Difficulty pulling the trigger/ performance anxiety - Psychology and Money Management | futures io social day trading
futures io futures trading


Difficulty pulling the trigger/ performance anxiety
Updated: Views / Replies:3,274 / 45
Created: by Papertrade Attachments:1

Welcome to futures io.

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

futures io is the largest futures trading community on the planet, with over 90,000 members. At futures io, our goal has always been and always will be to create a friendly, positive, forward-thinking community where members can openly share and discuss everything the world of trading has to offer. The community is one of the friendliest you will find on any subject, with members going out of their way to help others. Some of the primary differences between futures io and other trading sites revolve around the standards of our community. Those standards include a code of conduct for our members, as well as extremely high standards that govern which partners we do business with, and which products or services we recommend to our members.

At futures io, our focus is on quality education. No hype, gimmicks, or secret sauce. The truth is: trading is hard. To succeed, you need to surround yourself with the right support system, educational content, and trading mentors Ė all of which you can find on futures io, utilizing our social trading environment.

With futures io, you can find honest trading reviews on brokers, trading rooms, indicator packages, trading strategies, and much more. Our trading review process is highly moderated to ensure that only genuine users are allowed, so you donít need to worry about fake reviews.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading sites:
  • We are here to help. Just let us know what you need.
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive in our community.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, we can help you find it.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.

You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

Reply
 1  
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

Difficulty pulling the trigger/ performance anxiety

  #31 (permalink)
Elite Member
Las vegas NV
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TradeStation
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Papertrade's Avatar
 
Posts: 32 since Aug 2013
Thanks: 15 given, 16 received


Itchymoku View Post
Your conscious/subconscious are spiritual mechanisms and the entire universe is a manifestation of your own perception. Everyone you encounter is just a series of connected thoughts you have and doesn't represent the person from their perspective. The same is true about the market. He's not saying that intuition comes from some far off galaxy or anything like that. I think you have a lot of issues with religion that are probably interfering with your ability to understand what Mark is saying.

He doesn't say to blindly trust your intuition, but to rigorously question it to the extent that you understand exactly what you're feeling. intuition is mainly a creative vehicle for discovering types of patterns you can build confidence in and use later in your trading. If you watched the rest of the video you'll see how to decipher genuine intuition as opposed to noise generated by your mind to sabotage your efforts.

He separates conscious/subconscious from spiritual intuition that means it comes from somewhere outside of your mind (perception) but I'll keep watching tomorrow perhaps He'll clarify that as You said.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to Papertrade for this post:
 
  #32 (permalink)
Elite Member
Philadelphia
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: corded black telephone
Favorite Futures: ticker tape
 
Itchymoku's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,892 since Apr 2012
Thanks: 1,681 given, 3,622 received


Papertrade View Post
He separates conscious/subconscious from spiritual intuition that means it comes from somewhere outside of your mind (perception) but I'll keep watching tomorrow perhaps He'll clarify that as You said.

Maybe you are right, I didn't entirely pay attention to that part as I was laying down and might have been drifting off. Either way he even says himself that not everything will work for you, but he does give you the tools to figure out what does. The main thing that you want to do is be able to question your thoughts and supersede them with precise questions that confront the thoughts and to break processes down to their smallest increments.

One of the problems I had was that I simply didn't want to put forth the effort to work, it was like I was lazy. As a result I figured out if I first took the baby step and forced myself to open the software that I'd feel more apt to take a trade. It did work. I knew once I was in a trade I usually was fine. So I got in a habit of opening the software habitually when I had the thought and honestly sometimes I wouldn't trade. But just that conscious effort of taking a small step can have a positive chain reaction.

Many times the thought of doing something uncomfortable is more painful than the actual action of doing it.



Last edited by Itchymoku; October 13th, 2015 at 12:57 AM.
Reply With Quote
 
  #33 (permalink)
Elite Member
Philadelphia
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: corded black telephone
Favorite Futures: ticker tape
 
Itchymoku's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,892 since Apr 2012
Thanks: 1,681 given, 3,622 received

just for Roy


@srgtroy


Reply With Quote
 
  #34 (permalink)
Elite Member
Luxembourg, Luxembourg
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: TWS
Broker/Data: Interactive Brokers
Favorite Futures: Stocks
 
Posts: 491 since May 2012
Thanks: 1,641 given, 1,126 received


Papertrade View Post
Thanks for your input - I'm actually not bad predicting the main direction for the day or even few days and I think I'll end up as a long trerm/position daytrader but yeah I'm under capitalized for that but I'm also not bad at predicting short term moves so I'll stick with what I feel more comfortable for the moment (short term)

I can definitely understand why you wish to go that route. I can also understand that my post seems to be a bit off-base, i.e. I advise that changing your style might lead to a higher probability of success while not even knowing how you trade and not even remotely touching on the subject you asked about. So, what did I see in this thread that made me want to post that?

