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Primary source of income: how many have made it?


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Primary source of income: how many have made it?

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  #601 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
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<bump> this good thread topic for 2015.

I happened to see this related article:



Day Trading Salary - How much money can you really make?

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  #602 (permalink)
spsenator
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this thread has been going for 5 years and i have only seen about 2 people answer the SIMPLE question that was posted.
makes me wonder!!

1. Is trading your primary source of income? for now, yes (unemployed)

2. Do you make over $100k/year in trading (NO)

3. How long did you trade prior to making trading your primary source of income - or if not primary income yet, number of years trading? (been paper trading/swing trading for 5 years, unsuccessfully...recently took on day trading, lost half my account a few weeks ago, now going at it again one last time)

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  #603 (permalink)
 traderx4 
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The reason hardly anyone has posted is because many are loosing their accounts including myself.
After 8 years of trying this, I'm about to call it a day!


This market is simply rigged against day traders unless you can take longer term trades with a minimum of 500 pip
stops.It's simply no point in even attempting to be involved in this so called day trading pipe dream that most of us are lead to believe will give you consistent returns.

The market was NOT made for us small boys.
Unless you have insider info, you are going to struggle.

There may be traders here making money but they are but a few!!

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  #604 (permalink)
 Itchymoku 
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traderx4 View Post
The reason hardly anyone has posted is because many are loosing their accounts including myself.
After 8 years of trying this, I'm about to call it a day!


This market is simply rigged against day traders unless you can take longer term trades with a minimum of 500 pip
stops.It's simply no point in even attempting to be involved in this so called day trading pipe dream that most of us are lead to believe will give you consistent returns.

The market was NOT made for us small boys.
Unless you have insider info, you are going to struggle.

There may be traders here making money but they are but a few!!

Could you please explain what method(s) you attempted to use while trading 8 years? It's hard to verify such statements you've made without further investigating the reason why you lost. Why would you continue after year 1 if you didn't have any signs of success. If you kept losing what would make you stay for 8 years?

R.I.P. Joseph Bach (Itchymoku), 1987-2018.
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  #605 (permalink)
 traderx4 
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I did what most traders do.
I was excited when I first became a trader, then realized after some classic mistakes that this is going to take some work. (No problem with the learning curve).

After a few failed attempts, I took a break for a year and studied- read books etc.
Came back, refunded the account, joined trade room after trade room etc.

Continued trading, and making a little then giving it back, then make a little again, then gave more back!
Just about tried EVERY Method out there!

The reason I stayed in the business for eight years is I believed I could make a success of it!

Some traders have got a military discipline in order to succeed in this market. Unfortunately It's not something I posses.
I have to face the facts after trying to have a more disciplined approach I find I'm unable to exercise this on a daily basis successfully.

After this vicious cycle, I think my stress levels have finally taken it's toll, and have decided to become part of the 95%
failure statistic.

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  #606 (permalink)
 Itchymoku 
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traderx4 View Post
I did what most traders do.
I was excited when I first became a trader, then realized after some classic mistakes that this is going to take some work. (No problem with the learning curve).

After a few failed attempts, I took a break for a year and studied- read books etc.
Came back, refunded the account, joined trade room after trade room etc.

Continued trading, and making a little then giving it back, then make a little again, then gave more back!
Just about tried EVERY Method out there!

The reason I stayed in the business for eight years is I believed I could make a success of it!

Some traders have got a military discipline in order to succeed in this market. Unfortunately It's not something I posses.
I have to face the facts after trying to have a more disciplined approach I find I'm unable to exercise this on a daily basis successfully.

After this vicious cycle, I think my stress levels have finally taken it's toll, and have decided to become part of the 95%
failure statistic.

Have you tried trading where you simply place a target and stop and walk away until one or the other are hit? If discipline is your problem there are solutions for finding a less intensive system that doesn't require all of your attention during the trade, only the beginning. This in effect will build your discipline if you can withstand the urge to check on the trade's PnL.

