This thread is a collective approach to organize Mack's psychology related pieces into one place to help willing traders grow.
What this thread is not:
This thread is not a place for discussion on the Price Action Trading System Technique itself or any other day trading issues.
This thread is not a place for ego inflation. If you have personal experiences with trading psychology closely related to PATS or Mack's work and you feel it is helpful to others then by all means share it.
I do like to keep things organized.
“Happiness is the meaning and the purpose of life, the whole aim and end of human existence.” Δ
“There is no path, but only a fool wouldn’t follow it.”
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Many Traders Will Give up at this Point as they Realize Work is Involved
We get serious and start concentrating on learning a 'real' methodology.
We trade our methodology with some success, but realize that something is missing.
We begin to understand the need for having rules to apply our methodology.
We take a sabbatical from trading to develop and research our trading rules.
We start trading again, this time with rules and find some success, but overall we still hesitate when it comes time to execute. We start trading again, this time with rules and find some success, but overall we still hesitate when it comes time to execute.
We add, subtract and modify rules as we see a need to be more proficient with our rules.
We go back into the market and continue to donate. We go back into the market and continue to donate.
We start to take responsibility for our trading results as we understand that our success is in us, not the trade methodology.
We continue to trade and become more proficient with our methodology and our rules.
As we trade we still have a tendency to violate our rules and our results are erratic.
We know we are close.
We go back and research our rules.
We build the confidence in our rules and go back into the market and trade.
Our trading results are getting better, but we are still hesitating in executing our rules.
We now see the importance of following our rules as we see the results of our trades when we don't follow them.
We begin to see that our lack of success is within us (a lack of discipline in following the rules because of some kind of fear) and we begin to work on knowing ourselves better.
We continue to trade and the market teaches us more and more about ourselves.
We master our methodology and trading rules.
We begin to consistently make money. We begin to consistently make money.
We get a little overconfident and the market humbles us.
We continue to learn our lessons.
We stop thinking and allow our rules to trade for us (trading becomes boring, but successful) and our trading account continues to grow as we increase our contract size.
We are making more money then we ever dreamed to be possible.
We go on with our lives and accomplish many of the goals we had always dreamed of.
Source: Steps to Successful Commodities Futures Trading as published in Commodity Futures Trading Club News and in Traders Organization's Real Success Daytrading Course
This stuff is gold!
“Happiness is the meaning and the purpose of life, the whole aim and end of human existence.” Δ
“There is no path, but only a fool wouldn’t follow it.”
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Yes I do trade his method, combined with a big picture context read and I agree with him 100% that It takes time, practice and dedication with a good bit of self-understanding but it can be very very rewarding.
If you interested you can find my journal in my profile but this actual thread is dedicated to his psychology talks. I will be adding to it every week if I can.
“Happiness is the meaning and the purpose of life, the whole aim and end of human existence.” Δ
“There is no path, but only a fool wouldn’t follow it.”
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By the way guys this applies to any endeavour. The days of digging are long and hard but the fountain is there waiting for the one who goes all the way. Keep on digging!
“Happiness is the meaning and the purpose of life, the whole aim and end of human existence.” Δ
“There is no path, but only a fool wouldn’t follow it.”
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I subscribe to Mack's YouTube content, but I don't agree with his perception of the market that he laid out in the first video you posted. The "donaters" he speaks of are retail and they don't inject a sufficient amount of capital to the zero-sum equation that he references. Institutional and various well-capitalized proprietary trading is the source of market patterning. The little retail trader is only swept along in the larger flow. Therefore, the bulk of capital that is trapped in/out of a market is not retail. Furthermore, if one believes that liquidity benefits his strategy, and he is trading against trapped participants, he should want them to be deeply positioned. In my opinion, the best way to perceive the other side of the market is to merely presume that you are trading against yourself (or against someone that is using your exact strategy). When I do this, most market perception becomes automatic (irrelevant) and I'm left with the psychologically simpler work of just testing my strategy against the market.
Despite this trivial criticism of Mack, I think he's got a solid perception of markets when it comes to patterns. He mentions profit taking at measured moves and correctly points out that this is where traders fall into traps, but we differ on just who is trapped. Check out his tactics on channel measured moves. Its a rarely taught reliable pattern.
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I agree with you. Not all traders trade the 2000 tick chart, and lots of time a 1 tick trap cannot even be seen on a time based chart. I do like his observation of "close outside channel, two measured move to the opposite direction and resume the original trend". It's actually a second entry on a 5 min chart, but much easier to spot on a tick/volume chart.