Firstly, the outcome of individual trades seems to be very important to you. If that was not true you would not have had your "meltdown". You give a couple of reasons why that may be, but no-one except you can figure out where the actual cause may lie. You do acknowledge that you don't mind losing money, but are afraid of being wrong. Without knowing you at all, I would guess that you equate being wrong to losing money at some level and that is causing you "discomfort".

So, this still does not explain why I posted what I did. If the thought of being wrong interferes with your trading, how do you get around that? Well, you could try setting up your trading in a way where you remove yourself from the equation. For instance, in my 1 trade-a-day, go-for-big-winners example, you may want to monitor the market until you see a possible trade (if there is no possible trade, you don't trade). At that point, you place your trade (with a reasonable stop) and walk away. When you then come back in the afternoon (or evening) to close the trade, you have essentially kept your emotions out of this for the entire day. You still need to place the trade, but this has the potential to lower your anxiety while in the trade itself allowing the trade more room to develop. Of course there is no guarantee of large winners and you can still be faced with lots of small losers, but that is part of the game.

If you are interested, read an interesting thought of Dr. Steenbarger here - https://futures.io/psychology-money-management/37354-steenbarger-you-market-s-bitch.html#post528019


Papertrade View Post
Actually the house's edge is the zero on the american roulette or 1/37 and zero and double zero on the European version or 2/38 .. sorry just messing around I got your point.

It is a pretty small edge, but when applied over a large number of players, the house tends to make money. Doesn't mean that an individual can't exploit the system, i.e. Ed Thorp did, but it is always something to be aware of.


Papertrade View Post
No the primary objective is to trade your plan without deviating and damaging your account as a result of that, if you have an edge odds are You'll be ahead after 100 trades.

This is something that I see quite often. People think that a large sample of trades can prove whether or not their "edge" is reliable. Firstly, in a casino you play against calculated odds. If the economy collapses tomorrow the these odds don't change. In the market, the odds change all the time. When markets are extended odds for certain trades change - placing the exact same type of trades during the start of a trend will lead to quite different outcomes.


grausch View Post
you need to find a method that works for you AND makes money. More often that not it requires a change in perspective.

Quoting myself here, but this is where it gets quite tricky. I know the triggers that cause me to experience discomfort, but it took quite a while to address that. Firstly, I did not want lower returns (no matter what the cost) and secondly, it took a while to make peace with the adjustments that were needed. You seem like a smart guy - and I think your issues have all been touched on, so no need for me to touch on them again. Up to you to explore them further and figure out / make peace with what needs to be done. Good luck in your journey.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users say Thank You to grausch for this post:
 
  #35 (permalink)
Elite Member
Las vegas NV
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TradeStation
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Papertrade's Avatar
 
Posts: 32 since Aug 2013
Thanks: 15 given, 16 received


grausch View Post
I can definitely understand why you wish to go that route. I can also understand that my post seems to be a bit off-base, i.e. I advise that changing your style might lead to a higher probability of success while not even knowing how you trade and not even remotely touching on the subject you asked about. So, what did I see in this thread that made me want to post that?

Firstly, the outcome of individual trades seems to be very important to you. If that was not true you would not have had your "meltdown". You give a couple of reasons why that may be, but no-one except you can figure out where the actual cause may lie. You do acknowledge that you don't mind losing money, but are afraid of being wrong. Without knowing you at all, I would guess that you equate being wrong to losing money at some level and that is causing you "discomfort".

So, this still does not explain why I posted what I did. If the thought of being wrong interferes with your trading, how do you get around that? Well, you could try setting up your trading in a way where you remove yourself from the equation. For instance, in my 1 trade-a-day, go-for-big-winners example, you may want to monitor the market until you see a possible trade (if there is no possible trade, you don't trade). At that point, you place your trade (with a reasonable stop) and walk away. When you then come back in the afternoon (or evening) to close the trade, you have essentially kept your emotions out of this for the entire day. You still need to place the trade, but this has the potential to lower your anxiety while in the trade itself allowing the trade more room to develop. Of course there is no guarantee of large winners and you can still be faced with lots of small losers, but that is part of the game.

If you are interested, read an interesting thought of Dr. Steenbarger here - https://futures.io/psychology-money-management/37354-steenbarger-you-market-s-bitch.html#post528019

How do You deal with reversal days like today? 16 pts run up and a 20 pts reversal and wasn't even a big range day comparing to last few weeks?



grausch View Post
It is a pretty small edge, but when applied over a large number of players, the house tends to make money. Doesn't mean that an individual can't exploit the system, i.e. Ed Thorp did, but it is always something to be aware of.

