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Subconscious Beliefs - Key to Trading?
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Subconscious Beliefs - Key to Trading?

  #11 (permalink)
Normal Wizard
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Rory View Post
While I personally believe worrying about work psychology is a slippery slope i.e. I just mentally quote Frank Herbert: “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration" etc. I am 'deep' but I keep my professional brain very shallow. Just make yourself believe your doing this for someone else and your integrity will force you to do a good job etc. etc.

My recent psychological mentoring of junior I.T. staff was only to show this video and then commenting that sometimes tasks are simply very hard, one may just have to go that far to crack problem. It can be tougher when you don't know what plywood is. If it is too difficult, something is possibly wrong so check with a colleague. It also alerted me to the dudes with insufficient attention span for 3 minutes of video....

To the point: I'm trying to train a much older student/assistant at the moment. He is late 50s, damn smart (retired air-traffic controller) but really struggling with following the simple mechanical trading method I have worked out for him to start with (just on live SIM). He does not ask questions when he is at a brick wall or changes the method and justifies it afterwards. I remind him to pipe up when stuck or thinking of going off-script..he just does not.

I think, maybe.. the primary issue is that he (like I), have not sufficient experience of subconsciously trusting a mentor who is significantly younger . He has buckets of confidence, his amygdala? is very used to being 'the man' and unquestioned in competence through his career. He sees me "knocking it out of the park" every week and it is depressing him already. He is a nice guy but I guess has general old-lion issues?

If your looking through books or online, have you ever seen anything addressing the issue of an older person who is maybe struggling with still being very good, just not as brilliant as when young? Hopefully obviously related to trading, maybe the biography of a trader who started at a much older age or anything else?

Sorry, maybe that is off your topic, I'm not sure I'm defining clearly but may as well ask someone

Rory

Usually the problem is something to do with self-worth, like feeling you deserve the money (which is a lot to do with if you accept and love yourself, if you received love as a child or this love was absent or conditional), or to do with money itself, if you think its scarce or evil etc etc. As you say he is having trouble following through with the method which indicates some sort of subconscious sabotage. if you want to get to specific causes hypnotherapy is a good idea because it puts the mind into a deep state of relaxation where the conscious is shut off, and where memory recall is made a lot easier (see George's post, he also gives a few more solutions), usually reliving that cause will eliminate the issue. I don't really think its him not trusting a younger mentor. Our beliefs will fractal out into everything we do pretty much, so general negative beliefs about money will mean you will have trouble with it in your life, regardless of what specific actions or situation you get into to solve your financial problems (you have to get your thinking right before you can take effective action, as action stems first from thought, and our habitual thinking is largely based on subconscious beliefs). The methods I suggested are focused on embedding new positive beliefs into the subconscious, overwriting older "programs" as you can't hold contradictory beliefs.

Understanding yourself is just as important as understanding markets.
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  #12 (permalink)
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Thanks @TickedOff

I pondered my original hypothesis that he was having trouble with following my lead and decided you are probably correct. Its not an age gap, something else is blocking him. Chrometophobia? is not an issue here (he has the same view as I, money is just the concentrated time of others ) I think however fear of error itself is close to the mark and needs some time.

I had a good think about it I also traced through his trades. I have decided to do an eye-tracker & biofeedback survey to evaluate how he is processing the information in front of him. I suspect a part of his issue is he is not parsing the data efficiently in his mind. I'll see if the key information layout can be improved, it is very often counter intuitive. His career experience had lead him to work in a very specific manner. We need to work with his existing neuron training, not fight it.

Regards,
Rory

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  #13 (permalink)
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deaddog View Post
I like the analogy of a Boat, but I believe (There we go with beliefs again) that the Boat is the System.

If the System has a hole in it, (no proven edge) then no amount of psychology will keep it afloat.

We cannot change what the market is going to do by wishing. No amount of visualization or affirmation will change market behaviour. As traders all we can do is react to what the market is doing.

I agree that you have to believe in your system but that belief comes from using the system and having data to prove the system is viable.

I think you are aside from the main point in reframing your boat of beliefs to boat of a system with an edge. Many expert traders have posted that they can teach a proven profitable system to a group and they will lose money with it. If you have a proven profitable system then you can hire traders teach them and they will print money for you and you will soon own most of the world's money.

On the other hand if you have you have a sound supportive belief boat - you believe you will succeed, you deserve to succeed, success WILL happen it is INEVITABLE, then you will soon bring to you the resources you need (readings, actions, teachings etc) that are needed and do the work needed, to fulfill your belief of ASSURED VICTORY. In short you will build a solid system with a clear edge because it is needed for your success. Your Boat of Successful Beliefs will cause you to create a system with an edge.

