Account blown up - Psychology and Money Management | futures io social day trading
futures io futures trading


Account blown up
Updated: Views / Replies:17,838 / 155
Created: by Big Mike Attachments:2

Welcome to futures io.

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

futures io is the largest futures trading community on the planet, with over 90,000 members. At futures io, our goal has always been and always will be to create a friendly, positive, forward-thinking community where members can openly share and discuss everything the world of trading has to offer. The community is one of the friendliest you will find on any subject, with members going out of their way to help others. Some of the primary differences between futures io and other trading sites revolve around the standards of our community. Those standards include a code of conduct for our members, as well as extremely high standards that govern which partners we do business with, and which products or services we recommend to our members.

At futures io, our focus is on quality education. No hype, gimmicks, or secret sauce. The truth is: trading is hard. To succeed, you need to surround yourself with the right support system, educational content, and trading mentors Ė all of which you can find on futures io, utilizing our social trading environment.

With futures io, you can find honest trading reviews on brokers, trading rooms, indicator packages, trading strategies, and much more. Our trading review process is highly moderated to ensure that only genuine users are allowed, so you donít need to worry about fake reviews.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading sites:
  • We are here to help. Just let us know what you need.
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive in our community.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, we can help you find it.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.

You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

Reply
 2  
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

Account blown up

  #51 (permalink)
Elite Member
New York, New Jersey/USA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
Seahn's Avatar
 
Posts: 157 since Jan 2013
Thanks: 60 given, 250 received


Skinchin View Post
Just to buck the trend.. I spent 2.5 years on sim and made money then made the jump to live almost a year ago and I have made more money live than sim.
I think sim is vital in any trader's journey and don't completely agree with the sentiment that it is a massive difference from live.
I do agree that it is not the be all and the end all but you can trade the same as sim with the right method and psychology.

The big problem with SIM vs LIVE is people that are really too under capitalized start trading SIM and do well. But when they go live inevitably the psychology of fear kicks in, they are afraid to lose money so start to exit early or skip setups due to fear.

Or they trade 10 lots in SIM while having a $10K real account and again inevitably go live and wipe out.

The key really is to trade small enough or with an account big enough so that they are in the "I don't care" zone when dealing with losses. Only then will SIM come remotely close to LIVE and have any value as a learning tool.

Reply With Quote
The following 6 users say Thank You to Seahn for this post:
 
  #52 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Philadelphia, PA
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: MetaTrader, ThinkorSwim
Broker/Data: TDAmeritrade, Oanda, FXCM
Favorite Futures: Forex, Futures
 
Posts: 19 since Mar 2015
Thanks: 8 given, 34 received


Seahn View Post
The big problem with SIM vs LIVE is people that are really too under capitalized start trading SIM and do well. But when they go live inevitably the psychology of fear kicks in, they are afraid to lose money so start to exit early or skip setups due to fear.

Or they trade 10 lots in SIM while having a $10K real account and again inevitably go live and wipe out.

The key really is to trade small enough or with an account big enough so that they are in the "I don't care" zone when dealing with losses. Only then will SIM come remotely close to LIVE and have any value as a learning tool.

Agree... one of the things that helped me the most as I became profitable was the confidence I built by SLOWLY increasing my size so that I had time to psychologically adjust to the size of my losses. I trend follow in my long-term trading, so there are A LOT of losses. There are months now where I lose more money than I make working my full-time job... but it doesn't effect me because I got there SLOWLY.

If you're new and you think you want to risk 1 or 2%, here's some advice... start at 1/10 that amount to let yourself become accustomed to the dollar size of the loss... then once you're OK, step up a little bigger. Repeat until you're (un)comfortable and then comfortable.

Don't think about how much you can WIN, think about how much you can LOSE.

Jim


Last edited by JerseyJim; March 25th, 2015 at 07:15 PM. Reason: clarity
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users say Thank You to JerseyJim for this post:
 
  #53 (permalink)
Elite Member
Baltimore Maryland/United States
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Custom
Broker/Data: IB
Favorite Futures: Asian Stocks / Indexes
 
Branzol's Avatar
 
Posts: 39 since May 2014
Thanks: 43 given, 60 received


Biggest thing I experienced going from SIM to REAL was the fact fills in SIM are no where near how they work in real life.

Examples:

Stop-Loss on Simulation: On simulation you can set your Stop-loss the market hit's it and your trade is closed out. Don't we all wish this is how it really happened?

Stop-Loss on Real Trades: I've had Stop-losses set and Market momentum drive right through my price point and fill 20 ticks away in the past. It's the nature of the beast especially on high volatility instruments. I've had it happen to a lesser degree on some of the calmer instruments.

