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Primary source of income: how many have made it?


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Primary source of income: how many have made it?

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  #201 (permalink)
 tigertrader 
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jstnbrg View Post
I didn't know Sam Judlo. Yosi was indeed a stitch. Were you there the day Charlie D came up to him after the close and just screamed at him because of the way he had marked a back month?


Vaguely remember that incident, but my favorite Charlie story is when he walked by a visibly distraught Steve Leonard, who had just lost $2MM scalping, and said, " Shit, he only dropped 2MM; I thought he would handle it, better than that!"

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  #202 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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itrade2win View Post
My philosophy is never to take advice from anyone who is at the same level or below myself.

This type of comment has been made before and I am always against it. Not to bewilder others on this forum that are struggling in any way ---- but, if you look at the trading journals section you will find many examples of what not to do. It is much more clear when you are reading it from a distance than the one posting it. And the guys posting to their journals deserve our respect, because they are actively trying to improve.

At any rate, the point is there are many examples of where you can learn from others that are not successful. If 95% of the game is psychology, something I don't really dispute btw (well psychology+money/risk management), then seeing the mistakes these other guys make should really help you know what not to do in your own trading. And that means you can learn from someone even if they are "below" you.

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  #203 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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  #204 (permalink)
 itrade2win 
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MetalTrade View Post
itrade2win, I wish you all the best. But you sound like a little too overconfident, what I read from you did not made me profitable, it was not only psycho stuff, so probably I take your money faster in this game than you can blink your eyes.

Why ? Because you will be focused on your psycho strength and you will have that in the back in your mind while trading, and meanwhile I will have your money.

The only psychological thing for me is that there is no emotion left anymore. Zero.

People do not become profitable because they read the right books, believe in themselves or treat trading as a business. These 3 items are heavily overrated. In fact, normal business rules don't apply to trading, that's why TREATING TRADING AS A BUSINESS IS PLAIN BULLSHIT.


MetalTrade,

All I can say is good luck and I look forward to the challenge. And when you take a losing trade it will probably be me taking money from you. LOL!!!

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  #205 (permalink)
 sharmas 
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Guys

This is one of the best forum and we are very fortunate to have so many traders who are willing to share the indicators/charts and give advice.

Most importantly some members go out of their way to build indicators on request.I still believe there are no free lunches, but at futures.io (formerly BMT) you can afford to buy your lunches and then some as the indicators and advice are awesome here.

Debate but be respectful.....Have your opinion/s but dont forget others have them too.
Get serious about gratitude.....

Lets focus our energies on making a living out of trading and not

Keep your emotions cool,stay in control of your emotions, and you will be on top of the game always.

Happy trading and sharing

sharmas

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  #206 (permalink)
 gio5959 
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Big Mike View Post
This type of comment has been made before and I am always against it. Not to bewilder others on this forum that are struggling in any way ---- but, if you look at the trading journals section you will find many examples of what not to do. It is much more clear when you are reading it from a distance than the one posting it. And the guys posting to their journals deserve our respect, because they are actively trying to improve.

At any rate, the point is there are many examples of where you can learn from others that are not successful. If 95% of the game is psychology, something I don't really dispute btw (well psychology+money/risk management), then seeing the mistakes these other guys make should really help you know what not to do in your own trading. And that means you can learn from someone even if they are "below" you.

Mike


you can ban anyone you want to ban for what ever reason you want but to say that trading is 95% psychology is not correct - if you knew the algorithm that governs the movements of price you would know what i mean

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  #207 (permalink)
 itrade2win 
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gio5959 View Post
you can ban anyone you want to ban for what ever reason you want but to say that trading is 95% psychology is not correct - if you knew the algorithm that governs the movements of price you would know what i mean

Would you please explain the algorithm that governs the movements of price the way you understand it?

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  #208 (permalink)
 Fat Tails 
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gio5959 View Post
you can ban anyone you want to ban for what ever reason you want but to say that trading is 95% psychology is not correct - if you knew the algorithm that governs the movements of price you would know what i mean

This is a bit similar to the evolution of species. The plants came first. Psychology came first in trading and introduced feedback, just like feedback governs a school of fish or swarms of birds. Algorithms are the second generation of feedback mechanisms. They feed on psychological behaviour, just as herbivores feed on plants. The apparition of carnivores, that is algorithms that feed on algorithms is only recent.

The funny thing is that these algorithms seem to have human traits, being trapped by other algorithms in a similar way as we are by traders. And indeed markets are designed that way. You can even laugh at algorithms. If you think about it, psychology and algorithms are both driven by feedback and learned patterns, and traders have to unlearn and relearn in a similar way as adaptive algorithms.

I also disagree with the 95%. In reality there is a long process of setting up and testing and reporting setups, and once you have done your homework, your perception of the remaining task is something like 95% psychology. But this refers to the application of the rules elaborated, which is the on-stage performance.

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  #209 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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If you guys don't think psychology is the most important factor, then how do you explain why so many (majority) of traders make money on sim so easily, yet when they go cash the majority lose big. Methods get thrown out the window, emotions take over, mistakes are made, bad habits and patterns formed - and now we are deep into psychology.

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  #210 (permalink)
 cory 
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from one end you have 100 percent auto system guy to other end 95 percent is all psychological guy. Your job is to figure out where you are on the scale.

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  #211 (permalink)
 mattz   is a Vendor
 
 
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My Opinions only and I welcome your feedback on this.

In regards to the debate whether trading is a business:
Although I think that trading success and business success is different, as I have posted here: Trading is still a business in every sense of the word.

This is the time that you decide to work for yourself, rely on your skills and no one will hand you a paycheck.
Above All, there is an element of uncertainty, and the varying degrees of this uncertainty will dictate how much money you will make or not.

I often think: why one person makes 1 million and the others is making 10 million in the exact same industry?
Both are successful, but one takes the bank home.
I say it's the varying degree of uncertainty one can live with.

Even when we get to be good, we have a "mental breaks" that stop us being great ( I mean make more).
We don't think of it consciously, but we exercise to the degree that allows us psychologically to be in our comfort zone.
For those who have made good money from trading or other ventures, you know how overwhelming it is physically and mentally it is for the first time. It's either we proceed with caution at that point, or get even more gutsy.
What we choose depends on our nature.

Here is another way of thinking about degrees of uncertainty: when you make X amount of dollars, are you willing to sacrifice the X you make to make 2X, sacrifice the 2X to make 5X, 5x to make 20X, etc. At some point your left brain says "I don't want to lose what I have build/earned so far!"

Obviously these things come to play during your evolution as a trader.

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  #212 (permalink)
 traderwerks 
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itrade2win View Post
My philosophy is never to take advice from anyone who is at the same level or below myself.

Some of the best programmers I have known would listen and sometimes take advice from programmers a lot junior than they were. You can always learn from others no matter what their level. It may not be much you can learn but you never know when someone just starting out comes up with something you do not know or understand.

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  #213 (permalink)
 itrade2win 
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traderwerks View Post
Some of the best programmers I have known would listen and sometimes take advice from programmers a lot junior than they were. You can always learn from others no matter what their level. It may not be much you can learn but you never know when someone just starting out comes up with something you do not know or understand.


Out of respect to Mike and other members I have sent you a PM related to your reply. And moving forward we really should stay away from this subject on the open forum.

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  #214 (permalink)
 tigertrader 
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itrade2win View Post
Out of respect to Mike and other members I have sent you a PM related to your reply. And moving forward we really should stay away from this subject on the open forum.


I understand the logic behind your original statement, and I do not believe it's intent was mean spirited, nor pretentious. Obviously, if you had a choice between being mentored by Jack Welch or some V.P. with 5 years of experience under his belt, you would choose the former. Especially, if you had been in business for 10 years or more. Or, if you were going to take a golf lesson, and you had a choice between being tutored by Tiger Woods or his caddy, you would choose Tiger. Especially, if you were already on the tour. However, just because the V.P. and the caddy are less experienced than the veterans, doesn't mean they don't have some valuable lessons to impart.

With almost 40 years of trading experience under my belt, I am arguably one of the most , if not the most experienced traders on this forum. Yet, with every visit to this site, I learn something new. Whether, it s about a new kind of indicator, or strategy, or methodology that I wasn't familiar with, I always take something away with me, after having logged on to this board. With over 10,000 participants, how could you not?

And, it's not only the obvious participants like Gomi, Fat Tails, or Big Mike, that you can learn from; you can learn something new and valuable from almost anyone on this forum, no matter what, is their level of experience.

That's the beauty of this forum and that is the reason why it is so successful.

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  #215 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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itrade2win View Post
Out of respect to Mike and other members I have sent you a PM related to your reply. And moving forward we really should stay away from this subject on the open forum.

I just want to let you know that even though I disagree with your original statement, and you may disagree with my view, it doesn't mean you can't discuss it in the open forum. The whole moderation thing in this thread was because some members chose to start calling each other names and not conducting themselves in a positive manner.

Disagreements are part of discussions, so feel free to disagree and make your case I trust you will not call me names, and everything will be fine

Mike

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  #216 (permalink)
 itrade2win 
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Tiger Woods would never take lessons from an amateur golfer Granted, I am not Tiger, but I have the same principles. I don't feel this way to demean anyone or feel that I am above anyone. It has always been my life experience to learn from those who are above me, not lateral or below me. And I have benefited 10 fold from this philosophy. And yes, I'm sure there are things that can be learned from those who are less experienced and less skilled. But my first choice will always be with those better than I. And I will always do what has proven to be beneficial to me.

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 aquarian1 
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thatguy View Post
Just keep in mind, just because you cannot do something, doesn't mean it cannot get done. Until you believe something is possible, it won't be.
...

Quite true!

From S Wilde:
"It's not true it can't be done. It's just true for them"

From a hanging on my wall:
"If you can dream it you can do it"

(Belief, Faith, Persistence, Discipline, a solid Plan and Visualization are part of this.)

Reach for the stars.

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 gg80108 
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There seems to be an assumption that someone who is successful , can automatically mentor someone else to greatness..
U every tried to mentor someone on anything and been frustrated because u can't understand why they can't do what u do or they were never as "good" as u were,,, there u have ur answer,, Not just in trading any subject.
This is why the odds in trading successfully measured in money eludes most...

Untapped talent has a chance to be mentored,, but if u have no/little talent and only a desire, the best mentor in the world would not make a difference.....

The best traders I have observed mostly comment that they just feel the trade,, nothing one can teach.....

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  #219 (permalink)
felixtjung
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mattz View Post
My Opinions only and I welcome your feedback on this.

In regards to the debate whether trading is a business:
Although I think that trading success and business success is different, as I have posted here: Trading is still a business in every sense of the word.

This is the time that you decide to work for yourself, rely on your skills and no one will hand you a paycheck.
Above All, there is an element of uncertainty, and the varying degrees of this uncertainty will dictate how much money you will make or not.

I often think: why one person makes 1 million and the others is making 10 million in the exact same industry?
Both are successful, but one takes the bank home.
I say it's the varying degree of uncertainty one can live with.

Even when we get to be good, we have a "mental breaks" that stop us being great ( I mean make more).
We don't think of it consciously, but we exercise to the degree that allows us psychologically to be in our comfort zone.
For those who have made good money from trading or other ventures, you know how overwhelming it is physically and mentally it is for the first time. It's either we proceed with caution at that point, or get even more gutsy.
What we choose depends on our nature.

Here is another way of thinking about degrees of uncertainty: when you make X amount of dollars, are you willing to sacrifice the X you make to make 2X, sacrifice the 2X to make 5X, 5x to make 20X, etc. At some point your left brain says "I don't want to lose what I have build/earned so far!"

Obviously these things come to play during your evolution as a trader.

I must admit, I felt quite offended with your original comment. But your criticique is a good one. It makes me think about this issue for quite sometimes. So, thanks.

Everything about trading is relates to ones personal belief. The worst thing about belief is that it's too hard to be changed. It's my belief that human likes to hear "what they want to hear", not "what they should hear".

I consider myself as a successful trader because I can get everything out that I want from the market with my own way as defined in my trading objectives. I'm not a day trader as I don't like to trade that way, and I don't intend to make living from trading only. I only treat trading as one of wealth-growing-tool.

In regards your comment about "business succeess is different with trading success", no matter how I think about it, I still disagree with that. The key issue to this is how ones define the word "success". For some people, the word success is defined as "becoming rich" or "reach first 2 million", etc. However, is that so?

I, however, propose the word "success" should be defined differently compared to most. I define the word "success" as the state where your objectives/goal has been fulfilled successfully. This implies, if ones doesn't have goal/objective, then they will never be successful. Although this statement is quite bold, it's consistent with my success definition. It's also a corollary that "Success" is subjective, in the sense when someone say you are successful, it implies you are successful relative to their perspective.

Business objectives is not different from Trading objectives. I list the common business objectives and trading objectives as a comparison:

Business Objectives (for 1st year mini-market as example):
1. Establish marketplace with good location.
2. Get at least 50 different products based on consumer interest.
3. Gain local popularity about store existence.
4. Have $10,000 turnover in the first year.

"my-simplified" Trading Objectives (for system trader 1st year):
1. Trade only 5 minute per day.
2. Establish trading system which give 100% growth per year.
3. Establish trading manual operation procedure.
4. Establish automated-framework based on learned manual operation procedure.
5. Research about the possibility to integrate Fundamental analysis to trading decision.

Now, objectives (goal) is what we should be aiming, NOT what will definitely got. To reach this objectives, we need to create a plan. If we can't create a sound plan to reach those objectives, then the objectives needs to changes.

As your comment, "trading environment is not so forgiving for business", I don't quite understand this statement to be honest, but the way I interprete your statement is "business require consistent cashflow to survive which is not available in trading", let me know if I'm wrong?

