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Psychological barrier to pass a certain point / tantalization
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Psychological barrier to pass a certain point / tantalization

  #21 (permalink)
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tpredictor View Post
It is also possible this is caused by some internal conflict. The conflict could be from a few sources. Below are all the reasons I can think of that is your trouble:

(1) You really like to trade. Hitting the round number might mean there won't be a need to trade. So, in order to keep trading, you must lose. One solution is to number your goals, instead of the bronze, silver, gold system. You might use an ordinal basis such G1, G2, G3, G4, G5, G6, G7, G8, etc. Where G can stand for goal or gold.. now what you can do is write down on a G10 a level that is so far off that you'll be financially set when you hit it. Focus on that goal.

(2) Something is unfulfilling about trading for you. You're not living a balanced life. So, your brain is saying "stop trading and do something else" but you won't listen. In order to get you to quit trading, it reaches your goal target. But then you don't stop. So, it treats the scenario like a binary option: either take your account to goal state or to zero. Whatever it takes to get you to stop trading. In this case, living a more balanced life, taking more breaks, should help you.

(3) You start to focus on your goal when you get close too it. Because you are focusing on the goal, you aren't focused on the market. You're not doing the things that led you to get to the target. Again, using a gaming system where you focus on getting to level 100 or whatever might help. Every 10k is just 1 level up.

(4) Your "edge" has a tendency to have serial correlation in wins and losses built in. You are able to get close to the goal because you recognize when your edge is working and you push it. However, the serial correlation of wins eventually leads to the run stretch of losses. Your problem is due to the mathematical nature of the edge/markets. You should start to focus on new edges or expanding out if this is the problem.

(5) Your edge isn't really that significant. You manage to get to your goal state by pushing your luck. Doubling down or ignoring your stop loss. Pushing certain trades. It can work for a little while but eventually the good luck runs out. If this is the case, you need to focus on systematizing your trading.

(6) You have a problem with the trade sizing. If that's the case, just keep your size the same or gradually increase it.

Hi tpredictor,

Thanks very much for your feedback. Yes, it's definitely caused by an internal conflict. It's a psychological issue. I've elaborated on that in my other posts. It's quite a lot of reasons that you mention here. Here are my thoughts on them:

1) Yes, I used to like to trade. I was even obsessed by it. Lately, however, I feel a bit reluctant to trade. It's almost the same feeling that I got when I had a fulltime job which I was done with. So, I reduced my trading times to only a morning and an afternoon session and this works well. I don't agree with you here to focus on a goal, even if it's a small one. I'm convinced I should focus on the process alone. Yes there needs to be a goal, but this only needs to be there to give a signal when to stop trading (profit target, max loss per day/session/trade). But when trading I should really forget about goals.
2) Yes, something is unfulfilling about trading. And that is that I keep on almost hitting the milestones, but every time I experience a setback. This makes the unfulfilment even stronger. I'll say it again, I should forget about the milestone altogether and focus on the trading every time when trading. Just be in the moment. I can look up the milestones and get excited about it when I'm not trading/doing my paperwork. I've wrote about this in the other posts too.
3) Yes, I start to focus on the goal when I get to close to it. But unconsciously. Again and again. This was the reason why I started this thread. So again the solution is to forget about goals altogether! Just focus on process, process, process.
4) I'm not familiar with the concept of serial correlation, but my edge is fine. Losses are small and few, winners are bigger, number trades are balanced all the time when account is slowly building. However when psychological barrier issue arises, this all gets distorted. So, no need to find new edges or find other systems
5) Edge is OK. When my issue is not there, account is slowly building. Pushing my luck only begins when psychological issue arises. Yes, systematizing is the right way, but the person who does it should be able to execute it at all times. Hence my post about self-discipline.
6) I'm not yet trading large sizes. I intend to gradually increase size when milestones are reached. But that's exactly what's causing the issue. So again, it's OK to set the goal, but I need to habitualize to forget about this this while trading and focus on the process.

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  #22 (permalink)
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paps View Post
dont suppress it. Acknowledge it. Know that the feeling is there. Be more aware of it. Once that happens you will observe a shift.

Yes, thanks paps, that's it. Acknowledge it, accept it. But controlling it and not get excited. Then forget about it and only focus on process of trading. I find that working on my self-discipline helps with this a lot. If anybody is interested, Brian Tracy is an expert on self-discipline and I find his work really useful.

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  #23 (permalink)
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Well, I think I'm a little closer in understanding the cause of the psychological issues that arise when some kind of target is reached and I experience setbacks. Since my last posts I had a couple of profitable days. Yesterday was FOMC meeting and I decided to trade, unfortunately I messed up and gave back those days plus some more. I thought about it and came to the conclusion that everytime I have a winning streak, my confidence grows and grows, until some point where I think I know where the market is going for sure. When the market does really what I envisioned, it reinforces this feeling even more, which actually creates an even bigger feeling of invincibility. When the market doesn't do what I was "sure" it would do, well, everybody know what happens then. Yes, it's a rookie mistake and described many times in books and on this forum, but apparently still plaguing me, and very hard to get rid of. But I'll just post it here to share with others my experience and for archiving purposes. What I'm curious about is, how others deal with this and how they overcame it.

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  #24 (permalink)
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Hey, caught your message on my archive thread... sorry, I'm not the OP of that gem of a comment, I just put it in my thread for future reference. I have yet to place my first live trade LOL

However, here is the link to the original post; you might hit up @monpere to see if he has any advice to offer.

https://futures.io/psychology-money-management/psychology-money-management/psych...rofits-3.html#post133395

I can offer up an analogy though, provided by a great racing mentor. I was having difficulty one day at the track; the car was understeering badly, it wasn't turning in very well at the limit and I was consistently ~3 feet off the apex of any given corner. Qualified mid-pack.