R.I.P. Joseph Bach (Itchymoku), 1987-2018.
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  #607 (permalink)
 missionatsea 
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These posts are timely. I am approaching the time frame of going live within a few months. I currently hold a 1st shift job that destroys my love of life...so be it. It provides me with the essentials to survive and nothing more. Plans are to trade 3 hours before work, have a mobile account that I can peek at during work and watch for the rest of the evening. I have always had an eye to the market as my Dad worked at and held GE stock. Tried options 15 years ago and blew through a grand in 2 1/2 months...not bad for not knowing a thing. What I did do was chart 6 stocks in different colored inks on graph paper. Now I have the time and desire to pursue this game.
Last April, a trading platform was downloaded on my computer to begin my journey. Tried all kinds of setups, tweaking periods and what not. My guess is 50-50...not good. Put the toy down and started to research the markets themselves and how they work. Supply and demand makes the most sense as the biggest moves occur at the reversals of these levels. We need traders to come in AFTER us to push us to profitable levels, survive the pullbacks and sideways movements. If it goes against us, we have that cushion for getting in first and to bail with a smaller than expected profit. I find revengeful trading hides in my brain and at the time I do, it turns and heads the other way...never works. There is a newsletter written by a trading school online that dates back to 2005...I am now in the year 2009, and their trading core is supply and demand. I love it. Even took a break from here to concentrate on it as this is my first day back after 5 months. Trying to locate a trusted forex broker as I want to start my trading at a buck a move. Check out the British pound against the US dollar...sold off Feb 26, hitting exactly the supply that was evident from Jan 2.
Full time job, soon to be part time trader and of coarse the goal of full time trader. If it's only 5% making it, it is being done. My plan is to be included in that minority as the majority are freely giving it away.

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  #608 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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For anyone struggling, in my opinion it's likely because you have adopted a losing strategy that most retail traders seem to suffer from -- which is short-term scalping.

I've been sharing my trades, statements, PnL, statistics etc on my journal thread for the last few months. I've done this in an effort to demonstrate a different way to trade compared to how most retail thinks.

You can find it here:



Here is a snippet of February's stats:





Mike

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  #609 (permalink)
 traderx4 
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Big Mike View Post
For anyone struggling, in my opinion it's likely because you have adopted a losing strategy that most retail traders seem to suffer from -- which is short-term scalping.

I've been sharing my trades, statements, PnL, statistics etc on my journal thread for the last few months. I've done this in an effort to demonstrate a different way to trade compared to how most retail thinks.

You can find it here:



Here is a snippet of February's stats:





Mike


Mike, I've found out to my detriment, that short term sclping simply does NOT work in the long run!
I'm probably going to take a break for awhile, then look at what Itchymoku as advised- Looking at longer term swing trading trading. Just place the trades and walk away for two to three months with a 500 pip SL. Probably more my style!

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  #610 (permalink)
 Itchymoku 
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traderx4 View Post
Mike, I've found out to my detriment, that short term sclping simply does NOT work in the long run!
I'm probably going to take a break for awhile, then look at what Itchymoku as advised- Looking at longer term swing trading trading. Just place the trades and walk away for two to three months with a 500 pip SL. Probably more my style!

lol I dk about walking away for 2-3 months. That's a little too far out there imo. I would definitely suggest to aim for something on the day to day time frame. Remember there is news that comes out that can be impossible to predict the volatility spikes. Fundamentals change with forex from day to day. What you're suggesting is more on the lines of investing but you have the concept right about walking away.

Good luck,
Itchymctofu

R.I.P. Joseph Bach (Itchymoku), 1987-2018.
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  #611 (permalink)
 grausch 
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traderx4 View Post
Mike, I've found out to my detriment, that short term sclping simply does NOT work in the long run!
I'm probably going to take a break for awhile, then look at what Itchymoku as advised- Looking at longer term swing trading trading. Just place the trades and walk away for two to three months with a 500 pip SL. Probably more my style!

I have not yet met a trader that consistently makes profit short-term scalping. Actually, all of them have blown accounts, and most are struggling to just break even. They all dream of getting consistent results while failing to acknowledge that perhaps the market is not willing to give them these consistent results.