That's right, business require cashflow management to "live", it's like breathing. But that doesn't mean you will get consistent net profit (as in profit - expense) from business probably you'll never be. Business has bad days and good days just like trading. However, ones might argue when the Business takes off, the profit "tend" to become consistent. In trading, this is equivalent to have multiple systems which handle different market condition. After years and years worth of research during my mad holy grail journey, I argue that it's possible to generate consistent profit from trading (However each system will lose money when market condition changing, integrating fundamental analysis might reduce this drawdown. After all, human perspective is faster than trend changes).

Second argument to support my point is there are a lot of business strategy that's applicable to trading. I'm not sure in US, but in Australia, Share trading is one type of business. What that means is, you get luxury of having a business by trading. This includes but not limited to tax break, a vast availability of tax deductions, loan strategy, investment allowance, etc, etc. In short, there are a lot of things that you can do as a Business which is not available as Individual.

Other profession like mechanical, accountant, salesman might have objectives and they might have equivalent plan. But they don't share same different paradigm to "business, investing, trading" alike in the sense that they are trying to solve completely different problem.

Profession | Problem | Traits
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Accountant | Needs to be produce accurate report which is bounded by law. | Follow procedure
Mechanical | Solving mathematical problems. | They have to be logical
Salesman | Convincing people takes some times beside they also rely on | The require great persistence
| statistical result about the sales

I argue Business, trading, investing try to solve same problem that is "How to make money from money under environment which full of uncertainty". Note that, the problem I define here is subjective to my perspective about those professions.
There are similar professions that address completely different problem. There are market analysts for example, they deal with "How will the market behave". They share completely different characteristic even though they got similar knowledge compared to trader because when they actually trade, they just can't, their pschology just won't hold.

In my opinion, Business, trading and investing share same characteristic because they try to address same problem. This "cause-and-reason" is amplified by the fact that community tends to treat them as equal in the sense, trading is just one variation of business.

I welcome any critique about this though.

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  #220 (permalink)
farmer55
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Previous post by some one a few pages ago

"It wasn't easy but I did find some and what I saw was that there are guys who make an absolute fortune but from the second they crack it they go as silent as the tomb. Not a word, sometimes their friends don't even know what these guys actually do for a living. "

Truth right here! I advise reading it over and over 100 or more times! Then maybe it will sink in and you will begin to believe it.

What was it that they found? They descibed it to him as cracking the code.

I call it my hidden treasure. That is why I say " No one gives the secret location to their hidden treasure"" And if they do, you can be sure their treasure is worthless"

I nod to the posts offered by the guys from the pit. I wish I would of gone down that path.

After a week on this site I feel I must go. I almost want to give a hint or two. But I worked too hard to come across the knowledge to even give a hint.

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  #221 (permalink)
 AR01 
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farmer55 View Post
Previous post by some one a few pages ago

"It wasn't easy but I did find some and what I saw was that there are guys who make an absolute fortune but from the second they crack it they go as silent as the tomb. Not a word, sometimes their friends don't even know what these guys actually do for a living. "

Truth right here! I advise reading it over and over 100 or more times! Then maybe it will sink in and you will begin to believe it.

What was it that they found? They descibed it to him as cracking the code.

I call it my hidden treasure. That is why I say " No one gives the secret location to their hidden treasure"" And if they do, you can be sure their treasure is worthless"

I nod to the posts offered by the guys from the pit. I wish I would of gone down that path.

After a week on this site I feel I must go. I almost want to give a hint or two. But I worked too hard to come across the knowledge to even give a hint.

Apparently, you didn't plan on sharing and you don't expect anyone to say anything of any value. Good luck to you and I'm glad you found your special reason to leave.

Andrew

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  #222 (permalink)
 ThatManFromTexas 
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farmer55 View Post
Previous post by some one a few pages ago

"It wasn't easy but I did find some and what I saw was that there are guys who make an absolute fortune but from the second they crack it they go as silent as the tomb. Not a word, sometimes their friends don't even know what these guys actually do for a living. "

Truth right here! I advise reading it over and over 100 or more times! Then maybe it will sink in and you will begin to believe it.

What was it that they found? They descibed it to him as cracking the code.

I call it my hidden treasure. That is why I say " No one gives the secret location to their hidden treasure"" And if they do, you can be sure their treasure is worthless"

I nod to the posts offered by the guys from the pit. I wish I would of gone down that path.

After a week on this site I feel I must go. I almost want to give a hint or two. But I worked too hard to come across the knowledge to even give a hint.


AR01 View Post
Apparently, you didn't plan on sharing and you don't expect anyone to say anything of any value. Good luck to you and I'm glad you found your special reason to leave.

Andrew

Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya...

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #223 (permalink)
 ThatManFromTexas 
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itrade2win View Post
Tiger Woods would never take lessons from an amateur golfer Granted, I am not Tiger, but I have the same principles. I don't feel this way to demean anyone or feel that I am above anyone. It has always been my life experience to learn from those who are above me, not lateral or below me. And I have benefited 10 fold from this philosophy. And yes, I'm sure there are things that can be learned from those who are less experienced and less skilled. But my first choice will always be with those better than I. And I will always do what has proven to be beneficial to me.


But if the people above you have the same philosophy you do... they won't talk to you...

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #224 (permalink)
 itrade2win 
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
But if the people above you have the same philosophy you do... they won't talk to you...

Absolutely correct, they wouldn't take advice from me. But, you feed their ego enough and ask the right questions they will share what works for them. Remember, I would be the one looking for help from them, not the other way around.

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  #225 (permalink)
 mmtrader4 
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itrade2win View Post
Absolutely correct, they wouldn't take advice from me. But, you feed their ego enough and ask the right questions they will share what works for them. Remember, I would be the one looking for help from them, not the other way around.


Absolutely. I have learned much from traders above me - not by feeding egos but by being, for lack of a better word, "gracious". I am here to learn. Perhaps the following is only one reason why a successful trader won't share.
I personally know a trader (doesn't live far from me) who takes over a million out of the futures market every year. I got to know him slowly, saw he was no BS artist, and through conversation he showed me a great deal. Why, you may wonder, was he apprehensive at first? Because MANY people are NOT open minded. I was in a forum / blog with him and when he stated the amount of $$ he made on an annual basis the beating he took in the blog was just unbelievable! He got on the phone with me and said he'd NEVER share his income again. Why help those who don't want to be helped and are probably frustrated traders or wannabes. And the ironic part he said is "you have no idea how much some traders make in this business, while I am comfortable with my income, to some traders my million a year is chump change."
I still am in contact with him . . . now only if he'd give me about $200K to trade with .

One caveat here, I've also learned from traders below me . . . there is always something to learn. Open your ears, eyes and mind.

Just my humble opinion.

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  #226 (permalink)
 jstnbrg 
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itrade2win View Post
Absolutely correct, they wouldn't take advice from me. But, you feed their ego enough and ask the right questions they will share what works for them. Remember, I would be the one looking for help from them, not the other way around.

Don't pro golfers take advice from their caddies? Tiger is routinely coached by golfers who are not as good as he is, given that Jack Nicholas never coached him. Pete Carrill, one of the greatest college basketball coaches of all time (Princeton), was about 5'7" tall. Those who know less than you may still know something you do not.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."
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  #227 (permalink)
 ThatManFromTexas 
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itrade2win View Post
.... you feed their ego enough and ask the right questions.....

... my friend Charlotte the Harlot uses the same approach in her line of work... quit effectively I might add .

Disclaimer: This post does not represent the view point the owners, managers, or moderators of this web site and is not intended as a slam against any moderator, board member, any banned former members whose name we dare not say, any other living person, any recently living person or any person or persons whose status we are not sure of. This post is meant purely in jest and should not be confused with a real thought.

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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 itrade2win 
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
... my friend Charlotte the Harlot uses the same approach in her line of work... quit effectively I might add .

Disclaimer: This post does not represent the view point the owners, managers, or moderators of this web site and is not intended as a slam against any moderator, board member, any banned former members whose name we dare not say, any other living person, any recently living person or any person or persons whose status we are not sure of. This post is meant purely in jest and should not be confused with a real thought.


I have been in Sales & Marketing for 28 years. I know if you make people feel good about themselves and what their doing then you always get what you want. And to do this you need to have empathy.

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  #229 (permalink)
 shodson 
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Here's an interview of a recent survey of 700 traders

What Does It Really Take to Be a Successful Trader? | Interviews With Top Traders

Press the "Play" button to listen to the interview

Here's the slides

https://www.traderinterviews.com/content/TraderSurveyResults.pdf

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  #230 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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shodson View Post
Here's an interview of a recent survey of 700 traders

What Does It Really Take to Be a Successful Trader? | Interviews With Top Traders

Press the "Play" button to listen to the interview

Here's the slides

https://www.traderinterviews.com/content/TraderSurveyResults.pdf

Scott, this deserves its own thread, great find.

Mike

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  #231 (permalink)
 nostrabus 
Salvador, Brazil
 
 
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Hello

1 yes
2 yes but not every year

it took 2 years and a lot of capital....

in fact it depends a lot on your trading account size, it is much easier to make 100.000 a year if your account is 1 million
so it is all relative

best wishes

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  #232 (permalink)
 Trader.Jon 
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itrade2win View Post
Tiger Woods would never take lessons from an amateur golfer ... And yes, I'm sure there are things that can be learned from those who are less experienced and less skilled. But my first choice will always be with those better than I. And I will always do what has proven to be beneficial to me.

If he had taken lessons in moral fibre he would have benefited his game tremendously. .. again .. I guess it depends what each person decides is beneficial

TJ

Writing to you from the wonderful province of Ontario, Canada. Home to the world's biggest natural negative ion generator, the Niagara Falls, and to those that dare to know how to go over it in a barrel. SALUTE!
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  #233 (permalink)
 itrade2win 
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Trader.Jon View Post
If he had taken lessons in moral fibre he would have benefited his game tremendously. .. again .. I guess it depends what each person decides is beneficial

TJ

You made a statement, but you didn't back it up with facts. Tell me, how would his game have benefited with having moral fibre? Psychologically the divorce has taken over mentally, but as time passes so will the pain and he is on the come back trail now.

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  #234 (permalink)
 jstnbrg 
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itrade2win View Post
You made a statement, but you didn't back it up with facts. Tell me, how would his game have benefited with having moral fibre? Psychologically the divorce has taken over mentally, but as time passes so will the pain and he is on the come back trail now.

It was obviously an opinion, so maybe he doesn't have to back it up with facts.

You really don't see a connection between the results of Tiger's infidelity and the collapse of his game? You don't believe that a lack of distractions helps performance? I've said it elsewhere on this forum: nothing can hurt your performance trading more than a major upheaval in your life, such as a divorce. Golf is no different. Also, fans used to love him, now many of them heckle him. It can't help his confidence, knowing that many who idolized him now want him to lose.

From a more practical standpoint, one of Tiger's lifetime goals is to win more major championships than Nicklaus. Professional athletes' careers have a limited length, and losing at least a year can't help him. Also, how opponents look at him has changed. He's now human, and therefore beatable.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."
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  #235 (permalink)
 itrade2win 
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jstnbrg View Post
It was obviously an opinion, so maybe he doesn't have to back it up with facts.

You really don't see a connection between the results of Tiger's infidelity and the collapse of his game? You don't believe that a lack of distractions helps performance? I've said it elsewhere on this forum: nothing can hurt your performance trading more than a major upheaval in your life, such as a divorce. Golf is no different. Also, fans used to love him, now many of them heckle him. It can't help his confidence, knowing that many who idolized him now want him to lose.

From a more practical standpoint, one of Tiger's lifetime goals is to win more major championships than Nicklaus. Professional athletes' careers have a limited length, and losing at least a year can't help him. Also, how opponents look at him has changed. He's now human, and therefore beatable.

Even when I state my opinion I have a base for my thesis. I did in fact say that Tiger's divorce played a mental role in his game did I not? In "MY" opinion there will always be distractions in ones life, some major and some minor. Again in "MY" opinion you need the mental strength to temporarily block those distractions when it comes to work. If you cannot do this then you should not attempt to perform your job or game.

I will always be a big fan of Tiger Woods. I don't condone his infidelity, but I like him as a golfer. And from what I read and know there are many who feel the same as I do. Time is a great healer and he will overcome this setback and dominate the tour like he once did. In golf losing a year or even two will not be detrimental to his overall goal at his age. No one is even close to the the major championships wins to Tiger. I don't think you are making your statements about Tiger or the other tour players based on facts from information but purely "YOUR" opinion which is lacking substance. Because your wrong about how the other players have reacted towards him. My suggestion, gets your facts straight before you make a statement.

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  #236 (permalink)
 gg80108 
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"Primary source of income: how many have made it?".
The PNL is in the red, same as the overall odds?... or was this meant to be a rhetorical question?

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  #237 (permalink)
 jstnbrg 
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itrade2win View Post
Even when I state my opinion I have a base for my thesis. I did in fact say that Tiger's divorce played a mental role in his game did I not? In "MY" opinion there will always be distractions in ones life, some major and some minor. Again in "MY" opinion you need the mental strength to temporarily block those distractions when it comes to work. If you cannot do this then you should not attempt to perform your job or game.

Me too, or if I don't have a basis for my opinion I say so. I think that @ traderjon's point was pretty obvious, and not the sort of opinion that he had to defend with a complicated argument.


Quoting 
I will always be a big fan of Tiger Woods. I don't condone his infidelity, but I like him as a golfer. And from what I read and know there are many who feel the same as I do. Time is a great healer and he will overcome this setback and dominate the tour like he once did. In golf losing a year or even two will not be detrimental to his overall goal at his age. No one is even close to the the major championships wins to Tiger. I don't think you are making your statements about Tiger or the other tour players based on facts from information but purely "YOUR" opinion which is lacking substance. Because your wrong about how the other players have reacted towards him. My suggestion, gets your facts straight before you make a statement.