I don't know how's that even possible to exploit the roulette..maybe in the old days an unbalanced shaft or a table not level could affect the ramdomness of the outcome but I think They're all electronic these days.. I'll check on my next trip to the casinos.



grausch View Post
This is something that I see quite often. People think that a large sample of trades can prove whether or not their "edge" is reliable. Firstly, in a casino you play against calculated odds. If the economy collapses tomorrow the these odds don't change. In the market, the odds change all the time. When markets are extended odds for certain trades change - placing the exact same type of trades during the start of a trend will lead to quite different outcomes.

That's why I trade price action it naturally adapts to market changes



grausch View Post
Quoting myself here, but this is where it gets quite tricky. I know the triggers that cause me to experience discomfort, but it took quite a while to address that. Firstly, I did not want lower returns (no matter what the cost) and secondly, it took a while to make peace with the adjustments that were needed. You seem like a smart guy - and I think your issues have all been touched on, so no need for me to touch on them again. Up to you to explore them further and figure out / make peace with what needs to be done. Good luck in your journey.

It's all psychological I know I'll find the solution eventually.. Thanks I appreciated

Reply With Quote
 
  #36 (permalink)
Elite Member
Las vegas NV
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TradeStation
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Papertrade's Avatar
 
Posts: 32 since Aug 2013
Thanks: 15 given, 16 received


Itchymoku View Post
Maybe you are right, I didn't entirely pay attention to that part as I was laying down and might have been drifting off. Either way he even says himself that not everything will work for you, but he does give you the tools to figure out what does. The main thing that you want to do is be able to question your thoughts and supersede them with precise questions that confront the thoughts and to break processes down to their smallest increments.

One of the problems I had was that I simply didn't want to put forth the effort to work, it was like I was lazy. As a result I figured out if I first took the baby step and forced myself to open the software that I'd feel more apt to take a trade. It did work. I knew once I was in a trade I usually was fine. So I got in a habit of opening the software habitually when I had the thought and honestly sometimes I wouldn't trade. But just that conscious effort of taking a small step can have a positive chain reaction.

Many times the thought of doing something uncomfortable is more painful than the actual action of doing it.


Watched another hour, the exercises to gain access to your subconscious look interesting I'll get back to it in the weekend when I have more time I just think He should call it for what it is, there's nothing mystical about it, fortunately He didn't bring it back again (nor clarify what He meant)

Reply With Quote
 
  #37 (permalink)
Elite Member
Philadelphia
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: corded black telephone
Favorite Futures: ticker tape
 
Itchymoku's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,892 since Apr 2012
Thanks: 1,681 given, 3,622 received


Papertrade View Post
Watched another hour, the exercises to gain access to your subconscious look interesting I'll get back to it in the weekend when I have more time I just think He should call it for what it is, there's nothing mystical about it, fortunately He didn't bring it back again (nor clarify what He meant)

I didn't like his book trading in the zone because I thought it was too ambiguous and lacked any sort of concrete way to trade. I knew from experience that just trading on a whim when you're feeling good only leads to getting pissed off after a few losses. I was looking for some sort of pattern I could replicate. The only reason I read it was because of all the posts on here and elsewhere of people glorifying the book with such enthusiasm.

Little did I know back then what I know now. The only reason I was searching for a pattern was because I wasn't opening my eyes wide enough to see that the whole chart, and other time frames the chart is in, creates one unique interconnected pattern. This view didn't happen over night but took a long time.

Reply With Quote
 
  #38 (permalink)
Elite Member
Las vegas NV
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TradeStation
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Papertrade's Avatar
 
Posts: 32 since Aug 2013
Thanks: 15 given, 16 received


Itchymoku View Post
I didn't like his book trading in the zone because I thought it was too ambiguous and lacked any sort of concrete way to trade. I knew from experience that just trading on a whim when you're feeling good only leads to getting pissed off after a few losses. I was looking for some sort of pattern I could replicate. The only reason I read it was because of all the posts on here and elsewhere of people glorifying the book with such enthusiasm.

Little did I know back then what I know now. The only reason I was searching for a pattern was because I wasn't opening my eyes wide enough to see that the whole chart, and other time frames the chart is in, creates one unique interconnected pattern. This view didn't happen over night but took a long time.

Trading in the zone is on my Amazon save for later list, but I'll have to skip it now that I know his style, most of this books are full of prop up and little content on how to tackle your issues.

Reply With Quote
 
  #39 (permalink)
Flying In A Blue Dream
Jefferson City, Missouri
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: NinjaTrader Brokerage
Favorite Futures: CL ES
 
SatchFan's Avatar
 
Posts: 223 since Mar 2010
Thanks: 327 given, 200 received


Papertrade View Post
My inexperience trading live on intuition is probably the main reason I don't pull the trigger I miss the entry as I double/ triple check it while my first hunch was usually correct. Like I said before mental state is the main difference between sim and live trading. After My melt down I became a little suspicious on my ability to read the markets when in reality is just fear that clouds my mind.. I'll get over it eventually.