Regarding the walking away bit, it could lead to some missed trades. Equity markets went nowhere in 2012, but suddenly perked up in Dec 2012. 2013 was a great year, and missing that initial upswing would have been detrimental to the 2013 returns. For my style of trading, missing that initial upswing is not very nice. Perhaps monitoring the markets outside of market hours or over weekends may work better. Granted, you still need to trade your plan and not interfere with it which can be tough if you monitor your trades at all.

Based on the above, it can be seen that riding out positions can be quite tough. There is always an urge to protect profits which means you miss out on potential large gains. These large gains are literally what kept my portfolio alive over the years. If I take those away, my performance would be really terrible.

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  #612 (permalink)
 traderx4 
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Thanks for your advise guys, but the stress of trading and loosing just lately is just simply killing me.
Best I just walk away for awhile and engage my brain in doing something else. The markets will always be there if and when I decide to return.

A man can only take so much kicking before he has to put his hand up.
A trader said to me awhile back that it is no shame if you have to take a break!!


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  #613 (permalink)
 grausch 
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traderx4 View Post
Thanks for your advise guys, but the stress of trading and loosing just lately is just simply killing me.
Best I just walk away for awhile and engage my brain in doing something else. The markets will always be there if and when I decide to return.

A man can only take so much kicking before he has to put put his hand up.
A trader said to me awhile back that it is no shame if you have to take a break!!


I also stepped away from the markets in the past. Helped me put things in perspective and come back with a) more realistic expectations, and b) a much more concrete plan.

One thing I would suggest though, is even if you don't trade now, try and save up as much capital as you can. If you then restart trading, you will have a decent bankroll, and if you don't then at least you have some rainy day savings.

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  #614 (permalink)
 traderx4 
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webart View Post
The figures come from brokers, actually the figures for those that make money for more than a year are 98%/2% according to a CBOT lecture I was listening too ... and they should know.

Yes, how it works, is the professional traders, get there money from the newbies, and there is a constant supply of newbies into the market convinced by the marketing of the educators (who also feed on the newbies) that they will be able to make a living using their $5000 account. The market works by offering Hope, but not delivering what was Hoped for, that is what keeps the market moving.

The problem with making a living out of it, is the amount of capital you really need to have to handle draw downs and to give yourself the leverage you need and that's assuming you know what your doing (which takes years). When your under capitalized you have scared money, so you run tight stops and make poor decisions.

If you can make 2% per month consistently, then you are up there with the best traders.

And no, I don't make 100K per year from trading !

There are much easier ways to make money than from trading.


How True...Some one has worked out how this Industry actually works!!

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  #615 (permalink)
 traderx4 
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Slipknot511 View Post
This makes sense because a small account always forces traders to overtrade in an attempt to get meaningful returns.
When you have a sufficiently funded account, it's easy to be patient and disciplined, because you know that one good trade is going to pay the bills. When you have a small account and you see you only made $100 for all that hard work, there is immense pressure to continue trading... often giving back most of your profits.

Another true statement!!!

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  #616 (permalink)
 missionatsea 
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traderx4 View Post
The reason hardly anyone has posted is because many are loosing their accounts including myself.
After 8 years of trying this, I'm about to call it a day!


This market is simply rigged against day traders unless you can take longer term trades with a minimum of 500 pip
stops.It's simply no point in even attempting to be involved in this so called day trading pipe dream that most of us are lead to believe will give you consistent returns.

The market was NOT made for us small boys.
Unless you have insider info, you are going to struggle.

There may be traders here making money but they are but a few!!

traderx4:

Shoot, as a newbie looking to soon enter the trading arena, this is a post I really not need to read. Man, I sure feel for you. All the hard work invested for so long. Sure rooting that this break gets you back in the game.

Currently I am practice trading. I will begin my trading as I continue to work 1st shift. This will allow me to begin trading without scared money. Also, with the small lots available to trade, this gives me the opportunity to begin with a small account.

No, this is not my primary income.
N/A to the $100,000 (50,000 would be a big number).
2,200 hours invested so far.

