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Primary source of income: how many have made it?
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Primary source of income: how many have made it?

  #61 (permalink)
Elite Member
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tickvix View Post

I also use market profile. Do you use Value Areas for your S/R or you combine different days to arrive at your levels? Also, what is the significance of 1210 tick chart?


I do combine at the end of the week for next week but apart from that i use the globex session to represent the whole day and the regular session going from 9:30 to 4:15. So i use two profiles. I trade the 1min. opening range if the stars are aligned properly (away 3-9 points from yesterday's Value Area), VAL/VAH if we open within yesterday's Value Area. Also, singles, Naked POC, and buying/selling Ledges. Those are key areas i look for. When i get range extention then i go with the trend.

I use a tick chart as i have learned to read price action on that interval. I use indicators on my tick chart too. I mainly use the trigger lines indicator, MACD BB line, Inverse Fisher transform and the famous Particule Oscillator.

Here is my tick chart in action:
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  #62 (permalink)
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I pretty much use the same MP levels and setups. I also note very high volume and very low volume price levels over past 30 days or so as S/R zones.

Thanks for your reply.

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  #63 (permalink)
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jgreene View Post
What auto systems have you found that work well enough to make consistent money. I have tried several and not have had good results.


Jack, I haven't ignored you. Truth is, I forgot about this thread until I saw it on the hit parade in the top left corner of my screen.

The ATS I employ have been developed by me and coded by others who can easily understand what it is I hope to create. Sometimes, I will take a discretionary system from a place like (formerly BMT) and convert it into MATH (not emotion) and test it for consistency. If it has a chance to be profitable, which is not the norm, I will optimize it and then determine if it is worth trading live vis-a-vis other ATS in my bag. All my systems have to compete for my CASH.

ATS is no different than discretionary trading in that most methods/systems cannot produce a long term profit net of expenses, so please don't come away with the idea ATS is a walk in the park and an ATM because nothing could be further from the truth. It takes a lot of time, thought and expense to create one that will have consistent, long term success. In most respects, it's no different from any other business ventures (which also have similar failure rates).

If you decide to embark on this path, I suggest you stay away from markets like ES, where the pros feed on the amatuers and gaining an edge is nearly impossible.

Last edited by Zoethecus; July 1st, 2010 at 11:35 PM.
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  #64 (permalink)
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MetalTrade View Post
I know it sucks but if only 2% succeed, what the hell are we doing here ? 2% ?? Statisticly that's the same as NOBODY. Why are we so blind ?

These figures are all skewed though.
There are 6600 members of this board alone..130 people then fit this..
I actually would be sure its much lower than that just as far as being profitable and certainly 130 people do not make their living off trading alone unless they are 18 and live with their mom.
A lot of people go to casinos, most don't become professional gamblers.
The reason no one starts with 10k and becomes a pro is because of unrealistic expectations. Its not hard to save 50k with a job, single minded dedication to the goal and market returns at your back for 5-10 years.
Although, I think you have to be nuts to bridge jump a living off only a 50k roll trading.
Read some interviews on Mark Cook's start..lost all his and his mom's money and then worked on a farm for a few years to rebuild his roll. If you aren't willing to make that kind of commitment then you are probably wasting your time..
To me its like, what else am I going to do with my time.

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  #65 (permalink)
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1. Is trading your primary source of income? (Yes or no)
2. Do you make over $100k/year in trading (Over, under, NA)
3. How long did you trade prior to making trading your primary source of income - or if not primary income yet, number of years trading? (Approx. # hours on screen)

1. Since I'm married, and my wife brings in more money than me I guess the answer is no.
2. no, but I make money.
3. I quit a job working at a pharmaceutical company after 20 years. Was burned out and wanted to try something new. I had traded covered calls for around 5 years so I felt I knew what I was doing. Wrong!
I had been convinced over the phone I could make 500 - 1000 a day daytrading from a school in Mobile
Alabama. So I jumped in full time. Lost close to 100 grand in two years. Blown up 4 accounts. Next month
I will have traded full time for 3 years and can finally say I make more money than I lose. My goal everyday
is 100 - 200 dollars. I know this isn't great compared to some but its what I feel comfortable with. I like
trading the YM or the NQ. Like others have said its a hard road but worth it in the end. I love what I do
even though I only make wages. My goal is to be like Sharky one day. I was in a chatroom around 2 years
with real daytraders like Sharky and 2 of them made over a thousand a day. I have seen days were one
guy would make 32 grand in a single day. Funny thing is no one traded the same in the chat. And the chat
was made by us no one making any money off the chat. Was mainly so you wasn't all alone sitting at your
computer screen. I'm no longer in any chat and alot of days done before noon. Maybe in another four years
I''ll be like Sharky but for now instead of trying to to hit home runs my goal is to just get on base.


