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p549-nakachalet also absent-mindedly missed post #292
p554--Rad4633, also missed post #292, too?
p559-linds:
1 no
2 under
3 three years learning trading and counting - probably about 4000 hrs
p560-lornz: a very good observation indeed, pls refer to p#292....
--------------------------
well, it takes me only about 5 hrs to tabulate the aforementioned.
the poster was happy that there was a trader named LORILEY, post #292, from thailand, volunteeringly posted his/her broker statements. if you happen to forget, the original questions were:
1. Is trading your primary source of income? (Yes or no)
2. Do you make over $100k/year in trading (Over, under, NA)
3. How long did you trade prior to making trading your primary source of income - or if not primary income yet, number of years trading? (Approx. # hours on screen)
and post #292 is posted here in its entirety for your convenience:
Trading Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja trader
Broker/Data: Zen Fire
Favorite Instrument: CL FDAX 6E 6B 6A 6N TF GC SI
Posts: 7 since Jun 2010
Thanks: 0 given, 33 received
yes I,m making big money
I,m one of those traders that are making what some would call big money from trading, $8215 gross profit last week, $7000 the week before, these are average weeks. Here are my broker statements for last week.
& yes I,m consistant only one losing day in the last six weeks.
Please don,t PM me & ask for my method , even if I gave it away most people would still loose money with it
because it requires you to know how to trade. That means knowing your instrument , knowing what the average daily ranges are & knowing when it is likely to turn. I use indicators , price action & divergence all together.
Some of the indicators on big mkes are great so don,t rubbish them they do help me make money. The price action swing indictor is good especially the ABC patterns it prnts., jeffs cci, is great for trend continuation longs, after the zero line cross. Feltons indicators are good for divergence counter trend setups. Some of the pivot indicators are helpful.
I spent over 6000 hours before I became consistant, confident & the fear went away.
I offer this as inspiration to keep going forward & learning to struggling traders, many nasayers told me to give up & quit in the first 3 years. I always believed I would make it. I,m a believer in you get what you expect.
So expect you will make it , hold the thought, hold the dream & keep praticing in sim & market replay over & over untill you prove to yourself that you have the skill to make it as a trader. Good luck to all regards LOR.
OH DEAR ME, there is a notice saying that i am only allowed 16 graphics and that my post contains 21. alright, i shall split up the post into part 1 and part 2 then.... hope it works....
Can you help answer these questions from other members on NexusFi?
i'll volunteer to make a tally for everyone, even if it takes me all night, LOL
Linds [IMG]https://nexusfi.com/styles/bigmike/buttons/viewpost.gif[/IMG]
Hi Nakachalet
I appreciate what you are saying - it has been said adinfinitum ..the argument against providing 'proof' etc. However the OP has not requested proof so it is not required here. The OP simply posed 3 questions
1. Is trading your primary source of income? (Yes or no)
2. Do you make over $100k/year in trading (Over, under, NA)
3. How long did you trade prior to making trading your primary source of income - or if not primary income yet, number of years trading? (Approx. # hours on screen)
This doesnt require coming out of a cave or disclosing holy grail secrets does it?
for me it is
1 no
2 under
3 three years learning trading and counting - probably about 4000 hrs
i shall attempt to make a tally from p1 (post1) to the very last post which currently is yours, ok?
on saturday, may 2, 2010 at 12:08pm; an entity named Day Trading Fool, a general member at southwest usa wrote:
Primary source of income: how many have made it? I keep hearing the 95/5 percentage of failing/successful traders used. This sounds reasonable to me.
I found myself wondering - how many on this forum have been able to make trading their primary source of income?
So - assuming that this ratio (5/95 = 1/19) is fairly constant at any given time, and assuming that members of nexusfi.com (formerly BMT) forum are representative of the playing field as a whole, how about a little poll?
And realizing that people have varying measures of primary income - and a little bit of trivia for me personally, and if you don't mind sharing - how many make over $100k/year?
Here we go:
1. Is trading your primary source of income? (Yes or no)
2. Do you make over $100k/year in trading (Over, under, NA)
3. How long did you trade prior to making trading your primary source of income - or if not primary income yet, number of years trading? (Approx. # hours on screen)
"An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made, in a narrow field."
