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Account blown up
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Account blown up

  #31 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Boca Raton
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Variety
Broker/Data: Optimus Futures, LLC
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
mattz's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,059 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 1,933 given, 2,786 received
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nourozi View Post
Nothing you said negates what I said.

.....If you can't become a confident simulation trader, then you should not even think about going live.

What is a "confident sim trader"?. Please share.
Matt

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.
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  #32 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
New Zealand
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: ZB
 
Posts: 92 since Jun 2013
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mattz View Post
What is a "confident sim trader"?. Please share.
Matt

These are some qualities I believe someone should possess before trading a live account:
  • Someone who can write down their exact trading rules on a piece of paper and potentially automate their strategy if they wished.
  • Someone who has tested their rules in a real-time simulation environment for over 6 months and at least 1000 trades
  • Someone who is consistently profitable and has recorded all their results
  • Someone who knows what to expect from day to day, week to week and month to month based on their recorded results (e.g average weekly loss/profit, average drawdowns etc..).
  • Someone who is not risking capital which will affect their daily lives.
  • Someone who is not relying on their potential trading profits to live their lives.
  • Someone who is almost indifferent to their results and can handle a loss.

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  #33 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Boca Raton
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Variety
Broker/Data: Optimus Futures, LLC
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
mattz's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,059 since Sep 2010
Thanks: 1,933 given, 2,786 received
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nourozi View Post
These are some qualities I believe someone should possess before trading a live account:
  • Someone who can write down their exact trading rules on a piece of paper and potentially automate their strategy if they wished.
  • Someone who has tested their rules in a real-time simulation environment for over 6 months and at least 1000 trades
  • Someone who is consistently profitable and has recorded all their results
  • Someone who knows what to expect from day to day, week to week and month to month based on their recorded results (e.g average weekly loss/profit, average drawdowns etc..).
  • Someone who is not risking capital which will affect their daily lives.
  • Someone who is not relying on their potential trading profits to live their lives.
  • Someone who is almost indifferent to their results and can handle a loss.

honestly, this is a collection of a real funded trader, who has traded live funds for many years, especially the last point.
This is not a paper trader. Kindly, I wish to end it here.
Matt

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.
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  #34 (permalink)
Elite Member
Sydney, NSW, Australia
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra Chart, Python, C#
Broker/Data: Interactive Brokers
Favorite Futures: MJNK, ASX, SPI
 
Posts: 98 since Jan 2014
Thanks: 70 given, 113 received

Its been a great read in this thread so far!

I would not say I have "blown" an account in pure $ terms, but twice in my 20's I tried to day trade stocks and ended up with 'buy & hold'. (or bought & hope).

First instance I was just excited about the tech boom and I had friends making money (or so they said), I really didn't know anything and RSI/MACD was pretty cool!

Second attempt was a few years later, I had spent 6 months learning as much TA as I could, I thought I had it, and I wasn't going too bad, but really didn't have a concept of risk management or a predefined stop-loss, so when some trades went against me I just held & held waiting for them to come back.

Fast forward to the end of 2013 and I was interested in trading again, happened across this site and have now spent 1 1/2 years studying the content and webinars (I think even full time, it would take close to 6mths to get through everything in here).

So thankfully I have been spared many of the trials of others learning through their experiences. I hate to think what I would have done with leveraged investments the first two times around...


Last edited by amoeba; March 25th, 2015 at 12:45 AM. Reason: Typo
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  #35 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
New York
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: AMP/CQG
Favorite Futures: ES
 
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Posts: 22 since Mar 2012
Thanks: 3 given, 27 received

Had blown my Lind-Waldock account trading commodities futures way back in 1998. Was a few years out of college and working at the operations group of a foreign investment bank. Basically, had a lot of free time, so started swing trading in Swiss Franc, pork bellies, live cattle, corn, etc. using some indicators I bought from some chart data provider.

It was all luck and no skills. This was how naive I was back then. I'd entered into a long position in the Swiss Franc a few hours before I left work. Planned to close the position the next morning for a quick profit. After I'd finished my reports the next morning, I checked the Swiss Franc 5 minute chart on the Bloomberg Terminal. I was perplexed/surprised that there were bars painted from 4:01PM the prior day to 9:29AM the current day. I thought the markets were closed during that time frame. Luckily, the trade ended in a profit.