A system with a proven edge without a Strong Boat of Beliefs
is like having a Massororti (sp?) and not knowing how to drive or even that being able to drive is a feat possible for you.

Keep your mind in the future, in the now.

Last edited by aquarian1; January 9th, 2016 at 07:00 PM.
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  #14 (permalink)
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Rory View Post
To the point: I'm trying to train a much older student/assistant at the moment. He is late 50s, damn smart (retired air-traffic controller) but really struggling with following the simple mechanical trading method I have worked out for him to start with (just on live SIM). He does not ask questions when he is at a brick wall or changes the method and justifies it afterwards. I remind him to pipe up when stuck or thinking of going off-script..he just does not.

...
He sees me "knocking it out of the park" every week and it is depressing him already. He is a nice guy but I guess has general old-lion issues?

Rory

In reading your post I was wondering why have you not asked him about the dilemma? -that is you saying
"What I see is ..... solid system ... appear to not following .... don't come to ask when - roadblocks.
How do you see the situation?
How can I help you better?
From your viewpoint are the system and steps clear?
Do you see blocks to implementing the system? If yes what do you see as blocks?

That is don't assume xyz is a block (e.g age differential etc) ask him.

He would be used to learning a series of procedures that is what air traffic controller is all about.

I doubt its "old-lion". Actually assuming that may be a block in your truly listening to him. If it were old-lion he would not have agreed to try your system.

Have you actually typed out the steps of your "system"?

This is important. If you can't clearly type them out perhaps you are trading things that you aren't aware of. You may think you have described it accurately but haven't. When he asked about situations did you reply:
"It's so simple you do this and this."

If you haven't typed out your system but only described it in a verbal and fragmented way with examples then you need to be honest with yourself. Why have you not bothered?

I think your student has proven from his career, he has the ability to follow clear procedures and to follow them under pressure and exercise good judgement.

Because "you knock it out of the park" - is not proof you have a clear solid system.

Keep your mind in the future, in the now.
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  #15 (permalink)
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aquarian1 View Post

A system with a proven edge without a Strong Boat of Beliefs
is like having a Massororti (sp?) and not knowing how to drive or even that being able to drive is a feat possible for you.

However a system without an edge is like having a boat with a hole in it. A Strong Boat of Beliefs will not stop it from sinking.

It is hard to find the Truth when you start your search with a preconceived notion of what the Truth will be.
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  #16 (permalink)
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deaddog View Post
However a system without an edge is like having a boat with a hole in it. A Strong Boat of Beliefs will not stop it from sinking.

We all agree on this point. But a system with proven edge will not stop the "boat" from sinking when you have subconscious beliefs that are blocking you. If you cant execute a system properly you cant extract its edge. You need both.

Understanding yourself is just as important as understanding markets.
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  #17 (permalink)
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TickedOff View Post
We all agree on this point. But a system with proven edge will not stop the "boat" from sinking when you have subconscious beliefs that are blocking you. If you cant execute a system properly you cant extract its edge. You need both.

I agree.

Is the problem one of subconscious beliefs or is it a discipline problem.
Believing you are going to be successful won't make it necessarily so. Believing in your system or your systems edge may enable you to trade with the discipline necessary to make it successful.

It is hard to find the Truth when you start your search with a preconceived notion of what the Truth will be.
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  #18 (permalink)
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Naturally having a system with an edge is a requirement. But is a second level requirement.

You must have the foundation of a house well-built and solid before erecting the structure. No one believes a house is complete with only a solid foundation.

However many people erect a structure, patch it, repair it and all for not. They fiddle and tweak endlessly without recognizing the root problem - they have no foundation and it is built on sand.

Keep your mind in the future, in the now.

Last edited by aquarian1; January 10th, 2016 at 04:41 PM.
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  #19 (permalink)
The fun is in the numbers
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I wanted to highlight that if you have a strong belief foundation you will seek out the resources you need to build your system with the edge. You will read the right books and more importantly extract the key points. You will meet and engage with others who are positive and believe in success.

Many people can read a book on trading or a thread on a trading forum, perhaps understand on an intellectual level.
And only a few extract the key lesson and more importantly weave it into a knowing-understanding that strengthens and empowers their trading (and on trading system).

Keep your mind in the future, in the now.
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  #20 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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aquarian1 View Post
I wanted to highlight that if you have a strong belief foundation you will seek out the resources you need to build your system with the edge. You will read the right books and more importantly extract the key points. You will meet and engage with others who are positive and believe in success.

Many people can read a book on trading or a thread on a trading forum, perhaps understand on an intellectual level.
And only a few extract the key lesson and more importantly weave it into a knowing-understanding that strengthens and empowers their trading (and on trading system).


I like a quote by Linda Rashcke very similar to your post. It goes

" If you believe you can do something, you WILL eventually find a way."

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