Limit Order on Simulation: You can set limit orders on simulation, and when the market comes to that price point your filled near instantly. Again this is nowhere near how it happens in real trading.

Limit Order on Real Trades: You have to set your order many price points in advance to get a near instant fill on a limit order when the market hits your price point. Again it will depend on the instrument and liquidity in that instrument. But I've had to place orders 6-8 ticks out thinking ahead to ensure I had a order that was first in the batch to be filled. Simulation cannot teach you these things. I've also had Take-Profit orders hit there price point, not fill go back down and turn into losing trades. I've since solved that by other means as back up protection to juts a TP order.

There are many other examples, but those are the two basic ones. Pretty much the concept you need to grasp is your fills on simulation are instant. In the real world they are not! My suggest to anyone who's been trading SIM is try a few trades on a micro future like m6e and just sorta start to grasp how the fills occur. Only reason I suggest M6E is the capital involved to place a contract is low, as is the dollar amount per tick.


Last edited by Branzol; March 25th, 2015 at 05:34 PM. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users say Thank You to Branzol for this post:
 
  #54 (permalink)
Site Administrator
Manta, Ecuador
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: My own custom solution
Favorite Futures: E-mini ES S&P 500
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Posts: 46,240 since Jun 2009
Thanks: 29,357 given, 83,237 received


Seahn View Post
Or they trade 10 lots in SIM while having a $10K real account and again inevitably go live and wipe out.

This is true, but I think an even bigger problem is while trading in sim people go through hundreds of iterations of a "system", constantly changing things, and never really learning anything about the market itself. They are so focused on "signals" from their system and risk avoidance they never actually educate themselves as to why markets move and how to capture those moves.

I feel like you must actually have skin in the game before that part of your brain takes over and the real learning begins.

Mike

Due to time constraints, please do not PM me if your question can be resolved or answered on the forum.

Need help?
1) Stop changing things. No new indicators, charts, or methods. Be consistent with what is in front of you first.
2) Start a journal and post to it daily with the trades you made to show your strengths and weaknesses.
3) Set goals for yourself to reach daily. Make them about how you trade, not how much money you make.
4) Accept responsibility for your actions. Stop looking elsewhere to explain away poor performance.
5) Where to start as a trader? Watch this webinar and read this thread for hundreds of questions and answers.
6)
Help using the forum? Watch this video to learn general tips on using the site.

If you want
to support our community, become an Elite Member.

Reply With Quote
The following 11 users say Thank You to Big Mike for this post:
 
  #55 (permalink)
Elite Member
Washington DC
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: TradeStation and Sierra
Broker/Data: TradeStation/S5Trading
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
Investorito's Avatar
 
Posts: 54 since Dec 2010
Thanks: 298 given, 60 received

Timely Post

First off, thank you guys I needed this post. I started trading live 2 months ago and I haven't blown my account yet, but I am getting close of not being able to cover my margin costs for the instruments I trade (futures). I sim traded for a week and quickly realized that it wasn't for me. Not saying there is no value, I just didn't get vested enough to care for the trades. I ended taking trades without thinking, changing my entry rules, putting abnormal stops (stops I wouldn't risk with real cash), not logging my entries, etc.

As of right now, I'm focusing on biggest hurdle; state of mind/psycology. It really sucks to lose, and it sucks even more to lose again. And now, I need to find a way to stop the snowball effect of making terrible decisions and not being able to focus because I... well... feel like a loser. I believe that in order "to trade like a pro I should learn how to lose like a pro", so I'll resume my trading once I've made my peace with it. But as of today, it still sucks. Would've been able to understand and deal the state of mind that I am in by reading books or sim trading? I don't think so, not me.

Back to the original topic of blowing a real account, is it really necessary? I hope not, but I haven't met a successful trader that haven't blown one or two. If it is really necessary, then I am sure taking the right steps towards becoming a successful trader.

Reply With Quote
The following 5 users say Thank You to Investorito for this post:
 
  #56 (permalink)
Elite Member
Philadelphia
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: corded black telephone
Favorite Futures: ticker tape
 
Itchymoku's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,892 since Apr 2012
Thanks: 1,681 given, 3,622 received

The Tortoise and the Hare

Blowing up is never good, but doing it over a long period of time might allow the trader more time to learn where they're going wrong.

Only two things will shorten that window of time:

1. revenge trading / over trading.
2. increasing trading size.

In my opinion, if anyone is blowing up they should really slow down and study their trades.

It's not a race, it's a marathon. Turtle wins this race.