On major distractions like divorce and work, if you can block them, great. It has been my experience that some truly great traders, guys with eight and maybe nine figure lifetime incomes, have had their work severely disrupted by divorce. It can be a career destroyer in this business. So the point I want to repeat is to be aware of that, and step back if it screws you up too much.

On Tiger: I like him as a player and hope he's able to come back. He's great for the game of golf. Personally, I'm pretty sure he will come back. On the things I said about his career, most of them are definitely true. He is being heckled. What is guesswork on my part is the psychological effect that is having on him, and what I said is "It can't help his confidence" which is pretty clearly true. I suppose it could help his resolve, however. He did lose at least a year's worth of majors, and he's no longer a young athlete. He has knee injuries that have already forced him to change his swing, and so far that's not going so well. You said I'm wrong about how other players have reacted to him from a confidence standpoint. I read that in a Golf Magazine article. I know they support him, but that wasn't the substance of my point. And how do you know I'm wrong? Have you interviewed all the other players on tour, or seen a poll? It only takes a couple of good players who no longer are in awe of him to prevent him from winning a tournament. He just lost in the first round of a match play tournament to someone I'd never heard of, and match play is Tiger's strongest suit.

I think my facts are pretty straight. By the way, you misspelled "you're" in the sentence "Because your wrong about how the other players have reacted towards him. If you want to tell me what to do and what to say and when to say it, at least spell correctly.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."
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  #238 (permalink)
 itrade2win 
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jstnbrg View Post
Me too, or if I don't have a basis for my opinion I say so. I think that @ traderjon's point was pretty obvious, and not the sort of opinion that he had to defend with a complicated argument.



On major distractions like divorce and work, if you can block them, great. It has been my experience that some truly great traders, guys with eight and maybe nine figure lifetime incomes, have had their work severely disrupted by divorce. It can be a career destroyer in this business. So the point I want to repeat is to be aware of that, and step back if it screws you up too much.

On Tiger: I like him as a player and hope he's able to come back. He's great for the game of golf. Personally, I'm pretty sure he will come back. On the things I said about his career, most of them are definitely true. He is being heckled. What is guesswork on my part is the psychological effect that is having on him, and what I said is "It can't help his confidence" which is pretty clearly true. I suppose it could help his resolve, however. He did lose at least a year's worth of majors, and he's no longer a young athlete. He has knee injuries that have already forced him to change his swing, and so far that's not going so well. You said I'm wrong about how other players have reacted to him from a confidence standpoint. I read that in a Golf Magazine article. I know they support him, but that wasn't the substance of my point. And how do you know I'm wrong? Have you interviewed all the other players on tour, or seen a poll? It only takes a couple of good players who no longer are in awe of him to prevent him from winning a tournament. He just lost in the first round of a match play tournament to someone I'd never heard of, and match play is Tiger's strongest suit.

I think my facts are pretty straight. By the way, you misspelled "you're" in the sentence "Because your wrong about how the other players have reacted towards him. If you want to tell me what to do and what to say and when to say it, at least spell correctly.


Having this debate with you reminds me of an old friend. I divorced her ass several years ago.

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  #239 (permalink)
 bluemele 
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itrade2win View Post
Having this debate with you reminds me of an old friend. I divorced her ass several years ago.

Did you keep the rest of her?

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  #240 (permalink)
 itrade2win 
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bluemele View Post
Did you keep the rest of her?


No....not even the memories...LOL!!!

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  #241 (permalink)
 jstnbrg 
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itrade2win View Post
Having this debate with you reminds me of an old friend. I divorced her ass several years ago.

I promise I won't marry you. Then we don't have to get divorced. To be honest, I'm sorry I jumped into this discussion. It's a distraction. Only the part about the impact of major life events has anything to do with trading. I'm sure TraderJon is more than capable of defending himself if he cares to do so, it was really none of my business. Peace?

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  #242 (permalink)
 Lornz 
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itrade2win View Post
Efforts alone are never enough to guarantee success. Being emotionally and psychologically strong will put the odds in my favor. Nothing else really matters.

Trading is about being involved with a lot of risk and controlling yourself. And if you can control yourself, you're going to be successful


itrade2win View Post
I understand why you had said this, but you have no idea what you're talking about. Perseverance alone will never bring success without the proper mental and psychological tools and mindset. Trading IMO is 95% psychological.


Big Mike View Post
If you guys don't think psychology is the most important factor, then how do you explain why so many (majority) of traders make money on sim so easily, yet when they go cash the majority lose big. Methods get thrown out the window, emotions take over, mistakes are made, bad habits and patterns formed - and now we are deep into psychology.

Mike

I just read through this thread and, not surprisingly, found a lot of the common misconceptions that can lead a beginning trader down the wrong path.

The most important aspect of trading is gaining an edge. The objective is to design a profitable system. Without a system with positive expectancy you are nowhere. Psychology won't make you profitable by itself. If one does not have an edge and only focus on the psychological aspect of trading, one is chasing a ghost. Every bad trade can be blamed on lack of composure,but the real problem is the lack of a solid trading system. If trading discretionarily, psychology plays an important part in the implementation/execution of the system. If fully automated, the psychological aspect is all but eliminated - one just need to refrain from shutting the system off.

The traits that can get one ahead in business, can leave one behind when it comes to trading. As a retail trader, one is far better off being an observer, rather than being an aggressor. The main advantage one has, is one's nimbleness due to trading small size. Even if one cannot benefit from the traits responsible for success in business when trading, treating the structural part of one's trading venture as a business is paramount. Most beginning traders are far too unstructured and naive in their approach.


itrade2win View Post
My philosophy is never to take advice from anyone who is at the same level or below myself.


Big Mike View Post
This type of comment has been made before and I am always against it. Not to bewilder others on this forum that are struggling in any way ---- but, if you look at the trading journals section you will find many examples of what not to do. It is much more clear when you are reading it from a distance than the one posting it. And the guys posting to their journals deserve our respect, because they are actively trying to improve.

At any rate, the point is there are many examples of where you can learn from others that are not successful. If 95% of the game is psychology, something I don't really dispute btw (well psychology+money/risk management), then seeing the mistakes these other guys make should really help you know what not to do in your own trading. And that means you can learn from someone even if they are "below" you.

Mike

As a student of philosophy, I take offense at that statement. First of all, it is impossible to know if a poster/trader are "above"/"below" oneself. As a novice trader, one doesn't necessarily have the knowledge to separate the authentic traders from the poseurs. Besides, unless one has verified his/hers track record, one has no idea if they actually are profitable. Secondly, even if a highly successful discretionary trader would share his methods, it is doubtful another trader would be able to emulate his trading easily.

The thing is, good ideas might come from everywhere. A struggling trader might be on to something, without even being aware of it him/herself, and thus potentially (and unknowingly) help others achieve profitability.
There are a lot of successful traders that offers excellent advice, but the advice offered usually doesn't resonate with new traders, mostly due to faulty preconceptions of what becoming a successful trader entails. Instead, a lot end up paying self-proclaimed "experts" thousands of dollars for nothing, or read posts from people who do not know what they're talking about. But, as Big Mike points out, that can also be valuable. It is preferable to learn from the mistakes of others, rather than doing them oneself. There are countless ways to make money in the markets, the key is to find an approach that fits with one's personality.

I have always thought of fora as good analogy for the markets. Just like one has to filter out the "noise" of the market, the same is true for a forum. The focus should be on differentiating the valid ideas from the useless, not necessarily if the poster is "above" or "below" oneself. I have learned a lot from academics that are hopeless traders (or not even trading at all), but excellent theoreticians. The ability to handle risk in a productive manner is a trait difficult to learn. Perhaps it is purely genetic...

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  #243 (permalink)
 RM99 
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I agree with BigMike and others.

There are endless numbers of smart, educated and otherwise trade "intelligent" traders/investors.

The main differentiator to successful day trading is overcoming the human factor. Some call it psychology, some call it discipline, some call it emotionless trading....it's all a similar concept.

Having an edge isn't enough, particularly given the large volitility and leverage present in many of the instruments day traders negotiate.

It's very similar to poker. You can walk into any major poker room in the US and find a spectrum of players with respect to their skills/knowledge. The players that are successful in the long term are the ones with diiscipline. Knowing the odds, knowing advanced concepts like pot odds, position, etc, isn't enough.

That's why I think BigMike's post is cogent, because the lessons learned from others is very helpful in living vicariously through someone else's failures. "A dumb man never learns, a smart man learns from his own mistakes, but a wise man learns from the mistakes of others."

For some of us, the solution is automation. Others, who prefer discretionary styles, need discipline more than they need help gaining an "edge."

As we've seen in several threads on this forum, you can take a random line and gain an "edge" from it. Indicators are a dime a dozen, the real secret to long term success is discipline and money management. Guys who can gain an expectation edge are a dime/dozen. Hell, I can take an indicator I've never used and craft a strategy that will give an edge very easily. It's being able to apply that edge that's the difficult part. Slippage, varying market conditions, knowing when to take profits and step out, knowing when to cut a loser short, etc, etc, etc. Those aren't "edge" issues (at least not in a first order aspect), those are psychology and human factor aspects.

I suppose you COULD favor strategies that reduce the human factor burden or avoid them more than others, and that would be a way to systematically remove discipline and money management challenges, but for most traders, on most instruments, using most methods, money management and psychology is the real factor that determines whether they'll be successful.

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 itrade2win 
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I truly regret posting in this thread at all, and this will be my last post on the subject. I hesitated in writing this post because I almost feel like I'm defending myself, but decided to go ahead and attempt to clarify my belief's on the subject and that is the only reason. Having an edge, controlling your emotions ie; (Psychology) and the proper MM setup are all part of the puzzle. I never said that not having a proven methodology is not important because it is. But, I can have a proven method and still have fear with my trading, hesitation to pull the trigger and/or bail out of a winning trade. We have all heard the phrase "cut your losers short and let your winners run". Most guys and myself included have been in a trade and the market moves in our favor +.15 to +.20 ticks and close the trade and then the market runs forever it seems and then there are times when you take some heat when the trade turns against you and then out of fear you close the trade and then it rolls over and had you stayed in the trade it would have been a winner. Why because of fear and the lack of control of your emotions. This sounds like Psychology to me. The point being is psychology play's the biggest part in trading. I look at Free Solo climbers, they have to have such discipline to climb ten's of thousands of feet up mountains without a rope or anything to protect them if they fall. Any lack of complete emotional discipline and they fall to their deaths. Wouldn't you say psychology is the biggest asset to their success?

I still hold my position that you will benefit the most from those with much more trading experience. Learning from less experienced mistakes??? Comon man, give me a break. If someone has been trading for lets say 2 to 3 years and the other guy is just starting out. How in the world can the guy with a few years experience learn for the newbie? The mistakes the newbie is making the the other guy has already made several times and should have overcome those mistakes. Is the newbie going to create a new way of making mistakes or being a losing trader? Experience is KEY here. Take the same two guys going for a job interview and lets take education out of the equation, who is more likely going to get the job? Please don't open up a can of worms here because yes there will be scenarios and circumstances when the less experience guy may get the job, but if anyone wants to debate it go for it. I know what I stand for and I know in my experience and what I have accomplished in my life and how I made my accomplishments have been the difference. No! I'm not being ignorant or patting myself on the back. If you knew my background and how I accomplished the successes I have you would understand where I come from and why I have my beliefs.

So for those that want to knock down what I have said go for it, I may chose to read it, and if I do I will decide to take it with a grain of salt if it is meaningless and the same debate that already has been created or if it has any real substance I may consider your position.

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  #245 (permalink)
 Lornz 
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RM99 View Post
I agree with BigMike and others.

There are endless numbers of smart, educated and otherwise trade "intelligent" traders/investors.

The main differentiator to successful day trading is overcoming the human factor. Some call it psychology, some call it discipline, some call it emotionless trading....it's all a similar concept.

Having an edge isn't enough, particularly given the large volitility and leverage present in many of the instruments day traders negotiate.

It's very similar to poker. You can walk into any major poker room in the US and find a spectrum of players with respect to their skills/knowledge. The players that are successful in the long term are the ones with diiscipline. Knowing the odds, knowing advanced concepts like pot odds, position, etc, isn't enough.

That's why I think BigMike's post is cogent, because the lessons learned from others is very helpful in living vicariously through someone else's failures. "A dumb man never learns, a smart man learns from his own mistakes, but a wise man learns from the mistakes of others."

For some of us, the solution is automation. Others, who prefer discretionary styles, need discipline more than they need help gaining an "edge."

As we've seen in several threads on this forum, you can take a random line and gain an "edge" from it. Indicators are a dime a dozen, the real secret to long term success is discipline and money management. Guys who can gain an expectation edge are a dime/dozen. Hell, I can take an indicator I've never used and craft a strategy that will give an edge very easily. It's being able to apply that edge that's the difficult part. Slippage, varying market conditions, knowing when to take profits and step out, knowing when to cut a loser short, etc, etc, etc. Those aren't "edge" issues (at least not in a first order aspect), those are psychology and human factor aspects.

I suppose you COULD favor strategies that reduce the human factor burden or avoid them more than others, and that would be a way to systematically remove discipline and money management challenges, but for most traders, on most instruments, using most methods, money management and psychology is the real factor that determines whether they'll be successful.

I agree with most of your post. Risk/money management is a critical part of any trading system, and the lack of such can wipe out any "edge". My point was more that you should do some statistical research regarding the expectancy of one's "edge". Maybe scaling in/out will reduce the risk, and increase profitability, and thus alleviate a lot of the psychological pressure. This is a logical and mechanical solution to what might be viewed as a psychological problem. Another problem is position sizing, something which can lead to severe stress if not handled properly.