Hi,
Lot of you guys are pretty good on Pats stuff. Can anyone please guide me on how to do my drills off line to get good at this stuff. I understand pats methodolgy but do not know how to get better at it. I really appreciate it if someone can guide me on this.
Hi @Leo
Like to understand what kind and how should I practice PATs stuff in off hours so it becomes second nature. For example I can use replay mode and open chart of 2000 ticket on ES, going forward bar by bar and start drawing channels on it to be good at drawing channels something like that. I am believer that practice does not make perfect, good and accurate practice makes you perfect. So trying to find the right way to do the PATs drills. Can you guys please guide me.
Just to share how i learn about MACK methods:
1. You should know the key entry point. This key entry points are where you look for trade.
Key entry points are:
- Support and Resistance
- 2nd Entry trade near EMA or Trendline
- Trendline
Above key entry points are depend on the market condition when you trade it (Up, down or range condition). The method explain in MACK manual in which you can purchase from him for $100. Im not advertise his manual but i bought it.
2. Everyday after market close, do your analysis to the chart. Look which pattern do you recognize, why it works and why it fails. Find other pattern that working beside the patterns that you recognize.
3. Believe in MACK method. Nothing is 100% bullet proof from loses.
4. If you can do live demo, thats much better because you will see how the candle created and how your mind thought everytime candles created.
5. Take seriously on your demo as if like your live account. Dont under estimate demo account. I burn alot of live account because of underestimate demo account.
I think thats all i can share for now. Sorry for my grammar and any mistake in my english. Thanks
Leo
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Good video, love the pep talk at the end where he talks about moving his stops early in his career.. something I have identified as a problem area for me, and changed my behavior. Thanks for the share, first of his videos I've watched but I will definitely check out more.
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About 7 and a half minutes in he starts talking about a 22 point runner then starts talking about the math of risking 8 to make 2. He tries to get back to the days trading then goes back to explaining runners again.Helps to clarify some of what I was thinking, that the scalps are only part of the story the runners are the other chapter.
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About 13:30 he starts on trendlines, goes on to haters hitting his web site, makes it clear that this is not about his trades but about how to trade. Best parts are where he talks about failed traders trying to teach others with all the new fancy words.
He is way to nice to call them what they are frauds, or as W.C. Fields said "“If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” But I am sure Hank is too polite to ever use that quote.
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Mack's tactic is a 4t target and an 8t stop. Optionally, a portion of the size can be dedicated to a larger target (TBD) with a BE stop (the remaining 8t stops are moved to BE - IF AND WHEN the 4t target is filled).
With all due respect to Mack, I'm skeptical of a few things.
The initial R/R ratio is brutal on the trader who can't yet make the 67% W/L ratio required to stay afloat. He should mention that the option is an advanced method and shouldn't be relied upon to negate the necessity of the 67% win rate.
BE is the statistically worst place to park a stop for his setup. A lot of traders enter or re-enter there because the trapped traders are still making healing trades. They're not all shook out after a 6t move and if there was a reasonable expectation of a swing, it isn't nullified with a retest of the entry.
The tactic doesn't easily lend itself to analysis. If he wants to see his expectancy, the trader has to log 2 different trades/tactics every time he uses the option. That's a problem with any method that includes a management option.
Mack himself says you don’t have to do it this way. You could...
. hold the entire trade for runner
. not trail the stop to breakeven but reinvest the profits from a scalp
. move to breakeven but don’t scalp out & hold for a runner
. or whatever else comes to your mind
His point being that there is no one right method to manage these trades.
As long as you take the right entries & a management style that you can consistently stick to, you‘ll be fine.
If you don’t like the math of the scalp, hold the trade longer.
If you don’t like the logic of the breakeven stop, keep the stop where it was.
Just do what you can do consistently.
(Just my take/Interpretation of his stuff, so take it for what it’s worth)
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Leon of Pizza may I politely suggest you review some of the PATs rules as you are close to what it does, but not quite there yet. I do agree with most of your criticism, but from a slightly different view.
You are right that PATs is an advanced trading method but what you don't say is that it is clearly labeled as an advanced hard to learn method. Mack is almost a broken record in his how to do it lectures that the PATs method is a PhD in trading. Many here on the forums have called it a simplified Al Brooks method. No where has it even been suggested that this is a a quick and easy to learn system. Mack suggests re-reading his method several times and sim trading for an extended period of time until you can recognize the moves in real time. So I totally agree with your assessment, as would Mack that this is an advanced trading method.
