will have its ways on all sides, if you must call it something a mechanism for fail safe would be apt.

People mistake spirituality for praying or being religious but in reality its more in line with performing tasks given by it, for example, its parents job to feed the child, nurture it and enable them to be parents in next generation. Its lions job to control large herbivorous and its herbivorous job to control overgrown weed. Spiritual path is path of nature, ones you widen your lenses you will be one with it and truly be enlightened, actually it wont be wrong to even say there is no such a thing as god, but if there is, its nothing but this "spiritual way of nature".

Having said that, there will always be bodies acting on emotions like greed or malevolence and spirituality will need fail safe to contain them or guide them back on right path. Right path here is not "morally right or wrong", its "intended job by natures spiritual computer".

A greedy person entering speculative markets without doing its proper spiritual due diligence will be thought lesson by someone whose spiritual way is to master the market and profit is his reward from natural spiritual order. Similarly loss is lesson for the greedy person and warning to do his due diligence.

They go hand in hand, you can play the system for only so much time, also you can't always assume you will be rewarded if you are not always doing your spiritual due diligence. And hence cycle of losing-winning-losing-winning ......spirituality has its ways and its a neutral force geared towards optimizing outputs from physical bodies.

Your work is your spirituality and Its all stick and carrot system, just my 2c.

Don't take me too seriously, I'm usually on rambling sessions after coffee.

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 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
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12VMan View Post
This is not necessarily true. It is quite possible for both traders to be winners if they are trading different timeframes.


Sent from my iPhone using futures.io futures trading

Can you show a concrete example demonstrating this for the futures market?

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 12VMan 
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kevinkdog View Post
Can you show a concrete example demonstrating this for the futures market?

Sure, pull up ESH1. Let's say Trader A is a short term swing trader who went long 1 contract based on some type of entry signal on the 60M timeframe on January 6th around 10a ET at the price of 3704. Their exit signal triggers on January 8th around 1:30p at the price of 3780. So they sold 3780 at 1:30p on January 8th for a profit of 76 points.

Trader B is a short timeframe intraday trader. He gets a signal on a 5M chart to go short 1 contract of ES on January 8th around 10a at the price of 3800. Their exit signal triggers on January 8th around 1:30p at the price of 3780. So they bought 1 ES contract to cover their short at 1:30p on January 8th for a profit of 20 points.

Both traders made money at 1:30p trading 1 ES contract while one was buying a contract and the other was selling.

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12VMan View Post
Sure, pull up ESH1. Let's say Trader A is a short term swing trader who went long 1 contract based on some type of entry signal on the 60M timeframe on January 6th around 10a ET at the price of 3704. Their exit signal triggers on January 8th around 1:30p at the price of 3780. So they sold 3780 at 1:30p on January 8th for a profit of 76 points.

Trader B is a short timeframe intraday trader. He gets a signal on a 5M chart to go short 1 contract of ES on January 8th around 10a at the price of 3800. Their exit signal triggers on January 8th around 1:30p at the price of 3780. So they bought 1 ES contract to cover their short at 1:30p on January 8th for a profit of 20 points.

Both traders made money at 1:30p trading 1 ES contract while one was buying a contract and the other was selling.

If I understand it well...

Trader A = Long on Jan 6th at 10 AM, exit Jan 8th at 1:30 PM >> profit of 76 points
Trader B = short on Jan 8th at 10 AM, exit Jan 8th at 1:30 PM >> profit of 20 points

That makes sense to me, both trader made money on their trades.


BUT

What about the trader or traders who were short from Jan 6th at 10 AM (at 3704) and who went long at 10 AM Jan 8th? (at 3800) They would have lost 96 points.

There had to be someone holding the opposite side of the contract from Jan 6th at 10 AM to Jan 8th at 10 AM. Do you agree?

So, you add up all 3 participants, and the net is zero.

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 12VMan 
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kevinkdog View Post
If I understand it well...

Trader A = Long on Jan 6th at 10 AM, exit Jan 8th at 1:30 PM >> profit of 76 points
Trader B = short on Jan 8th at 10 AM, exit Jan 8th at 1:30 PM >> profit of 20 points

That makes sense to me, both trader made money on their trades.


BUT

What about the trader or traders who were short from Jan 6th at 10 AM (at 3704) and who went long at 10 AM Jan 8th? (at 3800) They would have lost 96 points.

There had to be someone holding the opposite side of the contract from Jan 6th at 10 AM to Jan 8th at 10 AM. Do you agree?

So, you add up all 3 participants, and the net is zero.


I think we are starting to get away from the original premise which was if I am making money in a trade, the trader on the other end of my profit making transaction must be losing. That is simply not true.

But if you want to continue down the rabbit hole, who is to say the supposed 3rd trader on January 6th is the same trader who was counterparty to the exit on the 8th? They could have exited their trade at any other time. Heck, they could have also made money depending on what timeframe they were trading.

ETA: I think what you are getting at is trading futures is ultimately a zero sum game. Of course that is true across all trades. But that does not mean it applies to any individual trade. There are people who struggle with trading because they feel like if they are making money, the person on the other side is losing money. My point in bringing all of this up is that a) it is a non-useful belief if you want to be a successful trader (imo, of course) and b) it's not always true so the belief is wrong in the first place. So, get rid of the belief, enjoy your profits and don't feel like you have personally hurt anyone.

 
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12VMan View Post
I think we are starting to get away from the original premise which was if I am making money in a trade, the trader on the other end of my profit making transaction must be losing. That is simply not true.

But if you want to continue down the rabbit hole, who is to say the supposed 3rd trader on January 6th is the same trader who was counterparty to the exit on the 8th? They could have exited their trade at any other time. Heck, they could have also made money depending on what timeframe they were trading.

I see where your confusion is - you are trying to add up results over different periods of times. You can't do that.

So, then how about you just look at the same time both A & B held opposite sides of the contract.

From January 8th from 10 AM to 1:30 PM, using your example:

Trader A = long on Jan 8th at 10 AM, exit Jan 8th at 1:30 PM >> loss of 20 points
Trader B = short on Jan 8th at 10 AM, exit Jan 8th at 1:30 PM >> profit of 20 points


One person lost, one person gained in that 2.5 hour time period. It nets to zero, there cannot be any other answer (unless money is created out of thin air).

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 12VMan 
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kevinkdog View Post
I see where your confusion is - you are trying to add up results over different periods of times. You can't do that.

Why can't I? You have no idea what timeframe the person on the opposite side of your trade is trading from.


 



Last Updated on January 10, 2021


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