I started out position trading stocks based on fundamental analysis, I didn't even know there was something called TA. I started in 2003, and so I had the power of a massive bull market on my side. Needless to say, I did reasonably well. As my interest for the markets grew, I decreased my timeframe. After a dabbling in swing trading, I moved on to trading index futures. I watched charts for about a year, not even placing a trade. Blew up my first $5000 account and have been profitable ever since. I was trading purely discretionary at first, but quickly added ATM. This made trading much less stressful, and it also made sense moneywise. As time progressed I automated more and more of my trading. I still trade bigger moves discretionary, but all of my "grinding" is done automatically. It doesn't make sense to spend my life glued in front my screens, I have other interests I want to pursue other than trading.

My main point was that a poorly developed trading strategy will add a lot of psychological stress, and that maybe focusing on tweaking system parameters will solve a lot of the psychological problems. If you are confident in your method, you will feel no stress. If you have sound risk/money management, each individual trade should not be a psychological burden. But if you do not have a system with positive expectancy you will "bleed to death by a thousand cuts"....

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  #246 (permalink)
 Lornz 
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itrade2win View Post
I truly regret posting in this thread at all, and this will be my last post on the subject. I hesitated in writing this post because I almost feel like I'm defending myself, but decided to go ahead and attempt to clarify my belief's on the subject and that is the only reason. Having an edge, controlling your emotions ie; (Psychology) and the proper MM setup are all part of the puzzle. I never said that not having a proven methodology is not important because it is. But, I can have a proven method and still have fear with my trading, hesitation to pull the trigger and/or bail out of a winning trade. We have all heard the phrase "cut your losers short and let your winners run". Most guys and myself included have been in a trade and the market moves in our favor +.15 to +.20 ticks and close the trade and then the market runs forever it seems and then there are times when you take some heat when the trade turns against you and then out of fear you close the trade and then it rolls over and had you stayed in the trade it would have been a winner. Why because of fear and the lack of control of your emotions. This sounds like Psychology to me. The point being is psychology play's the biggest part in trading. I look at Free Solo climbers, they have to have such discipline to climb ten's of thousands of feet up mountains without a rope or anything to protect them if they fall. Any lack of complete emotional discipline and they fall to their deaths. Wouldn't you say psychology is the biggest asset to their success?

I still hold my position that you will benefit the most from those with much more trading experience. Learning from less experienced mistakes??? Comon man, give me a break. If someone has been trading for lets say 2 to 3 years and the other guy is just starting out. How in the world can the guy with a few years experience learn for the newbie? The mistakes the newbie is making the the other guy has already made several times and should have overcome those mistakes. Is the newbie going to create a new way of making mistakes or being a losing trader? Experience is KEY here. Take the same two guys going for a job interview and lets take education out of the equation, who is more likely going to get the job? Please don't open up a can of worms here because yes there will be scenarios and circumstances when the less experience guy may get the job, but if anyone wants to debate it go for it. I know what I stand for and I know in my experience and what I have accomplished in my life and how I made my accomplishments have been the difference. No! I'm not being ignorant or patting myself on the back. If you knew my background and how I accomplished the successes I have you would understand where I come from and why I have my beliefs.

So for those that want to knock down what I have said go for it, I may chose to read it, and if I do I will decide to take it with a grain of salt if it is meaningless and the same debate that already has been created or if it has any real substance I may consider your position.

I might have been a little harsh, I am not looking to argue. I will admit that your posts irritated me slightly, you came across rather arrogant. Especially since you were (are?) not profitable. I would not dream of telling you how to run your advertising business, so I find it funny that you would lecture profitable traders on their profession.

But, believe it or not, my main objective was to offer advice to struggling traders. This tone on this forum is reminiscent of ET in the early 2000s, is it refreshing to see traders so intent on helping each other. I have seen quite a few people, who where very successful in the business world, lose their shirts while attempting to trade the markets. People who are good at sales, good at "getting things done" etc come into trading with a backwards view. A retail trader can't push the market around, so he has to let the market push him. Patience is a virtue that helps tremendously when it comes to trading. Trading is not like an extreme sport, and I should now, as I skateboarded for quite a few years. I won't equate that to free solo climbing though, those guys are crazy. Trading is systematic and boring (if you're doing it right). It is better to sit on the sidelines and wait for the right moment to jump in. If you trade a liquid market, you can just add contracts and increase your income dramatically. 5 points a week on the ES isn't much if you're trading 1 contract, but at a 100 it is quite decent. Compounding is the key to obtaining wealth from trading.

Well, you are thinking to linearly. There are countless ways to trade successfully, and thus, you can learn across experience levels. You might be an experienced discretionary trader, but with no programming experience. A struggling trader might help you with automating your strategy, and in the process you might even be able to tweak your methods to achieve better results. A new trader might have a degree in statistics or math, and maybe a discussion on a subject like fuzzy logic might trigger a thought process that helps you with your trading.
Experience is key. But a concept brought forth by a novice trader might help an experienced trader see things in a new way. Learning from struggling trades is mainly reserved when you are starting out, it can speed up your learning curve. But again, a less experienced trader might have done extensive research into neural networks e.g. which might save you some time. I think I have illustrated my point well enough...

One thing a novice trader can't teach, is experience. Experience is (IMO) the most critical "edge" any trader can have...

With regard to your example, I would say research is the answer to that. Would it be more profitable to scale out at a few ticks and let a portion run, or would it be better to let your stops hit and occasionally hit a home run. The ability to run such tests are dependent on the possibility of quantifying your method of course.

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 jstnbrg 
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RM99 View Post

Having an edge isn't enough, particularly given the large volitility and leverage present in many of the instruments day traders negotiate.

Having an edge may be an insufficient condition to success trading, but I absolutely agree with @Lornz that it is a necessary condition. I don't think it is so easy to find profitable methodologies. The competition in this business is extreme and getting more so.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."
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Day Trading Fool
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gg80108 View Post
"Primary source of income: how many have made it?".
The PNL is in the red, same as the overall odds?... or was this meant to be a rhetorical question?

FYI: I started going thru the all the posts to collect the stats... but after the first few pages I gave up.

This thread has been all over the place.

Perhaps the best info (as it pertains to the original intent of the thread, i.e., how valid are the 90/10 numbers?) is the survey found on this post:



Enough of an answer for me at least.

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jlancaster
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1) No its not my primary income
2) Nope. I make less that $100k/year from it although I do profit.
3) I spend between 2 and 3 hours a day trading.

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ChrisCJR
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Wow, this thread is really depressing! It in a way makes me want to avoid forums so that I can keep my positive mindset.

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 Lornz 
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ChrisCJR View Post
Wow, this thread is really depressing! It in a way makes me want to avoid forums so that I can keep my positive mindset.

It's not really depressing, these are the actual statistics of retail traders. It should motivate you to work harder, and smarter, to avoid ending up like the majority. I would emphasize that trading really doesn't have anything to do with having a positive mindset. Of course, being self-destructive will separate you from your money. However, the critical part is having a system with positive expectancy. This will most likely give you a positive mindset automatically anyway. Being positive without having an "edge" can be disastrous, a healthy dose of skepticism is recommended...

Good luck!

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 Fat Tails 
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Lornz View Post
It's not really depressing, these are the actual statistics of retail traders. It should motivate you to work harder, and smarter, to avoid ending up like the majority. I would emphasize that trading really doesn't have anything to do with having a positive mindset. Of course, being self-destructive will separate you from your money. However, the critical part is having a system with positive expectancy. This will most likely give you a positive mindset automatically anyway. Being positive without having an "edge" can be disastrous, a healthy dose of skepticism is recommended...

Good luck!

Having a structured approach with a positive expectancy is a necessary condition, as @jstnbrg has put it correctly.

But this is just the first step on the path to become a successful trader. Even, if you have an approach with a proven success history, you may not be able to trade it

- because you lack the discipline to execute it
- because you are sitting in front of your screen for too long a time and suffer from attention deficits
- because loss aversion causes you to use Martingale strategies or cut your profits short
- because your software goes long, when you want to enter a short position

Once you have an edge, your learned habits become the most important factor for success. Psychology is the tool used to unlearn bad habits and learn better habits. So psychology becomes most important in that second phase. It is obvious that a system trader is not as dependent on psychology as a discretionary trader. The system trader, however, has to master technical challenges.

Once you have an edge and you have adopted the habits of a successful trader, money management becomes the key.

I think that the process of becoming a trader is slow and there are distinguishable steps.

Step 1 -> Focus on entries, setups, exits, technical and fundamental analysis to develop an edge
Step 2 -> Learning good habits, unlearning bad habits, time management, nutrition, balance of life
Step 3 -> Focus on Risk and Money Management
Step 4 -> No idea, somebody else might tell me.

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 Anagami 
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Fat Tails View Post
Having a structured approach with a positive expectancy is a necessary condition, as @jstnbrg has put it correctly.

But this is just the first step on the path to become a successful trader. Even, if you have an approach with a proven success history, you may not be able to trade it

- because you lack the discipline to execute it
- because you are sitting in front of your screen for too long a time and suffer from attention deficits
- because loss aversion causes you to use Martingale strategies or cut your profits short
- because your software goes long, when you want to enter a short position

Once you have an edge, your learned habits become the most important factor for success. Psychology is the tool used to unlearn bad habits and learn better habits. So psychology becomes most important in that second phase. It is obvious that a system trader is not as dependent on psychology as a discretionary trader. The system trader, however, has to master technical challenges.

Once you have an edge and you have adopted the habits of a successful trader, money management becomes the key.

I think that the process of becoming a trader is slow and there are distinguishable steps.

Step 1 -> Focus on entries, setups, exits, technical and fundamental analysis to develop an edge
Step 2 -> Learning good habits, unlearning bad habits, time management, nutrition, balance of life
Step 3 -> Focus on Risk and Money Management
Step 4 -> No idea, somebody else might tell me.

Step 4 -> Focus on enjoying every moment, win or lose.

"The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven." - Milton
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  #254 (permalink)
 Lornz 
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Fat Tails View Post
Having a structured approach with a positive expectancy is a necessary condition, as @jstnbrg has put it correctly.

But this is just the first step on the path to become a successful trader. Even, if you have an approach with a proven success history, you may not be able to trade it

- because you lack the discipline to execute it
- because you are sitting in front of your screen for too long a time and suffer from attention deficits
- because loss aversion causes you to use Martingale strategies or cut your profits short
- because your software goes long, when you want to enter a short position

Once you have an edge, your learned habits become the most important factor for success. Psychology is the tool used to unlearn bad habits and learn better habits. So psychology becomes most important in that second phase. It is obvious that a system trader is not as dependent on psychology as a discretionary trader. The system trader, however, has to master technical challenges.

Once you have an edge and you have adopted the habits of a successful trader, money management becomes the key.

I think that the process of becoming a trader is slow and there are distinguishable steps.

Step 1 -> Focus on entries, setups, exits, technical and fundamental analysis to develop an edge
Step 2 -> Learning good habits, unlearning bad habits, time management, nutrition, balance of life
Step 3 -> Focus on Risk and Money Management
Step 4 -> No idea, somebody else might tell me.

I completely agree! My point was more that "a positive mindset" won't make you profitable. You can't "will" yourself successful in trading, something you can do in "most" vocations.

I might be a bit biased when it comes to the psychological aspect of trading. I have never really had a problem with fear or patience. I started sports betting while I was in high school, and progressed from there. I've always enjoyed extreme sports, and skateboarded for several years. Skateboarding is a lot like trading, it is extremely technical, but psychology is also a big factor. It is paramount to keep your calm and overcome fear, otherwise you'll end up with the rail between your legs. And trust me, you don't want that!

As I have a gambling background, I have alway been focused on risk and money management. This is where I have spent most of my energy with regard to system development. I have a tendency to believe that people suffering from psychological distress during trading, usually have not spent enough time refining their risk parameters. If you have done extensive research on the feasibility of your edge and your trade management rules, you should have enough confidence to trade your system without having a mental breakdown.

I guess you can argue that the ability to handle risk is genetic. Maybe not everyone can be a trader?
Having read a lot about neuroplasticity over the past few years, I firmly believe that people can alter their personality quite extensively. But there are some limitations. Maybe it all boils down to hunter vs. gatherer? In trading you need to be both, but it would be easier for the hunter to take on the role as gatherer than the other way around.

If I'm coming across as arrogant, I apologize, that is not my intent. It's more that I am a sensitive person, and having witnessed people lose their savings while trying to become a trader, has made its impact. Trading can lead to personal tragedies and dissolve families. A lot of new traders have an unrealistic approach to this business, and are not willing to do the necessary work. The sophistication of the competition should be exceedingly humbling, and one should do the legwork before risking one's capital. If one believes that trading is 95% psychological, it is my opinion that one will end up chasing one's own tail. But that's just one man's humble opinion. Take it for what it's worth...

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 jstnbrg 
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Quoting 
If I'm coming across as arrogant, I apologize, that is not my intent.

You are not. I have enjoyed your posts. Thanks.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."
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  #256 (permalink)
 Lornz 
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jstnbrg View Post
You are not. I have enjoyed your posts. Thanks.

Thanks, I appreciate it!

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  #257 (permalink)
 gg80108 
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Seems like the good trades take care of themselves, but its how u scramble on the bad trades is what keeps ur money,, course scrambling seems to be the hardest thing to develop IMHO.. The price only makes a difference when u exit....

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 Massive l 
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If you have a plan in place, there shouldn't be any scrambling IMO.

Maybe you mean something different or maybe we just have two different techniques.

I'm interested in knowing a little more about your technique when your trade goes against you.