Mack claims that a six tick move from the close of the signal bar is a very high probability event with the ES. Certainly the extra 3 ticks for the second leg has a reduced probability, even on his daily replay sessions. The forth contract, the runner, often fails at break even, but when it does go, well he says the runners take a mediocre scalping system and make it a highly profitable system. The perception of this system is an issue in behavioral economics as shown in Moneyball. Baseball scouts over value the players who can occasionally hit one out of the park and under value the players who somehow manage to get on base very regularly. So the typical person's mind will discount the value of the routine scalp and wonder why the system isn't optimized for a big win on the runner without you being consciously aware of it. Follow several of the trading journals and see how many write extensively about hitting a one point scalp.
I am with you that calculating expectancy for PATs is a major pain. Stops are 1 tick above or below the signal bar. Signal bar is where the move starts. Stops are no more than 8 ticks. If it will be over that Mack won't take the trade. The first thing you do is move the stop to that 1 tick position, so it is a stop within a range that doesn't exceed 8 ticks. Then, if the trade goes in the correct direction for 5 ticks you have an 8 tick profit and two contracts with a break even stop. So yes a second set of records to keep on that third contract that is locked in between a possibly changed stop and an 8 tick exit. As well as records on the fourth contract where once again you are manually moving the stop as the trade progresses. So really it is three trades at one entry with what, at least intuitively are increasing risks and rewards. So my spreadsheet is really wide as I have entry direction, reason, price and time followed by two exit profit/loss and an exit price time and profit/loss for the runner. I have a daily summary sheet that I have split in two to track the scalps separate from the runners then bringing the daily totals together. Good thing I have a printer that does tabloid size paper! ( 11 by 17 inch paper)
Somewhere buried deep in all his printed works Dr. Van Tharp addresses calculating expectancy with a variable stop. He suggests doing the same thing as when you don't know what your initial risk is, use your average loss, preferably over 100 sim trades or back tested trades. My own experience is Mr Davies at Jigsaw trading is correct my actual track record is not as good as my after the fact track record so I keep track of both to see what the system edge is and how much of it I am managing to capture. In fact Mack is in agreement with Jigsaw as he says repeatedly that comparing actual to theoretical at the end of the day is the most important thing you can do. Downloading results to a spreadsheet also uses a lot of real estate because each winning trade has a minimum of four transactions, frequently more.
The issue with calculating the average loss with the PATs method is one of the major issues with the PATs method, in my opinion. That of course is Macks explicit statements that this is a training exercise and it isn't about his own trading record. What differentiates Mack from the frauds with the rented Lambos, rented models and empty champagne bottles is he has never ever claimed to show anything but an after the game commentary on where he thought the opportunities were. Be that as it may there is no place you can go to except your own records to get that loss level.
A contributing factor is the same issue for all of us who use those darn tick charts, nobodies bars are the same. So everybody using a 2000 tick chart is going to have different size signal bars so by definition everyone has to apply the method to their own situation. So really what you end up with is the same evaluation problem as you see with many of the trading journals on this forum. Those being (sarcasm on) the members of the red and green order who proudly trade off of a bare chart on a discretionary method. I am laughing with them, not at them, but the issue is clear. How do you calculate expectancy on a discretionary trader.
I think we are more likely to trust people who admit to mistakes. Certainly back when I had to be evaluated I always tried to come up with some small shortcoming that I could promise to improve on. The ever obscene Tom Dante takes the opposite approach and constantly tells us aspiring traders which stupid mistakes we are making. Futures Trader 71 does the same thing, in polite language, on a regular basis. Mack, for whatever reason uses the always positive method. He does occasionally point out a place where a lot of us could have miss read the action but his strongest rebuke is to say you need a lot more studying. Not directly pointing out failings is contrary to what many people have experienced so it may not seem right, especially to a drill sergeant!
Given the difficulty in statistically evaluating the PATs method and the lack of a verified track record why bother then? Because Dr. Van Tharp says the most profitable traders are the rules based discretionary crowd. Probably why so many on this forum eventually become novices in the order of the red and green. PATs gives you a framework and an explicit method with daily feedback for moving in that direction. So do a few others, but mostly with even greater complexity and higher fees.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmu_i7_ot-c
About 15 minutes in Mack wraps up and reads an email from a guy who has managed to "get it" after a year.