This is a prime example of what Mark talks about when he is talking about in the video I posted:
1. You have to learn to accept the randomness of the markets and the outcome of your edge.
2. You DO NOT have to KNOW what is going to happen next to make Consistent money in the markets.
3. Don't Think when the edge presents itself. Either the edge is present or it's not. If it's present, define your risk and profit potential and decide if it's worth taking the risk to find out if this happens to be the time your edge works or not. There is NO WAY to know in ADVANCE if this time happens to be THE TIME it works. Are you willing to accept the risk or not? Stop double and triple checking!
4. Start trading in "Sample Sizes". Take the next 20 trades without exception when your edge presents itself. Record all your trades and review. Tweak your process if needed and take another 20. Rinse and repeat.
5. Journal so you have a record of your emotions and thought process during all market environments. You will start to see trends in your own emotions and lack of discipline. Then you can work on correcting them.

Just as a side note: Your double and triple checking clearly signifies your lack of willingness to accept the randomness of the markets and any edge, including your own. If you think back to the weighted coin example in the video, the coin is weighted to land on heads aprox. 70% of the time. But in your way of thinking, you feel like you need to know if THIS FLIP is THE FLIP that is going to land on heads when you place a trade. Instead of accepting the randomness of the markets and your edge and just placing a trade when your edge shows up. That is of course IF the risk and profit potential of any given potential trade is good enough to make the trade. Please remember that by accepting the randomness of it all, this is how casino's make their money. They will write a check with a smile on their face when they have to pay out because they have accepted the randomness of it all and realize that they will make that back and more because they have an edge.

So I see you have posted that your not buying any of his books because he hasn't laid out all the steps to take in the video's. Well from my personal experience, I disagree. But to each their own. I will say this, the steps in the video are PLENTY to get you on the path to consistency. You don't need to buy the books, but it is nice to read and see what he went through and his thoughts and steps he took. But you don't have to buy the books. You just need a true desire to do the work and change your thought process towards trading. Do the steps to ingrain the steps needed to be taken when the edge presents itself. To take the sample size trades and see what can happen if you take all your trades without thinking and double/triple checking etc. The only thing you have to think about is your risk and profit potential. These steps are powerful enough to move the mountains that are in the way of you seeing the markets clearly. And I truly believe that!

Perception is everything! Whether you think you can, or you think you can not, YOUR RIGHT!

I'll just step aside now and leave you to your own journey...

Best Wishes,
SatchFan

Reply With Quote
The following 9 users say Thank You to SatchFan for this post:
 
  #40 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Boca Raton
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Variety
Broker/Data: Optimus Futures, LLC
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
mattz's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,059 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 1,933 given, 2,786 received
Forum Reputation: Legendary



Papertrade View Post

I could lose this small account money and life would go on normally I would just have to expand my business again which is fairly easy trough advertising (pool maintenance an repair, I did not advertise for the past 6 months as I wanted more time for trading) but the thought of failing again and probably have to give up trading altogether disturbs me

Why would you stop the expansion of your business, which sounds that it could be rather successful(?), and instead focus on an area where you need improvement. This is against the principles of trading, business and logic.
This is a personal issue, you do not owe me an explanation, never the less, if you have a successful business, trading decisions may weigh less on you psychologically, and potentially enable you to make better decision. Remember, scared money never wins. Just my 2 cents out of good intention.

Matt
Optimus Futures

There is a risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.
Reply With Quote
The following 8 users say Thank You to mattz for this post:

Reply



futures io > > > Difficulty pulling the trigger/ performance anxiety

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)

Jigsaw Trading: TBA

Elite only

FuturesTrader71: TBA

Elite only

NinjaTrader: TBA

Jan 18

RandBots: TBA

Jan 23

GFF Brokers & CME Group: Futures & Bitcoin

Elite only

Adam Grimes: TBA

Elite only

Ran Aroussi: TBA

Elite only
     

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Audio interview: "Pulling the Trigger" with Steenbarger, Hirschhorn and Dayton shodson Psychology and Money Management 5 November 13th, 2014 08:20 PM
Need A Programmer (Moderate Difficulty) dsperry Hire a Consultant or Programmer 0 April 14th, 2014 02:04 PM
Difficulty configuring TWS as historical data source for Multicharts pivotswinger Traders Hideout 8 September 9th, 2012 09:22 PM
Guest Post: Performance Anxiety Quick Summary News and Current Events 0 October 28th, 2011 04:10 PM
pulling th trigger cory Off-Topic 2 March 10th, 2010 04:38 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:23 AM.

Copyright © 2017 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts
Page generated 2017-12-17 in 0.19 seconds with 20 queries on phoenix via your IP 54.82.56.95