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 gg80108 
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No meant scrambling,, I have observed many successful moderators pay rooms over the last 10 years.. The moderator made money the rest (myself) were the 95 loser /5 winner rule, even though everyone was trading the same "winning system". What the moderator seemed to have was the uncanny ability to ignore bad entries that the system produced ,have a tighter stop and creative exits, other then the blah blah so many tics stop.. Most did have a catastrophic stop but non of that xxtic stuff from the last swing,, etc,,,,xxxxx enter ur own,, that is obvious to everyone, and the pros just run ur stops.
Seems like in trading, size (of bank account) does matter...
My point is that this is like the "broken" play in sports, golf,football,etc the great ones(5%) make lemonaid the 95% just get the lemons.
If u have a truly "mechanical"plan, lets code it into a bot, for everyone to see that mechanical is good. If u can't write the rules so it could be coded , it aint a mechanical plan..

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 jstnbrg 
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Quoting 
The moderator made money the rest (myself) were the 95 loser /5 winner rule, even though everyone was trading the same "winning system". What the moderator seemed to have was the uncanny ability to ignore bad entries that the system produced ,have a tighter stop and creative exits, other then the blah blah so many tics stop.. Most did have a catastrophic stop but non of that xxtic stuff from the last swing,, etc,,,,xxxxx enter ur own,, that is obvious to everyone, and the pros just run ur stops.
Seems like in trading, size (of bank account) does matter...


Quoting 
My point is that this is like the "broken" play in sports, golf,football,etc the great ones(5%) make lemonaid the 95% just get the lemons.

The poster makes a good point. Almost all great pit traders that I knew could be very creative in getting out of bad trades. I was like that. Sometimes I would just take a loss, but often, for example, if the yield curve was very strong and I was long Five Year Notes, I would sell 30 year bonds against the trade and then just wait a long time. If the curve continued strong (and why shouldn't it, I'm basically saying it was a trend day) I could often scratch a bad loser. Of course, unless I continued scalping, I would forgo profit opportunities while I was waiting, often in the end a bad deal for a relatively high frequency trader. Guys who traded the curve for a living usually averaged into trades; their first entries on a FITE (five year/ten year spread) were often initially bad, and they would add more units at "better" prices, or they would "butterfly" off the trades, selling NOBs (ten yr./thirty yr. spreads) against their bad FITEs.

Sometimes I would have on a FOB that I had done deliberately, not selling 30 yrs. against a bad 5 yr. position but because I liked the trade, and it maybe would be a disaster. If one side of the spread was trending and the other was not, I might get out of the loser and just let the winner run. It was amazing how many times that worked, and often I'd go for a much larger profit on the good leg than I usually took while scalping. It was in the category of "heroics".

Many years after the fact, my reaction to this seat-of-the-pants risk management is like the car ad where the caption warns "Professional driver on a closed course, don't try this at home". It's bad trading for all but the best capitalized and experienced traders, because if you are successful a couple of times you forget about your discipline. When I did it in the pit I still set myself an absolute "get out" point.

In my opinion, all trades can be categorized in one of 4 ways, each of which requires a different exit strategy. The four categories are, 1: a good entry level with a well conceived trade, 2: a poor entry level with a well conceived trade, 3: a good entry level with a poorly conceived trade, and 4: a poor entry level with a poorly conceived trade. In the first case the trade will never be much against you and you squeeze the trade for a large profit. In the second, you can afford to wait even though you initially take heat because the market will eventually make you whole. In the third you may get a quick profit, and you should take it because time is going to turn the trade against you. In the fourth you should take your loss the second you realize it was a poorly conceived trade, because time will just make it worse. The big trick is recognizing case 3, because the profit may blind you to the fact you made a mistake. I realize that some of this may seem odd to the non-pit trader; why would someone make a poorly conceived trade? The reason is because in the pit we did not always get to choose the trades we made. Our job was to create liquidity and that meant often taking trades we did not like. This was especially true in the 30 Year Bond pit. Harris Brumfield, founder of Trading Technologies and a truly great trader with cojones the size of watermelons, left the bond pit because brokers were constantly taking him out of trades he wanted to be in.

A question about these trading rooms, as I've never been in one: can you talk to the moderator? Can you ask him what he saw this time that made him deviate from his rules? If not, what are you paying for?

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."
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  #261 (permalink)
 mmtrader4 
Chicago, IL
 
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jstnbrg View Post

A question about these trading rooms, as I've never been in one: can you talk to the moderator? Can you ask him what he saw this time that made him deviate from his rules? If not, what are you paying for?


Yes, in the good rooms you can. I've been in four and (taken three trials also - curiosity and I DON'T trade live in a trial room nor recommend it) I will not divulge who any of the rooms are as this forum is not about sales pitches OK?. I am currently in one and do NOT take every trade, I am discretionary also. The moderator trades a live account and makes money DAILY, yes daily. NOTE!!- I didn't say there is never a losing trade, I said he (we) make money daily. And I am happy.
The difference between a good room / moderator / mentor trader is the really good ones know how to take money out of the market daily. It's about positive expectancy and law of averages with a proven track record. I KNOW you've heard it thousands of times; but it is true. Plain and simple. The good ones teach money management and are truly interested in your success. YES, there are people that give a damn about others. I am tired of hearing, " if his / her system is so good why would they want to share it with anybody." BECAUSE - Some people care! And trading is a lonely business. A room can be rewarding. Personally, If I was that good I would do it (be a room mentor moderator) because I've given back my whole life so it's in my mental makeup.
I was also in a room where the moderator was so confident in his methodologies he allowed PM's between members. You cannot get any better than that - he was that confident that traders could talk with each other.
The "bad" rooms prohibit any contact with other traders and some don't even allow you to post. STAY AWAY for obvious reasons.

I'm not advocating you all go out and join a room. I am just responding to jstnbrg. OK?

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  #262 (permalink)
 Surly 
denver, colorado
 
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I hope this post is "on topic" enough for this thread...

I'm posting because the discussion of the importance of psychology has been critical for me and also very difficult for me to understand during my development and posting here will help me reinforce my own beliefs. My premise is that psychology becomes important only once a trader has developed an edge and that developing an edge is actually the most important (and difficult) piece of the puzzle in becoming consistently profitable. I think that developing traders would do well to understand that no amount of discipline, self-control, and clear thinking will help them until they have a robust method with a positive expectancy. That said, a developing trader will never be able to develop a robust edge without removing, at least to a large degree, the mistakes (both in perception and execution) that stem from insufficiently developed psychology. This may seem like a chicken-and-egg cop-out on the fundamental question but I think the distinction is important to consider.

We all know that it is easy to pick winning trades but that trading profitably on a consistent basis is a different beast entirely. So why do I think developing a method with a positive expectancy is more important than perfecting psychology? A post in forex factory I've kept with me from David Hanover (he's an excellent source of good thoughts on the subject of trading) mirrors my thinking:

"This must be about the 99th time I’ve posted this type of message.
It’s addressed to all of those well-meaning folk who believe that:

-- you can succeed in forex with MM and discipline alone
-- the system doesn’t matter; it’s all about the trader, his mindset, and his mastery of self
-- it’s possible to profit in the long term by using random entries
-- trading psychology books (like Mark Douglas'), and/or clichés posted on forums, tell you most of what you need to know

Consider this:

An EA will trade according to strict MM rules, and with perfect discipline. Writing an EA that “enters every emerging move, cuts losses short, lets profits run, and risks only 1% (or 2%) of your account per trade” is a very simple algorithm to program. An EA will trade 24/7, executing a plan flawlessly, consistently, tirelessly, emotionlessly. It removes the trader, his mindset, and any lack of self-mastery, from the equation altogether. An EA automatically guarantees all of the following: Adherence to strict MM rules. Perfect accuracy of execution. Endless patience. Unwavering discipline. No fear, greed or hesitation. Immunity from hunches, guesswork or outside ‘noise’. Around-the-clock trading that’s unaffected by tiredness, illness, stress, negative attitudes. No data entry errors. Much more recreational time for the trader, away from his PC.

But I think it’s fairly obvious that, if long-term profit was this easily attainable, then everybody would own such an EA, and we’d all be forex millionaires.

So here's my point: If MM and discipline are all that’s needed, and an EA addresses them perfectly, why do the vast majority of EAs ultimately fail? The answer is much the same reason why 95% (or whatever the number is) of traders do likewise. Their ‘market knowledge’ of how, when – and possibly why – prices move, simply isn’t good enough. Their analysis isn’t intelligent or accurate enough to locate ‘on-balance’ profitable price patterns, cycles, or behavior that’s potentially robust enough to last a lifetime. Or, failing that, they’re not smart enough to periodically evaluate whether such an inefficiency is still operating as profitably as it did previously, and if necessary adapt accordingly."

end-of-quote

It is so easy for developing traders (like I have done and may still be doing) to delude themselves into thinking that they DO have a winning methodology and it is because of their lack of psychological "prowess" that they are not consistently profitable. Our human nature and cognitive biases will cause us to mistakenly interpret our results to support whatever hypothesis we have about the importance of psychology vs. method. My message to developing traders is this: Do not delude yourself into thinking you have a winning methodology until you do. Psychology and method must evolve together and psychological "prowess" will only come into line when you gain confidence that your approach *WORKS*. You will only get to this point after you've put in enough screen time using a consistent approach - this is why Mike's challenge to leave everything the same for two weeks and Gary's excellent post here are both critical to understand.

Surly

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  #263 (permalink)
 Lornz 
Oslo, Norway
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: CQG, Excel
Trading: CL
 
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jstnbrg View Post
The poster makes a good point. Almost all great pit traders that I knew could be very creative in getting out of bad trades. I was like that. Sometimes I would just take a loss, but often, for example, if the yield curve was very strong and I was long Five Year Notes, I would sell 30 year bonds against the trade and then just wait a long time. If the curve continued strong (and why shouldn't it, I'm basically saying it was a trend day) I could often scratch a bad loser. Of course, unless I continued scalping, I would forgo profit opportunities while I was waiting, often in the end a bad deal for a relatively high frequency trader. Guys who traded the curve for a living usually averaged into trades; their first entries on a FITE (five year/ten year spread) were often initially bad, and they would add more units at "better" prices, or they would "butterfly" off the trades, selling NOBs (ten yr./thirty yr. spreads) against their bad FITEs.

Sometimes I would have on a FOB that I had done deliberately, not selling 30 yrs. against a bad 5 yr. position but because I liked the trade, and it maybe would be a disaster. If one side of the spread was trending and the other was not, I might get out of the loser and just let the winner run. It was amazing how many times that worked, and often I'd go for a much larger profit on the good leg than I usually took while scalping. It was in the category of "heroics".

Many years after the fact, my reaction to this seat-of-the-pants risk management is like the car ad where the caption warns "Professional driver on a closed course, don't try this at home". It's bad trading for all but the best capitalized and experienced traders, because if you are successful a couple of times you forget about your discipline. When I did it in the pit I still set myself an absolute "get out" point.

In my opinion, all trades can be categorized in one of 4 ways, each of which requires a different exit strategy. The four categories are, 1: a good entry level with a well conceived trade, 2: a poor entry level with a well conceived trade, 3: a good entry level with a poorly conceived trade, and 4: a poor entry level with a poorly conceived trade. In the first case the trade will never be much against you and you squeeze the trade for a large profit. In the second, you can afford to wait even though you initially take heat because the market will eventually make you whole. In the third you may get a quick profit, and you should take it because time is going to turn the trade against you. In the fourth you should take your loss the second you realize it was a poorly conceived trade, because time will just make it worse. The big trick is recognizing case 3, because the profit may blind you to the fact you made a mistake. I realize that some of this may seem odd to the non-pit trader; why would someone make a poorly conceived trade? The reason is because in the pit we did not always get to choose the trades we made. Our job was to create liquidity and that meant often taking trades we did not like. This was especially true in the 30 Year Bond pit. Harris Brumfield, founder of Trading Technologies and a truly great trader with cojones the size of watermelons, left the bond pit because brokers were constantly taking him out of trades he wanted to be in.

A question about these trading rooms, as I've never been in one: can you talk to the moderator? Can you ask him what he saw this time that made him deviate from his rules? If not, what are you paying for?

Thanks for sharing. I attended a seminar in Chicago a few years a back and I visited both the CBOT and the CME. It was quite an experience. Ben Lichtenstein of Traders Audio gave us a tour of the CME, it was really exciting to actually get to walk on the trading floor. I can only imagine how active it was in the "good ol' days".
I find it ironic that a lot of floor traders struggle to adapt to screen trading; I wouldn't have lasted five minutes in the pit!

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  #264 (permalink)
 Lornz 
Oslo, Norway
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: CQG, Excel
Trading: CL
 
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Surly View Post
I hope this post is "on topic" enough for this thread...

I'm posting because the discussion of the importance of psychology has been critical for me and also very difficult for me to understand during my development and posting here will help me reinforce my own beliefs. My premise is that psychology becomes important only once a trader has developed an edge and that developing an edge is actually the most important (and difficult) piece of the puzzle in becoming consistently profitable. I think that developing traders would do well to understand that no amount of discipline, self-control, and clear thinking will help them until they have a robust method with a positive expectancy. That said, a developing trader will never be able to develop a robust edge without removing, at least to a large degree, the mistakes (both in perception and execution) that stem from insufficiently developed psychology. This may seem like a chicken-and-egg cop-out on the fundamental question but I think the distinction is important to consider.