Then he goes soap box about why you can't help people in chat rooms. He says he has tried in the past but they just don't want to listen. The issue being they are positive that what Mack calls the wrong way is the way to do it. He says some of his successful students have gone back to their old chat rooms to try to help people and they have given up because of the resistance from others to his methods.
I saw the same thing on an Elliot Wave site. I guy I still follow who is very successful (Coolbizone1) literally got run out by a bunch of whiners who mostly liked to insult and mock people. He posted his trading account and they of course did not.
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I agree with that. I log every setup - whether I take it or not. As you stated, the comparison to performance is important. Opportunity expands and contracts. I don't want to see contractions revealed in a declining trade expectancy and expansions appear in the "would-have-been" column. I want to see a consistent percentage of captured opportunity.
Re Mack: I may have overstated my criticism. Someone was asking about his exits and I thought it helpful to warn them off of the multiple targets. Not only is the record keeping requirement higher, he'll have to start out with managing 2 discretionary stories at the same time.
I think the BE stop is a wrong tactic after only a 6t move. My experience has been more scratched winners than scratched losers there. However, that number is closer to 50% than 67%, so I think that requires a risk/reward minimum that doesn't use zero. What sort of a plan calls for taking on risk and taking zero profit? When I think about it, it seems to me that there are a couple of psychological parts to it. First, the scalped size is in the bag and is mentally weighed against that hurdle of a 67% W/L. There's not enough of a plan for the swing size to make me comfortable. Second, is basic risk relief - which I think works on us before we enter. A high probability scalp also means a high probability that we will receive risk relief, which may cause us to avoid too much thinking about the swing trade that we are also entering. "No risk it, no biscuit" - Bruce Arians
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Let me say that I try really hard to not have any original thoughts. The motto for my fake trading firm is "Our strength comes from our lack of innovation". So let me parrot others here and offer an opinion.
Van Tharp has said in print that successful rules based discretionary traders typically hit about half of their trades, he calls it efficiency. But how can you measure if you don't know what 100% is? So we are on the same page and I would like to see someone come up with a counter argument that holds water!
On Mack's Price Action Trading System. I like it because it is like adding another sauce to the main item I was all ready cooking. I am continuing to focus on my day trade. The difference is that when I make a trade the computer automatically adds three more contacts with two profit stops, an initial stop on all four and an instruction to move two to break even. I have opted to put in a profit stop at 3 points for the fourth contract so I do have to get in gear and move that if the trade is going well. I agree with Mack, with no evidence to support it, that having those profit stops entered immediately gets you a better spot in the ques for better fills. So you concentrate on the one trade and if it starts to turn against you hit the correct button to bail on what ever is left of the scalps as well. It is a big deal to me to finally be using some of those advanced features. And I really like the ca-ching sound going off. Of course because it is all on the chart I can step in and drag and drop at will, which you have to do anyway to manage the runner contract.
As far as record keeping goes I have added an extra column to my spread sheet which I set up for day trading. That column is the points from the scalp. On my statistics page I have two columns now for each trade so the points made or lost are broken into scalp and runner. But the computer brings that up from my raw data page so no extra work on my part.
For November, based on what I see as the correct trades following the rules (perfect paper trading for posing by someone else's Lamborghini with a rented model on my arm) 96% of the scalps hit 4 points. The runners were stopped out at 0 20% of the time but contributed over 60% of the total points.
I think a key issue is to look at the scalp trades through a different prism. Futures Trader 71 has shown many times how he calculates the average rotation. I think of these scalp trades as a way to harvest a profit off of the average rotation (was around 3 and a half points, don't know his current number) while you are going after every possible swing trade knowing that some will not work.
I think anyone day trading with price action playing the pull backs and reversals with a small number of contracts should look at having the computer trade the scalps to add to their bottom line. Obviously with an initial R of 6 points and a payoff of 4 you need to have the appropriate win loss ratio. And if they are trading a slow chart, like the 5 minute they had better look at the initial part of their trades on a much faster chart to back test. With today's volatility five minute bars are covering a lot of trades.
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Wow. Now all you have to do is find the %ROC for each and ditch the lesser method.
I get that. I think of it as 2 adjacent time frames, meaning 2 groups of traders using different risk/reward ranges. Our perspective's are close enough to discuss it. Either way, there are 2 trades on with different risk/rewards, so why does the outcome of the 1st trade determine the result of the 2nd?