- Niels Henrik David Bohr
p3 or post3--From trading ? not me.
p4-And no, I don't make 100K per year from trading !
p5- I had ups (+$100K years) and downs
p6-the poster himself/herself answered thusly: Day Trading Fool--
1. No
2. NA
3. Approx. 200 hours live screen trading, countless on backtesting and messing around trying to find the right indicator....
p8-a response from big mike himself thusly:
....I earn my living from trading and I will never do anything else again. I've worked for myself for a long time before trading, and while its liberating to be your own boss, it is even more liberating to be a successful trader.
p10- No
p11-i make about 30-50 k a month
p18-not my primary income. Have never made anything that I kept.
p22- Yes
p23-I have about 1200 hours of screen time....As to the money part, I have not made any money yet. But I have not blown up an account yet either.
p24-No, but....
p25-....in trading for about 40 days, I've made $3200 on making one or two trades before work using a single contract. It really is enjoyable, but I doubt I will ever rely on it for a living.
p26-No - not yet, but this is my long term ambition.
p30-I just hope that you guys realise that if you really want to earn money, you should not be daytrading.
p32-Just keep in mind, just because you cannot do something, doesn't mean it cannot get done.
p33-58--lot of members coming to defend big mike....
p59-Usually in trading, those who know don't talk, and those who talk don't know. ( Al Brooks)
Don't be a dick for a tick (Sun Tzup)
p65-2. no, but I make money.
p67-1) Y
2.) A bit under, not by much
3.) 3.5 years of HARD WORK!!!!!
p68-but it seems to me yes, you can be a success but it takes a heckuva lot of time and dedication and DISCIPLINE.
p72- NO
p73- William Hershey went bankrupt twice before finally succeeding at creating Hershey chocolate.
Henry Ford was bankrupted five times in his effort to create the Ford Motor Company
RH Macy lost 7 stores before finally launching Macy's in New York
Walt Disney went bankrupt several times before Disneyland
"Harry Potter" was rejected by 12 publishers. Gone With the Wind: rejected 36 times
If anything it's encouragement to get back up after our failures and try again. Never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever give up.
p74-I've missed more than 9,000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed.-- Michael Jordan
p75-1. Yes.
2. Can't say.
3. Spent nearly a decade in financial markets. Which includes Blowing up account to regain and again blow up. Then left thinking about Rocket Science. Started trading with Simplest way of thinking and put it into action. Took me some months/years infact to get trades profitable more then 90% now ( Discretionary trading with ease of self coded indicators as per my understanding of market ).
p77-Yes
p81-Day Trading Fool--This thread has generated a lot of response - not exactly of the character I anticipated, but pretty cool nonetheless.
I never made the entrepreneur/trader fail rate connection, but that makes a lot of sense.
I made the decision to go back to paper trading - and committed to do it for a maximum of the next two years. Everyday. I expect that things will start clicking sooner, but if I can't get it by then, I will move onto something else.
p86-Have been CFD trading for a couple of years - made 100K in less than the first year - then changed my trading strategy and lost most of it.
p88-can't remember which forum a survey was done on successful traders; but what was gleaned is that approx 70% took 1 - 3 yrs to succeed and about 15% took 6months and the other 15% took 3 - 5 yrs to succeed --- maybe this is a healthier way to look at it.
p90-Hello Everyone,
1. No
2. No
3.Still working on that but for now my wife works and I spend hours everyday developing and testing that fits my style and my bank roll.
p112-I stood in the bond pit for 25 years with about 700 other traders, and saw literally thousands of traders come and go over that time period. I've been around traders every day of my life for close to 40 years, and I can tell you there is an amazing disparity in P&Ls, between the really successful traders and the merely successful traders. So what is it, that makes one trader more successful than another, all things being relatively equal?
Quite simply, it's a mental edge. Its part confidence, part pride, part drive, but make no mistake, I never met a really good trader that didn't possess these qualities.
p115-Here's the thing with a majority of successful independent traders, you'll never know of them. These "successful" traders have a specific routine every day. They make their trades following the predetermined rules and they're done. They don't announce to the world of their success. They don't post the p&l online, etc. They don't give away their edge. They just do their "factory work" every trading day/week/month and are happy to do so and live on with life.
p116-Day Trading Fool--I don't know about everyone else, but I dove into trading, signed up for an account, started looking at charts and went for it. Trading is dreadfully simple. Buy when it looks like things are going up and sell when it looks like they are coming down. I tripled my account in 2 weeks. Pfft. The next week I loss 50% of the account value over the course of two days....