We all know that it is easy to pick winning trades but that trading profitably on a consistent basis is a different beast entirely. So why do I think developing a method with a positive expectancy is more important than perfecting psychology? A post in forex factory I've kept with me from David Hanover (he's an excellent source of good thoughts on the subject of trading) mirrors my thinking:

"This must be about the 99th time I’ve posted this type of message.
It’s addressed to all of those well-meaning folk who believe that:

-- you can succeed in forex with MM and discipline alone
-- the system doesn’t matter; it’s all about the trader, his mindset, and his mastery of self
-- it’s possible to profit in the long term by using random entries
-- trading psychology books (like Mark Douglas'), and/or clichés posted on forums, tell you most of what you need to know

Consider this:

An EA will trade according to strict MM rules, and with perfect discipline. Writing an EA that “enters every emerging move, cuts losses short, lets profits run, and risks only 1% (or 2%) of your account per trade” is a very simple algorithm to program. An EA will trade 24/7, executing a plan flawlessly, consistently, tirelessly, emotionlessly. It removes the trader, his mindset, and any lack of self-mastery, from the equation altogether. An EA automatically guarantees all of the following: Adherence to strict MM rules. Perfect accuracy of execution. Endless patience. Unwavering discipline. No fear, greed or hesitation. Immunity from hunches, guesswork or outside ‘noise’. Around-the-clock trading that’s unaffected by tiredness, illness, stress, negative attitudes. No data entry errors. Much more recreational time for the trader, away from his PC.

But I think it’s fairly obvious that, if long-term profit was this easily attainable, then everybody would own such an EA, and we’d all be forex millionaires.

So here's my point: If MM and discipline are all that’s needed, and an EA addresses them perfectly, why do the vast majority of EAs ultimately fail? The answer is much the same reason why 95% (or whatever the number is) of traders do likewise. Their ‘market knowledge’ of how, when – and possibly why – prices move, simply isn’t good enough. Their analysis isn’t intelligent or accurate enough to locate ‘on-balance’ profitable price patterns, cycles, or behavior that’s potentially robust enough to last a lifetime. Or, failing that, they’re not smart enough to periodically evaluate whether such an inefficiency is still operating as profitably as it did previously, and if necessary adapt accordingly."

end-of-quote

It is so easy for developing traders (like I have done and may still be doing) to delude themselves into thinking that they DO have a winning methodology and it is because of their lack of psychological "prowess" that they are not consistently profitable. Our human nature and cognitive biases will cause us to mistakenly interpret our results to support whatever hypothesis we have about the importance of psychology vs. method. My message to developing traders is this: Do not delude yourself into thinking you have a winning methodology until you do. Psychology and method must evolve together and psychological "prowess" will only come into line when you gain confidence that your approach *WORKS*. You will only get to this point after you've put in enough screen time using a consistent approach - this is why Mike's challenge to leave everything the same for two weeks and Gary's excellent post here are both critical to understand.

Surly

Great post! This sums up my stance perfectly.

I think there might be some confusion, or possibly disagreement, with regard to terminology .

Poor risk and money management might, or rather will, ruin a profitable system. But there has to be a an edge to begin with. To say it's easy to find a system with positive expectancy is a fallacy, and I think it's dangerous for traders to delude themselves with such thoughts.
Know what your system is. Discretionary traders are actually using an automatic system too. They're relying on the pattern recognition and modelling done by the marvelous biological computer that is our mind. Intuition comes from the subconscious and/or unconscious mind. This means one can not necessarily easily quantify one's method, but it does not mean calculations aren't being performed.
If you have a profitable method, you can program it. There would be no discretion needed. If you can't program it, that means your system is a grey box. The grey, in this case, is referring to your own grey matter. It might be that the process is subconscious and one can "dig up" the information if one tries, or your impulses might stem from the unconscious mind and you are at the mercy of the unknown.

It's impossible for a retail trader to compete with the HFT machines, but it's not impossible to run profitable algorithms from one's own home. The opposite is usually perpetuated by those who failed develop such algorithms.

In both cases psychology plays a big part. You need rational and logical thinking to be able to trade either way. If one's perception is not clear, one will not be able to develop and/or execute a solid system.

Good luck, and good trading!

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  #265 (permalink)
 MetalTrade 
 
 
Posts: 1,081 since May 2010


Lornz View Post
Thanks for sharing. I attended a seminar in Chicago a few years a back and I visited both the CBOT and the CME. It was quite an experience. Ben Lichtenstein of Traders Audio gave us a tour of the CME, it was really exciting to actually get to walk on the trading floor. I can only imagine how active it was in the "good ol' days".
I find it ironic that a lot of floor traders struggle to adapt to screen trading; I wouldn't have lasted five minutes in the pit!

That's because the edge that pit traders used is gone completely on the screen. Fortunately.

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  #266 (permalink)
 Lornz 
Oslo, Norway
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: CQG, Excel
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MetalTrade View Post
That's because the edge that pit traders used is gone completely on the screen. Fortunately.

Yes, I am aware of that. I was just pointing out that I would be eaten alive in such a stressful environment, regardless of edge...

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  #267 (permalink)
 MetalTrade 
 
 
Posts: 1,081 since May 2010


Lornz View Post
Yes, I am aware of that. I was just pointing out that I would be eaten alive in such a stressful environment, regardless of edge...

Bah, strange remark. In fact, I think the stress level on the screen is bigger, because it's harder to make money.

It was way easier for the boys in the pit to make money.

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  #268 (permalink)
 Lornz 
Oslo, Norway
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: CQG, Excel
Trading: CL
 
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MetalTrade View Post
Bah, strange remark. In fact, I think the stress level on the screen is bigger, because it's harder to make money.

It was way easier for the boys in the pit to make money.

I don't get stressed when it comes to screen trading, I actually find it soothing. The vastness of information easily accessible by a keystroke gives me a "zenlike" feeling of being in control. On the other hand, having people yelling and shoving me around, I find quite stressful....

Just to clarify, I grew up playing sports and the problem is not that I am physically impaired. It's just that, at least for me, trading is an intellectual exercise. And my intellect is far more efficient in less disturbing atmospheres. I'm not claiming that my experiences are indicative for all traders, I simply conveyed my thoughts on the subject from a personal perspective...

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  #269 (permalink)
 gg80108 
Castle Pines N, CO.
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Amp Futures/Zen-Fire)
Trading: ES
 
Posts: 201 since Jul 2009
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I find it amazing that more don't follow the "Battle of the Bots" since this shows pure rules/execution at its core. Maybe there is a big silent majority following these? no psycho involved /flawless execution .(2/3 of the grail? )..

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  #270 (permalink)
 dave73 
U.S.A
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: mt4, NT
Trading: CL, TF, 6E
 
Posts: 8 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 6 given, 1 received

The comments here reaffirm my belief, no matter what the percentages of success vs. failure or method used, that trading is still the hardest way[path] to make[ing] an easy living.

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  #271 (permalink)
 skyfly 
Texas
 
 
Posts: 113 since Jun 2010

The Truth is that not one person on this futures.io (formerly BMT) is willing to produce anything that proves they have made it. However they are all willing to make indicators, and write their journals, and "join the elite" team. And those same people will defend themselves by saying " I do not have to prove anything to you"! Well, ok, I guess ya don't. But then dont say you make your living from trading, that's pretty generic. I mean come on, your making your living from trading, and your hanging around here? That doesn't even sound right, Come on....!!!

The truth is that all the people who sell programs, and systems and on and on, have figured it out. Big Mike himself has figured it out. They have figured out how to make money from trading, TEACH IT, write about it, talk about it, make indicators for it, write journals for it, do everything under the sun except actually make money from it. The Bible says their is "Nothing new under the sun" and thats true here too.


Why is it that we see this same question? "Can a trader make it " Why is that? It's because no one is making it, and everyone is experiencing the exact same thing. You know why you do not find a person willing to prove it, because would you, if you had it! No..no you wouldnt, and their is no man or woman that is making a living trading sitting at their computer on a Sunday night or whatever night for that matter, scrolling through futures.io (formerly BMT) website.

Thats the truth.

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  #272 (permalink)
 jonc 
australia
 
Experience: Beginner
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skyfly View Post
The Truth is that not one person on this futures.io (formerly BMT) is willing to produce anything that proves they have made it. However they are all willing to make indicators, and write their journals, and "join the elite" team. And those same people will defend themselves by saying " I do not have to prove anything to you"! Well, ok, I guess ya don't. But then dont say you make your living from trading, that's pretty generic. I mean come on, your making your living from trading, and your hanging around here? That doesn't even sound right, Come on....!!!

The truth is that all the people who sell programs, and systems and on and on, have figured it out. Big Mike himself has figured it out. They have figured out how to make money from trading, TEACH IT, write about it, talk about it, make indicators for it, write journals for it, do everything under the sun except actually make money from it. The Bible says their is "Nothing new under the sun" and thats true here too.


Why is it that we see this same question? "Can a trader make it " Why is that? It's because no one is making it, and everyone is experiencing the exact same thing. You know why you do not find a person willing to prove it, because would you, if you had it! No..no you wouldnt, and their is no man or woman that is making a living trading sitting at their computer on a Sunday night or whatever night for that matter, scrolling through futures.io (formerly BMT) website.

Thats the truth.

are you are saying no one on bmt actually trades profitably consistently and do it for a living?

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  #273 (permalink)
 Xeno 
UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Ninja
Broker: Mirus/Zen
Trading: Futures - bonds, currencies, index
 
Posts: 288 since Oct 2010
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skyfly View Post
The Truth is that not one person on this futures.io (formerly BMT) is willing to produce anything that proves they have made it. However they are all willing to make indicators, and write their journals, and "join the elite" team. And those same people will defend themselves by saying " I do not have to prove anything to you"! Well, ok, I guess ya don't. But then dont say you make your living from trading,

Why not? It's just answering a question. If people asking questions online aren't going to believe answers unless they're given endless proof maybe those people should take a good hard look at themselves.


Quoting 
Why is it that we see this same question? "Can a trader make it " Why is that?

Obviously, because there's a endless stream of people getting into trading that can't do it successfully. (Actually I'd go so far as say that trading attracts people who aren't suited to it)


Quoting 
Thats the truth.

Trading hasn't been good to you, has it? ;-)

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  #274 (permalink)
 gg80108 
Castle Pines N, CO.
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Amp Futures/Zen-Fire)
Trading: ES
 
Posts: 201 since Jul 2009
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skyfly View Post
The Truth is that not one person on this futures.io (formerly BMT) is willing to produce anything that proves they have made it. However they are all willing to make indicators, and write their journals, and "join the elite" team. And those same people will defend themselves by saying " I do not have to prove anything to you"! Well, ok, I guess ya don't. But then dont say you make your living from trading, that's pretty generic. I mean come on, your making your living from trading, and your hanging around here? That doesn't even sound right, Come on....!!!

The truth is that all the people who sell programs, and systems and on and on, have figured it out. Big Mike himself has figured it out. They have figured out how to make money from trading, TEACH IT, write about it, talk about it, make indicators for it, write journals for it, do everything under the sun except actually make money from it. The Bible says their is "Nothing new under the sun" and thats true here too.


Why is it that we see this same question? "Can a trader make it " Why is that? It's because no one is making it, and everyone is experiencing the exact same thing. You know why you do not find a person willing to prove it, because would you, if you had it! No..no you wouldnt, and their is no man or woman that is making a living trading sitting at their computer on a Sunday night or whatever night for that matter, scrolling through futures.io (formerly BMT) website.

Thats the truth.

I agree since this is one of the easiest speculation results reporting to do on ur income taxes sure would give some credibility of those that appear to say they made money... ,, One entry bottom line from the broker tax statement... We need to come up with a catchy name (similar to birther) for the paper.. I will post my brokerage form and maybe I win by losing the least , which some construe as winning!!!!

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  #275 (permalink)
 Caveman 
Edmond,Oklahoma,United States
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Mirus Futures/Zen-Fire
Trading: ES, CL
 
Posts: 19 since Sep 2010
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I have been one of those "failed" traders and am working on a comeback. I think the point here is that we all enjoy the risk/reward trading provides for us and we are obviously willing to take that risk. At the end of the day I think the definition of a successful trader is someone who enjoys it regardless of profit/loss. If we only measured life in successes we would all be total failures.

I have often thought if we could build an indicator that actually went against the flow - we would be more profitable. I read in one of the earlier posts where someone jumped into a market and "hoped the market moved in their direction" - and this has got to be the most common feeling any of us have. It's obvious to those of us who have taken some pretty hard lessons to the curb that our instinct isn't going to cut it. I may actually attempt an "Against my instinct" trading week and see what happens

As to the original questions posed. I have not been successful, but only because I have taken stupid losses. I am not making a living off of trading but I am learning how to trade and that makes me happy. Trading has humbled me, and I think everyone can use a little humility in their lives. Just my 2 pips.

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  #276 (permalink)
 Xeno 
UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Broker: Mirus/Zen
Trading: Futures - bonds, currencies, index
 
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Caveman View Post
At the end of the day I think the definition of a successful trader is someone who enjoys it regardless of profit/loss. If we only measured life in successes we would all be total failures.

Assuming you're meaning people who consistently make an affordable loss every month and are happy with that - I'm afraid they're better classed as gamblers rather than traders.


Quoting 
I have often thought if we could build an indicator that actually went against the flow

If you learn why that doesn't work you'll have taken a decent shortcut in your learning.

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  #277 (permalink)
 Caveman 
Edmond,Oklahoma,United States
 
Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Mirus Futures/Zen-Fire
Trading: ES, CL
 
Posts: 19 since Sep 2010
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Xeno I was simply pointing out the fact that success should be measured by a little more than the pocket book. On the second quote - that was meant in humor to contrast the fact that instincts tend to be wrong.

Oh, and every trade is a gamble unless you've got it all figured out.

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  #278 (permalink)
 sinisa 
Melbourne, Australia
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
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I am sorry guys, but this is really funny. The people that asking for proof if trading does work, most likelly have no idea what they want from trading and do not understand basics and never actually looked back as to what they really doing... All this may sound hash, but i guess i'll give you my story.....