Also, if we're both talking ES ticks here, I'll point out that Mack is using 6t and you're using 18t. Moving the stop up after 18 favorable ticks is a lot more reasonable. Yet, if the initial entry had any meaning - BE remains a support price that has a reasonable probability of being tested, so a few ticks below BE is the better price to quit the swing. Or if there's a little something of support in the profit zone, then just below that is another price better than BE. In that model, you're replacing the 80% BE exits with partial winners and partial losers. I'm not saying that the numbers would turn out better, but you're at least using basic S/R principles to place your stop and that seems a more appropriate tactic if you want to hold the position for an indeterminate range.
Alternatively, why not just limit out at a higher predetermined range? The overall strategy then is multiple range scalps. That works better for me because I'm a shabby swing trader. I also like the cleaner experience record that you can't get from swinging with a manually adjusted (discretionary) stop. My experience with secondary exits isn't nearly as good as yours, but I don't see that its due to using target limits and avoiding the dreaded BE stop.
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Sorry, I wasn't clear. First, this price action is looking for pullbacks and reversals so in my mind you are daytrading swings and the scalp is just an add on bonus to the trade. Yes that break even is five ticks from the entry. On paper the entry is one tick above or below the close of the signal bar but that is a drag and drop manual operation when the bar closes so the precision isn't that perfect. The break even is placed by the program so it is allways at five ticks from the entry.
I have the program entered an 18 tick profit stop for the fourth contract. So if I sit on my hands I am out at 3 points. If the move is looking good I can grab that sell with the mouse and move it further. Or if things arn't so hot I can take that break even stop and move it up a little. The big money comes from hitting these extreme moves. Even when you have a contract in play Mack has no troble adding on at pullbacks so frequently you have several swing trades running.
To me these consolidation ranges are trouble because they are so tight and you don't always get decent signal bars. But they seem to end with a big and very fast move. Getting paid $90 bucks after commissions to grab the ups and downs in the range (five tick move) hoping you are getting in on a big 10 points in 5 minutes algo run has it's charms.
Before I added his rules onto what I was already doing I was using Fat Tails Chande Kroll atr based stop loss system. Works great in a trending market. No reason you can't use something like that once you have a swing trade going. These days I just watch my two direction indicators and when they start saying time for a reversal I get out when price crosses the EMA line. Not saying the oscillators are always right but they are usually right so if I go against them I make myself write down why price action looked so good.
Here is an example from Thursday where I screwed up. I thought wrongly that after failing to get back above the EMA that nice big red bar was the start of another leg of the drop. Well I was wrong. I was also a tick low on my entry. The oscillators called the down move correctly, but they didn't call the double bottom. Mack's idea of letting the computer do stuff paid off.
Entry at 1:27:35
2 contracts closed $100 gross profit 1:27:48 ( I am not that fast on my own)
2 contracts stopped out at break even 1:28:22 So the whole thing was over in less than a minute and I got paid. The way I was trading I know it would have been a loser.
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I misunderstood. The 18t target was in your existing strategy and you added the Mack later. 5t initiates the move to BE.
Re: record keeping, when you adjust the 18t stop, do you still log the result with its original setup/plan? If I move an order and take more ticks than I planned for - I only log the planned ticks towards my expectancy. The entire MFE is logged to the setup's expectancy. Its more work, but I feel like the record is more accurate and the record's purpose is to produce confidence leading up to entry. I have to keep one eye on the market and one eye on myself lest I run amok.
If the setup expectancy increase is consistent, I'll bump the target up. If the setup's expectancy contracts, then I'll retreat and go for smaller targets.
If I move an order, I log the trade as a scratch (scratched winner or scratched loser). So, in addition to the range, each of my trades has one of these 4 outcomes (W, L, SW, SL). I use the scratch count as a discipline indicator. I tally up daily, weekly and monthly.
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Hope everyone had a good holiday break from trading.
You are way better at calling targets than me. When I enter a trade I have no idea where I will get out. I exit when it looks like the move is going to end. I like to have some sort of variable stop loss system running that I can attach the stop to. What bothered me for several years was Van Tharp's expectancy/system quality number. Finally I cam across a bootleg copy of his advanced pamphlet on the internet. Buried inside the 100 pages was a paragraph that said if you use a variable stop just use your average loss. So that is what I do.