p121-For me... I can live perfectly fine on $200 / day. Anything after that, I am a wealthy man..
p122-$200 / day is definitely doable
p123-Yes
Yes
2 Years over 40K in losses this is year 4 and second year on pace to make more than 100K (Knock on wood)
p133-No
No
About 1-2 hours for the first couple of years and 3-5 hours in the last 2-3 years. (damn that's a lot time)
p134-1. NO
2. NO
3. Not found that yet
p137-Hard 8 said--95% lose and 100% of those who claim they made it are liars.
p139-1. Yes
2. Not yet
3. About 3000 hours. But in the early days most of that was probably just nervous tick-watching as price went against me.
p140-1. No, I don't think it'll ever be.
2. Not yet.
3. As I say, trading never be my "primary income",
p147-1. Yes, for 24 years.
2. On average, over $100K
3. It took me three years to become consistent. See my previous reply.
p172-1. Yes, for 24 years.
2. On average, over $100K
3. It took me three years to become consistent. See my previous reply.
p231-59 posts went by without a word mentioned about this original thread.... LOL Hello
1 yes
2 yes but not every year
it took 2 years and a lot of capital....
p236-"235 posts whats the score?"
"Primary source of income: how many have made it?".
The PNL is in the red, same as the overall odds?... or was this meant to be a rhetorical question?
p249-1) No its not my primary income
2) Nope. I make less that $100k/year from it although I do profit.
3) I spend between 2 and 3 hours a day trading.
p279-
Quoting
I mean come on, your making your living from trading, and your hanging around here? That doesn't even sound right, Come on....!!!
(jstnbrg) I have not yet made a living trading on the screen but I made more in my best year in the pits than most people make in a lifetime (and I never had a losing year in the 16 years I spent in the pits and had very few losing months). I would be on this site even if I were still making that kind of money. There are some very smart people here.
p281-Shove it in your face I do not believe their is one person who is a member of this web site that get's his money from trading. That's my opinion. But I back it up with the fact that not one person can prove it.
p284-1. Is trading your primary source of income?: Yes.
2. Do you make over $100k/year in trading? Yes.
3. How long did you trade prior to making trading your primary source of income?: 5 years.
4. Number of years trading?: 10 years.
---------------------------------------------- p292-yes I,m making big money
I,m one of those traders that are making what some would call big money from trading, $8215 gross profit last week, $7000 the week before, these are average weeks. Here are my broker statements for last week.
& yes I,m consistant only one losing day in the last six weeks.
Please don,t PM me & ask for my method , even if I gave it away most people would still loose money with it because it requires you to know how to trade.... ----------------------------------------------
======================================================================== p293-bobbyacim, the question originator:
So much so that I had a thread called "ten-thousand in education and still not profitable" over 10,000 saw it and no one could produce the kind of evidence that you just have!!!!!
To it I have started " ten thousand in education finally paying off" however I have not really been able to OWN this statement as of YET.
I have 6 years/5000 hours at this, tried every ebook, system, course, trading room I could think of. Diveregnce was the only thing that I could count on, but alas, I could not maintain the precision it requires to make it a profitable play.
Loriley, this is one human being that will forever be in your debt for illuminating the overhang of dispair with concrete, evidence based proof that THIS IS REALLY AND TRUELY DO-ABLE!!!!!
I am going to make your broker statements my wallpaper on my PC !!!!!!!!!
Sincerely in awe,
bobbyacim [IMG]https://nexusfi.com/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
======================================================================== p296-Gave up paid employment Xmas 1997. Previously traded intermittently for several years, during which I studied tutorial after tutorial (free online ones) to find what approaches suited me best.
Now into Year 14. Better than any proper job I ever had.
Having found I could make a living without being sat at the desk day in day out, I trade actively for 4 months each year (the darker colder months, Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb) and only occasionally during the other 8 months when life takes priority. I trade small/medium UK stocks only....
p314-But over the years I have met with several forum traders who I now count as friends out there in the real world.We know each other well enough to exchange details of how we trade. So yes, Skyfly, we do exist - but you are of course perfectly entitled to disbelieve if you want - and I take no offence at you doing so. [IMG]https://nexusfi.com/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
p320-mmtrader4 saying:
skyfly [IMG]https://nexusfi.com/styles/bigmike/buttons/viewpost.gif[/IMG] The Truth is that not one person on this nexusfi.com (formerly BMT) is willing to produce anything that proves they have made it. However they are all willing to make indicators, and write their journals, and "join the elite" team. And those same people will defend themselves by saying " I do not have to prove anything to you"!
p377-now do i make over 100k a year trading in this moment yes did i always make those numbers certainly not....
p391-I trade for living and trading is my only source of livelihood for many years. It took me about 3 years to become a consistantly profitable trader.
p540-fat tails:
It looks like there are no traders who earn enough money to live from their trading efforts.
