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All in all out vs. scaling in and out
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View Poll Results: All in all out or scale in and out?
All in, all out 79 33.05%
All in, scale out 103 43.10%
Scale in, scale out 57 23.85%
Voters: 239. You may not vote on this poll

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All in all out vs. scaling in and out

  #51 (permalink)
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For tighter ranges, (10-20 ticks) I'm all in all out
For wider ranges, I'm all in scale out
For trends, I'm all in/scale in, scale out

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  #52 (permalink)
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Thks Massive

while you scale in, I guess we add (scale in) 2nd and 3rd pos, as price "retrace" and gives better entry price than the 1st entry price? say, if you enter 1st CL at 93.20 and if price retrace to 93.10, adding 2nd contract so avg entry becomes 93.15, better entry for both. is this right?

I see someone say they add 2nd pos after 1st pos gains 5 ticks, but that makes the 2nd, entered at 5 ticks later though, increasing the risk if price reverse and hit stop loss

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  #53 (permalink)
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emini_Holy_Grail View Post
Thks Massive

while you scale in, I guess we add (scale in) 2nd and 3rd pos, as price "retrace" and gives better entry price than the 1st entry price? say, if you enter 1st CL at 93.20 and if price retrace to 93.10, adding 2nd contract so avg entry becomes 93.15, better entry for both. is this right?

I see someone say they add 2nd pos after 1st pos gains 5 ticks, but that makes the 2nd, entered at 5 ticks later though, increasing the risk if price reverse and hit stop loss

I let price tell me what to do.

A low risk entry and I'm all in but a higher risk entry, I'm expecting some drawdown so I don't go all in at first.
My strategy that I use the most is low risk high reward (with the trend) and low risk low reward (against the trend).
Different market conditions require different strategies. I don't add to positions based on ticks, I add based on the action. I go into the trade with a plan with exact numbers but as price and volume dance, I may alter my plan accordingly.

I use mechanical and high probability setups, but I manage my trade in a discretionary manner.
I have a plan to manage the trade with exact numbers but as price unfolds and I receive more information,
I may alter the way the trade is being managed.

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  #54 (permalink)
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emini_Holy_Grail View Post
I see someone say they add 2nd pos after 1st pos gains 5 ticks, but that makes the 2nd, entered at 5 ticks later though, increasing the risk if price reverse and hit stop loss

Yes, you are correct. You would be increasing your risk if you only entered on 1 lot whch gives you no chance to lock in profits.
But if you enter on multiple lots, you can take profits on your first target and if price has a pullback,
you can add back your lot using the same risk you had previously by adjusting your stop.

For example, if you enter 1 lot /TF short say 825 with your stop at 827 and your first target at 821
then you are set up (theoretically) 1:2 risk reward.

But if you hit your first target and cover 1 lot you are +40 ticks (1 lot, 4 points) but if
price reverses on your last 2 lots then you lose -40 ticks (2 lots at 2 points each) making that a scratch trade.

You are not risking anything after you covered your first target because you already secured 40 ticks.
This is managing your risk. If price agrees with your analysis and continues down then you are on a free ride
while bumping that risk/reward way up which gives you the opportunity to add to your position and move your stop to breakeven or even above to lock in profits.

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  #55 (permalink)
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Massive
thks for explaining. yes I do like to add when price pullbacks and not when the price is moving ahead in the direction of the trend. I am not comfortable adding this way and is just quest of fear that newly added will have more chance to hit SL, as the entry price wasn't as good as the initial one

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  #56 (permalink)
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also, when SL hit on all 3 lots, without even hitting 1st target (6 ticks 6E) , that brings my psyche down
only way is to look for next better entry. any other idea ? to offset this loss?

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  #57 (permalink)
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emini_Holy_Grail View Post
also, when SL hit on all 3 lots, without even hitting 1st target (6 ticks 6E) , that brings my psyche down
only way is to look for next better entry. any other idea ? to offset this loss?