So what I see is you are correct there are really three outcomes for the trades that are significant. The relatively rare actual loss, the much more common scratch trade and the winner. I don't see changing the stop as something to record as I am assuming that to always be the case. If it hits the profit target before a change then I have that in my results column. The big issue to me is that past written trading wisdom does not deal with this situation.
The idea is you are taking every single entry knowing full well that many of them will not exceed the current level of noise but the ones that do you got in early. So what to do with the noise entries, do the zeros go on the win or lose column and I think either one hurts the accuracy of your calculations if you are following advice for trading with basically two outcomes. And this dual system of Mack's has two components each with three outcomes. The scalp has three discrete outcomes (-6, +2 and +4) and the trade has two discrete and one variable outcome (-2, 0 and plus). So yea, it's like a cross over record that doesn't fit into the category racks at the store.
I try to avoid that situation. I use my setup's MFE record and chart structure to generate a RFE (Reasonable Favorable Excursion). My goal is to limit out near the RFE. Most setups have multiple RFEs - one for each of the various groups of participants. Thanks for the compliment, btw. If I had the patience and psychological mettle to wait for those higher targets, it would be deserved, but too many of them end as scratched winners.
Mack's measured 2nd leg is a good example of using chart structure. He doesn't stress it as a place to limit out with the "runner", but its at least implied. Btw, that number is the 100% curve on a fib extension. Another is what he calls the 2 tier channel (also a 100% expansion of the channel's initial range).
Hmm, not sure I understand that. My average loss number is affected by my mistakes and I don't see what that has to do with the other participants and what they're doing. Isn't it better to find their average MAE and then plan to risk a little more than that? My goal is to imitate their behavior, so any numbers I make are only used to find how close I'm getting to that. The numbers used to plan trades are their numbers only (the setup's expectancy).
Yes I have switched to NT8 and I am using the factory order flow volume profile. Comes from watching all those FT71 you tubes, makes me feel like the chart is naked without it.
I also run Ed'sd Level2DOM on the right edge. Most of the time it is not helpful but occasionally you see a big bar.
Sorry wasn't clear on Tharp. He is talking about calculating your trade size to avoid risk of ruin.
Mack is pretty clear that he is showing a simplified method and refers to Al Brooks for those who want a deeper dive. I say this because I extend the concept to Mack's choice of stops and targets. He is using numbers that have worked for years. Now given the higher volatility he has suggested stretching things a little. But your program of looking at the rotations and their sizes matches up with FT 71 who is frequently running calculation on the average rotation. And that makes intuitive sense, a more volatile market with bigger moves should be treated differently.
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Thanks for putting those up!
The second one I was stuck by how much he and Dr. Van Tharp are saying the same thing. Mack uses the term tendencies, Van Tharp talks about working on your self and getting rid of or changing beliefs that are not helpful.
It always seems to become the same thing, you must do this alone Mack is just someone who can show you how to start the journey, but the path is your's alone. As overused as the movie scene is as a metaphor both Mack and Van Tharp are Yoda telling us we must face our internal fears alone.
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Hey, no worries! I really liked these as well so I was sure that others would find it helpful as well. I totally agree with what you said as well because mindset in my opinion is the most important personal trait that is needed with anything to be honest. Even outside of that, it's dealing with the obstacles that may present itself on such a journey and staying persistent through all of it. Definitely great to here from someone who's been through it all.
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Thursday the 28th, Mack's video, about 12 minutes in he is talking about the bottom at around noon New York Time. He goes into a brief monologue on second entries. You know your ears need to go up when he says I don't put this in the book...
Around 19 minutes in he starts with an e-mail and goes on for 10 minutes. Basically one of his standard talks.
Part 1. Keep reading the manual and you will find something new every time you read it.
Part 2. People who have mastered trading do not hang out in chat rooms. If you try to explain how to do Price Action Trading correctly in a chat room they will rip you to shreds with false information.
My 2 cents. Yes, as you spend your days getting screen time stuff makes more sense and re-reading it expands your knowledge. Many years ago I had a teacher (high school biology) who keep saying "you only see what you know".
Would people on these forms deliberately shoot Mack down? Well I think it is very likely because so many of us are well intended but lack some knowledge. So then what is the point of posting this stuff from time to time. Read your Dr. Brett Steenbarger. Apparently we all do have an altruistic side to our personalities. After all we are social creatures and we all like to see others succeed. On the other hand there is never a person who is more wrong than the one who is dead sure of their position. So yes, you can say, hey I think this method works and someone will come along and say I am positive it won't and here are my reasons. It is a lost cause to argue with them, especially when they are citing stuff that isn't correct as part of the proof.