@nakachalet I commend you on your hard work, I wish all lengthy threads were updated like you have done>
This might be my last reply to a thread like this because it might be taken in the wrong way when one responds>
For me this is how I see business doesnt matter what type same rule applies:
1) 3yr payback on initial investment before profitable is a good business for me
2)100K is in top 5% of small bus 500K is in 1% and 1m is .05 percent these are my numbers in my head
so I apply same numbers here to trading, risk is risk>Loss is loss >reward is reward.....
This being said I dont need to know what anyone else makes, what % up or down they are, how long they have been doing it. 1) and 2) has given me all I need
Hey Best Wishes to all, and Happy Hoildays
Santa coming soon!
Past PNL means something but the best way to know and its a fun way too is to engage in real time.. I've always suggested a live trade room where traders can post their thoughts, levels and calls in real time and we'll see very quickly who's who in there but often many are scared to post their thoughts in real time.. I have no problems with it. I share my macro calls, levels, trades and targets with no quams about it because I have enough confidence in my calls, and even share many methodology but I do not share my best methodologies for various reasons. It would be great to start a 1'st class trade room with first class traders in there and anyone is welcomed to come into the room to participate..
Everybody wants to be a baller, but let's see who the real ballers are in real time.. This should be fun as trading can get a bit boring without something to make it fun..
In the spirit of addressing the issue rather than the person, let me bring forward some considerations for some of the traders with sub 250K accounts. Please feel free to challenge at any time.
An alpha means neither. An alpha means a person who has mastered his greed and his fear. He does not look at setups missed or stops taken, past performance or todays return. The net profit statement of such a trader will reflect two things -
Preservation of capital at all times (risk control at all times)
A steady consistent gain in account size (it can reflect both percentage gain or dollar amount)
Someone who understands his capital risk and controls it at all times will put himself in a position to take advantage of market weaknesses when ever they occur, his bottom line will reflect that eventually. Not one good trader that I know focuses on his bottom line, they focus on market structure, imbalances and panic in the market, his own control over his exposure. They positive bottom line comes from that. Mine did. So much that I refuse to have targets anymore. To me, it is disadvantageous to say that I can extract 5% gain over a market with a 100million participants. My edge will be based on being there when such an opportunity comes and not having blown through my daily stop loss by playing when the market is in balance.
When your account has grown from, lets say, 25K size or 50K size to 250K, 300K, 500K - your question will stop being relevant. You will realize it will be harder for you to get in/out of positions as quickly as when you were trading 2 - 3contracts (unless you trade ES). This should be apparent to you if you trade on risk multiples. 1R of a 20K account is obviously not 1R on a 300K account. If you think getting in/out on a 10lot on CL is the same as 1lot CL, your base assumptions are off the mark.
A singular trader (not trading group money or fund money) will likely reach a point after compounded gain where cumulative percentage gain goes down. However, net dollar gain keeps moving (the risk profile is too big for the market). It was easy for me to do 3digit percentage returns last 2years. It will be harder for me to do that in 2012 onwards, even though my net gain will be higher. For one thing, my risk is changing, so is my overall target profile - as I get bigger I become more conservative (not because I want to), but because the market forces me to do so.
Another thing, if you must use absolute terms like "utterly absurd" and "give me a break" it may be worth your while to consider that there are traders who make very good 6six figure returns that are unlikely to talk in absolute terms about anything. Perhaps we can learn such a thing from them.
My greatest fear is that I will roll back into a trader that will talk in terms of certainty as if I can guarantee future course of action. This leads us into current versus past performance. Nothing guarantees anything in trading. No one will prove to you whether a profitable trader exists in the first place. You have to make up your mind whether you are going to be one. Period.
Why do tales of failure and misinformation stop you from doing something? In 5years, I have NEVER questioned whether profitable day traders existed. My question is, what am I missing?