Actuall have strated trading about 12 years ago with options. At that time i was very succesfull in my carrer as Solution Architect (IT-Telecommunications) and was running my own little consultancy business. My wife showed me marketing for Optionetics course and greed kicked in. I thought after reading their info-mercials wow, great work for an hour a week and you can do it over the weekend and make all these 100000% profit, how cool. So off i went. And as with majority of begginers made shitloads of money in first couple of weeks only to loose it all over next few months and much more than that.

At that time i was only focused on a 'ghost trades' no risk maximum return, happy life and absolute greed was driving me into the pits of despair. Went back and repeated the exercise couple of times changing the approach but did not change the fundamentals

The finally i met few people and got close enough to discuss more of the internals, and simple fact is the trading is just as any other business. Treated the same way. Consider how much have you invested in your current job and knowledge versus trading (in the form of learning and experience) Before i claim the ladder in my profession it took me years, how could have i expected that i will be succesfull in trading after 5 day course ( ) Funny is in it when youlook into that. Once you follow the method of learning and experience everyone will get there sooner or later. After that for four years i have not been trading as such (real money) Just studing, different methods, instruments and so on. It was a tedious work of backtesting, practicing on paper my methods, proving them and enusring that they are adaptive. Developing the intuition about teh price action and seing all the facts that needed to be seen to confirm TP's and continuations and the most important build confidence in trust into myself then developin the business plan, trading plan, adjusting it and fine tuning it and create understanding that as my eductaion and life go on, my BP will change, my TP will change and adopt, nothing is fixed and every day markets are different.

Once i was happy with that i started trading again, and further evolved, where now most of my income comes from FX SPOT and different approach to Options and daily charts, and so on....

Guys, it is simple, follow the basics, fine tune them and make sure that your head is in the write spot. There where few posts that mentioned 'Trading in the zone' read it and get in the 'zone'. and be preapred for this:

  • Take what market gives you, no more and no less
  • Trade only when you are in the 'Zone'
  • Trade only when market is tradable by your method
And you can make living, have reasonable expectations and do not trade what you can not afford to loose. Make sure that you neve trade while your wife is screaming give me the money!!! (Oooooppss that never happens) What i mean do not beunder pressure to make money while you trading. it will force you to jump into stupid trades and chase and not be confident into your entries......

I mean this is the topic you can write the 'War and Peace' about, but if you loosing money in the markets go back to basics and practice discipline, get confidence into the mathod and be patient

Good luck to everyone

Markets are logical and
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  #279 (permalink)
 jstnbrg 
Chicago, Illinois
 
Experience: Advanced
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[QU
Quoting 
I mean come on, your making your living from trading, and your hanging around here? That doesn't even sound right, Come on....!!!

I have not yet made a living trading on the screen but I made more in my best year in the pits than most people make in a lifetime (and I never had a losing year in the 16 years I spent in the pits and had very few losing months). I would be on this site even if I were still making that kind of money. There are some very smart people here.

I don't think Big Mike is doing this for the money. I think he's doing it for the education he's getting.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."
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  #280 (permalink)
 Xeno 
UK
 
Experience: Intermediate
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Caveman View Post
Xeno I was simply pointing out the fact that success should be measured by a little more than the pocket book. On the second quote - that was meant in humor to contrast the fact that instincts tend to be wrong.

Oh, and every trade is a gamble unless you've got it all figured out.

There's a difference between enjoyment and success. You can enjoy your trading, but that doesn't make you a success if you're a consistent loser.

Every trade is not a gamble, if you have a decent and well tested system with a definable and real edge.

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  #281 (permalink)
 skyfly 
Texas
 
 
Posts: 113 since Jun 2010

I do not believe their is one person who is a member of this web site that get's his money from trading. That's my opinion. But I back it up with the fact that not one person can prove it.

Look, if someone was in my face about not being a successful trader, and asking for proof, I'd get on a plane or a car or a bicycle to get to your front door, and shove it in your face. I would shove it in your face. No more sentences written about how funny it is for someone to even ask the question, nothing else said, just shove in your face.

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  #282 (permalink)
 Trankuility 
California
 
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Why would someone who's successful go out of their way to shove anything in your face other then their balls? Being so enthusiastic at having something in your face it would be hard to resist letting you have a go.

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  #283 (permalink)
 Xeno 
UK
 
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skyfly View Post
I do not believe their is one person who is a member of this web site that get's his money from trading. That's my opinion. But I back it up with the fact that not one person can prove it.

Look, if someone was in my face about not being a successful trader, and asking for proof, I'd get on a plane or a car or a bicycle to get to your front door, and shove it in your face. I would shove it in your face. No more sentences written about how funny it is for someone to even ask the question, nothing else said, just shove in your face.

You think your post is in their face?? Too funny.

I imagine their self esteem is has taken a big hit to be challenged so on the internet! It's probably affecting their trading. I imagine they'll be arrving in droves at your door.

Either that or they glanced at your post whilst they were doing better things.

Nice try. Remember, these guys have a pretty decent handle on psychology.

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  #284 (permalink)
JetTrader
Edmonton, Canada
 
 
Posts: 187 since Apr 2011
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1. Is trading your primary source of income?: Yes.
2. Do you make over $100k/year in trading? Yes.
3. How long did you trade prior to making trading your primary source of income?: 5 years.
4. Number of years trading?: 10 years.

What you did not ask was:

5. What was the total cost of your trading education (how much money have you lost)?: $20,000.00.

6. Before you became a full-time trader, how many times did you feel like quitting?: 2 times.

7. Are you on a Retail or Institutional trading platform?: Institutional (65%). Retail (5%).

8. Do you hold cash in assets other than the primary instruments that you trade?: Yes. Gold & Platinum (30%).

9. What difficulty ranking (1 Very Easy - 10 Hardest Thing I've Ever Done) would you give to becoming a successful trader?: 10.

10. What was the worst drawback of becoming a successful trader?: The toll it took on family. The hours spend working were beyond anything a human being should have to do.

11. If you had to do it all over again - would you?: I don't know how to answer that question. I just don't know. It has been a difficult and highly stressful process and the cost was very high.

12. What's the largest purchase you have made with revenue from your trading business?: An undisclosed amount (literally - it was undisclosed by contract).

13. Are you now happy with your career choice:? Yes. However, it was a very difficult road to travel personally, given the level of work involved.

14. Would you encourage others to become traders?: Yes, under several conditions.

a) That the individual be single, not married and without children when they begin their study and research.
b) That the individual be in control of their emotions to the extent possible.
c) That the individual have no lingering heart or coronary problems.
d) That the individual be of sound mind and good judgement.
e) That the individual be of high ethical standing and intellectually honest.
f) That the individual have the capacity for long durations of mental focus and concentration.
g) That the individual have excellent organizational skills.
h) That the individual have an excellent strategic thought process.
i) That the individual have the natural capacity to think outside the box of convention.
j) That the individual have a natural capacity for creative thought.
k) That the individual have the capacity to maintain health work habits.
l) That the individual have a good reason for wanting to become a full-time Trader.

Some may be wondering: "what about having sufficient capital to start - don't you need that?" The reason I did not list that, is because with today's trading technology, you really don't need it. You can get very accurate trading simulation with the current technology now available, that was not available 20-30 years ago, when all you could do was paper trade.

Today, you can derive the same tactile sensation and some of the same "emotional" sensation that you can with trading a live account. Of course, the emotional variable goes up with real cash on the line, but that can be done with a smaller amount these days.

For example: I reserve 5% of my capital on a retail trading platform, expressly for the purpose of trading new concepts that I integrate into a research version of my active trading system. So, I don't lose the tactile sensation and I have a little real money on the line. This keeps the appropriate neurons in my brain firing when they are supposed to - which I would not get with pure paper trading. So, you do need some real cash trading experience before going live with 100% capital, but that can be done these days with a relatively small outlay in a retail test account, just to make sure the neural networks in your brain are properly trained.

Pure paper or pure demo trading, if done over a prolonged period of time, does not allow for full neuron (neuro network) development, which is vital to being able to rely upon the decision making process in real-time cash based trading. The neurological aspects of trading (decision making) won't be fully understood or fully appreciated by the new trader. But, the first time they put real money on the line, after spending an untold amount of time developing their system or methodology, the concept will become crystal clear to them.

You have to train your brain to handle the business of training, too. A very much overlooked and underrated topic, but one that the new trader should learn to appreciate before they get too deep into Demo/Paper Trading. In fact, I would say to skip the Paper altogether and just do Demo mixed with a small (real) Cash account. Your brain has to get up to speed in the idea that real cash is on the line and the decisions have to be consistent, just like in Demo trading.

Just ask any athlete to put this into perspective for you. You're live performance will be very much the way you practice. Trading is a business and it is meant to be taken seriously. No different than any other serious minded business.

I hope that this helps the dialogue somewhat.

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  #285 (permalink)
JetTrader
Edmonton, Canada
 
 
Posts: 187 since Apr 2011
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Eric j View Post
If its true then why are there so many brokers , dealers , platforms , software , vendors , coaches , mentors , books , indicators etc. ? Who feeds them ? Do so many people wash out then get replaced by more rubes ? Like I said , it just gets my feathers ruffled lol .

You make a very good point.

If 95% are failing, as the saying goes, then that means that all of the businesses dependent on new traders (new blood), has to basically replace 95% of its clientele every X number of weeks, months or years. Of course, the rate of wash-out will be staggered through time, so the rate of replacement will be the same. It is not like on Tuesday, October 2nd at 5pm local, a particular Broker will have to replace 95% of its customer base - that's not what I'm saying. But, I am saying that at some point that year, they will have replaced 95% of their client agreements on file.

I don't even think McDonald's has that kind of new customer turn-over rate - do they? It seems very high on the surface. So, how can what is supposed to be a much more stable business model, have such a turn-over?

You make a really, really, really good point.

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  #286 (permalink)
JetTrader
Edmonton, Canada
 
 
Posts: 187 since Apr 2011
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webart View Post
There are much easier ways to make money than from trading.

I agree with almost everything you said, until you typed that line above.

It's funny, when you stop to think about it - all the different experiences that people have had down through the years. I really (honestly) don't know of any other way to not just make money, but build real wealth, than from trading. I think it really depends on the edge that one ultimately develops and how much of what they have learned, they can then apply to their trading.

Example: Let's take two traders, Earl and Jane.

Both have been conducting research on their respective trading system and/or trading methodology for exactly the same length of time. Both are technical traders. Both strongly believe in the absolute need to verify and certify their trading ideas and theories through rigorous back testing and forward testing, over equal periods of time. Both come from very disciplined professional backgrounds and so both bring to their respective trading, an equal amount of mental focus, acuity and decision making ability. Both start with $30,000.

In less than 5 months, Earl is down to $5,000. In that same time span, Jane, is up to $55,000. What happened - they were thought to be equally matched technical traders?

Well, both do have a tremendous amount of research, testing, analysis, verification, design, development, engineering and implementation of their respective systems under their belts. No doubt, they both worked very hard in developing their systems. However, like all human beings, some of us do things a little bit different.

You see, when Earl was conducting all of his back testing, he did the same thing that Jane did. They both tracked the MFE/MAE ratio in their back testing. However, when Earl, set-up his forward testbed, he dropped the MFE/MAE ratio capture, so only Jane was getting that performance data.

Well, when you dump both Earl's and Jane's order history into Excel and you analyze the Stop/Limit locations on all of their trades, something starts to stick out like a sore thumb. When Earl was conducting his back testing, he used a different Stop Level for each of the different trade types that he made, that were based on his pain tolerance threshold (how many times have we heard that). Earl, also used a different Limit Level that had to do with his "feelings" about how much he should be making as a trader.

But, when we look at Jane's performance, we can clearly see that she used a Stop Level that was a percentage (%) of the high range of the back tested MAE and the forward tested MAE. Jane also adjusted her Limit Level, using a similar algorithm based on both the back tested and forward tested MFE data.

Fewer of Jane's trades got stopped out and more of limit levels got struck, while more of Earl's stops got hit and fewer of his limit ever came to fruition.

Both people were very capable traders. Both people put in the same amount of time, hard work and dedication. Yet, only one managed to figured out the importance of using a Stop and a Limit, that conformed to the market's technical tendencies, as opposed to how they felt about the trade, their tolerance for "pain" and how much the thought they should be making as a trader.

Moral of the story?

We spend so much time searching for that 100% perfect system, that we often times forget about the natural tendencies and dynamics of the market in relationship to the trades we make and our reason for being in the business in the first place - which is to walk away from every trade with profit that is inline with what the market will yield.

Jane, is on her way to becoming a full-time trader, while her counterpart who was every bit her equal, will probably blow his remaining $5k, less than a month later.

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  #287 (permalink)
 Silver Dragon 
Legendary Data Wizard!!!
Cincinnati Ohio
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TastyWorks
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JetTrader View Post

But, when we look at Jane's performance, we can clearly see that she used a Stop Level that was a percentage (%) of the high range of the back tested MAE and the forward tested MAE. Jane also adjusted her Limit Level, using a similar algorithm based on both the back tested and forward tested MFE data.

JetTrader,

Can you give a example of how this algorythm would work?

Thanks!
SD

nosce te ipsum

You make your own opportunities in life.
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  #288 (permalink)
 gg80108 
Castle Pines N, CO.
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Amp Futures/Zen-Fire)
Trading: ES
 
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Heard a very few advocate Position Sizing, risk control is the real “Holy Grail" in speculating..
Which translates to more small losers and a few big winners.......... Could this be the real thing???

I once saw a demo that trades were taken randomly but with " proper" money management,, u still did not get killed (but don't know if this was just a product of randomness, good luck, etc).......