This is the bottom around Noon on Thursday New York. My chart is Mountain time. I have marked it up with Mack's arrows, more or less. Red and blue are safe bets. You can see the moves around the EMA and the obvious trend lines. I have the PriveActionSwing set at strength of 4 marking tops and bottoms. I am using Lizard Indicators opening range to keep track of the pre-open and cash market highs and lows, Not the opening range. If I could use these new languages I would change the label!
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Mack is back with a punch! This video should be watched by all traders because this challenges apply to all of us.
There are two parts, one right at the beginning and the second part starts at around 17 minutes where he goes into a talk about discipline and patience.
Very important lesson! Also, thanks @xplorer for keeping the thread clean, I would like to ask the same from all followers, since the topic is very clear.
Keep up the work!
“Happiness is the meaning and the purpose of life, the whole aim and end of human existence.” Δ
“There is no path, but only a fool wouldn’t follow it.”
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Wow! What a lesson in a nut shell. Don't care how you trade that was universal, really belongs over in the trading psych threads.
Thanks Mtype for making up for my lack of discipline. I freely admit that given an after the fact chart of the day I can pretty much match 90% of what Mack is going to show at night which has made me an occasional viewer. Wish he had an advanced viewer version of his videos.
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Also, I'm thinking about doing a project where I would collect all the "soapbox" episodes and cut them together in an audio file. I'll ask him if he would support this and also I would like to ask you, if you know any episodes from the past that has helped you, please do share it and I will include that as well, only PATS talk of course.
Best
M
“Happiness is the meaning and the purpose of life, the whole aim and end of human existence.” Δ
“There is no path, but only a fool wouldn’t follow it.”
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Yes I would. He is very consistent with his work and also does it for free but just like any other trading system the time & effort required to make it work is substantial, at least from what I've experienced. I've been following him since 2014 and as you can see I deeply appreciate his work.
“Happiness is the meaning and the purpose of life, the whole aim and end of human existence.” Δ
“There is no path, but only a fool wouldn’t follow it.”
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Al Brooks demonstrates the strategy with 5m bars. He calls it H1, H2 (L1, L2). H2 is a "second entry" buy. Brooks' philosophy is that there are sufficient opportunities with 5m bars, so he avoids the stress of working the lower time frames. Also, there's something to keep in mind about tick charts: the varying pace. When volume is high, the tick chart is cranking out 30 second bars, requiring you to analyze and make decisions faster. When it slows down, they might be 3m to 15m bars. So there's an added task of perspective adjustment. I don't use tick charts.
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Last week, toward the end of the week Mack did a live trade, something he doesn't do much of.
By the way if you want to learn price action the last couple of weeks of video's (he tries to cut off at 30 minutes) have been a great seminar on how to do it with lots of time spent answering questions from viewers who haven't figured out the fundamentals.
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Currently cleaning all of my backlog on Macks videos from January 6th through today - and I came here because I wanted to post exactly this piece
points he raises in this video:
- trade bigger, not more. But be prepared that it'll take time to grow your trade size.
- the mental side and experience are key, learning the method doesn't take long.
- if you are not 100% confident in your read, you are just gambling. (that was me, today).
- you are getting better by studying all your trades, and reviewing the entire day's priceaction.
Not by sim-trading and then going home.
I like the bullet points @Scalpingtrader. We should add that from now on and if you see something that I've missed, you know what to do. I respect Mack so much, he shares a working system for free and teaches the little details on the mental side that don't come easy. We are lucky!
Hope you will make the best use of it!
“Happiness is the meaning and the purpose of life, the whole aim and end of human existence.” Δ
“There is no path, but only a fool wouldn’t follow it.”
The following 2 users say Thank You to Mtype for this post:
Soap box right from the start until minute 25. Going over
- data quality & tools
- how to draw trendlines (today's data only!)
- signal bars & sitting out if they are not great
- key entry points and patience - this is where he really gets going
Life hack: I listen to Mack's videos at 2x speed. Still understanding everything perfectly but only takes half as long, so I can go over the key points a couple times
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It is interesting over the last couple of months that he has a lot of new subscribers and a lot of them make the same mistakes. You hear the frustration in his voice as he wants to be positive and not discourage people but at the same time some folks don't get it. As in asking him why a second entry short failed in a major up trend.