Living in the U.K., I'd think you could be shorting your currency as the USD continues it's strong move long.

Tim



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  #617 (permalink)
 MacroNinja 
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Hmm...after skimming through this thread, I decided that an alternative take on this issue might be helpful.

Now I would suspect that my aggregate account values are much larger than the average participant in these forums. (If I were to hazard a guess by reading the trading journals, a $50k account is already at the top end of the spectrum of account sizes at futures.io (formerly BMT), and if I'm testing a strategy with live funds, that's already about the minimum amount a strategy gets tested in a live environment for me).

Despite this, a successful track record, and also devoting a considerable amount of time to trading, I would not consider trading to be my "primary" source of income, because the "trading" funds never get withdrawn because they are re-invested in investment accounts in the truest since of the word. Other sources of investment income and consulting fees pay the bills and put the food on the table so to say.

I would say though, that perhaps the biggest psychological edge I have over normal retail traders is being able to treat trading as a secondary source of income rather than primary.

A good analogy would be this: let's imagine that we lived in a primitive society. My neighbor is a nomad hunter and therefore must find something to hunt and kill in order to eat. I have a farm, and can also choose to hunt. Let's assume the farm in this analogy provides a steady source of food that I can just harvest something from the fields and droughts are not a concern.

The farm affords me the luxury of not having a lot of psychology issues. When I decide to pick up a bow and arrow to go hunt, I don't have to take very many risks. I can patiently wait until a very slow, nonthreatening, and fat animal comes across my path before I decide to waste any energy, because worst case scenario, I can go home and earn corn instead of starving and picking fight with a big bull or big bear.

However, my neighbor that only has a single source of food from hunting, has to be successful in his/her hunt every day/week. No success that day = no food. This makes my neighbor more prone to taking risks I wouldn't have to take. Maybe it's being forced to chase small game instead of big game, or picking a fight with a big dangerous bear just to get food. But on a per hunt basis, maybe 95% of my hunts will be successful because I can afford to be patient for the easy prey, but my neighbor can't.

So this is all to say that having a primary source of income outside of trading provides a huge psychological edge.

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  #618 (permalink)
 missionatsea 
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But the farm DOES indeed encounter foul weather: be it drought, saturation or just too cool...and harvest is not what it should be.
Been there, done that.

Tim

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  #619 (permalink)
anthony667
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PandaWarrior View Post
I have about 1200 hours of screen time. I think its more but not really sure at this point. A lot of it was spent jumping around from trading room to trading room and trying different indicators. This means that of the 1200 hours of screen time, I really have only about 200 hours per method. This is not good. However, I dumped the trading rooms a month ago, got down to business developing my own methods and now have about 200 hours on my OWN method. i am getting comfortable with it.

As to the money part, I have not made any money yet. But I have not blown up an account yet either.Yes I've lost money but not enough to get me out of the game.

I know the odds are against me, but in business, the odd are always against you. I came from an industry where even in the good times with money growing on trees, the wash out rate over 5 years was 95%. I managed to make it into the top 20% of all performers in the country. It took me 3 years to do it but I did it. And I will do it again with trading.

I too like Sharky, paid thousands of dollars for training and mentor-ship in my previous career. It paid dividends like I never imagined it would. In trading, I am getting my education by reading everything I can get my hands on, participating in forums like this one and spending as much time in front of the market as possible. In the end, like every thing else that has enormous profit potential, trading is simple, not easy. I am trying my best to simplify everything I have read and learned into a simple (not easy) to understand and execute trading methodology.

The most difficult question for me to answer is how to find a mentor thats not a scammer. Its more easy to teach 100 students at $5000 tuition a pop (thats half a million dollars a year) than actually day trade. Ive come across quite a few vendors and all they teach is something like "after your price breaks through the midband of your bollinger and comes back to midband take trade in direction of the market"....Personally I only want to trade Futures and I cant seem to get beyond break even on a net monthly basis.