That's the problem with this style of money management, when you are dead wrong about a trade you get punished severely (full stop on multiple lots). When you are somewhat right about a trade you get zilch (+40 -40, scratch). When you are absolutely right about a trade is when you get paid, partially (all scaleouts make less then full profit). This means, that you better be totally right a large percentage of the time, or insure that you catch every large move in the market which this method capitalizes on. Since these moves naturally do not happen as much as smaller moves, if you miss one of these large moves, because you were taking a bathroom break, you are screwed for the day. You are requiring the market to do something beyond ordinary, in order to profit. If you are a so-so trader, I think this approach will probably kill you.

On the previous example, how about instead of taking +40 ticks on the 1st scaleout, and then -40 ticks on the 2nd scale out resulting in a scratch. How about trading 1 lot, take your +40 ticks, and wait for the next trade? Instead of adding on, on the next pullback, how about just waiting for that pullback and enter a new trade with +40 ticks already in your pocket, with no risk of it being taken away, and without needing to pray for another 10 ticks up before the next pullback? ...Just the other side of the coin.

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  #58 (permalink)
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Monpere
- I already do what you suggested in the 2nd example., like trade 1 lot,. exit one trade with either profit or SL, then wait for next trade again with 1 lot, as not every entry can be wrong in 1st hour, from my exp.
I was wondering how scale in and out is done,. I may like scale out at some time after some testing, but I am not comfortable in "scaling in"
thks for your input and appreciate it

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  #59 (permalink)
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monpere View Post
That's the problem with this style of money management, when you are dead wrong about a trade you get punished severely (full stop on multiple lots). When you are somewhat right about a trade you get zilch (+40 -40, scratch). When you are absolutely right about a trade is when you get paid, partially (all scaleouts make less then full profit). This means, that you better be totally right a large percentage of the time, or insure that you catch every large move in the market which this method capitalizes on. Since these moves naturally do not happen as much as smaller moves, if you miss one of these large moves, because you were taking a bathroom break, you are screwed for the day. You are requiring the market to do something beyond ordinary, in order to profit. If you are a so-so trader, I think this approach will probably kill you.

On the previous example, how about instead of taking +40 ticks on the 1st scaleout, and then -40 ticks on the 2nd scale out resulting in a scratch. How about trading 1 lot, take your +40 ticks, and wait for the next trade? Instead of adding on, on the next pullback, how about just waiting for that pullback and enter a new trade with +40 ticks already in your pocket, with no risk of it being taken away, and without needing to pray for another 10 ticks up before the next pullback? ...Just the other side of the coin.

Definitely. That's a good call.
I guess it depends on your skill, experience, and the current market conditions/setup you are trading.
One of the traders I've learned from over the years has been at it full time for 5 years; turned
5k into who knows how much but I know he places 20k+ trades regularly. To say the least
he's been very proficient at selling in stages while building his account.

He trades areas of consolidation and doesn't buy his lots all at once. He buys them as the consolidation
progresses. When it's time to fly and the break goes in his direction (which it does a high percentage of the time),
he sells in stages.

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  #60 (permalink)
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Massive l View Post
Definitely. That's a good call.
I guess it depends on your skill, experience, and the current market conditions/setup you are trading.
One of the traders I've learned from over the years has been at it full time for 5 years; turned
5k into who knows how much but I know he places 20k+ trades regularly. To say the least
he's been very proficient at selling in stages while building his account.

He trades areas of consolidation and doesn't buy his lots all at once. He buys them as the consolidation
progresses. When it's time to fly and the break goes in his direction (which it does a high percentage of the time),
he sells in stages.

There are some discretionary traders out who have an innate ability to read the market, and be in tune with it, and they've been able to develop that ability into a fine tuned skill. A skill that the great majority of us will never achieve. The problem is every newbie trader who opens an account, thinks they are going to be that guy, and they find out soon enough, just because it comes easy to that guy, does not necessarily mean it will be the same for the rest of us

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