And how do I accelerate my learning, cutting through the chaff? Then, once I have a valid theory, I want to poke holes in it. All the time. My best trades have always been the ones I NEVER saw coming.
You mentioned some bankrupt companies. That is easy. Risk. When we lose sight of risk, we increase the chance of ruin. Forget people who are "killing it". Understand risk of ruin first, it has stood me in good stead. I don't look at targets any more, they come to me when I exploit imbalance and panic in the market - or in other words, exploit the risk that others take. It takes patience - good thing is that patience is a taught skill, you can create a positive habit out of it.
Think like the house, not as a prey. The house is not interested in "killing it". They calmly exploit the anger, the impatience, the lack of vision of amateurs. Cooly collecting their fees for the day, whether its %gain or dollar gain.
It's rhetorical now, but for me the answers to the OP are -
Yes, trading is my primary income
Yes, over 100K two years running now.
Over 10,000hrs screen time over past 4 - 4.5years.
Also, before some questions - I have defined "alphas" in 2 distinct ways. As >250K/year net profit traders and as someone that is a risk controller. The income flows from having one's risk screwed down. One follows the other.
Secondly, both risk and profitability are very individual things. For example, As my account size grew, I was no longer comfortable risking 2% (2% was too high). I brought it down to a dollar amount. That allowed me to keep making the same decisions as freely as before. That sort of thing compromises on optimal RR, but I can live with that until I figure out a way to get around it.
Lastly, I remembered this video from a while ago, it pretty much sums up risk.....
You said it and I appreciate the education. Not to mention the fact that you left absolutely no doubt that you were not attacking me (and only the post):
If I'm reading you correctly -- Answer Yes or No ?
"Correctly interpreting the future direction of an instrument (at any given moment) changes because of some (totally unconnected) personal circumstance -- that has no influence on the direction of the instrument being traded".
My stop loss will take care of the fact that I made a bad decision. Whether that was influenced by incorrect read on PA or personal state of my mind. Sometimes I can let my state of mind affect me, sometimes not - the human mind is complicated thing to master. So when I make mental mistakes my method will not let me shoot myself in the foot.
Stop trying to be perfect, instead trade understanding that mistakes will be made. Can I survive while still making those mistakes? That is a much MORE pertinent question. My answer to that is yes.
Another great point that you raised (inadvertently perhaps) is mental state of mind. Distance yourself from negative energy - no matter where it comes from. Let negative thoughts roll over like water. Negative thoughts, emotions, energy is destructive multiplier. It kills creative uni-directional thinking. Detach yourself from things, other people and immerse yourself in the price. Lose sense of time and space. I'm serious.
Think of an activity that you enjoy, you lose sense of time and space when you get involved. Why does trading have to be stressful, painful, edgy all the time? We are digressing now, but the answer is "immaterial".
PS -
I was going over some of the synopsis that nakachalet did. What is saddening is the the viciousness of some of the negative posters. That sort of negative energy is damaging. It is easy to berate, easy to pull down and criticize. Building something real takes time, nurturing and effort. It is a delicate fragile thing. I find more I post, more I expose myself to that negative energy over time. It has a cumulative effect. I need to watch some of those ETrade baby videos now to feel better, or watch some videos of cute kittens fighting on Youtube!
Deucalion, your posts are most refreshing indeed, like to read more when you can squeeze out some time.
but, however, playing poker as in your referenced video, is very much unlike trading for a living.
specifically, what is the odds of drawing another ace, after you already holding two in your hand, as is played out in the video? that would depend on how many cards are left in the deck, and if others also have aces in their hands, correct?
in trading as you alluded to several times, you only focus on your own setups, plans, strategies and capital risk management et al against the ever changing market conditions and interplays; which are all a trader can do on his part to trade, to remain in the trade or to liquidate partially or entirely....
which also differs significantly from poker.... there is no need to bluff anyone in trading.... except ourselves at times.... , and most traders are too amply satisfied to take home only parts of a pie, as mentioned several times by numerous traders, rather than the whole pie as in poker: is my one person opinion.
and as to the degree of risk, many traders only risk 4 to 6 tics against most favorable setups, and not a 2% as most like to quote and perhaps practise.
however, on the other hands, i do agree that there are other general similarities in risk factors between the two.
thx much for posts that are full of wisdom. much appreciated.
, and most traders are too amply satisfied to take home only parts of a pie, as mentioned several times by numerous traders, rather than the whole pie as in poker: is my one person opinion.