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  #289 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
Site Administrator
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Data Scientist & DevOps
Manta, Ecuador
 
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gg80108 View Post
I once saw a demo that trades were taken randomly but with " proper" money management,, u still did not get killed (but don't know if this was just a product of randomness, good luck, etc).......

You might check here for fun:



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  #290 (permalink)
Richy1985
Trowbridge
 
 
Posts: 1 since Jul 2011
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Hi All,

Brand new here, just wanted to add my two cents.

The way I see it, all you need to be successful is a system with an edge (a positive expectancy) that addresses money management, and that fits well with YOUR attitude to risk, your account size and trading goals.

Then it becomes "95% psychological".

Just my opinion of what I think it takes to succeed.

Regarding taking advice from someone who is "below" you or who is a newbie - well, you wouldn't of wanted to of dismissed that person's advice if he was Warran Buffet just starting out in his career!

That newbie may possess knowledge and education that is superior to yours, so it's not wize to dismiss someone just because you've been in the trading game for a longer period of time.


Rich

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  #291 (permalink)
 gg80108 
Castle Pines N, CO.
 
Experience: Advanced
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Trading: ES
 
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Richy1985 View Post
Hi All,

Brand new here, just wanted to add my two cents.

The way I see it, all you need to be successful is a system with an edge (a positive expectancy) that addresses money management, and that fits well with YOUR attitude to risk, your account size and trading goals.

Then it becomes "95% psychological".

Just my opinion of what I think it takes to succeed.

Regarding taking advice from someone who is "below" you or who is a newbie - well, you wouldn't of wanted to of dismissed that person's advice if he was Warran Buffet just starting out in his career!

That newbie may possess knowledge and education that is superior to yours, so it's not wize to dismiss someone just because you've been in the trading game for a longer period of time.


Rich

That psychological stuff is tough and is different when u have ur money/ego on the line..
"Everybody's got plans... until they get hit".. No amount of simulation can duplicate that moment of truth and the agony of defeat. Its how one recovers from the failures, if u can, to stay in the game..

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  #292 (permalink)
 loriley 
Udon Thani Thailand
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja trader
Broker: Zen Fire
Trading: CL FDAX 6E 6B 6A 6N TF GC SI
 
Posts: 10 since Jun 2010
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I,m one of those traders that are making what some would call big money from trading, $8215 gross profit last week, $7000 the week before, these are average weeks. Here are my broker statements for last week.
& yes I,m consistant only one losing day in the last six weeks.
Please don,t PM me & ask for my method , even if I gave it away most people would still loose money with it
because it requires you to know how to trade. That means knowing your instrument , knowing what the average daily ranges are & knowing when it is likely to turn. I use indicators , price action & divergence all together.
Some of the indicators on big mkes are great so don,t rubbish them they do help me make money. The price action swing indictor is good especially the ABC patterns it prnts., jeffs cci, is great for trend continuation longs,
after the zero line cross. Feltons indicators are good for divergence counter trend setups. Some of the pivot indicators are helpful.
I spent over 6000 hours before I became consistant, confident & the fear went away.
I offer this as inspiration to keep going forward & learning to struggling traders, many nasayers told me to
give up & quit in the first 3 years. I always believed I would make it. I,m a believer in you get what you expect.
So expect you will make it , hold the thought, hold the dream & keep praticing in sim & market replay over & over
untill you prove to yourself that you have the skill to make it as a trader. Good luck to all regards LOR.

Attached Thumbnails
Primary source of income: how many have made it?-scan0010.pdf   Primary source of income: how many have made it?-scan0011.pdf   Primary source of income: how many have made it?-scan0012.pdf   Primary source of income: how many have made it?-scan0013.pdf   Primary source of income: how many have made it?-scan0014.pdf   Primary source of income: how many have made it?-scan0015.pdf   Primary source of income: how many have made it?-scan0016.pdf   Primary source of income: how many have made it?-scan0017.pdf   Primary source of income: how many have made it?-scan0018.pdf   Primary source of income: how many have made it?-scan0019.pdf  

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  #293 (permalink)
 bobbyacim 
new york
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: ninjatrader
Broker: mb trading
Trading: 6e
 
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loriley View Post
I,m one of those traders that are making what some would call big money from trading, $8215 gross profit last week, $7000 the week before, these are average weeks. Here are my broker statements for last week.
& yes I,m consistant only one losing day in the last six weeks.
Please don,t PM me & ask for my method , even if I gave it away most people would still loose money with it
because it requires you to know how to trade. That means knowing your instrument , knowing what the average daily ranges are & knowing when it is likely to turn. I use indicators , price action & divergence all together.
Some of the indicators on big mkes are great so don,t rubbish them they do help me make money. The price action swing indictor is good especially the ABC patterns it prnts., jeffs cci, is great for trend continuation longs,
after the zero line cross. Feltons indicators are good for divergence counter trend setups. Some of the pivot indicators are helpful.
I spent over 6000 hours before I became consistant, confident & the fear went away.
I offer this as inspiration to keep going forward & learning to struggling traders, many nasayers told me to
give up & quit in the first 3 years. I always believed I would make it. I,m a believer in you get what you expect.
So expect you will make it , hold the thought, hold the dream & keep praticing in sim & market replay over & over
untill you prove to yourself that you have the skill to make it as a trader. Good luck to all regards LOR.

Dear Loriley,

I am on cloud 9 level SHOCK at what I am seeing.
Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!!!!!!!!
For the longest time I have been searching for validation/confirmation that THIS CAN BE DONE!

So much so that I had a thread called "ten-thousand in education and still not profitable" over 10,000 saw it and no one could produce the kind of evidence that you just have!!!!!
To it I have started " ten thousand in education finally paying off" however I have not really been able to OWN this statement as of YET.

I have 6 years/5000 hours at this, tried every ebook, system, course, trading room I could think of. Diveregnce was the only thing that I could count on, but alas, I could not maintain the precision it requires to make it a profitable play.


Loriley, this is one human being that will forever be in your debt for illuminating the overhang of dispair with concrete, evidence based proof that THIS IS REALLY AND TRUELY DO-ABLE!!!!!

I am going to make your broker statements my wallpaper on my PC !!!!!!!!!

Sincerely in awe,

bobbyacim

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  #294 (permalink)
 bluemele 
Honolulu, Hawaii
 
Experience: Intermediate
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loriley View Post
I,m one of those traders that are making what some would call big money from trading, $8215 gross profit last week, $7000 the week before, these are average weeks. Here are my broker statements for last week.
& yes I,m consistant only one losing day in the last six weeks.
Please don,t PM me & ask for my method , even if I gave it away most people would still loose money with it
because it requires you to know how to trade. That means knowing your instrument , knowing what the average daily ranges are & knowing when it is likely to turn. I use indicators , price action & divergence all together.
Some of the indicators on big mkes are great so don,t rubbish them they do help me make money. The price action swing indictor is good especially the ABC patterns it prnts., jeffs cci, is great for trend continuation longs,
after the zero line cross. Feltons indicators are good for divergence counter trend setups. Some of the pivot indicators are helpful.
I spent over 6000 hours before I became consistant, confident & the fear went away.
I offer this as inspiration to keep going forward & learning to struggling traders, many nasayers told me to
give up & quit in the first 3 years. I always believed I would make it. I,m a believer in you get what you expect.
So expect you will make it , hold the thought, hold the dream & keep praticing in sim & market replay over & over
untill you prove to yourself that you have the skill to make it as a trader. Good luck to all regards LOR.

Well, BRAVO Loriley! Now, why in the WORLD is this such a rare feat and you are the only one to post this? (not a question for you specifically Loriley)

Why is what you did so hard to do? Why why why? That is the amazing thing to me, not your statement (which is great) but why so few wish to help show the mountain top. I find that amazing in its own right, more-so than a profitable trader actually making money and not just doing it to sell something......

Wow...

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  #295 (permalink)
 monpere 
Bala, PA, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
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bluemele View Post
Well, BRAVO Loriley! Now, why in the WORLD is this such a rare feat and you are the only one to post this? (not a question for you specifically Loriley)

Why is what you did so hard to do? Why why why? That is the amazing thing to me, not your statement (which is great) but why so few wish to help show the mountain top. I find that amazing in its own right, more-so than a profitable trader actually making money and not just doing it to sell something......

Wow...

Yes, it's great that the poster is making money... but how exactly does that help you? Will looking at those statements help you win your next 5 trades?

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  #296 (permalink)
Breconeer
Hereford UK
 
 
Posts: 9 since Jul 2011
Thanks: 4 given, 9 received

Gave up paid employment Xmas 1997. Previously traded intermittently for several years, during which I studied tutorial after tutorial (free online ones) to find what approaches suited me best.

Now into Year 14. Better than any proper job I ever had.

Having found I could make a living without being sat at the desk day in day out, I trade actively for 4 months each year (the darker colder months, Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb) and only occasionally during the other 8 months when life takes priority. I trade small/medium UK stocks only - previously via conventional buy/sell through online broker accounts, but in recent years mostly via online spreadbetting the same stocks instead.

I utilise trailing stoplosses. I bet both upward and downward, and I actively adjust my stakes. Positions mostly quarterly but some same-day ones, sometimes for minutes or hours, sometimes days or weeks.

I occasionally dabble in 5-minute binary bets on indices (despite the ridiculous buy/sell spread percentage). But not with serious money (and not recommended).

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  #297 (permalink)
 bluemele 
Honolulu, Hawaii
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: ATC/TT, AMP/Zen-Fire, AMP/CQG
Trading: TF
 
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monpere View Post
Yes, it's great that the poster is making money... but how exactly does that help you? Will looking at those statements help you win your next 5 trades?

We are all not the same. Some are motivated by sex, drugs, ego, etc..

Some don't believe money is important, some believe socialism is good.

Some learn to golf by doing, others by reading or both.

For me in a world of so many bullshit artists, this is a good sign. It inspires me to be a better trader, much like watching a surfing, snowboarding, skydiving video will inspire me to be a bit better at those things as well.

You may or may not be an athlete or an artist (I don't know) but before you perform, watch the best in the world and it will make you better, well, at least I have seen that done.

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  #298 (permalink)
 gg80108 
Castle Pines N, CO.
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: Amp Futures/Zen-Fire)
Trading: ES
 
Posts: 201 since Jul 2009
Thanks: 196 given, 130 received

Notice u had multi instruments traded.. Was this part of the profitability formula?, rather then watching one instrument and taking some mediocre trades,, but cherry pick for the best setups?

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  #299 (permalink)
 Surly 
denver, colorado
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT
Trading: ZS
 
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bluemele View Post
Well, BRAVO Loriley! Now, why in the WORLD is this such a rare feat and you are the only one to post this? (not a question for you specifically Loriley)

Why is what you did so hard to do? Why why why?

I have thought a lot about whether to give my answer to this question. I am going to do it but please realize that I don't want to be critical and that I am giving my answer to offer one opinion on why there weren't more successful traders forthcoming with the information loriley was so gracious to post. I only suggest this because I know there are many profitable traders on this forum who have very likely decided not to post, possibly for the reason I suggest below.

The reason as I see it (and I've thought this for quite some time while reading this interesting thread) is that the folks who are asking for hard proof and also complaining that such proof has not been offered up have come across as very aggressive and "whiney". I'm being honest here - if I had a friend who offered up the sour grapes about "prove it to me, prove it to me" like has been done in this thread (and other places on this great forum) I wouldn't be inclined to help them in the least. Frankly I would be (am) repulsed by it. It is clear that many have suffered on this long hard road of trading and it is also clear that there have been genuine attempts to help those suffering and genuine sympathy all on this thread. I'm just voicing my opinion about why the proof has not been forthcoming as bluemele has asked no less than 5 times in the few short sentences I quoted above.

If this post is too rude for this forum, please let me know and I'll delete it in an instant as I have infinite respect for this forum and all its participants and don't want to cause a problem.

surly

Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty. - Frank Herbert
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  #300 (permalink)
 bluemele 
Honolulu, Hawaii
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker: ATC/TT, AMP/Zen-Fire, AMP/CQG
Trading: TF
 
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Surly View Post
I have thought a lot about whether to give my answer to this question. I am going to do it but please realize that I don't want to be critical and that I am giving my answer to offer one opinion on why there weren't more successful traders forthcoming with the information loriley was so gracious to post.

The reason as I see it (and I've thought this for quite some time while reading this interesting thread) is that the folks who are asking for hard proof and also complaining that such proof has not been offered up have come across as complete douchebags. I'm being honest here - if I had a friend who offered up the sour grapes about "prove it to me, prove it to me" like has been done in this thread (and other places on this great forum) I wouldn't be inclined to help them in the least. Please also realize that I'm not suggesting that anyone IS a douchebag - just that this is how the complainers on this thread have come across to me personally. It is clear that many have suffered on this long hard road of trading and it is also clear that there have been genuine attempts to help those suffering and genuine sympathy all on this thread. I'm just voicing my opinion about why the proof has not been forthcoming as bluemele has asked no less than 5 times in the few short sentences I quoted above.

If this post is too rude for this forum, please let me know and I'll delete it in an instant as I have infinite respect for this forum and all its participants and don't want to cause a problem.

surly

Yes, great excuse...

Not a great one, but could be one.

Calling someone a bag used to flush fluids from an orifice is seemingly offensive. I disagree that people are that, but they have mental blocks that keep them from accepting anything.

This is the only field I have ever seen where profitability is so hard to prove. Although, CTA's have no problems when managing others and it is all documented. I am a big fan of myfxbook.com as there is no smoking mirrors and ways to really scam the system unless you are incahoots with the broker which a few guys have proven.

If someone tells me they can shoot a -5 on a golf course, I most likely believe them. However, I don't mind watching them or seeing certified score card if my intent is to get better by watching them. If I don't care and don't want to watch them, then no harm, no foul, move on.

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