Over a couple of months, I was able to increase my account from the initial $10k to about $15k, before greed and overconfidence did me in. One morning, after I'd finished my usual morning reports, I checked the live cattle chart and decided to go long. However, instead of the usual 2 contracts, I went in with 5. I got in at around 10:00AM. A few minutes later, my account was up to $17k (+$2k on the trade). Nature called, so went to the restroom to take a leak. Returned to my desk 5 minutes later and saw my account balance had dropped to $15.5k. I literally pissed away $1.5k. Should have bailed and taken the +$500, but didn't. Hoped to close the trade, once it goes back to +$2k again. Account now at $14.5k. Should have bailed and taken the -$500, but didn't. Hoped to close the trade, once it goes anywhere near positive. Account now at $13k. I couldn't believe it. The trade went from +$2k to -$2k in about 10 minutes.

Decided to average down with 5 more contracts, then minimized my trading screen and walked away (did some actual work). Got a margin phone call later in the day from my broker closing my cattle positions. A few weeks later, I closed my account with about $1.5k left.

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  #36 (permalink)
Elite Member
Dallas, Texas
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TOS
Favorite Futures: AAPL, /ES, IWM, SPY Options
 
Posts: 208 since Oct 2012
Thanks: 440 given, 101 received


nourozi View Post
Nothing you said negates what I said.

Of course, if you have live trading experience, you are going to treat simulation differently than someone who has never been live. The point is, even if you are already a live trader, or you are just starting out, the safest and best way to test new ideas is in a simulation environment without risk of real financial loss.

Once you have tested ideas in simulation and are comfortable with the results, then feel free to go live and follow your plan. If you can't become a confident simulation trader, then you should not even think about going live.

Agree with that, especially on longer term trades and options. Simulation, paper trading on TOS, lets someone see what type of risk is involved and how to react and roll options. Paper trading has definitely helped and I probably would have blown my account (since 2005) without it.

I don't know of Sim would help with trading futures intra-day though, faster trading, unrealistic fills, and the emotional roller coaster involve in intra-day trading.

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  #37 (permalink)
Elite Member
Dallas, Texas
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TOS
Favorite Futures: AAPL, /ES, IWM, SPY Options
 
Posts: 208 since Oct 2012
Thanks: 440 given, 101 received


mattz View Post
I am happy for your success! however, I think that your success is also attributed to the fact that you are very structured person. Also, I think you are a competitive person by nature, and that is where you pick up and do not repeat the mistakes of others. Trading is a competitive sport, and in winning you do take advantage of your opponents weaknesses. This is not only an analytical game done with latte, recognizing patterns, but having the ability to see market action and reaction, volume price relationships, etc.

You shared your opinions about paper trading, and I totally agree. Sadly, when I said that to many others out there, they thought it was attributed to my occupation and compensation. Not only that paper trading does not lend to testing real methodologies in the market place, but there is an entire industry out there who wants to sell you what you are "missing". So you end up buying another indicator and/or software that will not solve all your problems in real life.

Your growth as a trader on futures.io (formerly BMT) is also reflected in the growth of this forum to encompass technical aspects, methodologies and finally reflect what it takes to be a trader. To many more successful years!

Matt

There is a SUBSTANTIAL risk of loss in futures trading.

Just curious who are these opponents?

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  #38 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
New Zealand
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: ZB
 
Posts: 92 since Jun 2013
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blb014 View Post
Just curious who are these opponents?

Every other trader in the market you are trading. For every win, there is a loss.

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  #39 (permalink)
Elite Member
Dallas, Texas
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TOS
Favorite Futures: AAPL, /ES, IWM, SPY Options
 
Posts: 208 since Oct 2012
Thanks: 440 given, 101 received


nourozi View Post
Every other trader in the market you are trading. For every win, there is a loss.


Not exactly that simple though. Who knows the reasoning behind a retail, institutional, or hedge fund trades. Maybe the contract or share traded was a win-win for both parties involved.

Just my personal opinion from mentoring a few individuals over the years. The only trades someone can control are their own, and the mindset of trading and investing as a competition is destructive for someone new to the market. They focus on other traders and investor results and when they can't emulate those results they either blow up an account or just quit from frustration.

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  #40 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
New Zealand
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: ZB
 
Posts: 92 since Jun 2013
Thanks: 52 given, 29 received



blb014 View Post
Not exactly that simple though. Who knows the reasoning behind a retail, institutional, or hedge fund trades. Maybe the contract or share traded was a win-win for both parties involved.

Just my personal opinion from mentoring a few individuals over the years. The only trades someone can control are their own, and the mindset of trading and investing as a competition is destructive for someone new to the market. They focus on other traders and investor results and when they can't emulate those results they either blow up an account or just quit from frustration.

Yea, I didn't mean it literally. The trader you traded with could also be profitable. You don't buy and sell from the exact same trader. You buy from one, and sell to another. Hence, your trade being profitable does not rely on the other traders trade being at a loss.

BUT, considering the % of players who are long term profitable, It's more like for every win, there are 5 losses...

Anyway, that's another thread.

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