We didn't have time to adjust the car before the race; I was talking with Yogi about it and he simply said "aim 3 feet inside the apex."

I did and it worked. We managed to finish on the podium with an ill-handling car

Sounds to me like you have a mental block of sorts; you're quite aware of it, overthinking and maybe that is exacerbating the problem. Perhaps there is a simple solution? Instead of $30K, maybe set your goal at $35k, at which point you will have more than exceeded your threshold to add another lot and have some comfort level on top of it.

For sure, this is just a speed bump. You'll get there!


Last edited by Rrrracer; September 22nd, 2017 at 04:58 AM.
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  #25 (permalink)
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Rrrracer View Post
Hey, caught your message on my archive thread... sorry, I'm not the OP of that gem of a comment, I just put it in my thread for future reference. I have yet to place my first live trade LOL

However, here is the link to the original post; you might hit up @monpere to see if he has any advice to offer.

https://futures.io/psychology-money-management/psychology-money-management/psych...rofits-3.html#post133395

For sure, this is just a speed bump. You'll get there!

Thanks for your encouragement. In the meantime I didn't fare very well unfortunately. That link doesn't work, however I found that thread. Unfortunately mr monpere's last activity was 4 years ago. I guess another casualty...

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  #26 (permalink)
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It really does make you wonder what happens to some of the people here. Some will make their intentions known, farewell post, etc and others just drop off the face of the planet with no warning, with thousands of posts to their credit.

One thing's for sure, this business is a war of attrition LOL. Amazing how we uncover new trading demons as we go along... you wouldn't have made it this far without perseverance.

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  #27 (permalink)
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Rrrracer View Post
It really does make you wonder what happens to some of the people here. Some will make their intentions known, farewell post, etc and others just drop off the face of the planet with no warning, with thousands of posts to their credit.

One thing's for sure, this business is a war of attrition LOL. Amazing how we uncover new trading demons as we go along... you wouldn't have made it this far without perseverance.

well I discovered perseverance is not enough. self discipline is even more important. it's what blocking me at the moment

Rrrracer View Post
It really does make you wonder what happens to some of the people here. Some will make their intentions known, farewell post, etc and others just drop off the face of the planet with no warning, with thousands of posts to their credit.

One thing's for sure, this business is a war of attrition LOL. Amazing how we uncover new trading demons as we go along... you wouldn't have made it this far without perseverance.


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  #28 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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@rdaytrader I read the posts in this thread and it looks to me that you are perfectly aware of your challenge at hand:
Quoting 
well I discovered perseverance is not enough. self discipline is even more important. it's what blocking me at the moment

You are also aware of what you perceive as the solution:
Quoting 
This is an important point, because it tells me that the disciplined trading wasn't my "real self". Once the goal was reached, my "real self"popped out again. It is said that to become profitable at trading or successful at anything, you need to become another person/change your personality.

Seems like you have a belief that says 'I have to be disciplined to reach my goals/be successful in trading' and another one that possibly says 'I need to become another person/change because my real self is not disciplined enough' essentially saying I'm not enough. When you are at the proximity of your goal level both beliefs kick in, leading your actions.

What can you do? I think you already know the answers (The truth is we always know the answers but sometimes we do not want to accept what our intuition is telling us) Personally I would say accept yourself as you are now, entirely, you would be someone else if you didn't believe that this is the most beneficial state for you at this moment, right? Once you accepted yourself and learned the truth of your current existence you will naturally change/move forward or be perfectly happy with who you are. If you decide to become another person it will be based on wisdom, not force. To me forced changes rarely if ever worked, however once I understood that a behavior was obsolete or destructive I naturally changed. I hope this helps!

By the way a dutch person once told me that most ships sink in the harbor as most traders get complacent after getting very close to their desired destination, but from what I read I don't think this is your problem, however its good to keep this in mind.

“Happiness is the meaning and the purpose of life, the whole aim and end of human existence.” Δ
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  #29 (permalink)
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@Mtype,

Thanks very much for your feedback! I appreciate it that you read the posts and hopefully you gain from it too.

Yes, I am aware of the challenge, but as discussed, it's always after the fact. Every time the "ship sinks in the vicinity of the harbor" makes the desire to reach the harbor even greater. But as long as the cause of the sinking is there, the ship will sink again and again. In my case it's not complacency, but rather being overeager to reach the goal.

BTW thanks for bringing up that old saying, it's really applicable to this thread!

Yes, starting this thread has helped enlighten me and currently I am working on my self-discipline. Your interpretation of "becoming another person", "essentially saying I'm not enough" is very interesting. I think it's a nice explanation for the situation.

In the meantime I did take a step back again (as in the previous times), started reading up on self-discipline and as you say "accepting" the reality of now. I'm more relaxed and not focusing on any goals anymore, but only on the process. Also, I reduced the number of trades (which I also did the previous times). I've learned that "becoming another person" really means to discard bad habits and replace them with good habits. And yeah I agree with you it should be based on wisdom, not force. It seems that that is what I've been doing all along (changed behavior based on external force). Analogous like a child that is obedient when his parents are at home, but starts to party when they leave. It comes down to accepting the responsibility of the daily reality and do something about it or not. Or to stay with the child example: "Just grow up!" Simple but profound truth. Time will tell to see if this is the right way to move forward or not.

Another thing I want to bring up is something I read in another post about first "bringing your own house in order". See this post. Another simple but profound truth that I am working on. Hope my long-winded jabber is helpful to you too!

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  #30 (permalink)
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Rdaytrader,

What exactly was happening to your trading during those "pullback" periods? There should be some exact activity that cost you money in the end.

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