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  #620 (permalink)
anthony667
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siewen View Post
Hello all,

1 - No, but the true answer is: I would like to be a good trader, lets say earning enough to live from it.
2 - No I never earn anything from real trading, I am mostly on SIM and looking for a new strategy. I try more times real money ( 3 times) but each time that I had a lost of money, then I was feeling not good. I think all of you know this strange feeling. Now I will trade without any feelings, meaning my strategy is there, i go into the market, CAUSE i know i can trust the strategie.

I trade something like 8-9 months now on SIM, trading the ES but now I will change it to the YM. I do not trust the ES anymore, and I feel better in the YM. I started to trade with indicators, a lot of them, so much that i can not see the market anymore. but now i deleted all and i trade lets say without any. from time to time i look on BigMike forum to see if an indicator can help me but i am not an indicator-freak anymore.

I use also this post to say THANKS to Mike for the forum, but also THANKS to all traders too. I really learned a lot here. AND I hope i will continue like this...

Sorry I continue the post regarding the hours on screen. it is really hard to say. 8 months ca, 8-10 hours per day. week end looking to ananlyse strategie and creating a new one. lets say minimum 200 hours per month, ca 1500 hours in 8 months (i cut holidays day and day i do something else). like i say 200 hours per month is the minimum. But actually it is more 12-13 hours per day on the screen.


Frederic

Ive lost all faith in indicators, even if they work its only in certain market conditions for each indicator...there has to be a simpler solution than mastering an indicator. Usually the most genius solutions are the simplest!

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  #621 (permalink)
 deaddog 
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anthony667 View Post
The most difficult question for me to answer is how to find a mentor thats not a scammer. Its more easy to teach 100 students at $5000 tuition a pop (thats half a million dollars a year) than actually day trade. Ive come across quite a few vendors and all they teach is something like "after your price breaks through the midband of your bollinger and comes back to midband take trade in direction of the market"....Personally I only want to trade Futures and I cant seem to get beyond break even on a net monthly basis.

A mentor will not teach you a winning method, a mentor will guide you to develop a method that will fit your personality.

Keep asking yourself "WHY"; Why do you only want to trade futures?

"The days when I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations, I have really good days" RW Hubbard
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 missionatsea 
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anthony667 View Post
Ive lost all faith in indicators, even if they work its only in certain market conditions for each indicator...there has to be a simpler solution than mastering an indicator. Usually the most genius solutions are the simplest!


Sounds as if you are trading live where as I am not. Started market replay using indicators and did not improve my positions much. I have opted for supply and demand as my core strategy. Longer term trading without the anxiousness of scalping for a few. Can I say it is more forgiving? Plenty of info on the net about it and the only indicator I use from time to time is a horizontal line. Thing about Bollinger bands, it can give me a heads up, but it won't whisper in my ear when that next candle is going to turn. Only price can do that.

Tim

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 PandaWarrior 
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anthony667 View Post
The most difficult question for me to answer is how to find a mentor thats not a scammer. Its more easy to teach 100 students at $5000 tuition a pop (thats half a million dollars a year) than actually day trade. Ive come across quite a few vendors and all they teach is something like "after your price breaks through the midband of your bollinger and comes back to midband take trade in direction of the market"....Personally I only want to trade Futures and I cant seem to get beyond break even on a net monthly basis.


Finding a legit mentor can be tough....there are several recognized traders that provide coaching and instructional services but those can be very limited AND quite pricey....Micheal Martin comes to mind.....I think he's in the $3000 range...can't quite remember to be fair but I know its up there.

The other option is to follow a known successful trader here on the forum. There are a couple that trade regularly and post their results and thought processes. Some of those require reading mountains of superficial nonsense to get to the meat but could be worth it for you.

Another idea is to ask someone if you can trade with them via skype or something like that to get a feel for how they approach the market. This is hit and miss depending on the person and how good they are.

Or you can simply get in front of the charts and just observe price action for several months until you are comfortable with how your instrument moves and then start trading small and build up.

If you are in fact break even most months, you are ahead of the pack. I suspect one of the main things you probably need to do is learn money management AND learn to let your winners run a bit more.

These two things will most likely improve your results tremendously.