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  #66 (permalink)
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your comments seem very sincere and true. Thanks for sharing.

if you look further in the forum bunch of people jumped for simply my asking if Big Mike's source of income was trading since he is running this site, which i don't think he does for a charity.


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  #67 (permalink)
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Day Trading Fool View Post
I keep hearing the 95/5 percentage of failing/successful traders used. This sounds reasonable to me.

I found myself wondering - how many on this forum have been able to make trading their primary source of income?

So - assuming that this ratio (5/95 = 1/19) is fairly constant at any given time, and assuming that members of (formerly BMT) forum are representative of the playing field as a whole, how about a little poll?

And realizing that people have varying measures of primary income - and a little bit of trivia for me personally, and if you don't mind sharing - how many make over $100k/year?

Here we go:

1. Is trading your primary source of income? (Yes or no)
2. Do you make over $100k/year in trading (Over, under, NA)
3. How long did you trade prior to making trading your primary source of income - or if not primary income yet, number of years trading? (Approx. # hours on screen)

1) Y
2.) A bit under, not by much
3.) 3.5 years of HARD WORK!!!!! This is not an easy business and I believe it is WHY the large failure rate. By nature humans are not usually driven to work their tails off (blast me if you will) and we, including myself, wanted to believe in the "just buy my indicators and you'll be trading like a pro in two weeks." It is not true. It took me years of Commitment & Persistance.

Last edited by mmtrader4; August 1st, 2010 at 11:25 PM. Reason: mis-speeling
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  #68 (permalink)
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additional reply

I would like to add to my post yesterday, yes I do not post much but this is THE BEST forum on the internet for traders. Now that being stated:

I called my broker and asked about the stats of failed traders - he was a floor trader on the CBOT, is very experienced and had valuable input on this subject. Here is what he said as close to his answers as possible.

He said the 95 / 5 is probably very close to what he sees, however . . . he feels these numbers are greatly skewed due to the number of people that come into trading with visions of "raking in windfall profits in a few months on a $2K - 10K account". He joked (I think) and said some people want to make sure he has their address correct so the brokerage knows where to send the check. (you could hear his eyes rolling) He said they are your failed traders. Max out on contracts (leverage) not knowing what they are doing, blow out an account and say this doesn't work.
Those who will make it are those like myself, according to him, which was a heckuva compliment. Never blown an account and been with him 3.5 years learning, asking, being conservative coming to forums like Big Mike's asking questions no matter how ridiculous they may seem and growing the account slowly adding leverage as the account grows. He mentioned a key word which you've all heard before - DISCIPLINE!! Last thing he said was keep in mind we are trading against mega-computers which work on algorithms based on current market dynamics and have no emotion . . . emotions are a killer for us retail traders so with that he again said DISCIPLINE is the key for us.

So, I don't know if this helped, hurt or changed any minds about trading - but it seems to me yes, you can be a success but it takes a heckuva lot of time and dedication and DISCIPLINE.

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  #69 (permalink)
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Interesting. I'd like to know the stats for traders who stick with it for more than a certain period of time... like 5 years. That would also eliminate the ones who make an immediate windfall in a strong market, but get wiped out after a year or two when they learn that markets can also go down. (i.e. 1999). It seems that survival is the key to success. While I have wiped out many accounts, they were very small. It wasn't until I could not wipe it out that I decided to deposit enough money to get meaningful returns. Surprisingly it is so much harder to trade an undercapitalized account, that when you finally fund a real account, it seems easy by comparison.

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  #70 (permalink)
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Hi Slipknot511 -

Very thought provoking and great points made! I too have found it easier to trade the larger my account has grown. I don't know if it's partially psychological or what?? I like your line "survival is the key to success." Amen! I have been in the markets since the 80's in one way shape or form - first it was stocks and mutual funds through a broker, then onto no-load mutual funds, then options at which I did very well until I took advice of, ahem, my broker. STUPID ME!! Nobody to blame but the man in the mirror. He convinced me to get into a vertical with Sear's Holdings on the premise it was ready for a breakout long. Oops! thing tanked and from then my confidence was shot (unless it was just market dynamics eating me up). It was then I got into futures almost 4 years ago and man did my ignorance of futures run deep! Worst thing that EVER happened was instant success. Then I gave it all back, and additionally lost about 30 percent of my original capital. It was time to learn! So I am a product of survival, persistance, patience, commitment and HUMILITY (once I was trounced.)

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