Last edited by Itchymoku; March 25th, 2015 at 05:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
The following 11 users say Thank You to Itchymoku for this post:
 
  #57 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Philadelphia, PA
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: MetaTrader, ThinkorSwim
Broker/Data: TDAmeritrade, Oanda, FXCM
Favorite Futures: Forex, Futures
 
Posts: 19 since Mar 2015
Thanks: 8 given, 34 received


GeekyTrader View Post
First off, thank you guys I needed this post. I started trading live 2 months ago and I haven't blown my account yet, but I am getting close of not being able to cover my margin costs for the instruments I trade (futures). I sim traded for a week and quickly realized that it wasn't for me. Not saying there is no value, I just didn't get vested enough to care for the trades. I ended taking trades without thinking, changing my entry rules, putting abnormal stops (stops I wouldn't risk with real cash), not logging my entries, etc.

As of right now, I'm focusing on biggest hurdle; state of mind/psycology. It really sucks to lose, and it sucks even more to lose again. And now, I need to find a way to stop the snowball effect of making terrible decisions and not being able to focus because I... well... feel like a loser. I believe that in order "to trade like a pro I should learn how to lose like a pro", so I'll resume my trading once I've made my peace with it. But as of today, it still sucks. Would've been able to understand and deal the state of mind that I am in by reading books or sim trading? I don't think so, not me.

Back to the original topic of blowing a real account, is it really necessary? I hope not, but I haven't met a successful trader that haven't blown one or two. If it is really necessary, then I am sure taking the right steps towards becoming a successful trader.

Blowing up an account (no matter how large or small) isn't necessary to become successful, but what it has a tendency to do is smack you upside the head with reality. It also seems to separate the pretenders from the contenders.

If you're willing to assess the damages after blowing up, then regroup and come back to attack with the new knowledge gained, you're on your way. There's no guarantee of success, but you're a step closer than you were before. Like the old proverb says, "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step". I also like "A man who wishes to travel a hundred miles should consider himself halfway at 90 miles."

Just ask yourself the hard questions... are you willing to commit the time (and money) that this will take to succeed? Look at it like any other profession... you need years of dedication and experience to become successful... and even then it still doesn't happen for everyone.

Jim

Reply With Quote
The following 8 users say Thank You to JerseyJim for this post:
 
  #58 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Bocas Del Toro, Panama
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: CL & NG
 
Posts: 32 since Sep 2012
Thanks: 44 given, 32 received


Big Mike View Post

I feel like you must actually have skin in the game before that part of your brain takes over and the real learning begins.

Mike

Agreed.. When I switched to Sim I already had 'skin in the game' after blowing a couple of small accounts a couple of years earlier, so I took Sim very seriously to the point where it felt and hurt as much as real money. Had I started with Sim then gone live it would have been a different story.
It's true that fills aren't the same but it is possible to trade well in Sim and maintain the same discipline and psychology live. Although not common, it is possible, which is the point I was trying to make.
After all, losses are just a cost of business and money is a byproduct of good trading.

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users say Thank You to Skinchin for this post:
 
  #59 (permalink)
Elite Member
Neuwied Germany
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader 7
Broker/Data: AMP, CQG
Favorite Futures: Bund future
 
Posts: 712 since Jul 2013
Thanks: 2,104 given, 1,202 received

Anyone ever had these feelings?

I had and it only happens with live trading...to overcome this is a step forward...


Waiting, Discipline and Patience Pays!
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users say Thank You to pipandrun for this post:
 
  #60 (permalink)
Elite Member
Sydney, NSW, Australia
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra Chart, Python, C#
Broker/Data: Interactive Brokers
Favorite Futures: MJNK, ASX, SPI
 
Posts: 98 since Jan 2014
Thanks: 70 given, 113 received



pipandrun View Post
I had and it only happens with live trading...to overcome this is a step forward...

Oh wow yeah, that brought back a flush of memories

Reply With Quote

Reply



futures io > > > Account blown up

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)

Jigsaw Trading: TBA

Elite only

FuturesTrader71: TBA

Elite only

NinjaTrader: TBA

Jan 18

RandBots: TBA

Jan 23

GFF Brokers & CME Group: Futures & Bitcoin

Elite only

Adam Grimes: TBA

Elite only

Ran Aroussi: TBA

Elite only
     

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Blown off Futures Demo account. futurestrader7 NinjaTrader 4 February 25th, 2014 07:34 PM
Can I use a Ninja demo account to trade with a live web-based account? budfox NinjaTrader 23 July 16th, 2013 08:49 AM
paper account real account interactive brokers Mehdi IB Trader Workstation 15 January 6th, 2012 12:16 PM
BP Hopes to Keep Blown Well Capped, but US Cautious Quick Summary News and Current Events 0 July 18th, 2010 04:30 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:07 AM.

Copyright © 2017 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts
Page generated 2017-12-18 in 0.15 seconds with 20 queries on phoenix via your IP 54.226.113.250