Cheers and good luck.

Note: If you are willing to relocate, SMB in NYC could be a great place to go and learn. A buddy recently went there and is doing great so far.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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anthony667
Franklin Lakes NJ
 
 
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PandaWarrior View Post
Finding a legit mentor can be tough....there are several recognized traders that provide coaching and instructional services but those can be very limited AND quite pricey....Micheal Martin comes to mind.....I think he's in the $3000 range...can't quite remember to be fair but I know its up there.

The other option is to follow a known successful trader here on the forum. There are a couple that trade regularly and post their results and thought processes. Some of those require reading mountains of superficial nonsense to get to the meat but could be worth it for you.

Another idea is to ask someone if you can trade with them via skype or something like that to get a feel for how they approach the market. This is hit and miss depending on the person and how good they are.

Or you can simply get in front of the charts and just observe price action for several months until you are comfortable with how your instrument moves and then start trading small and build up.

If you are in fact break even most months, you are ahead of the pack. I suspect one of the main things you probably need to do is learn money management AND learn to let your winners run a bit more.

These two things will most likely improve your results tremendously.

Cheers and good luck.

Note: If you are willing to relocate, SMB in NYC could be a great place to go and learn. A buddy recently went there and is doing great so far.

Thanks for the advice, Actually I live 15 min from NYC !

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anthony667
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deaddog View Post
A mentor will not teach you a winning method, a mentor will guide you to develop a method that will fit your personality.

Keep asking yourself "WHY"; Why do you only want to trade futures?

Advantages of Futures:
-Better taxation
-Better liquidity and less slip
-More difficult to manipulate compared to stocks
-Good leverage

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 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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anthony667 View Post
Advantages of Futures:
-Better taxation
-Better liquidity and less slip
-More difficult to manipulate compared to stocks
-Good leverage

I'd totally agree with number 1
Number 2 is debatable - Gold has high volume, but awful slippage (I was slipped 5 points on a 2 lot market order a few weeks ago)
Number 3 is debatable - Silver, Cattle, Hogs, Nat Gas - just to name a few - have been manipulated over the years
I'd agree with number 4, although many people don't realize that leverage is a double edged sword. Leverage can be really, really dangerous


I'd add number 5: Easier record keeping for taxes

For futures taxation, the overall tax rate is much lower than for stocks (point #1), and record keeping (point #5) is a breeze - I only have to enter 2 numbers on Form 6781 every year. I don't have to worry about holding periods, wash sales, etc.

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 DavidHP 
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Vinci View Post
Can I plug the name of my discord group for you to check if you want to learn from my mentor there? I got better result now with my trades after following his method. I'm still doing paper trade as he want me to still improve my accuracy with the trade setup.

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk

I doubt @anthony667 will see this.
The last time he was on Futures.io was in 2015.

Thanks for the post perhaps it will help someone else.

Rejoice in the Thunderstorms of Life . . .
Knowing it's not about Clouds or Wind. . .
But Learning to Dance in the Rain ! ! !
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JeffNLisa
Apple Valley, CA
 
 
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DavidHP View Post
I doubt @anthony667 will see this.
The last time he was on Futures.io was in 2015.

Thanks for the post perhaps it will help someone else.

Well it can't now, because he deleted it!

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 TradingOgre 
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Day Trading Fool View Post
Here we go:

1. Is trading your primary source of income? (Yes or no)
2. Do you make over $100k/year in trading (Over, under, NA)
3. How long did you trade prior to making trading your primary source of income - or if not primary income yet, number of years trading? (Approx. # hours on screen)


1. Yes
2. Yes, Over
3. about 6 years. Every waking free moment was spent in front of the screen. Simulation trading, demo trading, live trading, etc. I would wake up at 1 a.m. so I could catch the Frankfurt open at 2 and traded until I had to leave for work. Then I would come home, eat (usually in front of the screen) and review the market moves during the day. On weekends I would practice using historical data and an EA for Metatrader that actually didn't do anything. It allowed me to use the strategy tester as a trading simulator. Main thing is I didn't give up.

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